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Patriot Act Now Permanent

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PaK
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PaK polycounter lvl 18
The House of Representatives, ignoring protests from civil liberties groups, renewed the USA Patriot Act on Thursday mostly along party lines, to make permanent the government's unprecedented powers to investigate suspected terrorists.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/21/patriot.act/index.html

Kinda shaping out like the final moments of Revenge of the Sith.

-R

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  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Is this thing like the Erm
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    great nothing like a knee jerk reaction bill which impedes on our civil liberties being made permanent.


    isnt it funny how these terrorist supposedly want to take our freedoms away,but before they do our own politicians are the ones who end up doing it.

    take that terrorist!
  • palm
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    palm polycounter lvl 18
    On a second thought I’m going to keep myself out of this discussion.;)
  • Sett
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    Sett polycounter lvl 18
    I wonder if any of them read it this time.

    It's times like this that makes me wonder if the Republicans pulled off 9/11 rather than the 'terrorists'.

    Think about it-who benefited the most from the attack?.
    The terrorists? -in the short term, they finally got the target they been gunning for. But look at them now. scattered, caught, dead.
    The 'right' Rep. - 9/11 was a godsend. Look at all the things they got away with because of 9/11 that would normally never stand. Also there is no way they would have been re-elected.
    If the terrorists really wanted to fuck America's shit up they could have flown those planes into a have dozen nuclear plants in the area. Only 2700 people died in the attack. Half of those were on the planes. (300*4=1200) what a poor showing.
  • Frank
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    Frank polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Is this thing like the Erm
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I wonder if any of them read it this time.

    It's times like this that makes me wonder if the Republicans pulled off 9/11 rather than the 'terrorists'.

    Think about it-who benefited the most from the attack?.
    The terrorists? -in the short term, they finally got the target they been gunning for. But look at them now. scattered, caught, dead.
    The 'right' Rep. - 9/11 was a godsend. Look at all the things they got away with because of 9/11 that would normally never stand. Also there is no way they would have been re-elected.
    If the terrorists really wanted to fuck America's shit up they could have flown those planes into a have dozen nuclear plants in the area. Only 2700 people died in the attack. Half of those were on the planes. (300*4=1200) what a poor showing.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    intersting you mention this ,in the early 90's many of the current members of the administration formed a washington think tank called "Project for a new American century"

    the purpose of it was to plan out and set the policy for the continuation of American Global military and economic policies,in one of their charter statements titled" Rebuilding Americas Defense" gave an assesment of military goals and looked into how much of this they could accomplish based on level of American support, they concluded that to accomplish all of their goals and to have the public support they need to do this would require a "Catalyzing event not unlike Pearl Harbor"

    and the second they got into power thats what happened

    on this same website which is still up to this day

    http://www.newamericancentury.org/

    they also outline their plans to attack Iraq as well,there are several articles which discuss this this at length,one is even titled "how to attack Iraq"

    There are alot of things which are cause for alarm with this administration, the patriot act,Downing street memos,project for a new american century are the most intereting ones so far.

    it will be interesting what the plame investigaion will uncover
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    It's not like governments faking terrorist attacks to make the populace willing is a new concept though I doubt they'd completely fake an attack, they might remove a few safeguards to make it more likely but pulling it off themselves is too dangerous. Much more effective to get a few weak (terrorists cannot take down the US's attack capabilities or its government system) but real enemies through hostile foreign policies or something that do all the planning and have no link to the gov. No hidden tracks to uncover, nothing except for maybe weak defenses and that could be brushed off as "we didn't know something like this would happen!".

    Shit, the National Security Council advised to conquer the middle east as far back as 1950!

    Sett: Nuclear plants are some of the best armored targets available, that's like trying to crash your plane into a nuclear bunker. These plants were designed for every contingency, including planes, cruise missiles and meltdowns. I doubt anything short of a tactical nuke or maybe a MOAB could destroy a nuclear plant in a way that would leak radiation, sure, the plant will shut down for maintenance if hit by anything and might become inoperable but the reactor will remain safe. A power outage and the proof that we have nothing to fear from terrorist planes crashing into nuclear plants would be the only results.
  • sledgy
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    sledgy polycounter lvl 18
    Ok I'm starting to think they're handing out little baggies of crack at the House door.

    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    i dont think its faked as much as allowed
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    The London Bombings seem so convienant. Not that Im into conspiracies.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Okay, all americans written to their representatives yet? I'm sure they'd like your feedback.
  • j03
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    j03 polycounter lvl 18
    Not sure how many of you have heard of Operation Northwoods but I thought it was pretty relevant to the conversation.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662
  • Irritant
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    Irritant polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Okay, all americans written to their representatives yet? I'm sure they'd like your feedback.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would be very surprised if the majority of Americans didn't favor the Patriot Act.
  • joolz8000
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    joolz8000 polycounter lvl 18
    I think the majority of humans prefer security to freedom in general.
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Okay, all americans written to their representatives yet? I'm sure they'd like your feedback.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would be very surprised if the majority of Americans didn't favor the Patriot Act.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    i think if a majority of americans knew what was in it they would.
  • Toomas
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    Toomas polycounter lvl 18
    I know its way offtopic but i dont wanna make a new thread.
    Who gets to choose who runs the CIA, NSA, FBI, HomelandSecurity, not to mention the army generals etc.?
    Arent these essentially lifetime positions and these guys are actually in charge of your country. The elected goverment is just a puppet to give the impression of democracy.
    Or am i incorrect?
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    the president does,recently he chose porter guass to run the cia and many cia insiders we quite angry and many left the agency because porter guass began to purge the cia of any agents of analyst who go against the opinions of the president.
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 19
    [ QUOTE ]
    Not sure how many of you have heard of Operation Northwoods but I thought it was pretty relevant to the conversation.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Good catch Joe, 911 was probably carried out by those same military commanders.

    Im glad other people see this too.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    As agreement increases, history books change. Nowadays noone doubts Hitler set the Reichstag on fire or that Nero burned Rome, perhaps in fifty years we will know Bush as "the guy who blew up the WTC"...
  • Toomas
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    Toomas polycounter lvl 18
    The bottom line is the people never listen before its too late.
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    out of curiosity, what exactly about the patrit act are you most upset about?
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Can't rate it but stuff like all the wiretaps without requiring the proper legal stuff, detainment, searches, etc without going through a judge, all in all the removal of control instances from the whole process.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    hackers can tap into your home or business network and send attacks wherever they want, be it through your unsecured WAN or from malicious software. This attack gets traced back to you, you are now a suspected terrorist. Will they deport you to a torture friendly country and make you disappear? probably not, but they have the option to. Most likely they will confiscate your computer and you'll get it returned in 9 months, most likely battered and broken (law inforcement doesn't treat your equipment nicely when they take it)
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    sneak and peeks are one thing,a sneak and peak is when authorities can go into your house,search it and not even tell you afterwards they inform you of the search.

    then theres the library reading habits portion,which lets authorities come to your library and get all the information to what you are reading,there was a program which had red flags for certain books like anarcist cook book but now its all fair game.


    many of the provisions have no form of check,balances or rules to prevent misuse which leaves alot of oppurtunity for abuse.

    it hurts due process as well, allowing the goverment to label anyone a terrorist(including americans) jail them without charge and tries them under a military tribunal,tribunal do no allow for appeals through civilian courts and gives tribunal the right to prevent lawyers from speaking to their client.

    remember the dirty bomber Jose Padilla? he has been in US custody for quite a long time and he has yet to be charged with anything, under the patriot act the right for a speedy trial and due process is being stepped on,also jose padilla is an american citizen

    then theres the material support of terrorist which is an ill defind clause which if by anychance you do anything which aids a terrorist,even unkowenly you can be charged,that can be anything from donation to a orginization which seems legitamite to selling your car to someone and the car has been used in an attack
  • AstroZombie
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    AstroZombie polycounter lvl 18
    someone should slip some gun control legislature in with the Patriot Act. It's funny how that is the one and only freedom the right adamantly defends.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    [ QUOTE ]
    someone should slip some gun control legislature in with the Patriot Act. It's funny how that is the one and only freedom the right adamantly defends.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    woah now buddy, I just purchased my 30 round assault rifle with attached bayonet, it's the only way I feel safe in my home!
  • sledgy
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    sledgy polycounter lvl 18
    aesir, the part I don't like about it the most is that someone can be detained indefinitely without trial for being merely suspected of terrorism. This is a direct conflict with the 14th amendment. In Nazi Germany, there were similar policies that enabled someone to finger their neighbor as being a Jew sympathizer or being suspected of harboring Jews and they would be detained, sent to a concentration camp or shot. Not to mention what happened to the Jews. I think it's just a bad idea to let that shit get started. Looks like not enough people cared about it enough in 2004 :\

    Edit: After a little research I found I was in error, that only non-citizens can be detained indefinitely. I still think that's shitty though.
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 19
    [ QUOTE ]


    Edit: After a little research I found I was in error, that only non-citizens can be detained indefinitely. I still think that's shitty though.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Your right and also wrong, American citizens can technicly be stripped of their citizenship under the USA-PATRIOTACT and be detained indefinitely.

    Now you would say hhm big deal im canadian, well over the last 2 months there are repports that Bush is looking to merge Canada, US, and Mexico for a Pan-american union, a bit like the Euro-union. This means merging our laws, military, industries and one single currency for everyone.
  • Reagan
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    Reagan polycounter lvl 18
    Oh good lord, someone already brought out the N-word. Godwin's law eats your face.
  • sledgy
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    sledgy polycounter lvl 18
    I contest the validity of N-word violation and invocation of Godwin's law based on there *actually being a parallel wink.gif
  • KeyserSoze
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    KeyserSoze polycounter lvl 18
    I've been wanting to post this, but I didn't want to give it it's own thread. I think it's somewhat relevant.

    http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html

    It's called the "Real ID Act," and it has already made it through the House. Basically, it will require all US citizens to carry a national ID card that includes the person's name, birth date, sex, ID number, a digital photograph, address, and possibly Social Security number, fingerprint or retinal scan.

    The Department of Hauptland... ahem, excuse me, "Homeland" Security is pushing to include RFID (radio frequency identification) chips in the cards, so the info on the cards could be read remotely. That means the feds can read your ID which could include your SSN, fingerprint, etc, without you even knowing.

    I find this, combined with the Patriot Act, very disheartening.
  • palm
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    palm polycounter lvl 18
    Have there been any “terrorists act” stopped or any terrorists arrested on American soil since the patriot act was installed?
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    yeah, it's really funny how they snuck the "Real ID Act" in with a military spending bill, so anybody opposing it could be accused of "not supporting our troops". Good news though, a faraday cage will block the RFID signal, taken from RSA's site:

    Can RFID reading be jammed or otherwise obstructed?

    Yes. A metal or foil-lined container that is impenetrable to radio-frequency waves is known as a Faraday cage. An RFID tag in a Faraday cage is effectively unreadable.
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Have there been any “terrorists act” stopped or any terrorists arrested on American soil since the patriot act was installed?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    They arrested some suspected terrorists in Lodi. Pretty close to sacramento where I live.
  • Weiser_Cain
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    Weiser_Cain polycounter lvl 18
    Nothing's permanent under our system.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    all the "suspected terrorists" arrested since 911 have apparently been released without charge. This is the news they don't bother with.

    what you guys need is a revoloution, seriously.
  • Mishra
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    Mishra polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    what you guys need is a revoloution, seriously.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ive been saying that for years now
  • Weiser_Cain
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    Weiser_Cain polycounter lvl 18
    Um, you really don't want that.
  • Mishra
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    Mishra polycounter lvl 18
    doesnt need to be a violent one : /
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    looks like that time traveller bloke was right.
  • KeyserSoze
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    KeyserSoze polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    looks like that time traveller bloke was right.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Huh?
  • Joshua Stubbles
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    Joshua Stubbles polycounter lvl 19
    John Titor, I think his name was. Supposedly there was going to be 'unrest' and such, based around the 2004 elections (this guy came around the internet in the mid 90's, btw). Ultimately, it's to lead to a limited nuclear war with Russia, in 2012-2015, I think. By limited, I mean it was only the largest cities were destroyed, like a 'mistake' by both sides. After that, the world is apparently a 'better place', with everyone helping each other.

    And, Sett - "Only 2700 people died in the attack. Half of those were on the planes. (300*4=1200) what a poor showing. "

    Only 2700? Seriously. Fuck off.
  • KeyserSoze
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    KeyserSoze polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Only 2700? Seriously. Fuck off.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think you missed his point.
  • Joshua Stubbles
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    Joshua Stubbles polycounter lvl 19
    I understand the point. The terrorists could have done worse, yadda yadda yadda.

    It should have been worded otherwise, if it were not to recieve my response.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Reagan: Godwin's Law only says there will be a Nazi reference in any thread if the thread continues indefinitely. That "A debate is over when a Nazi reference is used" crap was added by other people. Besides, your avatar is 300kb.

    What bothers me more about RFIDd ID cards is that readers could fall into civillian hands. I don't trust the gov much but a corporation is even worse. Secretly scanning your ID card at checkout so they know who you are, where you live and have a history of all your purchases? Privacy, helloooo??

    Standard ID cards aren't THAT bad. After I read through Acts of Gord I saw that the lack of any standardized ID card in the US is a problem. He requires a driver's license and a credit card or SSN, when I made an account at a rental place here I showed them my ID card and that was it, no driver's license or anything required. People trying to identify themselves through telephone bills is just stupid.
  • Jes
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    Jes polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    woah now buddy, I just purchased my 30 round assault rifle with attached bayonet, it's the only way I feel safe in my home!

    [/ QUOTE ]Yep, true freedom is the ability to stick a full-automatic out of a window and mow down the neighbour family because "they're not like us"... cool.gif


    Whenever I see someone proclaiming that "the right to own weaponry will, can and has reduced crime/murder rates", I can't chuckle...
  • palm
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    palm polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    all the "suspected terrorists" arrested since 911 have apparently been released without charge. This is the news they don't bother with.

    what you guys need is a revoloution, seriously.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It’s horrible to se your government slowly taking away your freedom with nothing to show for it. Your slowly turning into a police state.
  • Sett
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    Sett polycounter lvl 18
    Here's something else.

    After election have you heard of even one of those bs threat levels increases?(red,yellow,orange...etc)

    Before the election they had one every two~three weeks, now nothing... how odd. You would think in the wake of the London bombings there would be a bump. But no.
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    do you also honostly think that terror threat level color system will ever drop to green?
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    I hink they'd use Ankh-Morpork logic there ("Can you absolutely, 100% gurantee that despite all quantum effects and dust particles that product contains absolutely no peanuts?" Result: Everything was labelled "may contain peanuts").
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