Gun modelling edge flow questions
Hello everyone. I've been modelling my very first gun and I'm trying to make only quads. I'm finding it very hard, though.
One example is here: http://i.imgur.com/M1qrngy.png?1?8559 I chamfered the aiming thing to make it round, but now I got a 10-gon or something. So I used the cut tool to try making them into quads: http://i.imgur.com/OIb8AxE.png?1 Only problem is now the poly below and the one to the right are not quads anymore. Should I do this: http://i.imgur.com/r1YUzYq.png?1 and then for the other side, too?
And say I used proboolean to cut a hole into my model. The hole looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/VEMUQcL.png?1 . The surrounding poly is obviously far from a quad. Should I make it a quad by connecting all the vertices like this: http://i.imgur.com/x5Xcw14.png?1 , and so on?
Also, does it matter if one vertex on your edges is higher than the other?
Let's say you're modelling a gun like this: http://i.imgur.com/9xhLg0l.jpg?1 . The left side needs to stay smooth but the right side has some curves. Should you start adding the curves like this(just an example): http://i.imgur.com/epla8rv.jpg?1 ? Or should you create new edges and just do this: http://imgur.com/9xhLg0l&epla8rv&9mbOxzs#2 instead, so the edges are still even?
Sorry for the long post but I put a lot of effort into it because I'm not comfortable modelling my gun until I know these things for sure. I hope someone can answer my questions.
One example is here: http://i.imgur.com/M1qrngy.png?1?8559 I chamfered the aiming thing to make it round, but now I got a 10-gon or something. So I used the cut tool to try making them into quads: http://i.imgur.com/OIb8AxE.png?1 Only problem is now the poly below and the one to the right are not quads anymore. Should I do this: http://i.imgur.com/r1YUzYq.png?1 and then for the other side, too?
And say I used proboolean to cut a hole into my model. The hole looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/VEMUQcL.png?1 . The surrounding poly is obviously far from a quad. Should I make it a quad by connecting all the vertices like this: http://i.imgur.com/x5Xcw14.png?1 , and so on?
Also, does it matter if one vertex on your edges is higher than the other?
Let's say you're modelling a gun like this: http://i.imgur.com/9xhLg0l.jpg?1 . The left side needs to stay smooth but the right side has some curves. Should you start adding the curves like this(just an example): http://i.imgur.com/epla8rv.jpg?1 ? Or should you create new edges and just do this: http://imgur.com/9xhLg0l&epla8rv&9mbOxzs#2 instead, so the edges are still even?
Sorry for the long post but I put a lot of effort into it because I'm not comfortable modelling my gun until I know these things for sure. I hope someone can answer my questions.
Replies
Thank you for the reply! I thought about doing that but what if I need to re-attach it later? Would it still be considered good edge flow? If I re-attached it, it would be the same as it was before I made it into a separate object so I'd think it would still be the same, wouldn't it?
Thank you for your comment but honestly, what good would that do? It's not like I'm going to magically find out how to fix this problem by starting with easier objects. I already know how to make edges, I'm just asking for advice on methods of doing things. I'd think that said advice would come from people more experienced than me.
The boolean will have to be cleaned up until it can subdivide without problem as well.
Thank you for your reply! I'm using 3DS Max. I googled strip modelling but the only good resource I found was this: http://www.maxforums.org/threads/strip_modeling/0002.aspx thread which didn't really do much in telling me what it actually is.
I understand that I may be in over my head, but I've already watched tutorials on hard surface modelling and another on modelling a gun. I feel like I know the basics already, I just need some advice on getting good edge loops. I really don't feel like modelling smaller things would help.
This is what I currently have: http://i.imgur.com/2W2cf2S.png?1?5905 .
I could start modelling smaller things but could you first tell me why I need to do something smaller than this gun and how modelling smaller things would help?
Because you first need to learn how to walk before you can run.
You say you know the basics but it doesn't look like it from your shots. There are many things wrong with your model. I would go as far to say it would be best to start over again with that hammer.
Starting with smaller things makes it easier to correct mistakes and try out different approaches. And it's easier for others to give you beginner help.
My advice would be to start off with an oil drum. A seemingly easy object but even that can pose some big problems to a beginner when it comes to making a cage and baking the normals. But once you've figured that out you are ready to model barrels for guns or any cylindric shape really. Likewise you get valuable experience for other more complex gun parts by doing other seemingly simple props for practice.
Such experience is important because without it you just create a mess that is hard to fix.
Thank you very very much! Thanks to everybody else, too! I understand now. I'll start modelling smaller things before I model a gun, starting with a barrel. Now that I think about it, it would probably speed up my Unwrapping & Texturing progress, too!
But getting back to the original post... That is too dense of a chamfer and when you do chamfer you need to consider the other sides and if they will round out or not.
It really depends on what type of end result you want and what software you're using. There are a lot of ways to pull this off in a lot of different apps. It looks like 3dsmax? So in max a pretty common technique is to build a lower poly cage that subdivides and smooths well. You don't necessarily build the model as dense as a final high poly model. So instead of using a chamfer cranked up really high, you create control loops and a support structure to help it hold its shape when it gets a whole lot denser.
"Subdivision Surface" in Editable Poly is one way out of many to help you see the subdivided final high poly result while working on the low poly cage. Turn on "Use NURMS Subdivision" in EDITABLE Poly, this doesn't show up in EDIT POLY modifiers, so it does restrict the way you model in some regards, also be careful if you collapse your stack it will leave you with the final high poly with no way to get back to the low poly, except for undo.
Notice the orange cage has control loops around the corners, if they were not there it would round out when it subdivided.
No Control Loops:
The tighter the control edges are, the sharper the corners are.
That isn't the only way to work with subdivision modeling, you can also toss a "TurboSmooth Modifier" on top of your modifier stack and toggle it on and off (little light bulb) to see how the lower poly model will smooth when it subdivides. There are a few other ways along with a bunch of tips and tricks that you end up with when you really dig into subdivision modeling, it takes anywhere from a few months to a few years to master, but once you wrap your head around some core principles it starts to get easier.
The corner being as dense as it is, causes way too many problems. Like Perna said you should start with a much more simple shape.
Instead of focusing on how one corner rounds out, you also need to keep in mind how the other edges will smooth. You need to route your loops with that in mind. I don't think you should separate the sight from the rest of the model, but blend it smoothly into the model, unless it is actually another separate piece on the physical object.
(This probably isn't the best example and you probably shouldn't copy it exactly but it gets the point across...)
That smooth transition can be a bit problematic when figuring out where your loops go but often you can use it to terminate loops that might run down the length of your model. That smooth transition looks a lot better than a harsh 90 degree angle. If you separate it on the low poly but have the smooth transition on the high, it won't bake right, it will give you a seam. It's just better to keep cases like this, one contiguous mesh, most of the time. That's not to say you can't float things, you can, but you have to know how it will affect the rest of the pipeline and you do that through trail and error. But I agree with Perna that you need to focus on the basics of modeling.
Probooleans can be great, but they can get messy pretty quick if you aren't careful.
For something like a cylindrical hole or extrude in a flat surface I would do something a bit like this:
You can do that, but it might cause problems later on, the best way is to try it out, find its strengths and weaknesses and come up with a work around if you hit a problem. There will be points that decisions made earlier will totally screw you over making your life miserable, you work around it or put in the time to fix it and learn not to do that again. All of the pros have had plenty of "oh crap shouldn't have done that" moments.
Also... I don't want to knock high poly modeling because it is an incredible skill to have and a practiced pro can slam out great looking assets all day long. But you might want to check out other tools and how they approach high poly modeling, programs like Modo have some pretty good tools and the interface can be a bit easier to work with.
Max is one of the better modeling tools around but it's starting to show its age and their attempts to overhaul the interface have left it a bit disjointed.
ZBrush has some pretty decent hard surface sculpting tools. ZBrush especially has made some pretty large leaps over the last few releases with regard to hard surface sculpting. Its almost to the point that an artist can sit down and in a few weeks learn how to do hard surface sculpt in zbrush, where learning hard surface modeling in max or maya would take months or years.
I don't think its a replacement for actual hard surface modeling skill because any studio hiring someone to do hard surface work will want modeling skill. But it can get the job done pretty quickly and it can handle some pretty complex shapes without breaking your brain trying to figure out where to route loops and control smoothing.
Boom you're done! That was pretty easy, now on to the next model! :poly123:
Wow. I'm blown away by your answer! The reason I asked is because I thought that it might have been considered as a generally bad thing to do. Like having anything above quads. Two tutorials I've watched on hard surface modelling were largely based on using modifiers like mesh smooth and turbosmooth so I know a little bit about using control loops.
One question though, it seems you're suggesting that I should most use a smoothing solution to make the iron sights, instead of making a dense chamfer. But if I used a smoothing solution and the iron sights were attached to my gun, wouldn't my whole gun have to be smoothed?
Also, I don't understand what the smooth transitions you were talking about actually were. Did you mean the edges surrounding the sights?
As for your alternative to the proboolean, that could definitely come in handy! I had no idea you could chamfer vertices like that.
Thank you very much for your answer, it was really informative and even though I'm going to start modelling smaller things, you answered the questions I had. I'm actually learning to model because I want to make games with unity, so I don't know if what you said about Zbrush would still apply or not.
http://cg.tutsplus.com/tutorials/autodesk-3d-studio-max/model-a-detailed-high-poly-fire-hydrant-in-3ds-max/
Thank you very much for the response! I think I know what you mean by strip modelling. Is this strip modelling?
Also, this is my fifth or so model. I spend a lot of time watching tutorials that people recommended me to watch and they helped a lot. I guess I thought I was finally ready to make a gun. What you said about problems stacking up is very true. It came to a certain point when modelling this gun where I dreaded opening 3DS Max to finish it because I knew that a lot of things were wrong and I didn't feel comfortable going any further, which is why I asked this question.
As for what you said about not concerning myself with anything but modelling, I already learned how to Unwrap and all I have to do for normal maps is put the UV Map into crazybump. Although I think you're right about the low polys and making a high poly then baking it into the low poly and all that jazz, I really don't want to worry about that right now.
In that case then, I'd also suggest focusing on modeling for now.
Put more research into normal maps (here's a good start: http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap) and put projection into consideration for another piece as it's not as simple as just putting stuff into crazy bump.
As for strip modeling, as far as I know it's basically roto-modeling where you start with building the silhouette with strips of polygon. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Hahaha sorry, I just didn't think there was any more important things as far as normal mapping went. You're not mean at all, and I definitely agree about the watching tutorials thing. Frankly, I'm tired of watching hour long tutorials, and that's why I'm starting to actually model now. The only reason I sat through 9 hours of watching a tutorials was because I thought it would be enough to teach me how to correctly model a gun. I guess I simply got way over my head.
I just woke up and I was actually planning on making your chairs today. Also, for the above image I basically starting with a plane and started shift moving edges, then I applied a turbo smooth. Either way, thank you very much for your time. You guys are really awesome and I can already tell joining this forum was the best thing I ever did to progress my modelling. Hopefully when I'm more experienced I can give back to the community.