Having trouble modeling this in MD...
polycounter lvl 3
About 4 hours that I am stuck on this... I am talking about the white jacket and especially the collar. It is very hard for me to visualize the pattern of this, eventhough I understand that the left side goes underneath the right one like a reversed kimono. But when it comes to build it... I am actually thinking of going back to Zbrush and sculpting it but I need to improve in MD...
Replies
block it out in your 3d program first, then simulate in MD. You can make it so that on import, the UV shells become the pattern.
But IMO, there is so few folds that couldn't easily be sculpted, i might not bother with MD. Zbrush also has some cloth sim now, so you might be able to just mask off certain parts to get your basic sense of gravity, then go in manually for smaller folds/wrinkles.
Thanks for your response, I'll try it
So I tried the technic, and I know this is the technic used by Laura Gallagher, but simply cannot get it to work properly for this piece of cloth. And I made a bunch of pretty complicated garment before this one without too much trouble but this one is just.. each time I import , sew everything and make sure every length correspond, as soon as I start to simulate, the mesh drastically changes it's shape, I even tried to solidify it but it has a minimum impact.
I was seeking a workflow that could handle any types of garments but it appears that the only workflow that can really be relied on is the Zbrush only one.. But at the same time MD is a must for the game industry... So I if decide to do all my folds on Zbrush will it be that much of a draw back for future job ?
what fabric are you applying? to me it sounds like you might have to make your own super still material for this to work. but really. if it doesnt work, just do it in modelling/sculpt, unless you are forced to doing it all in MD, i wouldnt stress it and just use whatever works.
Yeah I would expect this to be much easier to model with old-school techniques, then use cloth sim on select areas in zbrush. It seems like it is meant to be leather. It looks really stiff and there isn't even any overlapping folds (what MD is good at making but is hard to manually model).
There is probably some MD super-gurus who might build this in MD but what a hassle. And given thtat there isn't very many big or complicated folds, I'd think you could sculpt them by hand faster in zbrush. If you wanted to try more in MD, you could try some of the leather presets but you'll spend so much time tweaking and guessing... i like a workflow with more predictability.
Personally I'd get it done in maya and then do details in zbrush. OF course you can do it all in zbrush if you work better in thtere.
I used a cotton canvas that I tweaked a little to be more rigid. But the thing with modeling is that I feel I am doing a disservice to myself when I go back and do it to Zbrush cause If I need to do that this tell me that I indeed need more practice in MD and going to zbrush won't help my skill on the long term. Cause even if it take some time in Zbrush the result is a guarantee whereas doing it MD is uncertain, and this need to be fixed, I think. Thou I still use Zbrush to do tight cloth, straps, knots and laces cause I thinks doing those in MD is just a bad time investment, I only do large piece that have a fold set up that would take longer to achieve in Zbrush.
Yeah Zbrush is the most predictable option and it will always be. And I am not sure if it exist, but having a list of all the things that are super challenging to do in MD will super useful so to know which software will be a better option when dealing with a garment.
Also the thing with that particular garment and the reason why I don't want to do it in Zbrush is, what if it had a lot more folds with complicated overlaps? Now , being able to that kind of garment in MD would make a lot more sense, if we consider the time spent.
But I also think that with some training and esoteric technics in Zbrush any garment could be done as quickly if not quicker as in MD, we just have to developpe the right workflow, relying on procedural tool sas much as possible to save time.
i would try to go with the siffest material it offers and then gradually go softer, this way you make sure that the main shape actually can stay in tact.
but honestly in the normal game produciton, zbrush is a usual step. no need waste time on this, when you can spend that time on learning on how to handle more complex sewing patterns
I feel that by understanding how to do this with the proper darts and curves, I will be able to handle a lot of other challenging shapes. Funny enough, I went to fiverr and ask some CLO/MD professional to do this for me and recording them selve so I can see their technic, but the majority of them refused saying it was too complicated.
What do you mean Zbrush is an usual step ? You mean just the blockout without exporting into MD, right ? or that most people are using the outgang/Laura technic, where you clean, unwrap and export the blockout into MD ?
Also. Do you have exemples of more complex sewing pattern as you said ?
There is definitely people out there who can do this in MD and probably in just a few hours at that. And there is people who can do it in zbrush only. My assumption is that you wanted to get it done as quick as possible with the current skills you have, minimizing how much new stuff you have to learn.
How far you want to specialize in a specific software or type of asset creation is totally up to you, of course.
I've done a bit of "complex" stuff in MD and always found it significantly faster to get the blockout done in maya and only use MD for simulation. But with an item like this that has a lot of separate pieces to sew together, I would expect at least an hour or more of doing just that - sewing together. But the new MD version has made big improvements in user friendliness for that.
I try to avoid opening zbrush just because I dont like it, but that's just me.
There is always many ways to accomplish the task, IME it can cost more time to try and figure out the best way versus just doing the way you know is possible right now. But if you can foresee yourself using MD a lot in the future, absolutely makes sense to push your skills with it. Or if you wanted to up your skills with a more generalist software, why not see what you can do with zbrush? Unlimited possibilities.
On artstation store there is at least a few really cheap MD projects you can buy. Some of them are pretty complicated.
My assumption is that you wanted to get it done as quick as possible with the current skills you have, minimizing how much new stuff you have to learn.
You couldn't be further from the truth, I though I knew enough to do anything I see as quick as I can without ever having to think about the next step, but this made me realize my incompetence.
I've done a bit of "complex" stuff in MD and always found it significantly faster to get the blockout done in maya and only use MD for simulation
So if I understand well, you build it all in Maya, then send to MD, hit space bar, then export back ? This almost seems too good to be true. So you never actually have to deal with pattern making, darts, curved seams and watching out the length correspondence ? All these cheat that gives me headache. Cause I am for the most effective workflow. You know 20% efforts 80% results lol
look at the rest of the outfit! there is plenty of stuff you can to cover here :)
if you figured out all the rest of it, maybe you are strong enough to dabble with the collar. don't get caught up on one part, that is only 5% of the whole thing!
@Stensword ,
no you cannot just push space. You have to sew the patterns.
But you dont have to create the patterns in MD, or put them in the right spot. All you have to do is sew, adjsut the materials, and then simulate.
I think it's covered here: 3D File (OBJ) Import/Export – Marvelous Designer Help Center (zendesk.com)
The idea is that it is a pain in the ass to make the patterns in MD and then drag them around the model, so you do that in 3d software instead.
Well the rest of the outfit has basically only garments that had patterns I was already super familiar with, so yeah it was a breeze, and now I moved on another concept. And it is probably 5% of the piece but being next to the head this fancy collar would get up to 60% of the viewer's attention, so failing the collar is failing a lot od the outfit, I think.
as a test, get the MD avatar to your 3d dcc and make a super simple tshirt or gown that goes over it. It can just be a block with two holes. Send that block outfit to MD.
You have to use the right checkboxes to make it work as a garment in MD, so check out the docs for that. And make sure you read about how the UV's are involved.
Next step is sew the edges, then finally you can simulate. IIRC it may automatically try to detect edges and sew them, but it does a poor job so you have to manually clean up.
This demonstrates hwo you can do the hardest part of the work in your 3d dcc, and then only use MD for what it does best.
Yeah, you have to sew but it is usually pretty fast, you only have to extend the imported seam, so that's why I said "hit space bar", but it is : fix the sew. hit space. call it a day and I definitely want to do that
No, it's not that simple either. You still have to mess with the materials, and adjust the patterns, and tweak and tweak. There is no "make art" button. The import obj and trace UV's as pattern just simplifies the initial hard part of the workflow. Saves a few hours work in some cases.
If you are trying to make complicated clothes, it's tedious work. No way around that.
can you show where you are at with the rest of the outfit?
I didn't knew this thread would turn into a feedback session. So this the model I got when I exported out of MD, imported into Zbrush creased the pg then subdivided to snooth it. I still need to add the straps, add and correct some wrinkles, and the black belts around the waist that I normally do in Zbrush, but which I won't be doing cause I still need to find the worflow to rule them all.
I don't plan to publish these kind of work in my portfolio these are just practices exercises.
You got super advice already. It sounds like you are having trouble with the stiffness/thickness. I get why you want to make the MD workflow work. The thing with MD is that even a simple collar isn't straight forward. Airborn is right, if this was a commercial job then the quickest surest solution is the way to go. Seems you are studying so it makes sense to get this working in MD.
I would start off by importing my own figure. Make the patterns in MD, stitch and simulate. Play with material stiffness and thickness (like the posters said we think this is your problem) and alter your pattern where needed, and repeat. Look up youtube tutorials on editing material properties, there are a s... ton. Its just my preference but the base figure is too heavy for a fashion model. There are design features used in the concept to accentuate the hips (the belted wasp waist for example) and it's handy if your base figure reflects that. The trouser work you have done isn't there yet. You need to work with thickness/stiffness, pins, etc to get the material to behave in a way that illustrates what you want to show, with the added benefit of simulation.
MD is an amazing bit of soft. It takes some getting use to though.
Ok, thanks for the review and for all the advices regarding the base figure. Even though this wasn't meant to be a anatomy training(I just took a woman sculpt I did in the past and started), I get the idea that the avatar is super important in order for the garment to look better, cause some garment need certain body feature to shine just like in real life. And I'll pay more attention to that for furtur cloth exercises
The trouser work you have done isn't there yet
What exactly make you think that ? too much folds on the middle part ? Groin area too tight ? Material too bendy ?
it just doesnt feel like the concept, besides being a lot more detailled, which could be cast away as stylechoice.
i feel like the pattern is like a modified cargo pant, rather than what feels like oldschool pilot pants (or japanese hipster pants you see nowadays) in the concept. your legs are cut pretty straight while in concept they build a distinctive shape.
Yeah, I agree the overall silhouette is drastically different, the top parts are too tight and should have been free falling to the compression area gradually starting below the knee whereas the calf area has too much folds spread uniformly which looks boring and not enough volume from the (should have been) free falling top, the overall pattern needs just to be changed. And as I said before the material needs to be more rigid to create bigger folds like in the concept. Yeah it feels more like a hipster jap pants that has the details of a cargo pant. Plus the upper/attaching parts of the back flaps has these abnormal horizontal folds showing that the flaps are too tightly sewed(it needs more horizontal volume) as opposed to the middle and bottom part that are stress free.
I'll maybe try to make it closer to the concept in the future. This is my analysis
The trouser work you have done isn't there yet
What exactly make you think that ?
Folds are not helping the form. Instead of describing the garment and the base figure they appear lumpy and work against the overall design. The extra stuff you added (like the zipper detach loops on the upper thighs and diagonal strips) work as visually jarring instead of aiding. The folds also work against the form. On the front of the calf (particularly the right) the main front fold gives the impression that the bone bends forward. It does but not that much.
Thanks for your precision. And after looking at it, again, yeah the folds are indeed the biggest problem especially for the right leg.