Question for people in industry, has 3D got boring for you?
polycounter lvl 8
I have a quick question. We had a guest speaker at my college today who works in the video game industry, and he explained how his passion and true love for 3d was destroyed after multiple years on the job. He stated that once you do it for a living, you lose it as a hobby because your literally doing it 40 hours a week minimum
Right now i'm in love with 3d, but i've only been doing it for a couple years... i don't want to be 35 sitting at my desk like why did i go into 3d, i should've just done this... or that... etc...
so my question is, (ideally for people in the industry)
Have you lost anywhat interest in 3d once you worked for years in the industry? Do you still do it as a hobby and not just work?
Right now i'm in love with 3d, but i've only been doing it for a couple years... i don't want to be 35 sitting at my desk like why did i go into 3d, i should've just done this... or that... etc...
so my question is, (ideally for people in the industry)
Have you lost anywhat interest in 3d once you worked for years in the industry? Do you still do it as a hobby and not just work?
Replies
It depends on content I find, If I'm making something that's my idea, then it's ace, if I'm making something from someone else's concept, then it's cool and great if it's something I'm really invested/passionate about; on the flip side, if I'm modelling loads of similar things then it can become a bit tedious.
I also find time constraints a bit frustrating. To try to cure my personal creative itch I tend to work on my own stuff in my own time
At the end of the day I'm getting paid to make stuff for games and that is bloody awesome, I love it >:D
Could also be that you get promoted to like VFX sup or studio head or something like that, in which case you don't even get to do some of that, and you spend all your time with leads and sups and studio people and publisher people and such, instead of the actual artists.
The above means that if you could just sit down and do some actual work, it'd be the best damn thing ever and you'd never get bored.
Unless you're really bad at your stuff so you don't get promoted to lead/sup, with which case I'm not that familiar with. Maybe you can get bored that way, eventually?
I leave and come back to it, i mean you love what you love and though a lot of designs clash (and i hate that more than anything) you just have to keep creating them.
I am trying to not sound like an ass here but seriously i bet some might just be saying what they are saying to save face and their jobs. I don't mean anyone that has already posted, I mean all around before and perhaps after, though who's to know who's lying, ya know..I am saying it is a possibility with today's times and all.
I do not work in 3D for $$$ much anymore, i used to but since i learned they love the new comers more than an older more knowledgeable (in the sense of the inner workings) individual they would rather have a fresh employee so to speak.
At least this is what has been said on this very forums on an off a few times, though i don't know if they removed those comments or threads, again to save face.
Best of luck, if you don't love it think about and maybe dream about it like i did last night for some odd reason and wake up at 4:00 AM to draw out a design you had in mind then i don't think this is for you as a career move.
I am doing what i am doing now cause it is way easier (in a way) and i am always moving and out and about and when i can actually go sit down to dabble in creating something i can fully appreciate it like i always had before i landed in the "job" market, 'Ala' be a kid again and get all giddy about making something i thought was awesome.
games take way too much work to make now. i think it would be a lot less dull if asset creation was more like it was in the ps2 era: low poly model, unwrap, texture, done. you used to be able to fly through things. now we need to make crazy detailed high poly models, low poly, unwrap, bake, and texture possibly many high res textures, all for one single asset. it's draining and doesn't have any real gameplay benefits.
ultimately, it's just a job and should be treated like one. it doesn't have to be your "life's calling" or whatever.
i have also rejected quite a few lead roles in high profile studios mainly because i love making art more than telling people to make art.
either way you have to visualize yourself in future, what do you see yourself doing.
may be the day i get really tired and bored i will looks for a lead/management role but i honestly dont see that day any time soon. i might just retire before i do that.
This.
Working in games is like being a chef. You do it for the love of it, because there's not a lot of other compelling reasons.
Also I do think part of it is because the modeling tools are so bad these days. Autodesk programs are a joke, relics from 10 years ago that have barely evolved while the art requirements have skyrocketed. I enjoy texturing much more now that we get great solutions like Substance Designer; I'm not lying when i say that has brought back my enjoyment for art in a way.
Instead of 3D I know do much more scripting and workflow stuff. Taught myself python the past year, which I feel is much more useful and enjoyable.
Yeah so true. I'm back to using 3dsmax again at work and I fking loath that program. What a truely horrendous uncreative workflow backwards program.
The only reason it's being used is because people are so used to it, but it's time for a serious update altogether.
maya isn't even much better.
Softimage was the last time I actually enjoyed a modeling package... while zbrush is in a whole league of its own for imo something truely freeform and adding to the creative process and creation of assets.
Anyways yeah, autodesk has not moved this industry forward in terms of making their software better.
So as for the topic, 3d modeling is great fun but when I get home I paint and draw. I don't know 100% why, I keep telling myself to make 3d models and put together some sort of game prototype, but I end up painting instead.
I think if my job was painting I'd do the opposite, and 3d model at home, or sculpt or whatever.
Honestly, working on someone else's creative vision in your professional medium; seems to burn you over time.
You want to expand your skill set in the direction of your personal creative interests, and when you're contracted to do something else all day, you tend to look at the entire profession as a job, instead of your creative outlet.
That's me anyways, I'm sure a lot of people break that mold
wait this might be a different issue altogether... oh well. 2cents in
actually - besides the creative aspect let's not forget that the working environment is also quite laid back, colleagues are often likeminded and collaborative and office-politics and hierarchy rather low-key.
having been on the inside of a bank for a while (the 'real' kind of job people love to refer to all the time) i think i can make a comparison in strong favour of the games industry here.
One thing that keeps me fresh and sane is the steady output of stress free personal work. I mix it up with 2d and 3d depending on my mood. I ensure personal projects are only ever for fun and for me
"passion" isn't a good reason to accept substandard working practices. accepting that as a standard part of your career is unfair, regardless of what you do for a living. it's not right.
(bit of a tangent, sorry. just don't like how everyone excuses how many awful unfair problems there are in the game industry because it's their "passion")
don't kill yourself to do something you love as your primary job, you'll burn out or run into other problems and hate it eventually. if you can do something else you don't hate and being fairly rewarded for your work, allowing ample time and resources to pursue interests you love on the side, i think that's where you want to be.
:thumbup: Like.
When I do any career style talks to students, I try and put across the difference between a job and a career. If just want a 'job', that's relatively easy, you can get one anywhere. But if you entering the games industry because you 'love' it, or you feel its a 'calling', then you're in it for the long term, you're starting your career. A career that will hopefully be long, but will have some ups and downs.
I remember a talk I attended years ago, and the guy spoke alot about jobs and careers and working in general. I recall he put people into three groups:
The people who get to do what they truly love for a job are the lucky ones; and they are the minority.
Alot of people are pretty content with what they do, (depending what it is) they might not be perhaps overly passionate about it, but they're generally ok. This probably accounts for the majority of people.
Then a there's a third group of people who really dont like what they do. They range from the slightly grumpy to the downright bitter and miserable.
Your goal is to avoid being in that third group.
Of course, that isn't always possible or realistic and there are many factors that can come into play. For some, you might have to be the third group just to get by and funds important stuff, like rent, food, etc.
But i think if you can aim for the first group, whilst staying in the second, then you aren't doing too bad.
I often see people advising do what you love and/or 'always have passion' and that might be ok, but I find that type of advice, in some ways useless. We're all very different and what makes people people happy at work, won't be the same for everyone.
But if you can find a way to turn what you love doing, into something that makes you a living, go for it. If you get yourself into that first group, then you're one of the lucky ones.
Another thing to note, is that the people who earn a living doing what they love, didnt necessarily start out on that path. It developed over time, as their career progressed and they might not have predicted how things worked out. At various points of you working life, you'll be faced with choices and decisions. The choices you make have to be what you feel is right for you and where you want to go. Of course your age and the amount of responsibility you might have, will effect those decisions.
You want to make sure youre doing something that youre good at, something that brings you a good and reasonable amount of satisfaction, and something that can earn you a living. But its okay for the things that you really feel passionate about to be things you do outside of work, if it works for you.
* I won't get too involved into the Autodesk comments made, as it would derail the thread. However its worth noting that alot of other (non-ADSK) software is equally old, so in some ways they're all getting on a bit. :-)
But personally I don't think software and the tools you use have a real baring here. If you're miserable in your job, then changing software isn't perhaps going to solve that underlying problem.
I don't think its backwards at all, Max is probably one of the best modelers I've used and I've tried out a few apps (Maya being my main app, Softimage and Modo are cool too.) I'm interested to know exactly how you would like to improve it (or them,) if given the choice... although again this could be personal preference, what works for some might not work so great for others, etc.
Don't mind me, I'm just grumpy because it's somewhere north of 100 degrees Farenheit and I'm sitting here with the worlds noisiest desk fan and a wet towel on my head.
As for the tools ... yeah, I mean, Max is old but what it gets the job done. I use it every day and I can make art for our current games just fine. Like anything else, it's familiarity and getting your working environment fine tuned to play how you want it to.
Modo is nicer, and once Mesh Fusion ships I'll probably use it a lot more, but at the end of the day polygons are polygons and triangles always have 3 sides.
Example off the top of my head ... collapsing a Turbosmooth with Isoline Display turned on irrevocably destroys your mesh. It's done this for as long as I've been working in games. WHY?! There's no warning, no recovery, and your mesh is ruined. Show me that you care and FIX IT.
Another quick one ... let me bind "Bridge" to a key. Seriously.
As far as modeling tools, I think Max's suite of tools is great. I never really find myself wishing for anything major to be added there.
If I had to pick something, I would love to see them change SwiftLoop to have a few options like Modo does. Stuff like inserting a mirrored loop on the other side of the quad is nice.
I think your working environment has alot to do with it. For me I've chosen specific jobs and studio's, I'm now part of a medium sized studio I help setup and it's been 100% rewarding for the past 3 years.
You've made the decision to follow your passion for art through into a career over regular jobs so why settle for anything less than what you want to do while in that career. True money and experience are needed at the start but if you keep climbing with that dream on the horizon you'l make it happen.
But sure some parts are more tedious than others, I enjoy texturing the most and it inmind being towards the end of the process helps me push through the less fun optimizing of the lowpoly meshes etc.
I guess what it may come down to is just having a clear idea of what you want to do with and or in your career.
really ? i would think that hand painting and hand sculpting be more fun and fulfilling and less boring than using tools like substance designer or ddo etc. it might just be a programmer vs artist thing.
Yeah might be because it speaks to my techy side much more, but also allows me to automate and streamline process that I experience as tedious.
See it's things like when I model highpoly hardsurface, you still have to micromanage edges and polygons, avoid pinches, bla bla. i know how to do that perfectly, but it gets old after doing it hunderds of times. Or how you often have to create the same sort of detail again for a new model, and there's no proper, easy way to share and reuse pieces. It's not the creative part of the process, there's no fulfillment in it. Zbrush is an example of how for organic stuff it can be different: it allows you to focus on just creating.
I think it was hazardous who once said that he wishes for a tool that removes all the non-creative steps from the process. The steps that don't require any creative input just detract from actually creating art. Things like lowpoly topology, UV's, baking, annoying things when texturing, etc...
Substance does just that btw, it removes almost all those shitty things you have to put up with when texturing, such as having to paste in your baked normalmap every time again, and then re-running your cavity map filter, or how you need to duplicate and adust a layer into your specular every time you edit the diffuse, etc. It doesn't have to detract from the artistic aspect of texturing, though you can take very technical approaches instead (and it is a bit more technical just by nature)
yeah max is legit straight forward, my new love is maya, but I think its silly to disregard any sort of tool, especially when its still used, sure its basic principles are old as fuck, and have remained that way likely for a good reason, there have been plenty of competitors and complimentary software but theres a reason autodesk has remained strong.
I can really get how some people just want to make coolshit, but for me its the blending of the technical and artistic which makes it so consistently interesting.
well i was talking mainly about hand painting and hand sculpting, but i get what you are saying.
regarding SD, i agree that it automates lot of the repeatation and redundancy in workflow but for what it adds it seems to take away lot more. i mean those things you mentions doesnt even bother me that much because 80% of what i do in photoshop is still impossbile in any texturing software and i say that after lot f research on many different texturing tools.
but back to the original posters topic, i think if you are not interested in actually making art then any part of the process can seem non-creative or tedious to you personally.
even if you are hand painting something you are constantly repeating the similar logic regarding shading, colors, details etc. you will be repeating the same shading process again and again on everyhing and if you dont enjoy it then it will be tedious. everybody will have their little tedious part.
personally, i love doing UV layout, it is like a small puzzle game
i love doing retopology too and baking too.
only part that i dont like is waiting too long for bakes or rendering, or slow performance during sculpting or a file taking too long to save or export. but these are external issue that are out of our control in most cases.
if you dont like what you are doing, then re-assess yourself. you might just like the idea of being an artists but not really like making the art. i know lot of people who force themselves to be artists but it is painfully obvious that they are not natural at it and at the core of it they dont really LOVE what they do.
Example: My Father has changed hobbies every 4-7 years. He's wind surfed, played in a band, read the bible, surfed, archery, etc, etc. He just hits a saturation point with something and moves on. I dunno maybe it's a plateau that he doesn't like to overcome. Maybe it's mastery of something and moving on.
As you get older you get a family, friends, hobbies (not games), and split your time outside of work. There are only so many hours in the day. Our industry is different than most. You need a portfolio to get a job. So you need to maintain and continue to refine and develop those skills.
Personally I love sculpting, concept painting, and texture painting.
That said after hours I try to do a mix of sketching (actually sketching on paper), sculpting, or whatever I'm into at the moment. Yes I still do this as a hobby. Though I don't set rules or specifics for it outside of work.
you'll never get board because the traditional principals are there in any medium. i don't give a shit about the hammer but i do care what i can do with it (within reason, good tools are helpful). i just happen to use the craft of 3d to learn art. when you become more experienced the tediousness of the process tends to fade and the artistic principals start shining though, at least for me and a few that ive talked to. just my 2 cents though, all of our brains are wired a little different. so its most likely a measure of man question. i think everyone is bringing ups some good valuable advice, or perspectives.
That's why I'm going indie! I like lower-poly stuff with lots of painting.
hi-five!
Which my workflow also reflects when making a new environment:
1. Set the Art Direction (what I want it to look like, inspirations and such)
2. Make most of the shader-work to be able to support that Art Direction
3. Create all the basic textures I need
4. Model stuff and apply textures.
5. Start putting shit in the environment to get a sense of colors, lighting and composition.
6. Finish the rest.
That's it basically. I just love doing that, the modeling part is a very tiny part of that. Spending 2 weeks on one prop isn't really my thing unless it's a very unique one. 2 weeks of quick props, nice texture-work, art composition, colors and layout of the map, that's way more fun to me and I feel that it's time better spent and more in line with what I do for a living. Environment Art.
I like next-gen rendering though. Not necessarily physically-based stuff but rather how many lights you can show, higher resolutions, no lightmaps, dynamic global illumination.
I feel that realistic games will become very boring to do in the future. Scanned textures, super realistic shading with very little art direction other than "copy what you see in real-life".
Realistic graphics are impressive and challenging in their own right but the ultimate creative dream (for me anyway) is to visualise and produce exactly what you desire, for example using texture in a scene to influence the mood and not just faithfully recreate the properties of a surface.
With the improvement overall in real time graphics of current gen machines I can't wait for say a next gen Darksiders type game.
I still do personal art in my free time but no where nearly as much. Now its more left to art things that I find interesting and when I need to scratch that itch. Where as before it was always about learning more and more and just making the next highpoly asset, lowpoly and texture.
There are so many things I enjoy doing with my free time now than just making more 3d art. Like photography, hanging out with friends, snowboarding, racing my car, playing video games and so forth. I also think avoiding just constantly doing personal art keeps work fresh for me as I love everyday. But I understand some people who just want to do art all day everyday. I have friends like that and more power too them if thats how they want to live there lives.
That being said, i find it really hard sometimes to see myself pushing polygons til i'm 65 years old.
That ^
Softimage works on a basis of hotkeys for modeling which changed my opinion about how modeling should work.
3ds max for example has good linear logic and its tools are robust as hell, but having to click and adapt hotkeys (or hot keys that change constantly wtf), having no advanced snapping tools, an interface design that is incredibly noisy and cluttered... it's not what I want to work with as an artist. I want speed, efficiency and everything that enables immediate feedback as to my actions.
Modifier stacks are awesome for complexity control, but suck for workflow speed and feedback.
The ultimate 3d modeling package I had in mind would be entirely designed around hot key management so I'd have to jump to ui interface as little as possible. I'd also like to see more robust modeling tools like I'm seeing in diamant tools and modo and other things.
My program would probably totally piss off technical oriented people though lol. :poly127: