But streaming gaming is dependant of the cloud and of your internet connection.
First of all, With Nvidia shield we need a PC gaming rig (and it must be good). And if we buy a device for streaming gaming, we need to pay a expensive bill for the 100mb internet connection (In Spain, 80+ euros monthly!!). Otherwise, in my case, with 9 mb of connection, and 400kb of upload... i could not play at 2560x1440 or 1920x1080... that's for sure.
I'm customed to play with the max specs and with max AA, and now we need to custom ourselves to see the compression artifacts of the streaming video? and to play with a huge imput lag? no, thanks.
This is not aimed for true gamers really, and it will fail, like Gaikai.
With lower specs than the new consoles, games will drop in quality a lot (in fact, pc gaming is suffering due to actual consoles and they shitty ports), and they will go towards casual and small games with very low spec requirements. This is a huge step backwards.
Blaizer, I could be wrong but since the Piston initially holds 1tb of memory, it will serve the same function as a PC using steam. Meaning the games are downloaded and installed into the unit itself. This isnt actually the steam box but it does have the backing of Valve.
Its initial hardware specs I believe include amd cpu/gpu specifically geared towards gaming. From what I have heard so far it should be on par with the radeon 4250. The power cost is only 40w.
Now with what Valve has planned, is not only a full screen interface for steam similar to the UI of home consoles, but also the inclusion of augmented reality peripherals and VR head sets like the Occulus rift. Toss in Valve support and PC usage for Haptic controls such as the Novint Falcon (which I own and can vouch for), I think there is enough to pull the hard core gamer away from consoles as well while offering more than just a closed box and OS in which developers often fight with the first party publishers just to get the games out as they would like.
I think gaming is entering a different field in which gamers will eventually demand more and this is the start of it.
Razer is also pushing a PC gaming tablet PC with control functionality. Ouya, and android devices are offering an open gaming platform. Games should eventually be able to be used on multiple pieces of hardware, not limited to the one Sony or Microsoft produces.
I'm customed to play with the max specs and with max AA, and now we need to custom ourselves to see the compression artifacts of the streaming video? and to play with a huge imput lag? no, thanks.
This is not aimed for true gamers really
The PC master race really annoy me sometimes... :poly136:
I think you're missing the point Blaizer. It's streaming over LAN, not WAN. You don't stream games from their servers. You run the game on your PC at home, and your PC sends the video/audio over the network to your TV. A (relatively) cheap device then plays that on your TV, while at the same time sending your controller input to your PC over the network as well.
It's the same thing as you have it now with Steam, plus an option to stream it to your TV. And if you don't already have a computer capable of that, then they also sell a $500 console.
Looks good!, really liking some of the multi screen/room and big picture discussion im seeing around this too. Happy to see quality AAA gaming moving in new less static directions.
TLDR; Microsoft is trying to compete with steam and using the same BS dirty tricks that Microsoft tends to use. Steam needs an alternative to PC's on the ready before Microsoft blocks them from your computer for good.
I dont think Microsoft can completely ban one type of 3rd party software and not others. Meaning that they could get taken to court for selectively picking the type of software they "allow" to work with windows in order to make more money from it.
That said, Valve has been (at least according to the rumors) been working strongly with Linux and wants to help push it as a more widely used platform. If this is true, then these PC's can easily boot into or solely run on a linux version based around Steam use.
Then you need a pc gaming system like with nvidia shield?, i'm confused :S
No if you play games through steam already, then I don't think you need to worry about getting a secondary piece of hardware unless you want to have your computer in another room separate from your TV.
The piston mini-pc's are for people who don't already have a PC capable of playing games, ie the console only people. Technically their consoles do play all of the games that are on steam, in one form or another, but are locked down because of where they come from. That doesn't sit right with valve and they want to open that up.
This COULD be the end of multi-platform development which would be great for developers to shrug off. It would put the developers that much closer to the customers by minimizing the role of the hardware manufacture and the 1st party developer that they are currently forced to deal with (Sony and MS).
There are a few options available:
Continue to play on your PC where it sits, as it is configured right now.
PC next to TV.
Hook your PC into your TV like a lot of people already do.
Build another PC to sit next to your TV (remember "media PC's? It looks a lot like a 360).
Be lazy and buy some pre-approved hardware at a higher price (ie piston).
PC away from TV.
Direct cable from your PC to a unit next to your TV that reads in/output from your devices and translates signals. Cheap, fast, but you trip over cables.
Wireless connection that does the same thing but uses your home wireless network, you can have a home network that is faster than your internet, it will take years to download games and movies (from the outside world) but they will stream quickly across your LOCAL network.
Be a dumbass
Buy an expensive streaming over the INTERNET machine and ignore your LOCAL home network. Have gaming wherever you go.
I know when I go out with friends I drag my giant TV along and hope for a fast enough wireless signal so I can ignore my friends and pretend like I'm in my living room... not out with friends...
TLDR:
IF you already have some nice hardware, I'm pretty sure they'll let you use it.
The mini PC's are starter kits.
It's very interesting that Valve is giving support to other hardware developers. It makes sense to me that they want to open the market and give consumers a choice of what kind of degree of tech they want in their homes. For me... upgrading my computer comes every 6 or 7 years... that time is coming already, adn looking at all of these options i am thinking about waiting and see what will come out. This piston looks interesting, but i want something more like my PC... so the steam box might be interesting, and i'll just leave my PC as is.
Mark makes a good point on the options avaiable. I am just happy to see that Valve thinks more about options.. unlike Microsoft where they want to dictate and monopolize their hardware and software and the content of it. I guess that is why they are pushing linux.
Its exciting to see PC remain strong. I can see all of this making a huge change on how people perceive consoles and pc.
the part i would be interested to see is how it is sold, since currently one of these things would be like $1,000, much more expensive than any console out there, but if valve believes it could use this as a platform to make a lot of sales on steam, they might subsidize the price of it, sell it at a loss and try to make they money back in steam sales.
thinking of the costs of the hardware, and it haveing to be made for such a small form factor, if sold at a profit i would think it would be near the range of a gameing laptop
i'd have to agree on the pricepoint, just the SSD alone has gotta be over 5 bills, but then again microsoft was selling the 360 at a loss for years if i recall correctly
i'd have to agree on the pricepoint, just the SSD alone has gotta be over 5 bills, but then again microsoft was selling the 360 at a loss for years if i recall correctly
ps2 and 3 were sold at a loss too, but with them they get royalty money from all game sales on the consoles so can make that money back, valve could do the same but it would be a much bigger risk, since the platform is more open.
No one knows what the price will actually be, or if that will be the only hardware that works with steam or not. Since there are rumors that Valve is looking for other hardware manufactures to make similar hardware the price could go down or up... Or they could offer several varieties and offer some kind of recommended game list for the different hardware.
Something tells me it won't be much different than if you build your own steam box (like you can do right now) and plug it into your TV but for a "nominal" mark up they are willing to make the process easier for you...
Anyways, if the final price is around 500€ for the economic model, and 1000€ for the perfomance one, it would not be a good option for our wallet imo.
Users can build a HTPC with WIFI like the one i posted (that coolermaster 120 pro), blu-ray included, SSD, etc. for less than 700 euro, and with a GTX 670-660OC. And of course, you would not need to have turned on another PC for streaming via lan.
in 12~ minutes we can build a nicer Gamer HTPC system. It's like to play with Legos.
In amazon (.es for me) you can build an i5, 8gb ram, gtx660, 128gb ssd, coolermaster 120, and a cheap itx mobo, and a 700w power supply. Do the experiment, it's not as expensive as you may think. If you choose an older i5/i7 processor, all will be cheaper for sure, including the mobo.
And if you want to have 16gb of Ram, it's less than 70 euro for 2 modules of 8gb cl9 1600mhz. I buy all the components separately, some in one shop, some in other, and the great thing about amazon is their free shipping with premium account.
We could build cheaper systems some months back, but now all is more expensive due to our 21% of VAT (IVA for us). We had a 16%.
In fact, my huge tower PC, could be compressed into a small htpc nowadays, and be my workstation.
Edit: here's an example without caring a lot about prices. Some components are overpriced!.
Blaizer: You're missing the point here, its a pre-built computer. You're not the demographic. Pre-built dell computers will be overpriced to you, and any other experienced enthusiast PC builder.
Comparing pre-built systems meant for people who don't care to build their own systems to what you could build you own system for... Its a pointless exercise.
Oh I agree, you can build a powerful desktop pc for pretty cheap these days...but thats not the point. The desk top I build uses a ton of electricity, its powerful as hell and cost under $1000 to build...but the electric bill for us is high enough where the computer alone probably adds $50-150 extra per month (depending on use).
SO when I see a powerful mini pc like console, that is also modular and can be upgraded...that only uses 40 watts, I already know I am going to save money in the long run. Both my PS3 and Xbox 360 eat up at least twice as much as the Piston, nearly 3-4 times as much depending on model.
Furthermore, since not everyone is a power user and there is a general trend to make things smaller, more efficient and stylized, this kind of product fits perfectly with the needs of many. We are seeing tablets and ultrabooks pretty much take over, monitors that have pcs built into them, and laptops that are thinner than a magazine or two. I for one cant wait to retire the massive desktop I built...the only thing holding me back for example was that much of the tech out there isnt upgradable.
For a dedicated gaming system, something like the Piston is perfect and energy efficient.
SO i think the question you need to be asking, is why its good, not why its bad.
Add: also consider the future implications. Already people are able to live well off the grid, and its something I plan to do partially. Solar panels to power LED lights, charged battery systems to power low energy utilities. Sometimes where I am at (hollywood hills near the famous hollywood sign) the power goes out because of winds or idiot squirrels. Knowing one could power their computer or gaming device with some back up power and have it last longer is a nice option. Just saying its good to think about when considering the long term implications and direction.
If you save money in cheaper components, you can put a 660 ti OC or a 670, but it must have the cooling system of the pny i posted (due to the case). You can save a lot with the cpu, mobo and psu and ssd. I put the samsung ssd cuz is one of the best. Another thing is that i put the z77 platform for the latest i5/i7.
A pre-built system does not mean they must charge us a lot of more money. In Spain almost all the shops that sell components have their "build your own pc", you pay like 40 euros, and they build you your computer, they test all the components and they install you the OS.
But if a user does not know about it, it's a huge amount of money they don't save. This will be like laptops... you will pay the double for its small form factor and portability.
A Gamer HTPC is not so energy eater nowadays. The GTX 660 with OC or without OC has a good TDP for its great perfomance on gaming, and the i5 has a max 70W+ of TDP if i recall well.
You must have in mind that you will need a PC for the streaming... so it's more energy wasted. Why the heck do i need to have 2 devices turned on and wasting energy?, it's pointless.
As note: a gtx 680 needs almost the same energy power as a GTX 560ti, so you have the last word when buying. I won't be worried if my htpc system is consuming 250w+ in total.
I really would like to know the specs of these piston boxes... I'm totally sure they are as bad as a zotac mini pc, like the one i posted. With too many e-sata ports, it can't be any good.
yeah i know that about the z77, but bear in mind that what i indicated you was only to make yourself the idea of the price, i just picked expensive components to demonstrate you how cheap can be a gamer htpc, just that.
With the ram, is the same, i chose the modules without looking the compability... so you see
For that mobo, a k version and a proper cpu cooler should be a must for a OC. But you know... there aren't too many options for itx mobos with WIFI, and all what i saw was z77 :S.
And Yes, windows 8 is around 30 euro or 15 if you use a discount. If you previously had a win7 license, you don't need to pay anything.
I didn't look the graphic card charts since i bought my gtx 680 OC, but i think with a simple gtx 660 oc we should have enough. There's like 100 euro of difference between 600 oc and 660ti oc ( 180 euro - 280 euro respectively).
Edit: The rig could be easily under 680, because some component prices in amazon are quite expensive compared to another online shops with free shipping.
your still talking about $888 US dollars, which is more than the average consumer would like to pay for something like this when consoles, both the current ones and the new gen will still be cheaper.
And the beauty of the system is that no one is stopping you from building your own and using it with steam. Try building a better xbox or ps3 for cheaper and expect it to work on their networks and play their games. You might be able to hack some kind of Franken-box using pieces from an old broken system but then the game will still only be optimized for shit hardware.
Valve is looking to get around that.
You can do prebuilt, you can DIY, you can use two rocks and a paperclip that you got from your 3rd uncle and it would still connect to your friends list and let you browse the store, you couldn't play anything but it would get you connected, which funny enough is what I mostly use steam for these days, ha.
your still talking about $888 US dollars, which is more than the average consumer would like to pay for something like this when consoles, both the current ones and the new gen will still be cheaper.
That PC is cheaper than the Ps3 was when it launched here.
All this quibbling over PC assembly prices is missing the point. Valve's attempt at pre-built Steam-focused boxes is more of a publicity and marketing stunt than anything else. They aren't closing off a specific hardware spec, and their Steam service will still be available to any and all regular PC users. It won't ultimately matter if any of their Steam-boxes sell. They aren't trying to supplant consoles so much as popularize TV-tethered PC gaming.
Valve has been trying for years to make PC gaming easier and smoother for both developers and consumers. To a certain degree they've succeeded. A Steam-box initiative is just a means for them to show consumers how feasible TV-tethered PC gaming can be. The price of this or that box over another doesn't really matter.
What's really going to be important for Valve is proper peripherals. A Steam-standard controller spec is far more important than any Steam-box. Most PC games use the 360 controller as a standard. Valve needs to usurp that with their own wireless standard controller. A standard configuration would give developers a base to work from, and making the standard open would allow competition from other hardware manufacturers.
Also, as much of a mistake as the Phantom was, there was one good idea that came out of that project. We desperately need some manner of lap-board. I need a keyboard/mouse combo to partake of proper computing. Browsing the internet or managing desktop applications with a controller just doesn't cut it. Having a lap-friendly keyboard-mouse setup would be really useful.
Additionally - and all price points aside:
if this takes off as i'm sure Valve hopes it will, it means that the PC people and the console people will both be able to play the same games together (something that Valve clearly has an interest in), and it also means that devel0pers will (hopefully, eventually) not have to spend the precious resources to port a game to 3 or 4 completely different platforms to reach as wide a market as possible.
port a game to steam - just about everybody who will play it can now play it - and all with eachother. those who use their PC, those who bought a pre-assembled "console" box, and those who built their own "console" box. potentially makes reaching a wide market infinitely easier and cheaper.
all of this requires a wide-enough adoption of the tech to make the next gen XBOX/PS play along - something that Sony has already started to do.
your still talking about $888 US dollars, which is more than the average consumer would like to pay for something like this when consoles, both the current ones and the new gen will still be cheaper.
in europe 1 dollar = 1 euro or more, we always lose. In US dollars the whole rig SHOULD be cheaper for sure.
Mark, i also use origin and uplay. Steam is just another platform and it seems they want to monopolize the market at all costs. Steam can be also considered a draconian DRM, and i only use it to play what i buy. Too many games requires a steam account.
BTW, i have steam on my android smart phone.
Durango, Orbis, Ouya, project shield, and now steam box... too many useless gadgets.
..actually, atm 1 euro - 1.32 USD (according to google). So an $800 rig SHOULD cost roughly 600 euoro.
Being in the US i have no idea how closely that matches reality depending on the economy of any given part of the world...but there it is.
I'm also fairly certain that if you would prefer to buy a game with Origin or anything else you'll be able to put it on the steambox you might own.
Valve has already stated that you'll be free to install windows on the thing if you'd like to - so nobody's stopping you from putting any other program on it and buy from the store of your choosing.
It's about as much a monopolization as Blu-ray - which became the standard instead of HDDVD because it was BETTER, not because they pulled some sort of shady nonsense.
The idea is that if you like Steam the most, you'll use steam. If you don't, you won't. They in no way intend to stop you from having a choice in either hardware OR software - that's something i feel they've made abundantly clear. and if you don't want to buy their rig to do your thing, then don't. you can still run steam and play all the same games in the same community as those who have. easy-peasy.
It's about as much a monopolization as Blu-ray - which became the standard instead of HDDVD because it was BETTER, not because they pulled some sort of shady nonsense.
I agree with everything you said up-until this... Sony locked up the rights to some very big studios and distribution networks, to keep movies off of HDDVD which effectively killed the format. They where mostly equal and Sony spent a lot of money making sure they outmaneuvered MS, which helped drive up the cost of the PS3...
..actually, atm 1 euro - 1.32 USD (according to google). So an $800 rig SHOULD cost roughly 600 euoro.
Being in the US i have no idea how closely that matches reality depending on the economy of any given part of the world...but there it is.
Being from Europe I can attest to what Blaizer is saying. We are fucked in pretty much every pricing scheme.
Apple sells iPads at $499, and at 499 ($658)
Photoshop costs $699 or 799.00 ($1053)
A Volvo C30 (base model) is $25,500 or 25.665 ($33,821) Steam prices tend to be rather anti-EU, too.
One can argue about shipping prices, but I doubt they are THAT high. Especially since iPads get made in China, Photoshop and Steam are downloads, and Volvo has 3 EU plants but none in the U.S..
Euros are pretty much screw universally when it comes to electronics. Consoles, computers, cameras, you name it. It usually close to a 1:1 ratio even though the dollar is weaker.
HOWEVER, prices in Europe generally include sales tax(VAT), and sales tax is MUCH higher in some European countries(up to 20%!) which has a lot to do with the seemingly lopsided prices. Wages are generally higher(or atleast some countries) in Europe as well, not to mention health insurance etc etc. When you add it all up it isn't that bad.
We pay 5-10% sales tax on purchased made in state, and 0% tax on items purchased on the internet.
I agree with everything you said up-until this... Sony locked up the rights to some very big studios and distribution networks, to keep movies off of HDDVD which effectively killed the format. They where mostly equal and Sony spent a lot of money making sure they outmaneuvered MS, which helped drive up the cost of the PS3...
No offense but you are wrong on that.
HDdvd was backed by Paramount Pictures, Universal Pictures, Warner Bros. Pictures, HBO and New Line Cinema, including Microsoft and Intel. Even Pixar eventually sided with HD Dvd.
Disney and Sony pictures were the only two major studios still backing Bluray.
Panasonic and microsoft obtained many of those studios using the same method you accuse Sony of using. For Microsoft, the hd-dvd represented their xbox 360 and they didnt want to lose to Sony and the Ps3.
The biggest mistake was that Microsoft didnt include the hd-dvd player as part of the 360. It was a separate add on which i believe initially cost $200 and then went down to $150.
Bluray won because, not only was bluray superior and older in its development, but due the fact they included it in the PS3. Ultimately, more bluray players ended up in the household as opposed to a hd-dvd player. After that WB decided to release on bluray and the rest is history. The HD-dvd people took that as a sign of game over and threw in the towel.
Microsoft rushed to have the 360 before the ps3, which helped them win the console war, but lost the format war due to Sony waiting with the bluray as part of the console hardware.
Being from Europe I can attest to what Blaizer is saying. We are fucked in pretty much every pricing scheme.
Apple sells iPads at $499, and at 499 ($658)
Photoshop costs $699 or 799.00 ($1053)
A Volvo C30 (base model) is $25,500 or 25.665 ($33,821) Steam prices tend to be rather anti-EU, too.
One can argue about shipping prices, but I doubt they are THAT high. Especially since iPads get made in China, Photoshop and Steam are downloads, and Volvo has 3 EU plants but none in the U.S..
For sure, but a lot of that comes down to the type of government and policies put in place. EU is just expensive all around. With all the debt troubles facing EU as well as internationally, it looks like its going to get a lot more expensive as more taxation is imposed on people.
The biggest mistake was that Microsoft didnt include the hd-dvd player as part of the 360. It was a separate add on which i believe initially cost $200 and then went down to $150.
Bluray won because, not only was bluray superior and older in its development, but due the fact they included it in the PS3. Ultimately, more bluray players ended up in the household as opposed to a hd-dvd player. After that WB decided to release on bluray and the rest is history. The HD-dvd people took that as a sign of game over and threw in the towel.
Microsoft rushed to have the 360 before the ps3, which helped them win the console war, but lost the format war due to Sony waiting with the bluray as part of the console hardware.
Pretty much, Sony was selling PS3s at $300 when blueray players were still in the $200 price range.
For sure, but a lot of that comes down to the type of government and policies put in place. EU is just expensive all around. With all the debt troubles facing EU as well as internationally, it looks like its going to get a lot more expensive as more taxation is imposed on people.
lol, it has fuck all to do with the governments. these are digitally distributed products, with no form of international shipping or import tax costs to be incurred. the only taxes involved are per-country VAT taxes.
when photoshop costs $700, and also costs £700 for anyone in england, for a digital product. you can literally go fuck yourself if you think we're paying that much. ESPECIALLY since they say "not including VAT". i'd rather work with gimp, or use an american IP address to pay for it in $'s... thereby getting it for almost half the price.
lol, it has fuck all to do with the governments. these are digitally distributed products, with no form of international shipping or import tax costs to be incurred. the only taxes involved are per-country VAT taxes.
when photoshop costs $700, and also costs £700 for anyone in england, for a digital product. you can literally go fuck yourself if you think we're paying that much. ESPECIALLY since they say "not including VAT". i'd rather work with gimp, or use an american IP address to pay for it in $'s... thereby getting it for almost half the price.
lol, it has fuck all to do with the governments. these are digitally distributed products, with no form of international shipping or import tax costs to be incurred. the only taxes involved are per-country VAT taxes.
when photoshop costs $700, and also costs £700 for anyone in england, for a digital product. you can literally go fuck yourself if you think we're paying that much. ESPECIALLY since they say "not including VAT". i'd rather work with gimp, or use an american IP address to pay for it in $'s... thereby getting it for almost half the price.
I wasnt simply talking about software. On the software front however, Adobe explained it was merely a matter of dealing with a volatile market, currency and other such factors which lead to price disparities between continents.
Governments, their policies and their types of taxation have a lot to do with how all that plays out in the long run.
Admittedly I did NO research regarding my HdDVD/BluRay comment. The point i was trying to make is simply that this doesn't seem in ANY WAY to be a move to monopolize the digital distribution space by Valve. Steam is already the most widely used and it's not because of any dirty tricks or back-door deal making. I'd venture to say it's because steam is just better...
EA even pulled all of their games (i think post ME2) from steam to try to get more people to use origin...which is one of the previously mentioned crummy practices that to my knowledge Valve has never been guilty of.
As far as the EU/Dollar thing...no idea why things are 1:1 over there if the Euro is stronger. the "taxes are included" thing makes some sense, though.
it seems like something that goes beyond the reach of Valve, though...so it's kind of a moot point. Good to know, and something to talk about, but yeah...complaining that the system is going to cost too much in the EU lacks much purpose IMO.
Monopoly? There's been many competitors to Steam before Origin and uPlay, and Valve doesn't have silly clauses like "you must release exclusively here first, or you won't release here at all for a long period of time" as seen in ... some other big service.
Monopoly? There's been many competitors to Steam before Origin and uPlay, and Valve doesn't have silly clauses like "you must release exclusively here first, or you won't release here at all for a long period of time" as seen in ... some other big service.
In a manner of speaking, Valve does have a majority monopoly on the modern distribution of PC gaming software. But you are correct, they didn't get this monopoly through questionable or immoral practices. They obtained it by providing the best product.
There are any number of digital distribution competitors, and more competitors are sure to crop up in the future. But Valve maintains a dominant position by simply having beaten most of those competitors to the punch, and continuously refining their product. It's the same reason why no one has manage to topple Blizzard in the MMORPG space. They got a head start, and never assumed they would still be the best tomorrow.
With all the debt troubles facing EU as well as internationally, it looks like its going to get a lot more expensive as more taxation is imposed on people.
It's not a new thing. Back in 2004 I was looking at Adobe CS3 and she same shit was happening. Adobe is making excuses, for example they say it costs money to localize/translate software yet i still have to pay the premium price if I buy an US-english version. (I prefer using English software because it helps understanding tutorials, bugs, , tutoring others etc. easier.)
Wages are generally higher(or atleast some countries) in Europe as well, not to mention health insurance etc etc. When you add it all up it isn't that bad.
I think that's incorrect as well. At least for gamedev wages you seem to make boatloads more in the US.
But sure, less holidays, worse healthcare.
Yeah, wages are definitely not higher out here in Euroland, and not even in the UK where they tend to be higher than the continent.
Not only that, we also tend to get taxed a lot more. Some Euro countries have as much as 40% on income tax for people on moderate salaries (and even higher for the wealthy).
I think on paper wages might appear higher, but the higher cost of living mixed with taxes leaves people in Euro countries with less money to work with. In America they just plow into wilderness and more houses spring up. Less availability in the EU, less land to develop, higher prices?
Eh. Even disregarding living costs and construction prices (land is more expensive, and AFAIK most/all European countries tend to use brick instead of wood) the E.U. has lower wages:
All in all though, I'm quite happy living here because social security is pretty good. Or was, at least. The past few years have done a lot of damage and even if things get good again, not all new laws will be reversed.
But we really could do without the 25-50% US-EU-tax. (which you may pronounce as us-you-tax)
Replies
First of all, With Nvidia shield we need a PC gaming rig (and it must be good). And if we buy a device for streaming gaming, we need to pay a expensive bill for the 100mb internet connection (In Spain, 80+ euros monthly!!). Otherwise, in my case, with 9 mb of connection, and 400kb of upload... i could not play at 2560x1440 or 1920x1080... that's for sure.
I'm customed to play with the max specs and with max AA, and now we need to custom ourselves to see the compression artifacts of the streaming video? and to play with a huge imput lag? no, thanks.
This is not aimed for true gamers really, and it will fail, like Gaikai.
With lower specs than the new consoles, games will drop in quality a lot (in fact, pc gaming is suffering due to actual consoles and they shitty ports), and they will go towards casual and small games with very low spec requirements. This is a huge step backwards.
Its initial hardware specs I believe include amd cpu/gpu specifically geared towards gaming. From what I have heard so far it should be on par with the radeon 4250. The power cost is only 40w.
Now with what Valve has planned, is not only a full screen interface for steam similar to the UI of home consoles, but also the inclusion of augmented reality peripherals and VR head sets like the Occulus rift. Toss in Valve support and PC usage for Haptic controls such as the Novint Falcon (which I own and can vouch for), I think there is enough to pull the hard core gamer away from consoles as well while offering more than just a closed box and OS in which developers often fight with the first party publishers just to get the games out as they would like.
I think gaming is entering a different field in which gamers will eventually demand more and this is the start of it.
Razer is also pushing a PC gaming tablet PC with control functionality. Ouya, and android devices are offering an open gaming platform. Games should eventually be able to be used on multiple pieces of hardware, not limited to the one Sony or Microsoft produces.
The PC master race really annoy me sometimes... :poly136:
It's the same thing as you have it now with Steam, plus an option to stream it to your TV. And if you don't already have a computer capable of that, then they also sell a $500 console.
I dont think Microsoft can completely ban one type of 3rd party software and not others. Meaning that they could get taken to court for selectively picking the type of software they "allow" to work with windows in order to make more money from it.
That said, Valve has been (at least according to the rumors) been working strongly with Linux and wants to help push it as a more widely used platform. If this is true, then these PC's can easily boot into or solely run on a linux version based around Steam use.
The piston mini-pc's are for people who don't already have a PC capable of playing games, ie the console only people. Technically their consoles do play all of the games that are on steam, in one form or another, but are locked down because of where they come from. That doesn't sit right with valve and they want to open that up.
This COULD be the end of multi-platform development which would be great for developers to shrug off. It would put the developers that much closer to the customers by minimizing the role of the hardware manufacture and the 1st party developer that they are currently forced to deal with (Sony and MS).
There are a few options available:
- Continue to play on your PC where it sits, as it is configured right now.
- PC next to TV.
- Hook your PC into your TV like a lot of people already do.
- Build another PC to sit next to your TV (remember "media PC's? It looks a lot like a 360).
- Be lazy and buy some pre-approved hardware at a higher price (ie piston).
- PC away from TV.
- Direct cable from your PC to a unit next to your TV that reads in/output from your devices and translates signals. Cheap, fast, but you trip over cables.
- Wireless connection that does the same thing but uses your home wireless network, you can have a home network that is faster than your internet, it will take years to download games and movies (from the outside world) but they will stream quickly across your LOCAL network.
- Be a dumbass
- Buy an expensive streaming over the INTERNET machine and ignore your LOCAL home network. Have gaming wherever you go.
- I know when I go out with friends I drag my giant TV along and hope for a fast enough wireless signal so I can ignore my friends and pretend like I'm in my living room... not out with friends...
TLDR:IF you already have some nice hardware, I'm pretty sure they'll let you use it.
The mini PC's are starter kits.
Mark makes a good point on the options avaiable. I am just happy to see that Valve thinks more about options.. unlike Microsoft where they want to dictate and monopolize their hardware and software and the content of it. I guess that is why they are pushing linux.
Its exciting to see PC remain strong. I can see all of this making a huge change on how people perceive consoles and pc.
does anyone thing this is a viable path.
thinking of the costs of the hardware, and it haveing to be made for such a small form factor, if sold at a profit i would think it would be near the range of a gameing laptop
ps2 and 3 were sold at a loss too, but with them they get royalty money from all game sales on the consoles so can make that money back, valve could do the same but it would be a much bigger risk, since the platform is more open.
http://www.polygon.com/2013/1/7/3849284/piston-valve-steam-box-xi3
No one knows what the price will actually be, or if that will be the only hardware that works with steam or not. Since there are rumors that Valve is looking for other hardware manufactures to make similar hardware the price could go down or up... Or they could offer several varieties and offer some kind of recommended game list for the different hardware.
Something tells me it won't be much different than if you build your own steam box (like you can do right now) and plug it into your TV but for a "nominal" mark up they are willing to make the process easier for you...
Anyways, if the final price is around 500€ for the economic model, and 1000€ for the perfomance one, it would not be a good option for our wallet imo.
Users can build a HTPC with WIFI like the one i posted (that coolermaster 120 pro), blu-ray included, SSD, etc. for less than 700 euro, and with a GTX 670-660OC. And of course, you would not need to have turned on another PC for streaming via lan.
in 12~ minutes we can build a nicer Gamer HTPC system. It's like to play with Legos.
This steam box is a no buy for me.
And why on earth would you but cards like that in a HTPC.
And if you want to have 16gb of Ram, it's less than 70 euro for 2 modules of 8gb cl9 1600mhz. I buy all the components separately, some in one shop, some in other, and the great thing about amazon is their free shipping with premium account.
We could build cheaper systems some months back, but now all is more expensive due to our 21% of VAT (IVA for us). We had a 16%.
In fact, my huge tower PC, could be compressed into a small htpc nowadays, and be my workstation.
Edit: here's an example without caring a lot about prices. Some components are overpriced!.
Comparing pre-built systems meant for people who don't care to build their own systems to what you could build you own system for... Its a pointless exercise.
SO when I see a powerful mini pc like console, that is also modular and can be upgraded...that only uses 40 watts, I already know I am going to save money in the long run. Both my PS3 and Xbox 360 eat up at least twice as much as the Piston, nearly 3-4 times as much depending on model.
Furthermore, since not everyone is a power user and there is a general trend to make things smaller, more efficient and stylized, this kind of product fits perfectly with the needs of many. We are seeing tablets and ultrabooks pretty much take over, monitors that have pcs built into them, and laptops that are thinner than a magazine or two. I for one cant wait to retire the massive desktop I built...the only thing holding me back for example was that much of the tech out there isnt upgradable.
For a dedicated gaming system, something like the Piston is perfect and energy efficient.
SO i think the question you need to be asking, is why its good, not why its bad.
Add: also consider the future implications. Already people are able to live well off the grid, and its something I plan to do partially. Solar panels to power LED lights, charged battery systems to power low energy utilities. Sometimes where I am at (hollywood hills near the famous hollywood sign) the power goes out because of winds or idiot squirrels. Knowing one could power their computer or gaming device with some back up power and have it last longer is a nice option. Just saying its good to think about when considering the long term implications and direction.
A pre-built system does not mean they must charge us a lot of more money. In Spain almost all the shops that sell components have their "build your own pc", you pay like 40 euros, and they build you your computer, they test all the components and they install you the OS.
But if a user does not know about it, it's a huge amount of money they don't save. This will be like laptops... you will pay the double for its small form factor and portability.
A Gamer HTPC is not so energy eater nowadays. The GTX 660 with OC or without OC has a good TDP for its great perfomance on gaming, and the i5 has a max 70W+ of TDP if i recall well.
You must have in mind that you will need a PC for the streaming... so it's more energy wasted. Why the heck do i need to have 2 devices turned on and wasting energy?, it's pointless.
As note: a gtx 680 needs almost the same energy power as a GTX 560ti, so you have the last word when buying. I won't be worried if my htpc system is consuming 250w+ in total.
I really would like to know the specs of these piston boxes... I'm totally sure they are as bad as a zotac mini pc, like the one i posted. With too many e-sata ports, it can't be any good.
You put in a z77 without a K processor though; pointless. :P
(Not that I can talk, I have an i7 3770 in a z77e-ITX, cause I was on a budget.)
Also, did you factor a windows licence into that?
Aaaaaaaaanyways... waiting to see what Gaben shows us soon.
With the ram, is the same, i chose the modules without looking the compability... so you see
For that mobo, a k version and a proper cpu cooler should be a must for a OC. But you know... there aren't too many options for itx mobos with WIFI, and all what i saw was z77 :S.
And Yes, windows 8 is around 30 euro or 15 if you use a discount. If you previously had a win7 license, you don't need to pay anything.
I didn't look the graphic card charts since i bought my gtx 680 OC, but i think with a simple gtx 660 oc we should have enough. There's like 100 euro of difference between 600 oc and 660ti oc ( 180 euro - 280 euro respectively).
Edit: The rig could be easily under 680, because some component prices in amazon are quite expensive compared to another online shops with free shipping.
And some charts about the gtx 660: http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/inno3d_geforce_gtx_660_herculez_ichill_review,19.html
Valve is looking to get around that.
You can do prebuilt, you can DIY, you can use two rocks and a paperclip that you got from your 3rd uncle and it would still connect to your friends list and let you browse the store, you couldn't play anything but it would get you connected, which funny enough is what I mostly use steam for these days, ha.
That PC is cheaper than the Ps3 was when it launched here.
Valve has been trying for years to make PC gaming easier and smoother for both developers and consumers. To a certain degree they've succeeded. A Steam-box initiative is just a means for them to show consumers how feasible TV-tethered PC gaming can be. The price of this or that box over another doesn't really matter.
What's really going to be important for Valve is proper peripherals. A Steam-standard controller spec is far more important than any Steam-box. Most PC games use the 360 controller as a standard. Valve needs to usurp that with their own wireless standard controller. A standard configuration would give developers a base to work from, and making the standard open would allow competition from other hardware manufacturers.
Also, as much of a mistake as the Phantom was, there was one good idea that came out of that project. We desperately need some manner of lap-board. I need a keyboard/mouse combo to partake of proper computing. Browsing the internet or managing desktop applications with a controller just doesn't cut it. Having a lap-friendly keyboard-mouse setup would be really useful.
if this takes off as i'm sure Valve hopes it will, it means that the PC people and the console people will both be able to play the same games together (something that Valve clearly has an interest in), and it also means that devel0pers will (hopefully, eventually) not have to spend the precious resources to port a game to 3 or 4 completely different platforms to reach as wide a market as possible.
port a game to steam - just about everybody who will play it can now play it - and all with eachother. those who use their PC, those who bought a pre-assembled "console" box, and those who built their own "console" box. potentially makes reaching a wide market infinitely easier and cheaper.
all of this requires a wide-enough adoption of the tech to make the next gen XBOX/PS play along - something that Sony has already started to do.
in europe 1 dollar = 1 euro or more, we always lose. In US dollars the whole rig SHOULD be cheaper for sure.
Mark, i also use origin and uplay. Steam is just another platform and it seems they want to monopolize the market at all costs. Steam can be also considered a draconian DRM, and i only use it to play what i buy. Too many games requires a steam account.
BTW, i have steam on my android smart phone.
Durango, Orbis, Ouya, project shield, and now steam box... too many useless gadgets.
Being in the US i have no idea how closely that matches reality depending on the economy of any given part of the world...but there it is.
I'm also fairly certain that if you would prefer to buy a game with Origin or anything else you'll be able to put it on the steambox you might own.
Valve has already stated that you'll be free to install windows on the thing if you'd like to - so nobody's stopping you from putting any other program on it and buy from the store of your choosing.
It's about as much a monopolization as Blu-ray - which became the standard instead of HDDVD because it was BETTER, not because they pulled some sort of shady nonsense.
The idea is that if you like Steam the most, you'll use steam. If you don't, you won't. They in no way intend to stop you from having a choice in either hardware OR software - that's something i feel they've made abundantly clear. and if you don't want to buy their rig to do your thing, then don't. you can still run steam and play all the same games in the same community as those who have. easy-peasy.
Being from Europe I can attest to what Blaizer is saying. We are fucked in pretty much every pricing scheme.
Apple sells iPads at $499, and at 499 ($658)
Photoshop costs $699 or 799.00 ($1053)
A Volvo C30 (base model) is $25,500 or 25.665 ($33,821)
Steam prices tend to be rather anti-EU, too.
One can argue about shipping prices, but I doubt they are THAT high. Especially since iPads get made in China, Photoshop and Steam are downloads, and Volvo has 3 EU plants but none in the U.S..
HOWEVER, prices in Europe generally include sales tax(VAT), and sales tax is MUCH higher in some European countries(up to 20%!) which has a lot to do with the seemingly lopsided prices. Wages are generally higher(or atleast some countries) in Europe as well, not to mention health insurance etc etc. When you add it all up it isn't that bad.
We pay 5-10% sales tax on purchased made in state, and 0% tax on items purchased on the internet.
No offense but you are wrong on that.
HDdvd was backed by Paramount Pictures, Universal Pictures, Warner Bros. Pictures, HBO and New Line Cinema, including Microsoft and Intel. Even Pixar eventually sided with HD Dvd.
Disney and Sony pictures were the only two major studios still backing Bluray.
Panasonic and microsoft obtained many of those studios using the same method you accuse Sony of using. For Microsoft, the hd-dvd represented their xbox 360 and they didnt want to lose to Sony and the Ps3.
The biggest mistake was that Microsoft didnt include the hd-dvd player as part of the 360. It was a separate add on which i believe initially cost $200 and then went down to $150.
Bluray won because, not only was bluray superior and older in its development, but due the fact they included it in the PS3. Ultimately, more bluray players ended up in the household as opposed to a hd-dvd player. After that WB decided to release on bluray and the rest is history. The HD-dvd people took that as a sign of game over and threw in the towel.
Microsoft rushed to have the 360 before the ps3, which helped them win the console war, but lost the format war due to Sony waiting with the bluray as part of the console hardware.
For sure, but a lot of that comes down to the type of government and policies put in place. EU is just expensive all around. With all the debt troubles facing EU as well as internationally, it looks like its going to get a lot more expensive as more taxation is imposed on people.
Pretty much, Sony was selling PS3s at $300 when blueray players were still in the $200 price range.
lol, it has fuck all to do with the governments. these are digitally distributed products, with no form of international shipping or import tax costs to be incurred. the only taxes involved are per-country VAT taxes.
when photoshop costs $700, and also costs £700 for anyone in england, for a digital product. you can literally go fuck yourself if you think we're paying that much. ESPECIALLY since they say "not including VAT". i'd rather work with gimp, or use an american IP address to pay for it in $'s... thereby getting it for almost half the price.
Seriously? Oh man, that is bad.
I wasnt simply talking about software. On the software front however, Adobe explained it was merely a matter of dealing with a volatile market, currency and other such factors which lead to price disparities between continents.
Governments, their policies and their types of taxation have a lot to do with how all that plays out in the long run.
Admittedly I did NO research regarding my HdDVD/BluRay comment. The point i was trying to make is simply that this doesn't seem in ANY WAY to be a move to monopolize the digital distribution space by Valve. Steam is already the most widely used and it's not because of any dirty tricks or back-door deal making. I'd venture to say it's because steam is just better...
EA even pulled all of their games (i think post ME2) from steam to try to get more people to use origin...which is one of the previously mentioned crummy practices that to my knowledge Valve has never been guilty of.
As far as the EU/Dollar thing...no idea why things are 1:1 over there if the Euro is stronger. the "taxes are included" thing makes some sense, though.
it seems like something that goes beyond the reach of Valve, though...so it's kind of a moot point. Good to know, and something to talk about, but yeah...complaining that the system is going to cost too much in the EU lacks much purpose IMO.
In a manner of speaking, Valve does have a majority monopoly on the modern distribution of PC gaming software. But you are correct, they didn't get this monopoly through questionable or immoral practices. They obtained it by providing the best product.
There are any number of digital distribution competitors, and more competitors are sure to crop up in the future. But Valve maintains a dominant position by simply having beaten most of those competitors to the punch, and continuously refining their product. It's the same reason why no one has manage to topple Blizzard in the MMORPG space. They got a head start, and never assumed they would still be the best tomorrow.
It's not a new thing. Back in 2004 I was looking at Adobe CS3 and she same shit was happening. Adobe is making excuses, for example they say it costs money to localize/translate software yet i still have to pay the premium price if I buy an US-english version. (I prefer using English software because it helps understanding tutorials, bugs, , tutoring others etc. easier.)
edit: dropbox is offline, image doesn't work right now.
so now i have to pay £660.51 for the full purchase, which is still $1064.54. whereas, if i use a US IP address to purchase it, i'm only paying £433.
pretty huge difference in price.
I think that's incorrect as well. At least for gamedev wages you seem to make boatloads more in the US.
But sure, less holidays, worse healthcare.
Not only that, we also tend to get taxed a lot more. Some Euro countries have as much as 40% on income tax for people on moderate salaries (and even higher for the wealthy).
All in all though, I'm quite happy living here because social security is pretty good. Or was, at least. The past few years have done a lot of damage and even if things get good again, not all new laws will be reversed.
But we really could do without the 25-50% US-EU-tax. (which you may pronounce as us-you-tax)