Vertical Mouse? any tips for painful hands
quad damage
Hi
I am going to invest in a Vertical Mouse as I am getting forearm pain, can you offer any advice? Also I was wondering if I should go Wireless?
I've been looking through this lot - Insight and this one is catching my eye Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 Right - vertical mouse - 2.4 GHz
Replies
tbh if you are just replacing one mouse with another one, you will sufer soon as well. so first and foremost check into stretching for your hands/arm
Yeah sounds like a short term solution to combat a long term issue.
The Evoluent always looks a little extreme in how its angled, like it might not be that comfortable and require some relearning of mouse skills.
There are vertical mice out there that are more of a blend between that and a typical flat mouse. I went with a model from Speedlink some years ago not because of any discomfort but it simply felt the best in my hand when I compared a bunch of models in the store. Took zero time to get used to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIsck8KPIwE
Bought a few more to have spares. ;) Good thing too since they don't make it anymore.
If in doubt I'd always pick a wired mouse - no batteries, no dongles, no whatever setup required and will work in any Bios. No potential for interferences and it won't fly off the desk either. But then I don't care much for having my desk 100% free of wires for that Youtube Influencer look.
wrist pain and stiffness may slow your productivity a great deal before even realizing it as a potential career killer.
be wary of these signs and speak with a medical professional.
it's quite difficult to be an artist without hands, eyes, and mind in good health.
Yeah, good point. I think with my lecturing role there is a lot of middle mouse wheeling up and down marking chats and reveiwng PDFs/blogs/emails and so on. That could be the issue as it's causing my forearm extensors into some RSI. Mixed in with lots of last minute rushed clean up 3D modelling depending on how the last lesson went thats probally forcing me to brute force a task with the same clicks as there is no time to refine the pipeline.
Also thinking about it, I've got a very large screen this year so I might be guilty of not using the side slider so much.....hmmm glad I posted now.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
i tried one (and a few other types) cause i was getting bad wrist pain. I found all the ergonomic type mouse designs to be too wonky for modeling.
Perhaps with more time I could have gotten used to it. But I gave up and just stick with the Logitech g502.
I overcame wrist pain by reducing hours spent doing repetitive things. I found smarter ways to structure my work so that it gets broken up more often. This actually helped overall productivity too, compared to trying to power through task until they were done.
Anyway, I know its not what was asked and for some people they may have little control over what/how they are doing, but IME the only solution is spend less consecutive time pushing the mouse.
One thing I can say for sure made a big difference is not using the scroll wheel for middle click, but instead use either a side "squeeze" button on the mouse, or some keyboard key. For modeling with heavy middle mouse use I found that to help a lot. In fact it seems like almost all of my problems come from having that slight tension when your fingers are lifted (even if just a tiny bit).
I hadnt thought about it until now, but i actually never use the scroll wheel for scrolling anymore. My side button on the mouse functions so that when i click it, it toggles scroll and then you just move mouse up or down to scroll. All my web-browisng and scrolling I do that way cause then i can leave my fingers relaxed.
.....lots of last minute rushed clean up 3D modelling.....
Force yourself to relax (sounds oxymoronic) and use a pen tablet where possible. Seriously set your phone to go off every 15 mins or so and relax your muscles and posture.
I had started forming a cyst on my right wrist from poor posture and repetitive tasks. I picked up a vertical mouse in dire need of a solution. The cyst improved slightly. but it became difficult to do normal tasks as not only was my wrist still in pain, but my forearm started feeling sore as well. If you're getting forearm pain, I would stay away as this design as it is meant to reduce wrist strain by using more of the forearm and shoulder muscles instead. I also found using it for any 3D work was very cumbersome.
I then dived into the idea of using a 3D mouse. Since you mentioned you're split between your lecture role and cleaning up 3D assets, this could allow you to divide and conquer by using one hand for 3D nav and general web/doc/navigation while your other hand does all the click work. I switched my setup to this about two years ago and I have had zero problems with my wrist and the cyst has shrunken by about 75%. It was a game changer and career saver. They're also fully supported by all major 3D DCC apps (Max, Maya, ZBrush, Blender) as well as UE4.27 upwards and Substance Painter (which was an even bigger game changer for working in Substance).
I hope you find something that works best for you, being in pain from developing your career is absolutely no fun.
Almost all 3d software require the user to hold down a click in order to move a component. This doesn't sound like much, but it is extremely stressing to the hands. Even worse when MMB is involved.
You'll realize that once you'll try the Blender method of tapping a transform hotkey and just moving the mouse around to transform (without having to hold down any click) and confirm. It makes a huge difference. This probably has some root in CAD software, as this is quite similar to how the move tool tends to operate in software originally using command line tools for drawing operation, like old Autocad.
Other issues are the way some software make you think they are going easy on you with selections, by flashing some dumb "preselection highlighting" ... while still requiring pixel accuracy to actually select things. For that too Blender is much, much better than Autodesk apps, as it doesn't require to precisely select components.
Vertical mice are fun and do relieve the stress as they turn clickdowns into pinching. But I'd say it's best to first and foremost eliminate the held down clicks.
Went with this one a year or two ago and I don't regret it I felt the same week my wrist and hand reliefed.
https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-vertical-ergonomic-mouse.910-005447.html
I have unfortunately the opposite experience. Couldn't work with a vertical mouse at all. It is collecting dust here now. So before you invest, have a look if you can really work that way. Or if you can optimize your workflow further to not use the mouse this much.
I also bought the same Logitech model as @another caveman and it's working great for me. But I agree it's not for everyone.
That Logitech vertical is the exact same mouse I picked up. I totally agree with @Eric Chadwick that it is not for everyone as mine ended up at the local recycling center. Some of these investments become a hit or miss per user. Best bet is to modify the workflow as suggested by @Alex_J and @pior for 1-3 months. If that doesn't alleviate any pain after your set time period, hardware is a possible alternative. While I don't regret dumping money into my setup (or the trials that failed), the first steps of workflow adjustment cannot be overlooked. Thank you both for bringing these methods to the forefront.
The suggestion from @kanga is priceless. Add their method to making sure you allow for adequate sleep, hydration and stretching... it can make a huge difference if disciplined into routine.
To put it lightly, we're not getting any younger! ;) Maybe one day we'll not have to use so many baby toys to make things...
Have you thought about using a Wacom? I found that to be the most effective way to prevent repetitive strain injuries.
Variety is the most important thing to prevent hand strain and with a Wacom and mouse I can switch between the two different control types.
I use a Cherry vertical mouse at work, not because I had already issues but for trial, because I was curious.
I do prefer the hand position, it feels more relaxed. One problem, there are not many models to choose from, I think it's more important that the mouse fits to your hand.
What I personally think is the most straining action, is the usage of the mouse wheel as a button, therefore I only work with mice that have a thumb button which can be configured as a middle mouse button.
I have a cheap technet mouse and suits me great, never had wrist pain in 20 years
its actually much smaller than my hand, but I seem to hjave adapted ( like the borg)
I think a mouse alone is no solution.
Look at the whole picture.
Nerve damage is tricky, the pain doesnt mean the critical spot is at the same position.
From a elbow and a to hard rest, over a relaxed forearm which support the upper arm constant on a hard table etc. ...
Yeah - as a matter of fact, why not post a picture of the whole workstation ? Sure enough there are probably a few more things to fix than just the mouse.
a vertical mouse isn't a bad idea, especially if your workstation/habits aren't the most ergonomic and particularly if you're suffering muscular pain in your forearms
I've been using the cheap anker/trust wireless ones for several years - they tend to die after 18 months or so but at about £13 each they're basically disposable.
My one complaint with vertical mice is first click accuracy (or rather the mouse moving slightly when you click) - it doesn't bother me in maya (because it has the stupid guess at what you clicked on thing) but in other software it can be a bit of a pain in the arse
to expand on what Pior has said - your keyboard is probably doing more damage than the mouse in the long run. it is definitely worth investing in something you can program with QMK and then putting the time in to set up things like sticky modifiers, tapdance and macros .
I'm using a corne as my daily driver but those really aren't for everyone - there's plenty of conventional layout boards that support qmk out there though
Okay, going to have to clean up first :)
Imagine this but with more crap piled on top, I just sent off the last of the grades to the students today so I am going to treat myself and look up into the sky tomorrow, living the dream :)
Currently road testing this cheep wireless vertical in tandem with a portable purchase, I'd recently splashed out on a Gigabyte A7 K1 17.3" notebook.
Thus far I'd say fairly adequate, as a first time user going down the 'ergonomic' track (...long afflicted with intermittent Carpal Tunnel throughout the master hand wrist & forearm) alongside propping both elbows upon a few cushions, atop my chair's armrests during extended modeling sessions. However as with anything disruptive, I guess time will tell whether results may or may not prove beneficial in the short to medium term.
Wow, poor you, I feel like I have nothing to moan about now. I will try the stretching, physiotherapy and get some professional advice.
I am trying this TECWARE Torque mouse for a bit as I tried my work mates vertical mouse but in no time I was getting more pain, could be due to using different mussels and I am over compensating. Could just be old age, I am 47 but I do boot camp in the park most mornings without any pain.
So far, the new mouse feels better and the pain is gone, it has a speed options on the side which helps in Maya/Blender/UE5/Houdini. It also has a-mould grip design which I find helps when doing macro movements, it also has eight programable buttons so I will see if I can change any bad habits.
My work mate on the MA has made a series of videos which is all about life after 3D due to his hands giving up on him poor fella.
Unfortunately, CG artists (2D and 3D) can be *incredibly stupid* when it comes to dealing with their tools. And I don't mean it in any kind of hyperbolic way just for the sake of being edgy ...
Walking into any CG art department you'll see some people using a death grip on their regular Wacom to compensate for the awkwardness of the split between hand an monitor ; some people doing the "undo/redo dance" until they get a clean line right, that too because of the inherent limitations of regular tablets ; Cintiq users working with their nose mere centimeters away from the bright screen ; digital painters having to zoom way into their canvas just to have some good control over their strokes, at a level of detail that would never require that kind of scrutiny with real life media ; 3D artists orbiting around their models like crazy ; and as is probably the case with the OP, modelers accepting the fate of 3d apps requiring to hold-drag clickdowns hundreds of times per day. And on top of that, misconceptions about physiology and ergonomy causing people to believe that they need a swivel chair with dozens of knobs and things like "lumbar support" pads. Oh, and I forgot to mention users of inductive tablets hovering their hands over the display because palm rejection sucks.
Of course I am not saying that getting RSI from work is anything to laugh at, as I've been there too : debilitating wrist pain after a regular work day at the office because I was trying too hard to make a regular tablet work for me, or being unable to either walk or sit because of stupid pseudo-ergonomic chairs causing a sciatica (pinched nerve), or getting nausea from just sitting in front of pen display. And I've witnessed friends and colleagues needing medication and/or surgery to fix even worse issues - leading to some having to stop working altogether, just like the person in the video above.
So please folks, don't ever "fight through it" just because other people do, or because that's how the tools work by default. There are ways to work without ending up like a broken mess but it all starts by acknowledging issues as soon as they arise as opposed to brushing them off.
I uase my wacom as a table mat these days, seems to be a bit broken from the heat :)
Hopefully I can offer some advice as someone who spent a lot of time and money trying to fix various issues I had and how I fixed them.
One of the most important things I learned is that if something hurts, there is a good chance that the thing that is hurting isn't actually the problem. The arm is one long kinetic chain, wrist issues could actually be cause by your shoulders being slouched or your elbows not being angled right. The thing that hurts is the "weakest link" that is suffering from stress in another point. I went to physical therapy to try and figure out why my shoulder/scapula was hurting so much, it turns out it wasn't the issue. It was actually my pectorals being so tight and so used to being in a forward position from being on the computer, arting, driving and anything else you do with your arms in front of you that it was pulling on my back and shoulder muscles, causing a lot of pain. I learned various stretches to help them out that I now do on the regular.
Strength training and regular stretching became super important for keeping myself healthy. For strength training I made sure to put a little extra emphasis on back muscles to help keep me from slouching and prevent my shoulders from getting pulled and sloped forward. You don't have to go super heavy or hard, even light weights, exercise bands or slow motions without weights can do a lot to help.
Invest in ergonomics, it really does make a difference. If it means you need a vertical mouse and it helps, then it's a good investment. Here are the things that I have done to my workspace over time to make sure it's as ergonomic as possible:
Adding on to @pior's point about the program you using mattering, it's actually pretty true. I used to be a 3DS Max person, as much as I miss the program sometimes, I remember it being absolute murder on my hands with how heavy it relied on middle clicks and how it wasn't always tablet friendly. I moved to Blender once 2.8 rolled around and I have noticed how much happier my hands feel overall. I don't get the pain from the constant clicking in my fingers like I used to. The only pain I tend to get these days is when it's clear I've been going at it for too long and need a break.
Which brings up the next point that others have also brought up: sometimes you just have to take a rest. All of the strength training, stretching and most ergonomic setup in the world doesn't change the fact that you are doing a lot of repetitive movements hundreds, maybe even thousands of times a day. As hard as it can be to get away from the computer and relax, it is something you just have to do on the regular in order for your body to heal itself.
You might find a 40% split board to be a pain in the arse if you're working in modelling apps etc.
I can't come up with a good layout that supports writing code and operating the wide range of apps I use regularly (eg. I want alt on the right half of the board for typing but need it on the left for Maya)
Also - where do you put the mouse?
I solve the problem by swapping to another keyboard if I know Im going to be modelling for a while - I was actually going to grab a planck and program it specifically for modelling.
For those who aren't inclined to enter the custom ergo keyboard minefield - programmable gaming keypads work great, I've had a couple of razer ones in the past
I think the most important thing to take from the various comments above is that you need to worry about this before it happens.
I think the case above (swapping between two keyboards) is a great example of the attitude that more people should have really.
Similarly to using two keyboards, it is also very possible to have both a pen display and a regular tablet plugged at the same time in order to benefit from the strengths of both devices. It just requires a little bit of research about the various gens of models and their corresponding drivers.
I might be wrong, but I feel like a lot of the ergonomic issues people run into may come from just accepting what is perceived as the "norm". If a certain way of working causes you pain or is laggy, stop using it and look for an alternative !
@Alemja : really happy to hear that ! I've been through a similar path : starting with the awful default Max interaction scheme, then adopting the Maya scheme within Max (first using third party plugins), and then moving to Blender and adopting a hybrid between Maya controls and the incredibely clever "no held clicks" Blender paradigm. It really does feel very gentle and lightweight. Unfortunately this aspect of the program is quite hard to explain to anyone not familiar with this CAD-like paradigm in the first place.
One thing I'm going to go ahead and add on to this, as I haven't seen it mentioned (though it's in the same vein as Alemja's advice) - not all work-related pain can be solved by adjusting your work-related routine. It will remain true that repetitive motions or held positions, whether your arm is rotated this way or that, can really screw with your body.
Giving your body time to heal from strain is hugely important. Your body has quite a bit of time to heal and recover while you sleep, but you might be sleeping in a way that only aggravates the issue. I've had various carpal tunnel - and more recently, cubital tunnel syndrome issues for a good bit now. The latter of which took me a long time to figure out.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21997-cubital-tunnel-syndrome
Issues felt in my hands, but problems more in my wrist - and more notably, my elbow. Made a lot of sense, I've spent the past 15-20 years spending so much time at a desk with my elbows pressed into some not-so-comfy armrests and I didn't do much in terms of exercise to help my body's general maintenance. And what might have actually been a larger issue, I'd spend an entire evening unconscious with my elbows and/or wrists pretty notably bent - as long if not longer than the time I'd spend in less-than-ideal positions at my desk. Ever wake up and have part of your hand numb? That's no bueno.
Doing some digging, studies seemed to indicate that sleeping with a brace to keep your arm (and/or wrist - depending on whether carpal or cubital tunnel issues) straight at night was reported to help quite a bit. Spent $30 on an arm brace from amazon, keeps my arm straight while I sleep and that + some light daily exercise has solved 90% of my issues. I can tell they would resurface if I did away with it and started sleeping with my arms bent again, I'll feel it if I pass out on the couch or something and wind up in a dumb position, but it's been a pretty easy thing to get used to.
this is unbelievable, had no Idea you can fuck up your hands this bad just by using a mouse