We get what you mean, but you standing out from the crowd is REALLY important. Yes the general state of the industry isn't great, but that's because it's being supported by an economy that's on it's knees. This is why we're talking about how important it is to hone the skills, competition gets steep with less jobs to go around.
Of course I realize the point of honing skills and building new ones, I'm not just sitting on my hands here waiting. I mentioned it somewhere else, one of the best pieces of advice I was recently given was to give each piece of content I create its own "character". That way, it doesn't become "generic piece of tech 1" "derivative mesh 2" etc and lost among the inundation of everyone else's work.
With that attitude Soul, I don't think you will end up being a great person to 'work' with. There is a difference between analyzing and criticizing the industry vs. being an outright cynic.
I sincerely hope you would not judge my capability as a potential co-worker based on merely asking questions. That seems awfully short-sighted to me.
Well, I think this response to your thread should make you reconsider your stance. No one has agreed with you, man... and these opinions are coming from a wide range of people, professional and amateur alike.
I was trying to discuss the current situation in the industry as it relates to hiring and jobs on a general basis
And it has indeed been discussed at length. Look at all of the insight which has been given on the hiring process alone - what studios are looking for, skill requirements, actual listing, etc. You don't respond to those posts however, but key in on the one or two liners directed specifically at you.
You had to have anticipated that responses would naturally progress into a question of, "well, why does this guy have such a different opinion?" People are honestly just trying to help man, so what is with all of the resistance to that?
Your general outlook is poor. To be blunt, I would not want to work around you for that single reason. If you take some time to develop an optimistic attitude, I think you will find success in other areas of your life.
It keeps sounding as if people aren't really reading my posts, but just the thread title.
I did not start this thread to solicit advice for myself (again, I'd have posted in the portfolio forum if I had sought that). I was trying to discuss the current situation in the industry as it relates to hiring and jobs on a general basis, taking into account the massive amount of cost-cutting measures that have been implemented by most large companies and how that is negatively impacting the marketplace.
There is probably more people in studios now than there ever was, and there is probably more job opportunities than ever.
Its just that hiring requires your skills to be better than ever too. That's why everyone keeps talking about talent/skill-- Because most people who feel that 'finding a job is so impossible' are just not good enough yet.
The first being that I get email updates daily from places like Simply Hired that have keywords attached. In that light, the emails contain every job posting that is 3d based and sends it my way to look at.
Can't tell you how many new places to look it's given me to look as i get my network together.
The second is that I am currently porting over the 11 second club rig to use in Max. It's a fun animatable rig that will be available soon to anyone who wants it.
After which, my next project, which will be even bigger and more complex, will be a new morphing rig. Again free to anyone who wants to use it.
In the words of my mentor, he asks "What's the big idea?"
In other words, do you want to pick up someone else's idea and run with it, or present your own. I decided to go with the latter in order to bust that hiring door apart at the hinges.
You can do the same and in doing so, not burn up valuable energy worrying about whether or not there is a job for you out there. These day's you can make your own.
And if you are still with me, the higher execs in the financial corporate world, don't look online, or read the classifieds to find an opportunity to apply too. They find a sponsor (network) within the company they wish to approach. This sponsor helps them to navigate the company and directs them to the people they need to speak to.
After which, and when the time is right, they present their idea to the company.
If the corporation wants them the hire them into a position. If no position is available...they <i>create</i> one.
I'm not sure how much useful information I'll bring in, but I'll just say what I personally learned so far about this industry:
This industry changes very fast, so ALWAYS be working on your skills, at full pace( if you're doing next gen at work, work on your painted stuff at home, if you're working on painted/mobile stuff, work on next-gen at home. Staying up to date is sometimes hard once you have a full-time job I think)
If you're good( and I mean, actually good, not just good enough) you'll eventually get hired.
The first job is the hardest to get, it should get easier from then ( if you keep working on your skills ofc)
And as for what all those freshly graduated artists/juniors should do, I dont know. I wish they'd read polycount more often before they made any big decisions.
( oh and when I use the word 'you' I'm talking general, not YOU you :P )
People are honestly just trying to help man, so what is with all of the resistance to that?
What exactly am I resisting here? Whose help have I outright rejected? I'm pretty sure I thanked others in previous posts. Are you just putting words in my mouth to win some sort of argument?
Your general outlook is poor. To be blunt, I would not want to work around you for that single reason. If you take some time to develop an optimistic attitude, I think you will find success in other areas of your life.
I sure wouldn't want to work with someone who blatantly misconstrues and twists my words.
Separate post. To all those who've taken the time to give your own incredible advice, insight and personal experience in the matter. Thank you. I really appreciate it and believe me, I'm reading your words very closely and I apologize if I haven't had the time to respond to everyone's key points.
This is probably the point at which I would drop that line of conversation and just get back on topic, doesn't matter who's right or wrong
On topic:
Also, I plan my future in sections of at least 6-12 months. If there's a job I want I think to myself: Alright, I've got 6 months to get my portfolio up to the point that I feel like I could work at their level. It's not ideal, and I understand not everyone can afford to not haven an income for that long, but I guess our industry can be rough.
The stance I was referring to your original subject of this thread. I don't know what you were expecting people's reactions to be, but I feel it is safe to say that they are not in agreement with your thesis. So therefore, perhaps you are wrong... just something to consider.
To the other two points: well, I'm sorry you feel that way, heh.
You expressed the notion that it's increasingly difficult to break into the industry; that juniors compete with seniors for the same positions and that the expectations for junior level positions are impossibly high.
Everyone here has disagreed and informed you of the opposite.
This is exactly the kind of discourse that was appropriate and informative.
The industry has always experienced a fluctuation. Studios close, mass layoffs happes, new studios form, mass recruitment starts. It has happened year after year.
OP, your portfolio isn't good enough to land you a job yet, especially in the states where there is so much competition. Sorry if that's too harsh. There are no standout pieces in your portfolio that I can see. You know the workflow, now just start a thread in Pimping and Previews and start getting better. A few assets that are OK and technically accomplished isn't as good as 2 or 3 really nice complete environments, and then 4 or 5 standalone assets that are equally as nice.
I can't agree with the notion that Senior artists do not take the same positions as Junior artists because I've seen it happen with my own eyes.
I don't recall saying the expectation for Junior Artist positions was impossibly high. I was saying there aren't many "Junior Artist" positions being offered.
the impossibility of a task is based on individual perspective hence the misconception that the thread is about you and not the industry. If it seems impossible to you then look at your individaul situation and alter it until you no longer consider it impossible, fucking hard is acceptable, but impossible is a defeated word and can do you no good.
There is no magic formula to land a job in any industry I'm afraid, let alone a creative field, where the ability to do the job is more subjective based on the views of peers than on education or certification....
Determination, and hard bloody work generally do the trick, sometimes you are just the right person at the right time.
On the subject of being called talented, I used to feel the same, but nowdays its ok by me....I have been called a lot worse If someone wants to pay enough attention to my work to form any sort of opinion at all then I'm happy.
Yeah I think most of the guys here have really stated some awesome and very valid arguments against your case and that isn't being said to be rude.
Our industry is highly competitive and while there may be schools pumping out students with degrees 9 times out of 10 those students think that is enough. The few that really succeed and go on are the ones that join places like Polycount, work their asses off, etc.
I had a job right out of school. No experience at all except for what I had from school. There are guys from my class that still (5 years later) have never had a job in games. The difference? Work ethic.
I would hear from other students so many excuses why they couldn't get shit done. I was playing WOW, I went to the movies, I was playing games, I went to the beach, I hung out with friends. NONE of those are valid. Sure having a personal life is a must but you also have to sacrifice a little bit to ever see reward. While I was in school I worked full time, did web sites on the side, had a wife and then we had our first child. I still managed to get my work done and have a decent folio.
I have also had some shitty jobs. Since spring of 2007 I have moved 9 times. Not small moves mind you because of new jobs, layoffs, studio closures. In the last 3 years alone I have worked at 5 different studios (counting my current job). To be honest a few of the jobs were complete shit, but you know what. They pay the same type of money (perhaps not as much) but it will all pay your bills.
This year after Christmas I lost my job again after just losing my other one before that in October. I decided I was done with messing around. I got pretty complacent with my work and was just "happy" I guess you could say. A few fellow Polycounters helped push me in the right direction and I started to make a bigger push. Made some adjustments to my folio, did freelance (whatever I could get to pay bills) and applied to all the places I really wanted to work at.
I did art test after art test with whatever free time I had and now I have my dream job. It wasn't handed to me. Just like everyone else on this board was never just handed a job. You have to work your ass off. Make friends and connections. During my interview I tried to make a good bond with everyone on the team and in the end it paid off.
You have to realize that more and more people want to make games now. That doesn't mean they can. If you want to set yourself apart from the crowd you have to really go above and beyond. Compare your folio to some of the guys that we consider 3d gods and be honest. I look at my folio still and think I have quite a bit more time before I am on par with the guys I want to be on par with.
It's up to you (the individual) to put forth the effort and if you want it bad enough it will happen. People become masters because they worked their asses off and didn't give up.
Everyone has become a lot more patient with people getting into the industry that are worried about the entry system. I remember when I had these worries last year and everyone shook some ruddy good sense into me.
I realized that the more I objected to peoples advice on how it is because I was frustrated, the more I was diminishing my chances of landing a job because It puts professionals off when they are made to feel they had it easy getting in and all their advice based on what they did is pretty much dismissed. These posters and people just viewing your thread could be the person you meet at your next job interview since the industry is small and most of the employed come here.
If we go back to the original post the the complaint was about the lack of junior positions and how students struggle to get their portfolios viewed, couple of points on job security and although you said it wasn't about your personal situation, you then eluded to it with this line
"Even I with a few years of experience am unemployed and do not have much in the way of good prospect"
As soon as you put that it includes your situation and most people will look at your profile and look to your portfolio to see why and give valuable advice that you should just take in and accept regardless of whether its in the general section or not.
The way I see it, is that if anyone of the posters in this thread took the time to help me by providing crits on my portfolio at anytime then I'm quite lucky because crits are basically gold dust for someone trying to get a job, you need to gather them, accept them and act on them.
I remember last week speaking to a student who said "I hate posting on polycount because everyone attacks me and my work" its just totally a self defeating attitude. There's a huge difference between criticism and insult/disrespect especially when your in a situation where criticism is almost always going to be constructive.
Alright, "Impossible" and "Modeler" were the wrong words. I should have framed it more as in such "there is a scarcity of entry-level jobs being offered", especially compared to the past (ie. before the recession).
Also, I've already sacrificed a personal/social life in pursuit of my goals and am not being distracted by such things. But again, that's what can lead to constant second guessing as you devote more and more time into your work, but it never seems to pay off.
For instance, I was so certain I had a few pieces that were standout quality (been told so by former colleagues, not just my own opinion), but have been told here that I really have none. So, now I am second guessing myself in my current content creation and wondering if I'm even on the right track or not.
I also don't agree with a scarcity of entry level jobs either. Hell right now here at Treyarch we have a bunch of openings for entry (jr/associate) level spots in a variety of positions open and that is to work on a big title like Call of Duty.
Sure they may be temp positions (some fulltime) but it's experience and def having Call of Duty and work from it on your folio/resume wouldn't hurt either...
I also don't agree with a scarcity of entry level jobs either. Hell right now here at Treyarch we have a bunch of openings for entry (jr/associate) level spots in a variety of positions open and that is to work on a big title like Call of Duty.
Sure they may be temp positions (some fulltime) but it's experience and def having Call of Duty and work from it on your folio/resume wouldn't hurt either...
Thanks for the tip. But it would have helped to keep the discussion general if I had worded it differently instead of using loaded terms that turned it personal.
These posters and people just viewing your thread could be the person you meet at your next job interview since the industry is small and most of the employed come here.
If we go back to the original post the the complaint was about the lack of junior positions and how students struggle to get their portfolios viewed, couple of points on job security and although you said it wasn't about your personal situation, you then eluded to it with this line
"Even I with a few years of experience am unemployed and do not have much in the way of good prospect"
As soon as you put that it includes your situation and most people will look at your profile and look to your portfolio to see why and give valuable advice that you should just take in and accept regardless of whether its in the general section or not.
The way I see it, is that if anyone of the posters in this thread took the time to help me by providing crits on my portfolio at anytime then I'm quite lucky because crits are basically gold dust for someone trying to get a job, you need to gather them, accept them and act on them.
Agreed. I was actually caught off guard by the huge posts with all the information given. Like I said, comparatively, when I made my portfolio thread in the other forum, I got pretty much nothing (again, also took that to mean that there was nothing worth commenting on), so it was quite jarring to wake up in the morning and see post after post and getting overwhelmed by it all.
I can really understand the frustration, as i have seen this happen to many people,
as for myself I don`t really have a portfolio to brag about, mostly because I don`t have much power or time to work on it after already working with the same thing for 10hours.
But when the experience stack up and you do what you should and keep getting better at it you gain value and more companies feel they want you working for them, you just kinda need to get that first job,
now i haven`t looked at your portfolio but i can assure you most people would be able to enter this industry if they really wanted, just find the right way, if you honestly feel that you don`t have good artistic skills lean towards getting better at technical parts of 3D, and the other way around, but for sure you will still need to be at least good at all parts of the creation aspects.
everyone has to work hard, some people do have some talent and will learn things faster, but I still think everyone can with hard work.
Times aren`t perfect and we all have to kinda work hard to stay in the field, I just started a new job in japan, and as everyone here is 99% art and not so much technical i kinda feel that what they really want from me is to be more of a technical artist, so guess what, that`s what I`ll be working hard on.
There is no scarcity of entry level positions. If your work is strong, you should never be discouraged to apply. Companies seldom pass over an awesome portfolio due to level of experience or seniority.
Just because the position isn't explicitly "junior" or "entry-level" doesn't mean you are not a potential candidate.
Companies list junior position to throttle salary expectations, most other companies don't list junior positions to avoid the aforementioned spam of substandard portfolios.
I can't agree with the notion that Senior artists do not take the same positions as Junior artists because I've seen it happen with my own eyes.
Can you give more context to this incident ?
You should forget the whole "Junior" or "Senior" notion. It can be misleading.
If you work stands out, it will get you employed, period.
If you are having troubles getting responses from companies, then your portfolio should be your first area of concern.
It's as simple as checking out industry portfolios and seeing if your work matches the quality bar. It's really that simple.
What bugs me is that painters or sculptors or craftsmen never get asked about "how they got where they are". It's a career and a craft so it naturally involves a lot of passion and hard work to carve out a career and establish yourself as a professional. It's common sense. However, there is this misinformed notion that to be a digital 3d artist is a job with a nebulous secret. No, it's a career, plain and simple. To think that it's a position that's somehow different than being a fine artist is daft and the onslaught of awful school programs promising to make you an employable asset doesn't help.
Contrary to what is believed by those outside the industry, not everyone has the predisposition or the true passion and work ethic to break in this field.
It's not that it's difficult, it's just that it's not supposed to be easy.
Without getting into too much detail, experienced artist was hired for lower level position, yes, even accepting lower salary, since lower salary was better than no salary at all.
I'll be thrilled to know that it was more an exception and not the rule.
You should forget the whole "Junior" or "Senior" notion. It can be misleading.
If you work stands out, it will get you employed, period.
I suppose my confusion here comes from previous job pursuits that didn't pan out and the result/feedback I was given was "we've decided to choose a more experienced candidate", which I meant to mean someone who had more years and resume qualifications than I did.
Yeah well the pimp zone is like a trading floor/mosh pit some days, lots of threads get missed, its just luck of the draw unless you bump the post. It can be hard to know at what point in a project to post up too, generally when textures start coming in I find.
Without getting into too much detail, experienced artist was hired for lower level position, yes, even accepting lower salary, since lower salary was better than no salary at all.
I'll be thrilled to know that it was more an exception and not the rule.
that is too generalized, and very much dependent, on the persons situation. Yes if your highly experienced, and have some savings you will prolly wait for a better opportunity, but say there is a skilled person who would normally take a senior job, who has a ton of bills hanging over his head, and isn't quite making rent, hell ya he would be taking the first opportunity possible.
Without getting into too much detail, experienced artist was hired for lower level position, yes, even accepting lower salary, since lower salary was better than no salary at all.
I'll be thrilled to know that it was more an exception and not the rule.
I suppose my confusion here comes from previous job pursuits that didn't pan out and the result/feedback I was given was "we've decided to choose a more experienced candidate", which I meant to mean someone who had more years and resume qualifications than I did.
It's a generic line they give every candidate that they don't end up pursuing. it's designed not to hurt your feelings. Most likely it means that your work wasn't good enough.
But that shouldn't be a deterrent, rather a motivation to become better.
Its actually just as much as template as the line "2 years experience required". At lot of the time its just an agency worker who has no experience of being an artist just using their own interpretation of what they think their client wants from applicants. In reality the only requirement is skill, good art.
Also when they use that dear John template to turn you down, remember it isn't rude to ask for feedback on why you were turned down, it gives you an opportunity to reapply with the right art later on.
"we've decided to choose a more experienced candidate", which I meant to mean someone who had more years and resume qualifications than I did.
9 times out of 10 this means your work is not good enough for what they are looking for and that is a more positive way to spin it then, "sorry your portfolio and art test does not meet our level of quality for the position."
If there is one thing I learned from playing sports (baseball) through life is you will never hit the ball if you don't swing at a pitch. I have swung many times in various aspects throughout my life and missed the mark greatly. It all depends on how you look at it though. Ted Williams was the last person to have a season long batting average over .400 that still means 6 times out of 10 he failed, but yet he is perhaps one of the greatest hitters of all time and he failed more often then he succeeded.
I'm late to this, but don't worry about exactly how many years of experience is listed; that's usually there to make sure only people with solid experience are applying (this is subject to change if the job really does require you to have a specific number of years for technical reasons, like for getting a visa).
Some advice: don't stress. Why? Because it is near impossible to reach a solid state of flow when your mind is frantic and desperate for greatness. Getting quality work done is less a matter of talent and more of discipline, so keep working solidly and methodically. It's so easy to get distracted and to become frenzied and anxious; imo lack of discipline is primarily why most people fail.
I'll have to reiterate what I think someone else said before; if you make something beautiful then you're well on your way.
If you can come up with concepts, lores, stories, ideas, then you can build from them as a foundation and find new things in them; and even if you can't find a job, you may be able to attract interest from other people in the same boat to working on a project and starting something independently. For people who want the hack way to being a modeler in the industry, it's simply just go ahead and be a modeler in the industry.
9 times out of 10 this means your work is not good enough for what they are looking for and that is a more positive way to spin it then, "sorry your portfolio and art test does not meet our level of quality for the position."
I see. I think I even got that one though after getting to the in-person interview (past the art test, etc.), and I can recall asking what was the deciding factor and could swear they told me that the other candidate was just "more experienced". But now thinking back on it I suppose that was just as you said, merely a nice way of saying I wasn't good enough. Though I just never made that connection.
Some advice: don't stress. Why? Because it is near impossible to reach a solid state of flow when your mind is frantic and desperate for greatness. Getting quality work done is less a matter of talent and more of discipline, so keep working solidly and methodically. It's so easy to get distracted and to become frenzied and anxious; imo lack of discipline is primarily why most people fail.
I'll have to reiterate what I think someone else said before; if you make something beautiful then you're well on your way.
If you can come up with concepts, lores, stories, ideas, then you can build from them as a foundation and find new things in them; and even if you can't find a job, you may be able to attract interest from other people in the same boat to working on a project and starting something independently.
Thank you for that. It's easy to become stressed as time goes by and you begin to wonder what productivity is being accomplished when you create new things but don't get anywhere. It's funny you should say "if you make something beautiful then you're well on your way" since a part of my problem is I can't say for sure I have made something beautiful, or rather, if I think I make something beautiful, I can't be sure of it, since others can simply say, "no, that is not beautiful at all".
Since I might as well continue to see if I can get more positive things out of this thread. Anyone still interested in giving portfolio feedback/thoughts, I still welcome it: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96882
And yes, I'm used to the "it sucks" critiques, so don't worry.
9 times out of 10 this means your work is not good enough for what they are looking for and that is a more positive way to spin it then, "sorry your portfolio and art test does not meet our level of quality for the position."
QFT. this happens to everyone. Sometimes they actually email you back and ask you to show them newer work, it's happened to me before.
Are there any entry level general modeling/digital sculpting positions available in WA?
I'm getting into texturing, but I really have no idea how long it's going to be until I'll be reliable with it.
Should I just wait until I have a fully fleshed out portfolio with 100% completed game models?
It's a weird position, I'm not even entirely sure if I want to jump into game dev, is there anything wrong with just wanting to do modeling and sculpting?
What kind of a position could I find if that's all I'd like to do?
Most places will not list a position as "entry level" or "no experience necessary". Positions listing 1-4 years experience can be considered junior to associate level.
Rai: Jr. positions still expect you to be proficient at modeling and texturing. Internships might be more forgivable.
Yes, there are a lot of places that don't treat their employees very well and view them as nothing more than cheap labor. That probably won't ever end. Still, there are many great companies that value their employees and are just genuinely fun and fulfilling places to work. I, along with many others here will vouch for that.
Hearing someone tell you to just "make better art" and to keep applying is tiring, but there is little else you can do if you want to get a good job. Look at the portfolios of people who have the job that you want and try to do better.
You have to be able to put the negativity aside and save it for something else, because it won't help you get to where you want to be. It can be stressful and there may be disappointment, but with enough effort and time, you will find a job.
It's hard to get a job as a professional basketball player, too. In a field with a LOT of expert level applicants and a finite amount of jobs, you need to get very, very good to even have a chance. Judge yourself realistically and get yourself up to a competitive level of skill.
If you think wanting to be a 3d artist is tough, try aspiring to get a studio job in concept art. I think I can safely say I'm many hundreds of hours more experienced than you and I still have a very long way to go.
I'm nowhere near as qualified as others here to give advice, apart from the fact that I've spent a good deal of posts on polycount being as upset as you were at the beginning of this thread.
Welcome to polycount. I'd say being mad at the industry and getting a helpful reality check by the people here is a right of passage, hell it may even happen several times before you even get anywhere.
Take on the advice, the people here are the good face of the industry that at times it is so hard to see. This is why I keep coming back, even though I still haven't broken in, even though it can be a struggle.
Some of the things that keep me going:
Don't give up. For me, the tragic knowledge of not being in the industry has become a kind of running in-joke to me; a joke that will stop being funny if I give up. Sometimes it can be sad that I'm not in the industry, but really I should cheer up: because I'm here at polycount, the closest thing I've got, with people who are developers giving great conversation, and great advice. If you're with polycount - You're in.
My advice to people that are going through this is make more art. This is the time you have to learn new things that you want to excel at. Make art that is competitive, and most of all learn what it is that you should focus on if you want to be a real asset to a studio. Usually this comes straight from you work. Your portfolio. The better it is, the easier it is for you to get a call back.
If you don't get a call, then join mod groups, get your hands on and really make a difference in how people will see you as a candidate. We just talked to some near graduates from RPI here, and we talked for a good while about how volatile this industry is, and how competitive it is to join the industry... but also, we are in a time where games are very accessible and you can develop your own. Sure it won't bring any revenue as a starter, but believe me... all that effort will not go unnoticed if in your resume you have a small game that is available, that works and that you worked on. Seriously... we are living in a time where a lot of transitions are happening, bigger studios get bigger, smaller studios start to appear and have been having moderate success. So don't let something like getting a job stop you from doing what you want to do.
Which brings me to the last point... talk to people. Expand your networks and friendships. You never know... but a high percentage of the time you will be getting a job by reference, or because you know people that know you are a hardworking guy, and you know what you are doing. Polycount is perfect for this, and for all of the above. You are getting feedback from people IN the industry, that sincerely want to pass good knowledge, share and keep a community that its biggest strength is art.
So trust me.. it might take a while...and times might get hard. But to those who persevere and make themselves stand out are the ones that make it, and once you are in IT IS TOTALLY WORTH IT.
You ask anyone here if its worth it to be in the industry, i bet 9 out 10 will tell you absolutely.
So make art, share it, talk to people, and learn! There are so many tools at your disposal. Engines are free to use, communities of modding are out there making interesting mods to successful games, and you can get honest and constructive feedback to make your art better 100 times just by being active.
The reason I wouldn't post a 'junior' position on a company website is to automatically cull the applicants that feel like they don't have the confidence or experience to apply.
If I saw a junior level artist apply with an awesome portfolio I wouldn't pass him up.
What I'm saying is 'just apply'. What can it hurt you?
1 Year of hard work is all you need, 6-8 hours per day.
If you're skilled enough you'll land a job, that's the nr 1 priority. You can be an asshole and still find work, people won't like you but if you're awesome you'll have work anyways. (Not recommended though).
Focus on what you need to learn to get to the level where you start looking interesting to recruiters and other artists. Have a plan and follow it. You need to have a critical eye, and just start analyzing what makes other peoples work look good. Break it down and apply it to your own work. You'll get better at it with experience
Nr 2 on your priority list should be networking, most of the time you'll find work through others.
ummmm, actually that's part of the reason you have an on-site interview, to determine if the candidate will mesh with the other workers. An asshole can poison the whole team and kill productivity.
Quoted for truth. I am not in the industry yet because my skill level is not up to par. Anyone in this situation has only one choice, practice. You can't just expect to do some modeling an hour a day and get a job in the industry you need to work for it. Try and get 5 or 6 hours a day(my guess 3-4 of those will be productive)
Once you do that everyday and have fun with it(most important thing) jobs will start to contact you when you send them your resume. Hard work and a good attitude pays off.
That is so true! Happened to me long time ago. And that's how it started.
Some advice: don't stress. Why? Because it is near impossible to reach a solid state of flow when your mind is frantic and desperate for greatness. Getting quality work done is less a matter of talent and more of discipline, so keep working solidly and methodically. It's so easy to get distracted and to become frenzied and anxious; imo lack of discipline is primarily why most people fail.
I was out of work for most of the first half of last year, and all I did was do more art (usually working from when I woke up to when I went to bed), pick up a few freelance/contract jobs here and there, do a ton of art tests (sometimes 3-4 at a time sadly), and email hundreds a month. It's frustrating to be in a situation like that, but it should also inspire you to do better.
You need to know what the bar is too for the rest of the industry. Coming on to here, or going to social networking sites like linkedin or twitter and looking at people in the industry's portfolios is huge!
I'm nowhere near as qualified as others here to give advice, apart from the fact that I've spent a good deal of posts on polycount being as upset as you were at the beginning of this thread.
Welcome to polycount. I'd say being mad at the industry and getting a helpful reality check by the people here is a right of passage, hell it may even happen several times before you even get anywhere.
Take on the advice, the people here are the good face of the industry that at times it is so hard to see. This is why I keep coming back, even though I still haven't broken in, even though it can be a struggle.
Some of the things that keep me going:
Don't give up. For me, the tragic knowledge of not being in the industry has become a kind of running in-joke to me; a joke that will stop being funny if I give up. Sometimes it can be sad that I'm not in the industry, but really I should cheer up: because I'm here at polycount, the closest thing I've got, with people who are developers giving great conversation, and great advice. If you're with polycount - You're in.
Yep, everyone gets a hazing at the start, better to get it out the way early I say
ummmm, actually that's part of the reason you have an on-site interview, to determine if the candidate will mesh with the other workers. An asshole can poison the whole team and kill productivity.
Ofcourse and yet we still find those people in the dev-teams. So, yeah, skilled enough or know the right people you'll find work even though you might have a bad attitude.
What I'm saying is 'just apply'. What can it hurt you?
True, true and true.
I got 2 jobs that way.
First gig I applied as character modeler, even though I had almost no experience. After 3 months I suddenly got a call if I can start within a week - they put my name on file.
Applied as env artist even though I had almost no folio pieces but I was desperate. I got a char modeler position offer instead. win!
Oh man, this is easy. You cant get a job because your portfolio isnt good enough yet.
Simply put, the work and the website presentation isnt going to impress anyone, and even for junior positions there will be applicants with more polished work.
However, I can see you have potential, so dont be disheartened, just do some new stuff, and really concentrate on presentation and materials.
I am in much the same position, companies talk to me, then slowly shut the door in my face. I feel like a jehovahs witness!
Maybe the bloody knife prop i took to my last interview was a little bit creepy....
First gig I applied as character modeler, even though I had almost no experience. After 3 months I suddenly got a call if I can start within a week - they put my name on file.
Applied as env artist even though I had almost no folio pieces but I was desperate. I got a char modeler position offer instead. win!
Also don't forget to be genuine in every application. Actually properly apply for the position, and if it's a cold application, make it a genuine best foot forward showing that you actually know about the studio and want to work there. Don't send out form letters.
Effort, that's what all boils down to. That's the real distinction I've noticed between people who will succeed in the industry and people who wont or just don't want to enough.
It's also the thing that comes across most in a portfolio, you can tell in an instant if someone has put in the effort , the hours, the practice and the passion.
I notice with juniors and interns, the ones who have the passion just to make art, regardless of where, when or how, tend to stay with us in the long run, 'effort = care', and some do not want to put in the effort in being afraid to progress; If they don't take critiques as a way to progress and improve or if at the first hurdle their ambitions falter if the industry doesn't give them everything at the very start... Then Art is obviously not their passion.
Success is hard work. But hard work is easy if your passionate about what you do.
I write this as a general response, not specifically about any one person.
Although if you personally are looking to improve, as everyone should be Then congratz for this is the place to do it.
- Art, applications, interviews & networking. There's something for everything.
In this age of Minecraft and digital distribution. I think that good artists can simply network together + find a few programmers and make their own games in UDK, blender, CE3 or some other engine such as C4.
Replies
And it has indeed been discussed at length. Look at all of the insight which has been given on the hiring process alone - what studios are looking for, skill requirements, actual listing, etc. You don't respond to those posts however, but key in on the one or two liners directed specifically at you.
You had to have anticipated that responses would naturally progress into a question of, "well, why does this guy have such a different opinion?" People are honestly just trying to help man, so what is with all of the resistance to that?
Your general outlook is poor. To be blunt, I would not want to work around you for that single reason. If you take some time to develop an optimistic attitude, I think you will find success in other areas of your life.
There is probably more people in studios now than there ever was, and there is probably more job opportunities than ever.
Its just that hiring requires your skills to be better than ever too. That's why everyone keeps talking about talent/skill-- Because most people who feel that 'finding a job is so impossible' are just not good enough yet.
The first being that I get email updates daily from places like Simply Hired that have keywords attached. In that light, the emails contain every job posting that is 3d based and sends it my way to look at.
Can't tell you how many new places to look it's given me to look as i get my network together.
The second is that I am currently porting over the 11 second club rig to use in Max. It's a fun animatable rig that will be available soon to anyone who wants it.
After which, my next project, which will be even bigger and more complex, will be a new morphing rig. Again free to anyone who wants to use it.
In the words of my mentor, he asks "What's the big idea?"
In other words, do you want to pick up someone else's idea and run with it, or present your own. I decided to go with the latter in order to bust that hiring door apart at the hinges.
You can do the same and in doing so, not burn up valuable energy worrying about whether or not there is a job for you out there. These day's you can make your own.
And if you are still with me, the higher execs in the financial corporate world, don't look online, or read the classifieds to find an opportunity to apply too. They find a sponsor (network) within the company they wish to approach. This sponsor helps them to navigate the company and directs them to the people they need to speak to.
After which, and when the time is right, they present their idea to the company.
If the corporation wants them the hire them into a position. If no position is available...they <i>create</i> one.
And as for what all those freshly graduated artists/juniors should do, I dont know. I wish they'd read polycount more often before they made any big decisions.
( oh and when I use the word 'you' I'm talking general, not YOU you :P )
His folio: http://sankalpchandra.daportfolio.com/
Whoah, he listed FarCry as one of his credits.
On topic:
Also, I plan my future in sections of at least 6-12 months. If there's a job I want I think to myself: Alright, I've got 6 months to get my portfolio up to the point that I feel like I could work at their level. It's not ideal, and I understand not everyone can afford to not haven an income for that long, but I guess our industry can be rough.
The stance I was referring to your original subject of this thread. I don't know what you were expecting people's reactions to be, but I feel it is safe to say that they are not in agreement with your thesis. So therefore, perhaps you are wrong... just something to consider.
To the other two points: well, I'm sorry you feel that way, heh.
Goodluck with your job search.
Everyone here has disagreed and informed you of the opposite.
This is exactly the kind of discourse that was appropriate and informative.
The industry has always experienced a fluctuation. Studios close, mass layoffs happes, new studios form, mass recruitment starts. It has happened year after year.
Click on his username. His website is listed.
OP, your portfolio isn't good enough to land you a job yet, especially in the states where there is so much competition. Sorry if that's too harsh. There are no standout pieces in your portfolio that I can see. You know the workflow, now just start a thread in Pimping and Previews and start getting better. A few assets that are OK and technically accomplished isn't as good as 2 or 3 really nice complete environments, and then 4 or 5 standalone assets that are equally as nice.
I don't recall saying the expectation for Junior Artist positions was impossibly high. I was saying there aren't many "Junior Artist" positions being offered.
There is no magic formula to land a job in any industry I'm afraid, let alone a creative field, where the ability to do the job is more subjective based on the views of peers than on education or certification....
Determination, and hard bloody work generally do the trick, sometimes you are just the right person at the right time.
On the subject of being called talented, I used to feel the same, but nowdays its ok by me....I have been called a lot worse
Our industry is highly competitive and while there may be schools pumping out students with degrees 9 times out of 10 those students think that is enough. The few that really succeed and go on are the ones that join places like Polycount, work their asses off, etc.
I had a job right out of school. No experience at all except for what I had from school. There are guys from my class that still (5 years later) have never had a job in games. The difference? Work ethic.
I would hear from other students so many excuses why they couldn't get shit done. I was playing WOW, I went to the movies, I was playing games, I went to the beach, I hung out with friends. NONE of those are valid. Sure having a personal life is a must but you also have to sacrifice a little bit to ever see reward. While I was in school I worked full time, did web sites on the side, had a wife and then we had our first child. I still managed to get my work done and have a decent folio.
I have also had some shitty jobs. Since spring of 2007 I have moved 9 times. Not small moves mind you because of new jobs, layoffs, studio closures. In the last 3 years alone I have worked at 5 different studios (counting my current job). To be honest a few of the jobs were complete shit, but you know what. They pay the same type of money (perhaps not as much) but it will all pay your bills.
This year after Christmas I lost my job again after just losing my other one before that in October. I decided I was done with messing around. I got pretty complacent with my work and was just "happy" I guess you could say. A few fellow Polycounters helped push me in the right direction and I started to make a bigger push. Made some adjustments to my folio, did freelance (whatever I could get to pay bills) and applied to all the places I really wanted to work at.
I did art test after art test with whatever free time I had and now I have my dream job. It wasn't handed to me. Just like everyone else on this board was never just handed a job. You have to work your ass off. Make friends and connections. During my interview I tried to make a good bond with everyone on the team and in the end it paid off.
You have to realize that more and more people want to make games now. That doesn't mean they can. If you want to set yourself apart from the crowd you have to really go above and beyond. Compare your folio to some of the guys that we consider 3d gods and be honest. I look at my folio still and think I have quite a bit more time before I am on par with the guys I want to be on par with.
It's up to you (the individual) to put forth the effort and if you want it bad enough it will happen. People become masters because they worked their asses off and didn't give up.
I realized that the more I objected to peoples advice on how it is because I was frustrated, the more I was diminishing my chances of landing a job because It puts professionals off when they are made to feel they had it easy getting in and all their advice based on what they did is pretty much dismissed. These posters and people just viewing your thread could be the person you meet at your next job interview since the industry is small and most of the employed come here.
If we go back to the original post the the complaint was about the lack of junior positions and how students struggle to get their portfolios viewed, couple of points on job security and although you said it wasn't about your personal situation, you then eluded to it with this line
"Even I with a few years of experience am unemployed and do not have much in the way of good prospect"
As soon as you put that it includes your situation and most people will look at your profile and look to your portfolio to see why and give valuable advice that you should just take in and accept regardless of whether its in the general section or not.
The way I see it, is that if anyone of the posters in this thread took the time to help me by providing crits on my portfolio at anytime then I'm quite lucky because crits are basically gold dust for someone trying to get a job, you need to gather them, accept them and act on them.
I remember last week speaking to a student who said "I hate posting on polycount because everyone attacks me and my work" its just totally a self defeating attitude. There's a huge difference between criticism and insult/disrespect especially when your in a situation where criticism is almost always going to be constructive.
Also, I've already sacrificed a personal/social life in pursuit of my goals and am not being distracted by such things. But again, that's what can lead to constant second guessing as you devote more and more time into your work, but it never seems to pay off.
For instance, I was so certain I had a few pieces that were standout quality (been told so by former colleagues, not just my own opinion), but have been told here that I really have none. So, now I am second guessing myself in my current content creation and wondering if I'm even on the right track or not.
Sure they may be temp positions (some fulltime) but it's experience and def having Call of Duty and work from it on your folio/resume wouldn't hurt either...
as for myself I don`t really have a portfolio to brag about, mostly because I don`t have much power or time to work on it after already working with the same thing for 10hours.
But when the experience stack up and you do what you should and keep getting better at it you gain value and more companies feel they want you working for them, you just kinda need to get that first job,
now i haven`t looked at your portfolio but i can assure you most people would be able to enter this industry if they really wanted, just find the right way, if you honestly feel that you don`t have good artistic skills lean towards getting better at technical parts of 3D, and the other way around, but for sure you will still need to be at least good at all parts of the creation aspects.
everyone has to work hard, some people do have some talent and will learn things faster, but I still think everyone can with hard work.
Times aren`t perfect and we all have to kinda work hard to stay in the field, I just started a new job in japan, and as everyone here is 99% art and not so much technical i kinda feel that what they really want from me is to be more of a technical artist, so guess what, that`s what I`ll be working hard on.
Just because the position isn't explicitly "junior" or "entry-level" doesn't mean you are not a potential candidate.
Companies list junior position to throttle salary expectations, most other companies don't list junior positions to avoid the aforementioned spam of substandard portfolios.
Can you give more context to this incident ?
You should forget the whole "Junior" or "Senior" notion. It can be misleading.
If you work stands out, it will get you employed, period.
If you are having troubles getting responses from companies, then your portfolio should be your first area of concern.
It's as simple as checking out industry portfolios and seeing if your work matches the quality bar. It's really that simple.
What bugs me is that painters or sculptors or craftsmen never get asked about "how they got where they are". It's a career and a craft so it naturally involves a lot of passion and hard work to carve out a career and establish yourself as a professional. It's common sense. However, there is this misinformed notion that to be a digital 3d artist is a job with a nebulous secret. No, it's a career, plain and simple. To think that it's a position that's somehow different than being a fine artist is daft and the onslaught of awful school programs promising to make you an employable asset doesn't help.
Contrary to what is believed by those outside the industry, not everyone has the predisposition or the true passion and work ethic to break in this field.
It's not that it's difficult, it's just that it's not supposed to be easy.
I'll be thrilled to know that it was more an exception and not the rule. I suppose my confusion here comes from previous job pursuits that didn't pan out and the result/feedback I was given was "we've decided to choose a more experienced candidate", which I meant to mean someone who had more years and resume qualifications than I did.
that is too generalized, and very much dependent, on the persons situation. Yes if your highly experienced, and have some savings you will prolly wait for a better opportunity, but say there is a skilled person who would normally take a senior job, who has a ton of bills hanging over his head, and isn't quite making rent, hell ya he would be taking the first opportunity possible.
It's a generic line they give every candidate that they don't end up pursuing. it's designed not to hurt your feelings. Most likely it means that your work wasn't good enough.
But that shouldn't be a deterrent, rather a motivation to become better.
Also when they use that dear John template to turn you down, remember it isn't rude to ask for feedback on why you were turned down, it gives you an opportunity to reapply with the right art later on.
9 times out of 10 this means your work is not good enough for what they are looking for and that is a more positive way to spin it then, "sorry your portfolio and art test does not meet our level of quality for the position."
If there is one thing I learned from playing sports (baseball) through life is you will never hit the ball if you don't swing at a pitch. I have swung many times in various aspects throughout my life and missed the mark greatly. It all depends on how you look at it though. Ted Williams was the last person to have a season long batting average over .400 that still means 6 times out of 10 he failed, but yet he is perhaps one of the greatest hitters of all time and he failed more often then he succeeded.
What can you learn from that?
Some advice: don't stress. Why? Because it is near impossible to reach a solid state of flow when your mind is frantic and desperate for greatness. Getting quality work done is less a matter of talent and more of discipline, so keep working solidly and methodically. It's so easy to get distracted and to become frenzied and anxious; imo lack of discipline is primarily why most people fail.
I'll have to reiterate what I think someone else said before; if you make something beautiful then you're well on your way.
If you can come up with concepts, lores, stories, ideas, then you can build from them as a foundation and find new things in them; and even if you can't find a job, you may be able to attract interest from other people in the same boat to working on a project and starting something independently. For people who want the hack way to being a modeler in the industry, it's simply just go ahead and be a modeler in the industry.
Oh well. Lesson learned. Thank you for that. It's easy to become stressed as time goes by and you begin to wonder what productivity is being accomplished when you create new things but don't get anywhere. It's funny you should say "if you make something beautiful then you're well on your way" since a part of my problem is I can't say for sure I have made something beautiful, or rather, if I think I make something beautiful, I can't be sure of it, since others can simply say, "no, that is not beautiful at all".
Since I might as well continue to see if I can get more positive things out of this thread. Anyone still interested in giving portfolio feedback/thoughts, I still welcome it: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96882
And yes, I'm used to the "it sucks" critiques, so don't worry.
QFT. this happens to everyone. Sometimes they actually email you back and ask you to show them newer work, it's happened to me before.
I'm getting into texturing, but I really have no idea how long it's going to be until I'll be reliable with it.
Should I just wait until I have a fully fleshed out portfolio with 100% completed game models?
It's a weird position, I'm not even entirely sure if I want to jump into game dev, is there anything wrong with just wanting to do modeling and sculpting?
What kind of a position could I find if that's all I'd like to do?
Rai: Jr. positions still expect you to be proficient at modeling and texturing. Internships might be more forgivable.
Yes, there are a lot of places that don't treat their employees very well and view them as nothing more than cheap labor. That probably won't ever end. Still, there are many great companies that value their employees and are just genuinely fun and fulfilling places to work. I, along with many others here will vouch for that.
Hearing someone tell you to just "make better art" and to keep applying is tiring, but there is little else you can do if you want to get a good job. Look at the portfolios of people who have the job that you want and try to do better.
You have to be able to put the negativity aside and save it for something else, because it won't help you get to where you want to be. It can be stressful and there may be disappointment, but with enough effort and time, you will find a job.
your competition is elite.
It's hard to get a job as a professional basketball player, too. In a field with a LOT of expert level applicants and a finite amount of jobs, you need to get very, very good to even have a chance. Judge yourself realistically and get yourself up to a competitive level of skill.
If you think wanting to be a 3d artist is tough, try aspiring to get a studio job in concept art. I think I can safely say I'm many hundreds of hours more experienced than you and I still have a very long way to go.
Welcome to polycount. I'd say being mad at the industry and getting a helpful reality check by the people here is a right of passage, hell it may even happen several times before you even get anywhere.
Take on the advice, the people here are the good face of the industry that at times it is so hard to see. This is why I keep coming back, even though I still haven't broken in, even though it can be a struggle.
Some of the things that keep me going:
Don't give up. For me, the tragic knowledge of not being in the industry has become a kind of running in-joke to me; a joke that will stop being funny if I give up. Sometimes it can be sad that I'm not in the industry, but really I should cheer up: because I'm here at polycount, the closest thing I've got, with people who are developers giving great conversation, and great advice. If you're with polycount - You're in.
If you don't get a call, then join mod groups, get your hands on and really make a difference in how people will see you as a candidate. We just talked to some near graduates from RPI here, and we talked for a good while about how volatile this industry is, and how competitive it is to join the industry... but also, we are in a time where games are very accessible and you can develop your own. Sure it won't bring any revenue as a starter, but believe me... all that effort will not go unnoticed if in your resume you have a small game that is available, that works and that you worked on. Seriously... we are living in a time where a lot of transitions are happening, bigger studios get bigger, smaller studios start to appear and have been having moderate success. So don't let something like getting a job stop you from doing what you want to do.
Which brings me to the last point... talk to people. Expand your networks and friendships. You never know... but a high percentage of the time you will be getting a job by reference, or because you know people that know you are a hardworking guy, and you know what you are doing. Polycount is perfect for this, and for all of the above. You are getting feedback from people IN the industry, that sincerely want to pass good knowledge, share and keep a community that its biggest strength is art.
So trust me.. it might take a while...and times might get hard. But to those who persevere and make themselves stand out are the ones that make it, and once you are in IT IS TOTALLY WORTH IT.
You ask anyone here if its worth it to be in the industry, i bet 9 out 10 will tell you absolutely.
So make art, share it, talk to people, and learn! There are so many tools at your disposal. Engines are free to use, communities of modding are out there making interesting mods to successful games, and you can get honest and constructive feedback to make your art better 100 times just by being active.
If I saw a junior level artist apply with an awesome portfolio I wouldn't pass him up.
What I'm saying is 'just apply'. What can it hurt you?
If you're skilled enough you'll land a job, that's the nr 1 priority. You can be an asshole and still find work, people won't like you but if you're awesome you'll have work anyways. (Not recommended though).
Focus on what you need to learn to get to the level where you start looking interesting to recruiters and other artists. Have a plan and follow it. You need to have a critical eye, and just start analyzing what makes other peoples work look good. Break it down and apply it to your own work. You'll get better at it with experience
Nr 2 on your priority list should be networking, most of the time you'll find work through others.
ummmm, actually that's part of the reason you have an on-site interview, to determine if the candidate will mesh with the other workers. An asshole can poison the whole team and kill productivity.
That is so true! Happened to me long time ago. And that's how it started.
Best phrase posted on this thread
You need to know what the bar is too for the rest of the industry. Coming on to here, or going to social networking sites like linkedin or twitter and looking at people in the industry's portfolios is huge!
Yep, everyone gets a hazing at the start, better to get it out the way early I say
Ofcourse and yet we still find those people in the dev-teams. So, yeah, skilled enough or know the right people you'll find work even though you might have a bad attitude.
True, true and true.
I got 2 jobs that way.
First gig I applied as character modeler, even though I had almost no experience. After 3 months I suddenly got a call if I can start within a week - they put my name on file.
Applied as env artist even though I had almost no folio pieces but I was desperate. I got a char modeler position offer instead. win!
Simply put, the work and the website presentation isnt going to impress anyone, and even for junior positions there will be applicants with more polished work.
However, I can see you have potential, so dont be disheartened, just do some new stuff, and really concentrate on presentation and materials.
I am in much the same position, companies talk to me, then slowly shut the door in my face. I feel like a jehovahs witness!
Maybe the bloody knife prop i took to my last interview was a little bit creepy....
Also don't forget to be genuine in every application. Actually properly apply for the position, and if it's a cold application, make it a genuine best foot forward showing that you actually know about the studio and want to work there. Don't send out form letters.
It's also the thing that comes across most in a portfolio, you can tell in an instant if someone has put in the effort , the hours, the practice and the passion.
I notice with juniors and interns, the ones who have the passion just to make art, regardless of where, when or how, tend to stay with us in the long run, 'effort = care', and some do not want to put in the effort in being afraid to progress; If they don't take critiques as a way to progress and improve or if at the first hurdle their ambitions falter if the industry doesn't give them everything at the very start... Then Art is obviously not their passion.
Success is hard work. But hard work is easy if your passionate about what you do.
I write this as a general response, not specifically about any one person.
Although if you personally are looking to improve, as everyone should be
- Art, applications, interviews & networking. There's something for everything.
Interesting thing that was mentioned (and LOL for me), for art tests....get some talented people to HELP you out.
Return the favor and recommend them if you get hired.
I'm not advocating what this dude says re: art tests, just relating what he did for one of his buddies and how he got help getting his first job.