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Stone Bridge Project - Advice Needed

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Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
Hi Polycounters! I currently got my hands on Zbrush and a decent graphics tablet and decided for my next project, to create a stone bridge, which will ultimately be part of a small scene deep within a forest. It will be a long project for me as I have never really created assets for games using the zbrush workflow.

My initial work flow idea is this:

- Block out bridge in MODO (how the stones are piled on top of each other and getting dimensions right)
- Using that low poly information, create several blocks and prepare to extract to zbrush

- In ZBRUSH, sculpt these lil babies and extract back into modo for retopology and UV.

- Construct the bridge using the high poly individual stones, with some extruding out of the wall than other (gives me the chance to use all sides of the individual pieces and being reusable

- With the whole high poly bridge setup in MODO, I retop the whole thing and UV map

- In Substance Des. Link the Low Poly and texture from there.

If there may be a better and easier method of creating this asset, may can I hear them?

Much appreciated.

Peace,
beardy.

edit: sorry if the picture is HUGE :')

Replies

  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Just started a very basic block out in MODO. I wanted to get a feel for the scale, the composition and orientation of some of the main rocks I want to sculpt.

    Again, if you have any advice about the best way (workflow) to sculpt the details and baking, then I will be more than glad to hear your opinions.







  • Rybesone
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    Rybesone polycounter lvl 3
    I'm learning too, but here's what I know, to add details in Zbrush alphas come in handy. In fact you can find a bunch of alphas on the Zbrush site. What alphas do is add relief to your mesh, so the more polygons you have, the more detail you get out of alphas because it will pull or push the polygons on your mesh. Here's the alpha library, also you can make your own!

  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Thank you very much, that is something I definitely want to try out :D

    Do you have a specific workflow when you work with zbrush? Im thinking I should sculpt the bridge in its entirety, then decimate and UV Unwrap in zbrush before texturing in substance.

    Thanks for that info! 
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Did some test bake from zbrush > MODO. Trying to find the right method of recreating these rocks they used to build the bridge.
    I will try looking at some other artists that have done something similar using ZBrush.

  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Getting a little better at defining features for rocks using ZBrush. 

    This is a small piece from the bridge. It's a boulder that will close the gap between the much larger rock statues on the bridge. I decided to give it a sharp feel, with the central portion hand carved with symbols around.

    The symbols themselves depict characters from the story I'm basing the bridge from.

    I am having a little bit of trouble with baking the normals (ZBrush - sculpt, decimate) > MODO - bake. I will upload some of the failed bakes soon.
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    I have been having a little trouble in terms of baking the normals for the rocks. I initially want to get down the workflow that I am going to be using for this project, and so far it hasn't been smooth sailing, but I really want to finish this.

    I managed to bake my normals in MODO 'from object to texture', after doing more reading I was able to set up my normals. 

    Here is a basic scene with the Boulder duplicated to show all sides:


    There are a lot I can work on in terms of baking my normals, one being that I would like to use XNormal. As this is working for now I would like to see how I can go about texturing this thing and seperate some of the materials. This forest scene is buried within a forest there for I didn't want the textures to be too clean and clinical, therefore I would like to find a method of separate the materials and create some nice moss materials on the rocks too.

    Here us a Marmoset render to show the wireframe and some of my ideas in terms of the materials/textures:



    Texturing

    Now, I want to begin thinking how I should texture. I guess polypainting is one method, perhaps polypainting where the materials with seperate and bake a color map for Substance Designer is a thing. I don't know. That's the way forward anyways. 

    Once I finish this asset. It will be used int he bridge project, but I will be able to create the other assets easier, given that I have the workflow down.

    Any Crits are welcome, I would love you guys opinions!

    Peace,
    Beardy.
  • karynatrychyk
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    karynatrychyk polycounter lvl 11
    Hi Beardy! Nice asset and I like a lot the way you present your working progress. But the way you planned it will take lots of time and effort. If I had to make such bridge, I would sculpt boulders and half of an arc and make one tile for sides and top. Then you can use some decals to break the tile.
    For rocks you definitely need sharper shapes. Try to use TrimSmoothBorder brush with square alpha and Orb_cracks. And I would also make a set of alphas to use on all rocks, to speed up the process and to make them look more consistent.
    For texturing I think Substance Painter would be the quickest option, there you can easily mask top or bottom parts and crevices. Procedural masks are fast and give more natural look.
    Keep it up! Sculpting is long, but results are rewarding :)
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Hay Karyn! I see, so rather than spending too much time sculpting the arcs individually, I should sculpt half of an arc and duplicate it for both sides?

    And create two tilable textures, one for the top and one for the sides of the bridge? Great advice! I was panicking a little because I wanted to keep alot of the information whilst creating the bridge within moderate time, you know? :D

    I had some problems with the UV Borders showing through the diffuse, so I used the polypaint in MODO to blend it in, I'm definately not happy with these textured boulders, but it's a learning curve I guess haha. I found some awesome references that may help me define my rocks more. 

    Here's one test that Im not happy with. What I will do is create another rock,  using this workflow, but define the edges on my rock and make it more sharp and ''ROCKY''. Thanks!


  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    So I am redesigning me bridge a little with a few tests I have done previously in mind.

    People have given me advice regarding how I could texture the bridge etc.


    My plan is to:
    1. create one tiling texture for the side of the bridge, this would preferably tile in both directions.
    2. create a tiling texture for the top of the bridge, this would have dirt, mud and mossy layers beneath the stone pavings shown in the image below. I would only need to tile this in one direction. I could create single rocks and rubble piles and other rpops to break up the repeating tiles.
    3. create half of an arch in which I can duplicate on both sides of the bridge, I also plan on spending a bit of time learning to create flora and ferns between the rocks to also break up the fact that it's reused assets.
    4. Sculpt the 6 statue-esque rocks individually, however reuse most of the rocky materials to save time.

    Once this is done, I will be designing the layout of the scene itself. I plan on the environment being a forest, which resides in a forest during wartime in a medieval era. I shall be looking at other games and analyzing some environments in their methods of using rivers and streams, and how they create a subtle presence of war. Anyway, one step at a time!





  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    I decided to get my final design and layout for the bridge down before making any more alterations, so I decided to do a rough painting to play with some light. Sometimes, it's nice to just put on some music and draw!


  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    So, I have managed to create a small rock formation that would be attached to the bridge.

    Because I can't afford substance designer/Painter at the moment, I will be making most out of photoshop and the paint feature in MODO to create my Diffuse, normals, AO and spec map. The quality won't be up there compared to using substance designer/painter, but it will give me a chance to go back to basics with texture creation.

    I made a few layers in modo, and found some rock textures that I airbrushed onto the rock, from there I used a mossy texture to add other details. I combined and used some scripts in photoshop to adjust and combine the normals from the bake and the diffuse in which I then created the other maps.

    I need to work more on my UV skills as there are SOME stretched areas where the texture distorts a tiny bit, but most of these areas are unseen.

    here is the result, any feedback would be appreciated: 



    Things to improve:

    1. control the distortion on UVs
    2. produce cleaner diffuse map
    3. learn an efficient and professional workflow for creating spec maps. (tweaking etc)
    4. keep drinking coffee (need to improve this alot)
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    I noticed a lot of problems with the UV map with stretching etc so I decided to re-UV the model. I also created some procedural normal maps and textures for the rock.

    Here are some real time renders in UE4:




  • paco
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    paco polycounter lvl 3
    Unfortunately I can't offer you any constructive advice, but I'm really enjoying this thread. You seem to be making good progress, and more importantly sticking with it. Keep going!
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    @paco Thank you very much paco! Yes I can actually feel myself knowing a little more each time, Im still not happy with the texture workflow I have so I am getting substance designer/Painter, will watch every video possible tonight and then start again with the texturing from scratch and develop that area.

    I don't want to be creating all of the assets using that workflow as it will have bad results, so I will keep practicing  until I finally get a  good result!

    I will keep this thread updated until I finish this project! Which could be a good few months.

    I guess it's all part of getting better! 

    Peace,
    Beardy.
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    I'm having a little bit of trouble with creating believable moss, however I managed to create a more improved rock texture. I painted the texture on but wasn't happy with the the way my moss turned out. I'm going to look into creating realistic Moss substances, so I can paint that onto the rock itself.

    I am debating whether to create all of the rocks need for the scene, bake all the normals and set the scene up ready for texturing. 

    An alternative is creating each asset individually. I may spend all this week just creating all of the assets I want and baking the normals, the reason being that I could then prep all of the folders and crack down on texturing the rocks, the bridge tiling materials and the terrain materials.





    I think, looking at my progress, I need to begin creating all the assets and then I can focus on texturing these, build up a small folder with materials I can re-use and apply them.

    There are 4 rock formations flanking each opening of the arch in the bridge, by creating two, I can reuse them without revealing repetition. Another thing I would like to try with the diffuse on these rocks and the bridge is to apply other colors such as orange mossy specs, all in good time.



  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    I wanted to add some color variation to the model, so I patined a couple layers of moss and yellow/white mold.


  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    I managed to get more feedback from some of the creative community on twitch, as I have been streaming my progress. One of the main things is to vary the surface details/levels of the rocks I am creating, which should prevent them from looking flat. Last night I started the sculpt of the second rock formation and finished a base texture with some little details.

    Here is the normal bake made in MODO:



    Using the same rock material (height, roughness, diffuse) I painted it onto this new model to see how it looks with color etc. I also created a cavity map to show the definitions on the rock.

     

    I am pretty happy with the current progression I have made, but  I can still improve greatly on my sculpting.

    I am going to continue creating the assets for the bridge, as I am interested in how it would all fit together. Using a similar material across most of the rocks will also help with blending it all together.

    Any feedback would be great!

    edit: been getting feedback for this rock....and it looks too much like a penis. I'll get there one day folks xD

    Peace!
    Beardy
  • Bedrock
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    Bedrock polycounter lvl 10
    It looks really wrinkly and nothing like any rock surface I've seen. I've preferred your earlier attempts.

    I would probably just hit up some references. You've researched bridges which is good, but I'd focus more on how rocks look IRL and some existing, high quality rock sculpts you can already see online. It looks like you do a lot of manual brush work, but from my experience less is more: block out the shape and the basic form using dynamesh and hammer/trim brushes, then use some draggable alpha brushes to apply the detail.

    If you post the refs it's also easier to critique your stuff just because we know what you aim for.. there's a lot of rock types out there and they often require a different approach.
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    @Bedrock Thanks man, appreciate the feedback. Yeah, it was a practice to get me out of this 'being too careful' way of sculpting, but I agree it's definitely nothing like any rock haha

    After I posted this, I gathered a crap ton of reference images of the  amount of detail I will be trying to aim for, which I will be working on tonight.

    The next post should be referenced etc.

    Once again, thanks :D 
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    So I stayed up extra late lastnight until the birds started chirping at the break of dawn (need sleep...speaking weird), and given that I am being stubborn to myself albeit a good or bad thing, I wanted to look for ACTUAL ways I can think about creating my rocks. I searched for and found some lovely references, not just from the real world, but also sculpts others have done, which I would like to use to help me with my sculpts.

    Firstly, let's talk rocks! I was thinking about all the feedback from you awesome guys, and I told myself off 'Glenn! USE REFERENCES BRO'. Okay, so here are the ones I found which I will use tonight and get right.



    I want the bold silhouette of these rocks, with the secondary shapes to have a sharper and layered formation one them. I will test more zbrush brushes = trimDynamic > SmoothTrimBorder etc to try and create these cleaner layered shapes. From there, as others have mentioned, I shall look online for some nice alphas to play with after I have created this.

    I feel that in terms of moss, there was an awesome moss tutorial for rocks, in which the artist would create 2-3 layers of polygonal sheets on top of the rock, each with a different texture. I believe the top layers would have an alpha texture. in which would show the darker layers below.

    The only reason I want to try this, is that I have been painting the height onto my model in subtance painter, which is providing a natural look that doesn't look...well...natural.

    It would also be nice to include another alpha layer on the moss for fallen leaves. (it's an option)
    I don't just want to create a rock, with a boring texture and say "TA-DAA'', when i could create a natural looking rock, with not only mold, moss and leaves on it, but also perhaps Fungi growing in some areas and even Ferns sprouting between some cracks. 

    Below: I found this rock in the 'post your rawks' thread, in which I fell in love with the simple form and the way the layers blend naturally to the main bulk of the stone. <3 The diffuse, also being quite simple, I also want to strive to create, and even apply to most of the rocks for the bridge.


    Below: I noticed this on Pinterest, and thought about creating a single tilable texture from a sculpt similar to this. I imagined the rocks and lumps of mud on the sides being flush against the inside of the wall on the bridge itself, in which the softer mud, dirt and gravel along the centre.



    Now! I am always thinking on how I can improve the overall design of the bridge, with the scene in mind. Given that I am still learning programs as I go through this project, I was looking at my bridge thinking 'This is the main focal point of an environment'. Once I asked this myself, I realized the original/current design of the bridge, may not be as impressive as the main asset.

    I searched online for a few references, looking for images with substance, lighting, proportion and design. I found this image below:

    It reassured me that my current bridge is just 'too safe' in terms of design. Games that impress me are the ones that have the coolest environments. So let's see where I can take this!





    I made a quick comparison in not only scale, but also the impact it would have on the scene. By using the image reference I believe the bridge being larger, with a rounder arch prevents the bridge from blending with the land, giving no sense of transition from ground to bridge. Height, is also something I wanted to play with, given that a room looks different when standing on a table. It also transforms the bridge into somewhat of a local landmark to the environment. I also loved the space created underneath the bridge, where I could create some props such as bags or hidden stash or even a TROLL!!! It allows more room to play around with the environment.

    The next post I make, will be me getting the rocks right and referenced to the image above.

    Thanks and again, feedback is awesome!

    Peace,
    Beardy.

  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Okay, so using some references, I decided to create a rock pillar that would be used for the bridge. I wanted to capture the layers features the references above captures. I baked the normal to a low poly mesh (1k tris), and intend to paint on some quick PBR materials to see how the model would look with a smoothness and height information on.

    I think I need to work on 'HOW' to achieve these intended details, in terms of utilizing as much of zbrush possible. 





    I still feel room for improvement, but it's the subtle details such as the secondary layering you see. I will look into adding some more details via substance painter, and see where this model goes.

    Peace
    beardy
  • Carabiner
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    Carabiner greentooth
    Just wanted to say that your 1/29 rock (and the ones you posted today) is a HUGE improvement, imo, from your 1/27 rock. References definitely did you good!
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    @Carabiner Hay! Thank you so much! Working on something every night definitely helps haha and the references also helped alot!

    Are you referring to the Rock cluster I posted on Jan 25th and 28th?

    If you see any room for improvement, I would love to hear!

    Thanks once again!

    Peace,
    Beardy.
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Guys, the more I post in this thread, the more I am wondering if this needs to be renamed/moved to become my Digital. I only think of this, as it is my project/progression thread that I keep updated whenever possible.

    Who could I ask for this to be done, and make this my Digital Sketchbook?

    Peace,
    Beardy
  • Beard3D Bandit
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    Beard3D Bandit polycounter lvl 7
    Hay guys! The past couple of weeks have been crazy busy, but I managed to stay up late to get some of the sculpts finished. I just need to retopo the high poly arch stones and the two halves of the bridge wall stones.

    Here is what I have at the moment. I wanted the stones to be more bulky and rounder, so that's the direction I wanted. I believe it emphasizes the medieval fantasy theme. I also fell in love witht he Brazier design I found on Pinterest, and rather than using rocks to flank the bridge entrance, I wanted to use Braziers to light up the bridge ends.


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