Proportions & Zbrush Practise
![[Deleted User]](https://polycount.com/themes/polycount/design/default-avatar.gif){kind=avatar}
Hello,
After recent events it was highlighted that my observational, proportional and Zbrush skills needed work, polish and fine tuning. THAT is what I will be working on in this post.
In early January I have free time and took the chance to work on these issues.
I will be creating a character, more or less, from scratch within Zbrush. I will be using Zsphere (largely for first time) to create a base mesh and then with the 3D model fine tune sub division by subdivision in order to create the specific character.
I also plan on rigging using 3DS Max's CAT, animating within 3DS Max and getting him into the Unreal Engine, but the priority is to study anatomy and proportions for sculpting and work on observational skills.
MOST ANNOYINGLY, as I was creating this post I could see probably a dozen changes to the character. So I see changes ALREADY. Annoying how I am never truly satisfied with current progress...
NOTE: I did not draw the concept drawing below.
Will be creating THIS character:
Firstly, because I had time, opportunity and drive the decision was made to create some base meshes of some animals using ZSpheres only. In order to practise observational skills and get a stronger grip of using Zspheres.
Frankly I would like to create base meshes straight in ZBrush, rather than in 3DS Max.
Again, MOST ANNOYINGLY, as I was creating this post I could see probably a dozen changes to the character. So I see changes ALREADY. Annoying how I am never truly satisfied with current progress...
Using only the default amount of polygons obtained, and subsequently the lowest subdivision level, created my first iteration of the character.
Straight away I can see changes:
After recent events it was highlighted that my observational, proportional and Zbrush skills needed work, polish and fine tuning. THAT is what I will be working on in this post.
In early January I have free time and took the chance to work on these issues.
I will be creating a character, more or less, from scratch within Zbrush. I will be using Zsphere (largely for first time) to create a base mesh and then with the 3D model fine tune sub division by subdivision in order to create the specific character.
I also plan on rigging using 3DS Max's CAT, animating within 3DS Max and getting him into the Unreal Engine, but the priority is to study anatomy and proportions for sculpting and work on observational skills.
MOST ANNOYINGLY, as I was creating this post I could see probably a dozen changes to the character. So I see changes ALREADY. Annoying how I am never truly satisfied with current progress...
NOTE: I did not draw the concept drawing below.
Will be creating THIS character:
Firstly, because I had time, opportunity and drive the decision was made to create some base meshes of some animals using ZSpheres only. In order to practise observational skills and get a stronger grip of using Zspheres.
Frankly I would like to create base meshes straight in ZBrush, rather than in 3DS Max.
Again, MOST ANNOYINGLY, as I was creating this post I could see probably a dozen changes to the character. So I see changes ALREADY. Annoying how I am never truly satisfied with current progress...
Using only the default amount of polygons obtained, and subsequently the lowest subdivision level, created my first iteration of the character.
Straight away I can see changes:
- Unsure about the length of the arms.
- The fingers feel too long.
- The fingers, especially middle finger, feel too pointy.
- The shoulders seem disconnected from the torso.
- Unsure about how the front & back of neck join the torso.
- The torso seems too thin.
- Shoulders still need to be wider than the hips.
- Thighs feel too big, too musclar.
- Meant to bend the fingers more so so nicer for the animation stage.
Replies
The main differences are there are less zspheres, stuck a lot closer to the proportions of the concept artwork rather than ideal proportions and added zspheres on the head to create the topology for the face itself later on.
What I used to do was use the zspheres to define bone layout and then muscle composition- despite the muscles could be sculpted in. I also thought that the face could be sculpted in entirely, but knew I needed more polygons to use. By adding the new zspheres in they create the topology as well as the density needed.
This video was recommended to he is doing a similar pipeline to me, so there is reason enough to pay heed to the video and the knowledge I can learn from it. [ame="
Will look back at this later on today; in case I see some things worth changing with proportions, then will begin the rough sculpting process again.
My main issue is the length of the arms, they feel slightly too long, despite it seems that the palm and fingers will reach between knee and hip.
I think the concept artwork is not very ideal either. He seems old, but has still got broad shoulders, yet his mouth is very long (why the long face?), his collar bone is very prominent, very big ears and a very long neck, not to mention he has no grey hair.
Began to realise that it is better using a nude human as reference. Will use that method a lot more in the future.
Frankly, my presentation skills needed upgrading. Quick google search results in all sort of things.
[ame="
Also, because I really enjoy using ZBrush now I have began to create another character for another project I am involved in- unrelated to this.
Double check your "Ideal Proportions Male" (that's an Andrew Loomis illustration, btw. You should probably look into his Figure Drawing work and educational materials) and observe closely the curvatures that he makes and the curvatures that your model currently does not have. Match the sculpt to the drawing.
It's looking stiff right now, like your Roman solider from earlier.
Think curves. Think gesture. Think C and S lines, not boxes and lines. There is motion in these mortal forms, and you have to nail them at a low subdivision before you commit to subdividing.
Also, do you see how if you were to see the second character as a real figure in life that it would just keel over because its weight is not balanced? Take care with your T Pose gesture. Never, EVER assume animation and rigging will fix mistakes you make as a Character Artist. Straighten it out, give it proper weighting so it doesn't look like it will fall over.
Getting happy with the form, a few things worth changing. Shape of shins, curvature of areas like torso and, especially, aspects of face.
This is how I see. I do notice and recognise the shape and curvature of Humans. Frankly, I think in the future I will have to create the base mesh 3DS Max to get him aligned to reference THEN sculpt him.
I was thinking that the relaxed pose helped with how animation deformed the mesh when animated. Clearly an T pose (or A pose?) with straight arms, legs and hands is better. Right?
With Dynamesh, it takes away the inadequacies of working directly from a ZSphere.
Once you have a generally block out with ZSpheres...Dynamesh it to give a better more predictable frame.
Move Brush then becomes your best friend in tweaking the base.
Notice how I have not mentioned sculpting yet.
In ZBrush, 90% of a successful scult is the block out and pose stage, 7% is the clay brush stage, 2% is the Finessing/smoothing and basic detail stage...and the last 1% is the high detail high subdivision stage.
I agree! I have begun to notice these of which you talk about!
Found a tutorial that talks in detail about the processes.
Went back to 1st subdivision and dynameshed the entire thing, that way I had the proportions yet denser topology to get detail in.
What I am essentially aiming to do now is getting the volume in starting from the bottom (and building up).
Using different tools and methods to get what I see from anatomy observation from places like http://anatomy4sculptors.com/
I think in the future I will model the base mesh in 3DS Max, to get the proprtions sorted easier, then begin this process in ZBrush (which I am quite liking a lot).
Also, what I try to accommodate is the deformation in the animation by bending the elbows slightly. In the future I will either go for A or T pose with straight arms and legs, however I was told that bending the fingers is a good idea because it helps with animation deformation instead of straight ones. Is this a good school of though, to bend the fingers?
It's your form and overall gesture your silhouette as a whole makes. Nail them down before you commit to higher resolution geometry. Right now you are way too high up insubdivisions before you get to move forward.
Then Retopologize to make a more animator friendly mesh where you can put the loops where you want them to go.
After that you'll be transferring the high poly sculpt detail to the new low poly mesh via XNormal or something similiar.
In Addition, If you want to create textures you'll need an unwrap as well.
There is no right way to go through this process...you have to find it for your own unfortunately.
I understand what you are saying, but please be a little more specific.
Do the shoulders not go back enough? Is the S bend through legs not prominant enough? Are the knees too forward?
The character is lined up to Loomis' Male proportion chart.
But please, please, expand on what you mean.
I understand and, frankly, this is the process I use already.
Discovered a tool in ZBrush called "qRemesher", this this a good tool to get a quick retop in ZBrush?
Normally use Step Build in the Freeform tab in the graphite modelling tool bar in Max. Although I control the topology and get the loops in, it is a slow process. Is there a quick way to do it in Zbrush?
Bent the fingers and such because it seemed friendlier on the deformation. Will change that for the future.
Retopologizing in ZBrush can be messy, but the newer remesher tools will help to correct the edgeflow to continue sculting a better looking mesh.
The Graphite tools are fine for retopo. I finally picked up Topogun as many other's here had raved about it. It's excellent. At your stage though, I would suggest using the graphite tools and even on simple shapes trying out the ZBrush retopo tool.
I would also recommend Mike Jensens tutorials for learning more about working within ZBrush.
Thanks, I will look into Mike Jensens too.
I am using 4R4, I do not know how old that is but nonetheless it does the job.
Fine tuning aspects of the structure. Aimed to get the areas that define the silhouette and create detail from a distance.
Next aiming to sort out the anatomy and structure, then get the skin surface detail in.
Are you looking at other reference besides the Andrew Loomis drawing?
These aren't T-poses, but seeing the muscle groups from various angles may get you a better understanding of where your smaller internal forms need to be: http://www.quickposes.com/library/view/user_uploads_m_nude NSFW
This might also help: http://justmeina.deviantart.com/art/orthographic-PACK-39261525?offset=10 NSFW
Stuck close to http://anatomy4sculptors.com/ for the anatomy and muscle groups.
This http://www.anatronica.com/systems.html also comes in useful, but not used as much as anatomy for sculptors.
Thanks for those picture, they will come in useful- especially the poses because shows muscles throughout the body in different poses and gestures.
Some people were talking about silhouette, and it doesn't seem like your understood the concept. I've made a picture for you, using the legs as an example.
Look at how much Loomis silhouette and muscles are flowing, following 'S' curves. Yours is not much far, but the curves are broken and it break the silhouette. Same thing for the arms, and other parts of the body.
If you can start by matching as much as possible the overall silhouette of every body part, on every view possible, you would have a great start to go further.
It seems like you want to learn, which is great, and i'm pretty sure with some more time you can match these silhouette. You started working on some muscles definition, but i think it's not time yet for you to got into these details. Overall shape is still to correct.
To help you see your silhouette, you can change the matcap to Flat Color sometime between brush strokes, will help you to see your lines way more than keeping the standard matcap, since no shading will distract your eye.
I have a stronger idea about what you mean by the curves
I did feel he looked odd, but did not think to look at the silhouette.
What I am thinking of doing for the future is to create the mesh in 3DS Max where all the proportions have been built, where I can get the reference image into the software easier. Ensuring the curves and such are in 3DS Max.
Ensuring there are enough polygons to use and work within ZBrush and then create the muscle tones and surface detail in ZBrush.
Also, creating the mesh in 3DS Max means I can sort the scale easier.
Having trouble getting references images into ZBrush so in the future will resort to creating the mesh in 3DS Max and importing into ZBrush.
However, I noticed that alot of the features that I have tried to create are not entirley 100% accurate:
the chest, for instances is too forward, the torso needs narrowing slightly along with the hips
Alot of the areas were too fat and need thinning down.
Some of it can be seen here: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1991423#post1991423
The things learnt on here are being transmitted onto a new project, found here:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1997439#post1997439
However, I will return to this character in the future.