It's all well and good having ownership over every aspect of a level (modelling, texturing, shaders, lighting) but their comes a point in production, especially for next gen, when it's just not feasible to do all of these things. You will be literally spreading yourself too thinly. Anything that can save time and cut down on the tedious stuff like uv mapping and retopology is a win. Team sizes aren't going to expand that much for gen4 so specialization (and a shit ton of outsourcing) is the pretty much the only solution. That or spend 8 years on a game like ID.
Very interesting debate I've heard this debate echoed in a few conversations irl. As unlikely as some of the posters are making it sound, we are all smart enough here to know that we don't know what the future holds anything can happen and jobs have been made obsolete in other industries and it wouldn't surprise me if and when it happens in a fast moving business such as the game/3D industry.
Specialisation is cool... but a double edge sword...we all remember typographers some of you maybe old enough to remember that was a very specialist discipline now due to technology every man and his dog is doing it.
my advice from my own logic is become an artist that can do 3D if and when you please, not an artist who can only do 3D that way you can switch out from 3D and do something entirely different.
I don't know about y'all, but I got an incoming art test without a computer and I will be recieving it halfway to my deadline. Lord knows ill be making good use of zremesher and ddo to save time on retopo and textures
interesting and very common take on approach. I know how you feel and somewhat agree, but weather we want ownership or not won't matter. Pretty soon we are going to have to let go of that for the greater good of the project. Pretty soon it will just be Art Assemblers. Just about EVERYTHING will be outsourced. Otherwise, the only alternative is to keep current gen engines, same cost, everything looks like Titanfall. Well, on The Xbone that is.
I can agree to a degree, but it depends, many of us will need to transition from Employees to owners/developers, the indie market right now is exploding, the mobile market too.
Right now you find the right people looking in the right direction with the right ambition (or merely have it yourself like the minecraft dude) you can go onto produce something that may make you wealthy, but at least will most likely if its any good allow you to make a decent living off doing what you love.
Have faith and drive, and your potential is limitless.
There is merit to that point of view. To also better elaborate on my previous mentioned thoughts, i think the lack of mult discipline split is largely localized to "types" of stylized games. WOW, Titanfall, COD, Halo 4, etc, all are dependent on a certain work flow to deliver a type of visual Stylized standard.
The use or Crazybump or Ndo cuts down on time while delivering a somewhat acceptable quality. Qualities that largely are more than acceptable to the majority gaming public who wouldn't know the difference.
For games like "The Devision" or hell even "The Last of Us" and Uncharted, these games require a discipline split to reach those qualities. There's just no way around it. Those that try to reach that quality with a single artist will hit production problems.
If Companies don't change they are going to deliver late milestones, loose projects and/or go under, etc. Times are changing and the hardcore developers are either going to adapt or die. No way around it.
To quote the most bad ass show of all time,
"all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again"
we see this split already in film. just natural that it trickles down to games. "ownership" of an asset does indeed often add more quality to an asset because it is "yours" (at least for a time). But there are many industries without this sense of ownership where companies produce quality items. That's why we'll see more QA steps and tools integrated into the pipeline and at each hand-over to other artists than we do now.
For games like "The Devision" or hell even "The Last of Us" and Uncharted, these games require a discipline split to reach those qualities. There's just no way around it. Those that try to reach that quality with a single artist will hit production problems.
Crazyeyes, you said the same thing about other games on the other page, and you were wrong, so I think you can skip that theory, It's just another way of running things, both can work or fail.
Crazyeyes, you said the same thing about other games on the other page, and you were wrong, so I think you can skip that theory, It's just another way of running things, both can work or fail.
We both have our "opinions". I could be wrong. That would be a welcome change. Time will tell. I do speak from some experience. I've seen first hand how art pipelines have evolved with PC and 3 console generations. My opinion is only conjecture and what I foresee happening.
Thank you so much for your pointed honesty. A very interesting debate.
Completely agree with Crazyeyes here, for the experience I had, the companies that are not adapting (which I worked on) are not so well because of production and time, or they are lacking on quality.
I can kinda see where you are coming CrazyEyes from but there is some pride in the work you create as a whole team regardless of ownership. Well where I currently work sometimes we get to both model and texture an asset but aside from that there's not a lot of ownership of the assets really and a lot of the hero assets have been modelled and textured by 3 different people. We all do whatever we can to help the game get done and that means we cant be precious about our tasks or roles ...theres too few of us and just too much to do for that to even matter! ...and this is on a mobile game so I imagine console stuff is going to be the same only perhaps even more complicated assets.
for every thing we simplify and automate there's 10 new things we invent that has to be done.
Take programming for example: back in the days you had to delve in assembly and manually create sprite-sheets in code, now we have fantastic easy to use languages that does a shit ton of things for us, as well as visual scripting tools, yet now our games are so complex that people don't really think about that too much.
Same with art and its tools, we keep inventing tools that automate and make things easier, but we also keep inventing new ways to make art that puts even more demand on the art-department.
There is always going to be clean up issues for rigging and you will have to know the basics. I see it as you will now be able to build and retypo much quicker. Giving you more time for polish.
At the moment its like 80% create 20% polish unless there is a huge cash flow. So now artists will have some more tools to reach a goal they are happy with much faster.
Might want to look into one of these as well, Razer Nostromo I have seen some crazy artists make things in an hour that would normally be a days work.
Might want to look into one of these as well, I have seen some crazy artists make things in an hour that would normally be a days work.
In what way does that actually help versus a conventional keyboard.
In a nostromo vs someone who clicks every single tool I could see your point, but not really when compared to someone who uses keybindings on a normal keyboard.
(it's an actual question, I have never tried something like that, so I'm wondering in what way this would help speed up your work)
In what way does that actually help versus a conventional keyboard.
In a nostromo vs someone who clicks every single tool I could see your point, but not really when compared to someone who uses keybindings on a normal keyboard.
(it's an actual question, I have never tried something like that, so I'm wondering in what way this would help speed up your work)
You can write macros with it instead of just keybinding. I imagine a diligent person could write a lot of macros that do the same stuff maxscript does in 3ds max and dDo does in Photoshop, albeit sloppier and you must not press any keys while the macro is running. I own one but I've never considered a use for it in my work.
You know, you can get freeware programs to write as complex macros as you could possibly desire, no need to buy goofy MMO peripherals.
If 3d artists were going to go away, why does Fifa still need to get real people to individually model shoes and elbowpads that exist in the real world? Why don't they just scan them?! :poly142:
I really don't see how you can replace actually modelling scifi/fantasy modular sets. Even if you go and say that outsourcing will replace us, well, someone's still modelling them. Maybe a lot of it could become automated/procedural, but mo-cap still needs animators...
oh man, i see myself removing dog craps at the park...
Ask yourself one thing, How much did the AI improved in games?. A computer is a machine, and it w0n't never DO what a human does (if you don't get the indirect: to think, it's not intelligent). They can help us to make the job easier, but nothing more. At the end, and i hope so, what will make the difference will be our creativity and design abilities.
With all the boom of 3d animation, did the traditional animation disappeared? NO.
Imho, You should worry about being more competitive, being a better artist, because the level required to work in games is higher and if you don't offer what it takes, you WILL be without job yes or yes.
All the aspiring artist should learn A LOT (more than 6 years back), seriously.
I agree Blaizer, I have found myself falling behind over the last few years and its hard to get it back.
I am actually thinking of getting a part time job now, not game related.
You can write macros with it instead of just keybinding. I imagine a diligent person could write a lot of macros that do the same stuff maxscript does in 3ds max and dDo does in Photoshop, albeit sloppier and you must not press any keys while the macro is running. I own one but I've never considered a use for it in my work.
You'd be better off having those macros on your keyboard though, surely.
Don't be soo naive to think 3d hasn't had any sort of adverse impact on tradtional animation yes it hasn't disappeared but it has significantly suffered some at least on the movie screen when you think that Disney a company that made it's name from that style are turning their back on it speaks volumes...and take a look at the numbers on those relatively recent movie releases the numbers don't lie.
3d has come a tremendous way from where it was just 30 years ago...Think about that people just 30 years ago..Who knows what's round the corner.
It makes economic sense with games becoming ever more content heavy that at some point some boffin out there who wants be rich and famous won't find a way to drive costs down for companies to make their AAA games on a budget.
It wouldn't be click a button make an environment but it'd be for more simple props and assets which would save time...Potentially making a good proportion of people obsolete.
I hope this NEVER happens but..the notion of what the OP is mentioning isn't far fetched and quite possible in today's world.
I have seen some crazy artists make things in an hour that would normally be a days work.
I personally don't see the use in this besides the ability to set it next to a intuos I just feel your actually losing keybind potential. I'm not biased against that type of stuff either I love having razers 9 button mouse but this seems like it's just replacing buttons (even subtracting) rather than adding.
One thing I've been looking at is the "Stinkyboard" though while laughing I do imagine having 2 of them under each of my feet having 4 keybinds each 32 potentially. Cause I feel like we're wasting our legs potential!
since we're talking about game pads
i have a logitech g13, i rarely ever use it on my pc ( i like the feel of a keyboard in my hand) , but i do use it with my tablet and they make a decent combination.
Matoaf, but who cares about disney when they are more "Pixar" than the old disney we all knew. Disney for me is history.
do you know that almost all the traditional animation is made in japan? i turn on the tv and i put all the disney channels, and most of the cartoons are traditional... (BTW, very bad compared to japanese anime).
BTW, any creative/design procress can't be done pressing a click. As much (and it's not a creative process for me), we can scan people, objects, use mocaps, and optimize our workflow. You don't need to have such fear.
If any company wants to save money and time, they can use libraries of models such as in 3d architecture . We already don't need to pay a guy to model a car.
We both have our "opinions". I could be wrong. That would be a welcome change. Time will tell. I do speak from some experience. I've seen first hand how art pipelines have evolved with PC and 3 console generations. My opinion is only conjecture and what I foresee happening.
Thank you so much for your pointed honesty. A very interesting debate.
Sorry might have come of as a bit rude, but sounded like you ignored the wrong and brought up other titles names instead, there have been some really good looking games created with both ways
I don't think you can argue with that.
of course i respect your opinion and you might be right, I also come from experience with both ways, and for me both have their plusese and minuses, as for the very specialized way, you need a very tight level of quality artists, as in not too big differences in skill, I took part as a texture artist, and got shitty models with bad uv layouts which had a great concept to begin with but someone just made it crappy and all that motivation to work just went down the toilet.
of course its work and it shouldn't matter, I shouldn't get my shit done anyway, but we all know just working the clock in this industry doesn't work, you need to build your own motivation and find another way to motivate yourself other then money to keep you going.
since we're talking about game pads
i have a logitech g13, i rarely ever use it on my pc ( i like the feel of a keyboard in my hand) , but i do use it with my tablet and they make a decent combination.
@ - Blaizer I'm glad we're having this conversation..Yes it's mainly in the east where traditional animation still flourishes..But let's take Studio ghibli for example..Do you know who distributes their products internationally??
It's Disney....now I know they could easily find another distributor but it's the sign of the times. It's a bit harrowing when your major distributor who used to pioneer the craft itself want no part of it for the time being.
ghibli, Sylvain Chomet and other such entities are becoming the last bastions for this type of media on a somewhat big scale...
I remember when there used to be big films like that out every summer, now this summer can anyone even name me one that's coming out in the cinemas! It's dominated by 3D, Despicable me, Monsters University and Epic
The only ones I could name are my little pony and the last days of coney island?!?!
Traditional animation still lives and will always do so. But it has definitely been pushed off the silver screen by 3D these days, There's no escaping it.
I don't believe Disney are history but it's a sad indictment of our time.
Replies
It's all well and good having ownership over every aspect of a level (modelling, texturing, shaders, lighting) but their comes a point in production, especially for next gen, when it's just not feasible to do all of these things. You will be literally spreading yourself too thinly. Anything that can save time and cut down on the tedious stuff like uv mapping and retopology is a win. Team sizes aren't going to expand that much for gen4 so specialization (and a shit ton of outsourcing) is the pretty much the only solution. That or spend 8 years on a game like ID.
Specialisation is cool... but a double edge sword...we all remember typographers some of you maybe old enough to remember that was a very specialist discipline now due to technology every man and his dog is doing it.
my advice from my own logic is become an artist that can do 3D if and when you please, not an artist who can only do 3D that way you can switch out from 3D and do something entirely different.
That way you always stay relevant.
I can agree to a degree, but it depends, many of us will need to transition from Employees to owners/developers, the indie market right now is exploding, the mobile market too.
Right now you find the right people looking in the right direction with the right ambition (or merely have it yourself like the minecraft dude) you can go onto produce something that may make you wealthy, but at least will most likely if its any good allow you to make a decent living off doing what you love.
Have faith and drive, and your potential is limitless.
The use or Crazybump or Ndo cuts down on time while delivering a somewhat acceptable quality. Qualities that largely are more than acceptable to the majority gaming public who wouldn't know the difference.
For games like "The Devision" or hell even "The Last of Us" and Uncharted, these games require a discipline split to reach those qualities. There's just no way around it. Those that try to reach that quality with a single artist will hit production problems.
If Companies don't change they are going to deliver late milestones, loose projects and/or go under, etc. Times are changing and the hardcore developers are either going to adapt or die. No way around it.
To quote the most bad ass show of all time,
"all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again"
Crazyeyes, you said the same thing about other games on the other page, and you were wrong, so I think you can skip that theory, It's just another way of running things, both can work or fail.
We both have our "opinions". I could be wrong. That would be a welcome change. Time will tell. I do speak from some experience. I've seen first hand how art pipelines have evolved with PC and 3 console generations. My opinion is only conjecture and what I foresee happening.
Thank you so much for your pointed honesty. A very interesting debate.
Take programming for example: back in the days you had to delve in assembly and manually create sprite-sheets in code, now we have fantastic easy to use languages that does a shit ton of things for us, as well as visual scripting tools, yet now our games are so complex that people don't really think about that too much.
Same with art and its tools, we keep inventing tools that automate and make things easier, but we also keep inventing new ways to make art that puts even more demand on the art-department.
At the moment its like 80% create 20% polish unless there is a huge cash flow. So now artists will have some more tools to reach a goal they are happy with much faster.
Might want to look into one of these as well, Razer Nostromo I have seen some crazy artists make things in an hour that would normally be a days work.
In what way does that actually help versus a conventional keyboard.
In a nostromo vs someone who clicks every single tool I could see your point, but not really when compared to someone who uses keybindings on a normal keyboard.
(it's an actual question, I have never tried something like that, so I'm wondering in what way this would help speed up your work)
You can write macros with it instead of just keybinding. I imagine a diligent person could write a lot of macros that do the same stuff maxscript does in 3ds max and dDo does in Photoshop, albeit sloppier and you must not press any keys while the macro is running. I own one but I've never considered a use for it in my work.
If 3d artists were going to go away, why does Fifa still need to get real people to individually model shoes and elbowpads that exist in the real world? Why don't they just scan them?! :poly142:
I really don't see how you can replace actually modelling scifi/fantasy modular sets. Even if you go and say that outsourcing will replace us, well, someone's still modelling them. Maybe a lot of it could become automated/procedural, but mo-cap still needs animators...
Ask yourself one thing, How much did the AI improved in games?. A computer is a machine, and it w0n't never DO what a human does (if you don't get the indirect: to think, it's not intelligent). They can help us to make the job easier, but nothing more. At the end, and i hope so, what will make the difference will be our creativity and design abilities.
With all the boom of 3d animation, did the traditional animation disappeared? NO.
Imho, You should worry about being more competitive, being a better artist, because the level required to work in games is higher and if you don't offer what it takes, you WILL be without job yes or yes.
All the aspiring artist should learn A LOT (more than 6 years back), seriously.
I am actually thinking of getting a part time job now, not game related.
You'd be better off having those macros on your keyboard though, surely.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/mar/07/disney-hand-drawn-animation
Don't be soo naive to think 3d hasn't had any sort of adverse impact on tradtional animation yes it hasn't disappeared but it has significantly suffered some at least on the movie screen when you think that Disney a company that made it's name from that style are turning their back on it speaks volumes...and take a look at the numbers on those relatively recent movie releases the numbers don't lie.
3d has come a tremendous way from where it was just 30 years ago...Think about that people just 30 years ago..Who knows what's round the corner.
It makes economic sense with games becoming ever more content heavy that at some point some boffin out there who wants be rich and famous won't find a way to drive costs down for companies to make their AAA games on a budget.
It wouldn't be click a button make an environment but it'd be for more simple props and assets which would save time...Potentially making a good proportion of people obsolete.
I hope this NEVER happens but..the notion of what the OP is mentioning isn't far fetched and quite possible in today's world.
I personally don't see the use in this besides the ability to set it next to a intuos I just feel your actually losing keybind potential. I'm not biased against that type of stuff either I love having razers 9 button mouse but this seems like it's just replacing buttons (even subtracting) rather than adding.
One thing I've been looking at is the "Stinkyboard" though while laughing I do imagine having 2 of them under each of my feet having 4 keybinds each 32 potentially. Cause I feel like we're wasting our legs potential!
i have a logitech g13, i rarely ever use it on my pc ( i like the feel of a keyboard in my hand) , but i do use it with my tablet and they make a decent combination.
here is a more affordable option for foot pedals (just bought one)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-USB-Foot-Control-Keyboard-Action-Switch-Pedal-HID-/160861146339?pt=Mice&hash=item2574124ce3
do you know that almost all the traditional animation is made in japan? i turn on the tv and i put all the disney channels, and most of the cartoons are traditional... (BTW, very bad compared to japanese anime).
BTW, any creative/design procress can't be done pressing a click. As much (and it's not a creative process for me), we can scan people, objects, use mocaps, and optimize our workflow. You don't need to have such fear.
If any company wants to save money and time, they can use libraries of models such as in 3d architecture
Sorry might have come of as a bit rude, but sounded like you ignored the wrong and brought up other titles names instead, there have been some really good looking games created with both ways
I don't think you can argue with that.
of course i respect your opinion and you might be right, I also come from experience with both ways, and for me both have their plusese and minuses, as for the very specialized way, you need a very tight level of quality artists, as in not too big differences in skill, I took part as a texture artist, and got shitty models with bad uv layouts which had a great concept to begin with but someone just made it crappy and all that motivation to work just went down the toilet.
of course its work and it shouldn't matter, I shouldn't get my shit done anyway, but we all know just working the clock in this industry doesn't work, you need to build your own motivation and find another way to motivate yourself other then money to keep you going.
Oh wow that's $100 cheaper. So glad you brought that up. Hope you're liking yours.
It's Disney....now I know they could easily find another distributor but it's the sign of the times. It's a bit harrowing when your major distributor who used to pioneer the craft itself want no part of it for the time being.
ghibli, Sylvain Chomet and other such entities are becoming the last bastions for this type of media on a somewhat big scale...
I remember when there used to be big films like that out every summer, now this summer can anyone even name me one that's coming out in the cinemas! It's dominated by 3D, Despicable me, Monsters University and Epic
The only ones I could name are my little pony and the last days of coney island?!?!
Traditional animation still lives and will always do so. But it has definitely been pushed off the silver screen by 3D these days, There's no escaping it.
I don't believe Disney are history but it's a sad indictment of our time.