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Silicon Knights Files Lawsuit Against Epic

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Penzer
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Penzer polycounter lvl 17
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759

Saw this on Joystiq, heres the Gamasutra link. Thoughts? I've never heard of developers suing over tools or engines before, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I'm hoping I'm not ignorant, but has this sort of thing ever happened before?

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  • Tulkamir
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    Tulkamir polycounter lvl 18
    Wow, sounds like it could be bad for Epic. I've been hearing that a lot of companies have been having troubles getting proper support out of them.

    Be interesting to see how this pans out and what kind of effects it has.
  • McIlroy
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    McIlroy polycounter lvl 17
    I really hope for Epic that these claims are not true . There are many many good game engines out there now . This would not only hurt there current business but future efforts would be seriously affected if not completely abandoned .
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    Hmm... SK wants Epic to disgorge all profits from Gears of War. Did I read that right?

    I don't know this is a touchy situation and it could be a very dirty fight. I have heard of a few studios complaining about Epic taking forever to get them a working Engine.
  • Jay Evans
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    Jay Evans polycounter lvl 18
    I have always thought it a bit strange that epic creates a great engine to license as well as pumping out awesome games. I would have thought by now, with the ton of companies using U3, that it would have been split off into another company. Isn’t that what people do in other industries to prevent this sort of conflict of interest type stuff? I’m no business major, so I really have no idea, but I would think in their current situation they would have to put their own games needs ahead of their licensees. Hope it all turns out well for both parties.
  • Lee3dee
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    Lee3dee polycounter lvl 18
    i just read the article on gamasutra, hope both companies will come to an agreement.
  • rawkstar
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    rawkstar polycounter lvl 19
    this really sounds like SK completely failing to make a good game and then looking for someone to lay the blame on. I'm pretty sure Too Human will never come out and they are now trying to cover their financial losses with that lawsuit...
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    [ QUOTE ]
    this really sounds like SK completely failing to make a good game and then looking for someone to lay the blame on. I'm pretty sure Too Human will never come out and they are now trying to cover their financial losses with that lawsuit...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is exactly what I thought by reading the article. Even more so after reading the part on SK not having to owe anything to Epic and be able to make any changes to the engine as they see fit without Epics permission and releasing a game.

    I am starting to feel that this game wont come out like Rawkstar said and that they are looking to point the finger and cover the losses. Really sad though if you think about it.

    I gotta agree with jay though about Epic maybe setting up a seperate division / studio for the engine development and support and one for game develoment.
  • SouL
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    SouL polycounter lvl 18
    Silicon Knight will have a strong case for them if it IS TRUE that Epic breached contractual agreements about delivery of their engine.
    At the end of the day, it's business. If someone you pay does not deliver what you paid for, you're pretty fucked. They have every right to sue.
    It'll be interesting if other development houses chime in and comment with their experiences regarding Epic and their support for their Engine.

    If I was SK, I would be frustrated as well. 6 months of not having anything functional to work on is nothing more than a HUGE, HUGE drain of funding.

    I wouldn't put the intentions of the lawsuit simply on the fact that "SK would have made a shitty game and that they're trying to get some money back."
    I think the one thing that will work against Epic is the statement about Gears of War for the 360. SK was supposedly to receive a functioning engine for the 360, but Epic never delivered. Yet during that time frame, they were able to put together Gears of War for the 360.

    It's the same as paying a contractor to build you a house in 7 months. Yet, 6 months down the road, there's nothing put up yet.
  • Delaney King
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    Delaney King polycounter lvl 18
    I would be buying shares in silicon knights right now.
  • KeyserSoze
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    KeyserSoze polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I have always thought it a bit strange that epic creates a great engine to license as well as pumping out awesome games.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's not that strange, is it? Most of the major engine licensors do it... Valve, id, Crytek, Epic, etc.
  • Jay Evans
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    Jay Evans polycounter lvl 18
    correct, I meant strange, just in the fact that Epics licensing has grown so large. I think there are 60 or so games in development using it. Most of the other ones mentioned have only a handful of companies using their engine.
  • Asmuel
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    Asmuel polycounter lvl 17
    A team of 80 to make to make two AAA titles, Develop UE3 and support all its licensees all at once, whilst probably working on UE4. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the allegations are true, sounds like they might be biting off more business then they can chew. My 2c, but I could be wrong.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    It's strange that companies license an engine in development from a company they view as a competitor, knowing Epic will produce successful titles with its own toolset. I hope I'm selected for jury duty on this one. ^_^
  • spacemonkey
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    spacemonkey polycounter lvl 18
    Tough situation.

    I'd love to comment on it but as part of a team, currently using the Unreal 3 engine I don't think I can.

    It is quite a sad situation to see in the industry, but I guess with big budgets there has to be accountability - which is obviously why this lawsuit was instigated.
  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 13
    [ QUOTE ]
    It's strange that companies license an engine in development from a company they view as a competitor, knowing Epic will produce successful titles with its own toolset. I hope I'm selected for jury duty on this one. ^_^

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It makes a certain amount of sense to license your engine to other companies if you've made a solid engine, as it helps defray the costs of building the engine in the first place.

    Likewise, it makes sense to license a powerful engine from a company in the same industry if it is cheap and well-supported, as it saves you the money and time required to build your own engine.

    The problem here lies in what appears to be Epic breaching their contract with SK and presumably other developers by not delivering their engine when they said they would. This would be easier to overlook and accept if it wasn't for the fact that Epic is in the same business as SK, and thats where the heart of the matter lies. SK is arguing that Epic purposefully delayed releasing their engine to the public, to give themselves more time to work with it, to make sure they were the first-to-market with a UE3 game (let's ignore Roboblitz because as a budget Live title that's not really the sort of competition that we're talking about here) and give them a competitive advantage. Meanwhile Epic is going to argue that they were delayed to development hiccups, problems introduced by Microsoft and Sony and other outlying factors.

    Unless you were actually on Epic's engine development team during that timeframe, you're not going to really know the whole truth of the matter, and unless you were a developer who was working closely with Epic to license the technology or at least consider licensing the technology you're not going to know that much about the matter outside of what SK and Epic claim, which are obviously going to conflict.

    Anyhow I hope this works out nicely, because I love the hell out of Epic but also thought Too Human sounded pretty cool because I'm a sucker for cyberpunk and Norse Mythology and it sounded like it was a neat combination of the two.
  • McIlroy
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    McIlroy polycounter lvl 17
    [ QUOTE ]
    Tough situation.

    I'd love to comment on it but as part of a team, currently using the Unreal 3 engine I don't think I can.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    I wish you could also . It is interesting to me that SK has not as far as we know joined up with other Unreal Licensee's
    to bring a civil suite against Epic and thus making a much more compelling case against epic . If what they are saying is t rue obviously other companies are suffering the same set backs and losses .
  • Penzer
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    Penzer polycounter lvl 17
    Update on Gamasutra, http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759

    More details at that link. Microsoft stated "Microsoft is not involved in or a party to this litigation, therefore has no comment."
  • Neo_God
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    Neo_God polycounter lvl 18
    Oh so now they're making their own engine...so we'll see this game in like what, 5 years maybe?
  • Slainean
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    Slainean polycounter lvl 18
    Hate to say it but I smelled disaster on this one as soon as I heard "trilogy" and "100 million dollar budgets".
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
    Tis a pity. the E3 trailer looked like it had a bit of potential.
  • Mark Dygert
    Wow something slipped past its ship date, that never happens in this industry. /rimshot
    Hopefully Epic didn't leave anyone to twist in the wind and the SK guys are just bitter about a bad E3 showing and lashing out. There is always next year.

    Who was stopping them from using assets they planned on using in game to make a pre-rendered "almost in-game like" trailer. no one said they had make a cinematic trailer using only U3.

    The trailer was pretty cliche, which didn't help. When are people going to realize that stretching slow-mo action scenes and ripping off anime from 1982 is past the point of getting old? It's like a hallmark of bad moments in movies/games. Maybe it was the story boarding that killed the trailer.
  • Hito
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    Hito interpolator
    Time wise what SK claims adds up as far as I can tell. but I'm only basing the time on my small time mod and game building experience. Things could be totally different with bigger teams and budgets.

    But Epic hasn't told their piece yet, so we'll just have to wait and see.
  • gauss
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    gauss polycounter lvl 18
    i'm of the mind that the Unreal engine now is one of the most widely licensed engines out there, and many many successful titles have been released on the 2 codebase and now plenty have arrived/will soon arrived based on UE3. maybe there's a special agreement to deliver features or what have you for SK, but if they're in the same boat as other licensees, then maybe this is a cash grab for a project that has been eating up a lot of time and money.
    after all, Too Human was originally a GC title, started back in '99... so we're looking at 8 years. what a nightmare.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    Yeah like I said it's hard to really know the details without being directly involved but since Gears of War there has been a few titles released using UE3. Rainbow Six Vegas came out shortly after Gears did so how did they get access to a working engine and get the game finished so quickly?

    That is the only thing that is bothering me and I never knew this but if what Gauss said was right about it being in development for 8 years. It just gets even uglier.
  • Hito
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    Hito interpolator
    Too Human started under Nintendo in 99 for PS, in 2000 it moved to GC, when it was last seen.

    Between 2000 and 2004 SK made Eternal Darkness, 6/02, and MGS: Twin Snakes for gamecube, released 3/04.

    Partnerships with Sega (unknown project) 3/05, and MS (Too Human) in 5/05.

    MS provides X360 SDK in 9/05; Epic provides UE3 for X360 in 3/06 (or failed to); SK shows Too Human 5/06 at E3'06; according to the gamasutra article quotes from the law suit claims.

    another year, building their own engine according to SK, the law suit 7/07
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    So when did they actually get the engine and when was this game supposed to ship?

    I mean you can build content, models, level designs without having the engine on hand and once you get the full engine implement everything you have.

    I don't know. I just know Epic is crazy busy with trying to finish up the games for themselves and giving support to it's licensees.
  • Hito
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    Hito interpolator
    "The final development kit for the Xbox 360 was released in early September, 2005, such that Epic was obligated to release the functional Engine for that platform no later than March, 2006. However, that deadline came and went without Epic providing Silicon Knights with a functional version of the Engine. Indeed, it was not until much later (November, 2006, far too late for time and cost-sensitive projects like SK’s videogames) that Epic ever provided anything resembling working Xbox 360 code to its licensees. Even at that belated date, though, Epic did not provide any guidance to licensees in how to implement the code it finally released."

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759
  • Toomas
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    Toomas polycounter lvl 18
    RB6 Vegas was on PC aswell so they might have done the PC version and port it over to 360 once they had the engine.
    It might smell like a way to salvage a failed project but i doubt Epic is ran by Mother Theresa either...
  • Mark Dygert
    Hardly making their own engine, more like stealing U3 tech.
    [ QUOTE ]
    (4) Silicon Knights may alter the Engine without restriction
    (7) the game engine developed by Silicon Knights is totally independent of the Unreal Engine 3 and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights, or, alternatively, the game engine developed by Silicon Knights constitutes an “Enhancement” under the terms of the Agreement, and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights under the terms of that Agreement

    [/ QUOTE ]These guys are looking more slip-shot by the minute. It sounds like these guys are trying to do what Valve did with Quake2. "We've changed it so much its no longer yours, YOINK!" The difference being that when valve did it, Quake2 was already old tech and they did massive changes. I doubt SK would change the code base as much as valve did.
  • TomDunne
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    TomDunne polycounter lvl 18
    Stealing it? Didn't they pay for it?
  • Mark Dygert
    If I read it correctly they are asking for that money back, and then some on top of that, along with the ability to use the engine to develop their own. It is my understanding that they can only own the enhancement not what the enhancement is based off of. What they are asking for is the whole thing. If I make a plug-in for Max I can sell and distribute that plug-in but I can't re-brand Max and sell the whole thing.

  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    You know, some of you are jumping to conclusions and saying it sounds like the game was shit and they were trying to recoop dev costs. What makes you jump to such conclusions with no real info? I'm no conspiracy theorist, but it seems like it could easily be a legitimate claim that Epic was moving slow with getting their engine out to developers so that they could advance their own projects and be first to the market, even possibly dominating their genre. Don't you think it's a bit lame that Epic licensed out their engine to tons of people, then instead of delivering their goods on a promised date they produce two AAA titles, releasing one already, while probably working on others? Obviously I don't know all of the facts either, but if SK's claims are true, I hope they get some kind of reimbursement.
  • Mark Dygert
    Wasn't what Microsoft released in 05 everything they needed to bring a game to the 360. But what they are fussing over is the code release that came after GoW? Which was just a bunch of improvements to the MS 05 release.

    I could be wrong.

    Sonic, 8 years of development costs and several engine changes... I'm not saying you don't have a point that Epic wanted to be first and the prettiest bell at the ball, but I'm pretty certain they delivered what they where contracted to do, deliver a 360 compatible version of the U3 engine.
  • StrangeFate
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    StrangeFate polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Wow something slipped past its ship date, that never happens in this industry. /rimshot

    [/ QUOTE ]
    It happens all the time as we all know, but do you know the consequences of that ?
    When a game is late, Publisher and developer HAVE to come to an agreement, either the publisher pays for that time, or in some cases, the developer does out of their own pocket.
    Either way, the two come to a mutual agreement.


    I think this can go both ways. It does read a bit like they're blaming Epic for their crappy game which may not get them much simpathy.
    I suppose that depending on how many other studios managed to have their stuff done and ready in time with what epic provided will tell whether SK will look incompetent to handle the technology or... are right.
  • AstroZombie
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    AstroZombie polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    If I read it correctly they are asking for that money back, and then some on top of that.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yea, they are asking for all of the profits from Gears as well. Why don't they just include a clause that Epic has to finish their game for them while they are at it?
  • SouL
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    SouL polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Hardly making their own engine, more like stealing U3 tech.
    [ QUOTE ]
    (4) Silicon Knights may alter the Engine without restriction
    (7) the game engine developed by Silicon Knights is totally independent of the Unreal Engine 3 and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights, or, alternatively, the game engine developed by Silicon Knights constitutes an “Enhancement” under the terms of the Agreement, and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights under the terms of that Agreement

    [/ QUOTE ]These guys are looking more slip-shot by the minute. It sounds like these guys are trying to do what Valve did with Quake2. "We've changed it so much its no longer yours, YOINK!" The difference being that when valve did it, Quake2 was already old tech and they did massive changes. I doubt SK would change the code base as much as valve did.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Even if SK is "stealing" they legally can because it's in the contractual agreement that Epic agreed to.
  • Penzer
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    Penzer polycounter lvl 17
    I just hope it goes through as smoothly and painlessly as possible for both studios. This definitely is a unique situation with Epic being both a games developer and an engine licensor(word?). I absolutely loved Eternal Darkness and want Too Human to be as good as it can be. Obviously it would have been better for everyone if it didn't have a 5 year dev cycle, but it was a wicked game when it did come out and lets not assume Too Human will be anything less.

    Can anyone elaborate on the Valve-Id case with Q2 and HL1 engine? Was the HL1 engine built using Q2 engine as a base? I was unaware that there was anything between them way back then. In my defense, I was also 13 years old at the time so I was unaware of a lot of things :P
  • Mark Dygert
    The Valve/Q2 thing wasn't as big a deal as this crap is. I remember it more like valve asked ID to let them re-brand the engine they cooked up using Q2 as a base. Provided they proved they changed enough code. I think ID was developing Q3 and said knock yourself out, and let them do it. Later valve removed/rewrote the Q2 code base in a patch. I think the original Half-Life box had a sticker that said "powered by the Quake2 engine"?
  • Asthane
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    Asthane polycounter lvl 18
    I could be wrong, but I swear (I had heard at the time) that Half-Life was built off the Quake 1 engine, not 2.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Yeah I'm pretty sure that was Q1, not Q2.
  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 13
    HL1 was built off a hybrid of Q1 and Q2 code. They licensed the Q1 code as Q2 wasn't finished yet, and part of their agreement was that they would also get the Q2 code. They had built a number of systems that worked off the Q1 code that was incompatible with the Q2 code, and so they cobbled parts of the stuff together, along with their own stuff (their skeletal animation system is one of the big features I remember), and came to an agreement that they could call it their own. iD was cool with that, and then down the road Valve proceded to license the engine to mods and total conversions, making way more bank off of the engine than anyone predicted.

    Valve is actually rather sneaky like that - Steam came about in a similar fashion - rights were obtained, some time passed, and then Valve monetized the shit out of it and was way more successful than everyone else (or at least Sierra/Vivendi) realized.
  • Mark Dygert
    Oh yeah, Half-Life was "Quake brought up to Quake2 standards", opps.
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
  • warby
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    warby polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    If I read it correctly they are asking for that money back, and then some on top of that.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yea, they are asking for all of the profits from Gears as well. Why don't they just include a clause that Epic has to finish their game for them while they are at it?

    [/ QUOTE ]


    laugh.gif hrhr laugh.gif

    i just hope this goes well for both sk and epic

    i hope sk releases that game just so that they get out of "development hell" and break even with what ever they have allready shelld out

    and epic keeps on making games AND tech ... lets face it unreal engine 2.x was leagues ahead of every other engine back than and it looks like so is ue3 now


    also hl --> quake 1 not 2 (quake 2 had fog half life didn't laugh.gif)
  • spacemonkey
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    spacemonkey polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]

    i just hope this goes well for both sk and epic


    [/ QUOTE ]

    thumbup.gif
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    [ QUOTE ]
    Hardly making their own engine, more like stealing U3 tech.
    [ QUOTE ]
    (4) Silicon Knights may alter the Engine without restriction
    (7) the game engine developed by Silicon Knights is totally independent of the Unreal Engine 3 and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights, or, alternatively, the game engine developed by Silicon Knights constitutes an “Enhancement” under the terms of the Agreement, and therefore is the sole property of Silicon Knights under the terms of that Agreement

    [/ QUOTE ]These guys are looking more slip-shot by the minute. It sounds like these guys are trying to do what Valve did with Quake2. "We've changed it so much its no longer yours, YOINK!" The difference being that when valve did it, Quake2 was already old tech and they did massive changes. I doubt SK would change the code base as much as valve did.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Vig this is exactly the couple of lines that made me think WTF. Change the code and "enhance" it. Come on they are just looking to get out of the obligations to Epic.

    And Rainbow Six Vegas came out on 360 before PC am I correct? That came out right around the same time as Gears of War. So how could Ubisoft have pulled a game out like that so quickly if they got the kit so late?

    Just so much stuff that doesn't add up.
  • r13
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    r13 founder
    I think it's safe to say that many Unreal 3 licensees has felt similar frustrations with Epic on the general topic of support, both documentation and actual code. I'm sure each and every single one of them will be watching this situation with unfailing attention.

    Personally, I expect a settlement of some sort to be reached [sooner rather than later] and many documents being signed that will ensure SK doesn't talk about it.

    I think that the very worst thing that could happen to Epic is that their product loses it's current attraction and they lose customers. It should be in their interest to have this all go away as soon as possible. We shall see.
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 19
    I wonder - is a class action lawsuit something that could happen from this? Are they even ABLE to happen with this sort of situation? Where all the companies that license the engine file suit together...?
  • bounchfx
    I'm really looking forward to too human.. I hope this ends well for both companies.
  • Rob Galanakis
    I can't imagine SK would do this because they are looking for someone to blame a shitty game on. No one likes litigation like this, and for reputable companies it is not a first course of action, it is a last resort. It costs money, time, and reputation. I too will be surprised if there is not a settlement soon, also because it could potentially turn into a class-action suit if things seem favorable for SK.

    BTW Jesse, Vegas was an absolutely phenomenal game but I'd hardly call it a "UE3" game as the high-profile titles we are talking about (and a Tom Clancy title is high-profile nowadays, oh rogue spear where are you). I thought it was a heavily modified 2.x UE for a while.

    I want to see this resolved but I'd really be interested in an explanation and response from Epic about all of this.
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