Home Collaboration & Unpaid Work

Metal Impact - MMO Game Development Invite

1
Hi!

I am a 3D modeler and currently wish to start a team to create a car combat MMO game. Will be similar to the Twisted Metal series but with many new features and many other functions! I will be making all the 3D models needed including building, roads, props, NPCs and weapons. However, I need some people to help me with the programing in Unity3D and texturing some of the models I create. I been creating 3D models for a long time and I am also quick making them as well. Although this is not a paid project and is more of a personal project, this is a great opportunity to earn experience in the field of video game development. However, since it is an MMO, future currency for the project can come with a demo of the game. Contract needs to be signed which states how much you want to earn when the game's demo comes along.

PROGRESS
To help you know how far the project is from finishing here is some details of interest.
NOTE: if it is stated 100%, then that means it is already done and something else is being worked on.

GDD = 100%
Car Models = 70%
Texture Cars = 20%
Roads = 100%
City Elements = 80%
Weapon Models = 90%
Weapon Texture = 70%
Unity3D Engine Coding = 0%

PROJECT WORK
These are things I finished for this personal project of mine:

-City Roads-
CRSK28.jpg
Description
This can be used as the base roads for the game in the Unity3D engine. Every model is textured with a map at the size of 1024x1024. It can be easily modified to create worn out, broken, rusted, or damaged roads.

-Cars-
DarkToothB1.jpg
Description
This model was created by me just so show how I can create 3D models based on simple pictures or concept art. Based on Dark Tooth from the Twisted Metal series.

TwisterB1.jpg
Description
This is another model based on the Twisted Metal series. This is my version of Twister, again, this is just to show my skills in creating 3D models for the game.

STTM1B1.jpg
Description
Same as Twister above, only this time I created Sweet Tooth who is also from the Twisted Metal series. This was created by me just to show my abilities in creating 3D models off concept art or images found.

CorvPB1.jpg
Description
My personal version of OutLaw from the Twisted Metal series. I created it just to show my ability for creating 3D models.

GT11.jpg
Description
A car model I created for the game as well. It's supposed to resemble a Toyota GT-One, would make a great combat car!

S12GT11.jpg
Description
This is another model I created for the game which is supposed to resemble a TVR Speed 12. Imagine racing down the road with your guns blazing in this!

DiabloSVB1.jpg
Description
The legendary Lamborghini Diablo SV... One of my personal favorite cars in the Lambo line-up. Made for the game and would be just epic to be able to drive this around armed to the teeth!

DriverB1.jpg
Description
A special car I modeled for the game, it is really a 1970 Dodge Challenger but created in a way to highly resemble the one used by the main character John Tanner in the game Driver: San Fransisco.

StratosB1.jpg
Description
Another model I created for the game that resemble the very well known rally car, Lancia Stratos. Small, agile and fast is what this little guy would be made of!

If you are interested, please contact me via my signature email or send me a PM via this website for more information!

A full set of weapons are being textured and finished at the moment, previews of those will also be shown soon!

Replies

  • DDuckworth
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    DDuckworth polycounter lvl 6
    This belongs in requests, future currency (also known as profit sharing) does not count as a freelance position. Sorry to be the thorn in your side, but after working this long to obtain work it's just tough to deal with constant threads like this in this forum. On a personal sidenote, making an MMO is literally the hardest possible genre to create from scratch, regardless of how much work you have done, keep it simple until you can pay people for their time.
  • Heartbrake
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    DDuckworth wrote: »
    This belongs in requests, future currency (also known as profit sharing) does not count as a freelance position. Sorry to be the thorn in your side, but after working this long to obtain work it's just tough to deal with constant threads like this in this forum. On a personal sidenote, making an MMO is literally the hardest possible genre to create from scratch, regardless of how much work you have done, keep it simple until you can pay people for their time.

    I think me and my company know what we are doing dear. And this is for freelance since we aren't paying anyone at the moment. Freelance is freelance, profit sharing is profit sharing. And if you look on the info above, you will see that the game is practically finished, it just needs coders/programers for Unity3D which my company doesn't have.
  • r_fletch_r
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    r_fletch_r polycounter lvl 9
    You misunderstand the definition of freelance. A freelance artist is someone who works on short term contracts outside of the company structure, An independent artist who sells their services to companies.
  • Heartbrake
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    r_fletch_r wrote: »
    You misunderstand the definition of freelance dear. A freelance artist is someone who works on short term contracts outside of the company structure, An independent artist who sells their services to companies.

    I think it is you who misunderstood the term... Freelancers can work for free as well in case you didn't know. The definition of a freelancer is whatever the freelancer wants it to be, that's why it is called freelancer.
  • Jon Jones
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    Jon Jones polycounter lvl 18
    If you're going into a forum for freelancers and you don't know what freelancing actually means, I don't think you're going to have much luck finding anyone to work with you. I was going to write up some basic advice that might have helped point you in the right direction for making this happen, but your replies so far have been condescending and negative toward the people trying to help.

    If anyone's daring or masochistic enough to try to work with you, I think your interactions with them will be great material for http://clientsfromhell.net/.
  • Heartbrake
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    Jon Jones wrote: »
    If you're going into a forum for freelancers and you don't know what freelancing actually means, I don't think you're going to have much luck finding anyone to work with you. I was going to write up some basic advice that might have helped point you in the right direction for making this happen, but your replies so far have been condescending and negative toward the people trying to help.

    If anyone's daring or masochistic enough to try to work with you, I think your interactions with them will be great material for http://clientsfromhell.net/.

    I don't know where I disrespected anyone for you to post such a disrespectful thing to me on my thread. Because as far as I know, I have freelancers working for me for free. This is the main reason I told him that he needs to check up on the meaning of a Freelancer instead of looking it up on Wiki. I guess I can say the same applies to you.

    Refrain from posting on my thread, it isn't helping anyone.
    Thanks.
  • BlueAce
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    heartbrake has a point, you all should stop being idiots, and stop filling her thread with crap.

    pm sent, i can code if you need it heart.
  • Polygoblin
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    Polygoblin polycounter
    The thread has been moved to "requests" because they are right. Be clear and don't talk down to people who try to help if your looking for volunteers.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    hah, arguing with Jon Jones about what freelancing is, that's priceless!
  • Rhinokey
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    Rhinokey polycounter lvl 18
    lol, you are correct. priceless. i like how she had a friend join up just to pretend to join the mod.
  • DDuckworth
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    DDuckworth polycounter lvl 6
    Thanks fellow polycounters for backing me up on this one, I was pretty sure I might get flamed because I hate telling people they posted in the wrong jobs section, but it's very important to me to have it in the right place as finding work these days is tough tough tough!

    @Heartbrake, the literal definition of freelancer doesn't matter here whatsoever because if you check the rules in the sticky of the forum it is clearly stated that this type of work does not belong in it.

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42309
    "3. Only post if you plan to pay! Things like "if we get a publisher...you'll get paid" need to stay in the Requests forum. If you can't pay up front, it doesn't belong here. Any posts violating this rule will be moved to Requests without warning."

    As for my statements about making an MMO, they still stand, I mentioned that it doesn't matter how much content you have made already, the programming side alone of MMO's is the most complicated and time consuming type of programming I know of. I was honestly just trying to help, perhaps suggesting you make your game a LAN only multiplayer or something on a less massive scale.
  • Heartbrake
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    DDuckworth wrote: »
    As for my statements about making an MMO, they still stand, I mentioned that it doesn't matter how much content you have made already, the programming side alone of MMO's is the most complicated and time consuming type of programming I know of. I was honestly just trying to help, perhaps suggesting you make your game a LAN only multiplayer or something on a less massive scale.

    I make what I see fit, keep your opinion to yourself. The reason I am here is to get those programers and finish my project. Just because I am new to this site and created this thread with an "MMO" project doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing for your information.

    AGAIN, refrain from posting on my thread. If you don't know what refrain means, it means to stop posting on here. I asked you nicely once, if you respect this community so much and the people in it, then respect me and what I ask of you.

    You don't even know me or the projects I have been in to come down on me with that.

    Rest of your post doesn't even matter to me.

    Back on topic please, and thanks for the bumps guys.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    What the hell? Freelance is not free work... I freelance for a living currently and would never work for free... That's charity. Not freelance.

    As for what is going on here... I'm well err speechless for now. I need sleep...
  • aivanov
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    aivanov polycounter lvl 5
    Holy shit, have the spam bots actually attained sentience now? They're even having arguments with each other!
  • Heartbrake
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    BlackAce wrote: »
    BANNED
    BANNED


    Edit - Irreverent.
  • r_fletch_r
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    r_fletch_r polycounter lvl 9
    Heartbrake: Freelancing is paid work, There is absolutely no point in arguing the definition because you are wrong. Arguing the point with people who Freelance for a living is just silly, and it makes you look like you don't know what your talking about.

    The terms for posting freelance jobs are here, I suggest you read them.
  • Heartbrake
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    r_fletch_r wrote: »
    Heartbrake: Freelancing is paid work, There is absolutely no point in arguing the definition because you are wrong. Arguing the point with people who Freelance for a living is just silly, and it makes you look like you don't know what your talking about.

    The terms for posting freelance jobs are here, I suggest you read them.

    You can... Drop that conversation already, right? You have your definition and I mine. I also freelance as a hobby and know very well what "freelancer" means and even more what they are, and no, not all of them work for money, now drop it.

    And for your information, I already have a publisher, i just didn't mention it above. I still think it doesn't belongs here, but I don't care. I just care it is up and people can read it., period.

    Thank you.
  • EarthQuake
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    An unpaid freelancer is a Volunteer.

    free·lance

    Adjective:Working for different companies at different times rather than being permanently employed by one company.
    Adverb:Earning one's living in such a way.
    Verb:Earn one's living as a freelance.

    vol·un·teer


    Noun:A person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task.
    Verb:Freely offer to do something.

    You have your definition, and your definition is absolutely incorrect, unless you also disagree with webster's dictionary.

    Respect is a two way street. Coming to a forum comprised of professional artists, MANY of which are real freelancers(not volunteers) and telling them that volunteer work is "freelancing" is misleading(to young artists who may not know the difference) and downright disrespectful to those who do know the difference.

    If you want any respect on this forum, you need to read the rules and check your attitude and ego at the door.
  • Polygoblin
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    Polygoblin polycounter
    Seriously, you might want to stop talking down to folks just trying to help or this thread will become popular for all the wrong reasons. You really don't want that.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    Heartbrake wrote: »
    You can... Drop that conversation already, right? You have your definition and I mine. I also freelance as a hobby and know very well what "freelancer" means and even more what they are, and no, not all of them work for money, now drop it.

    And for your information, I already have a publisher, i just didn't mention it above. I still think it doesn't belongs here, but I don't care. I just care it is up and people can read it., period.

    Thank you.

    You sir are insane! You have some real talented people here trying to "help" you and you respond with this crap.

    What have you done that makes you think you can just talk to people on this forum like shit?

    Publisher? Not a chance...
  • Ryan Smith
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    Ryan Smith polycounter lvl 11
    This project, and heartbreak's personal details seem totally legit. No really, someone should check them out, and follow the internet trail.
  • Jon Jones
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    Jon Jones polycounter lvl 18
    Heartbrake wrote: »
    And for your information, I already have a publisher, i just didn't mention it above. I still think it doesn't belongs here, but I don't care. I just care it is up and people can read it., period.

    a) Having a publisher would have been the single strongest selling point of your pitch to recruit people for the project. That would have helped to mention earlier.

    b) Regardless of whether you were right or wrong, the way you've acted in this thread to people with any contrary comment or opinion shows exactly how you would act toward them as a project manager. Having a cool head and maintaining decorum and professionalism are absolutely essential to show them you're a leader that's worth following.

    It's cool that you want to work in games and run your own project, and have actually gone through the effort to create and show your own art that you've developed for it already. Unfortunately, your overall attitude and the way you present yourself have likely ruined your chances to find anyone here that will work with you. As it is, you're really showing your age. I'm guessing high school.

    This is a textbook example of how not to recruit for a project. I hope you're able to learn from this experience eventually.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    I think everyone should take a second to read this... Might clear a lot of things up..

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1522814#post1522814
  • Polygoblin
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    Polygoblin polycounter
  • Jon Jones
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    Jon Jones polycounter lvl 18
    Jesse, holy god that's weird. AWESOME detective work.
  • Heartbrake
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    EarthQuake wrote: »
    An unpaid freelancer is a Volunteer.

    free·lance

    Adjective:Working for different companies at different times rather than being permanently employed by one company.
    Adverb:Earning one's living in such a way.
    Verb:Earn one's living as a freelance.

    vol·un·teer


    Noun:A person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task.
    Verb:Freely offer to do something.

    You have your definition, and your definition is absolutely incorrect, unless you also disagree with webster's dictionary.

    Respect is a two way street. Coming to a forum comprised of professional artists, MANY of which are real freelancers(not volunteers) and telling them that volunteer work is "freelancing" is misleading(to young artists who may not know the difference) and downright disrespectful to those who do know the difference.

    If you want any respect on this forum, you need to read the rules and check your attitude and ego at the door.

    Well, I am in other projects that do have freelancers and volunteers, so maybe I have thought both of them are the same thing. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just stating my things from experience in projects I been that everyone in the project are considered Freelancers even if they are volunteers. I guess you can understand that, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is just to get programers to finished this project.

    You tell one person an idea based on what you seen and had, and the rest of the world attack like ants. Glad this doesn't happen to me in the Unity3D forums. Regardless, with the definition stated above, it is clearer to me and I am sorry and I hope you may all drop that conversation already and stop flooding my thread with it.

    Thanks.
    Polygoblin wrote: »
    Seriously, you might want to stop talking down to folks just trying to help or this thread will become popular for all the wrong reasons. You really don't want that.

    Don't confuse talking down with what one goes through.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    I think everyone should take a second to read this... Might clear a lot of things up..

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1522814#post1522814

    Yes let's totally ignore this right Heartbrake or whatever your name is.
  • Heartbrake
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    Yes let's totally ignore this right Heartbrake or whatever your name is.

    You can just find all that searching my name... What's your point? I can just change my name and you have never heard from me at all, but why do I keep the same name? I can only wonder why on that one, huh. You think I care about what you find on the internet as if you knew who I was in real life?

    As a side note, thanks for giving me another thread to report.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    The point is you obviously aren't who or what you say you are. Makes people a little leary and cautious when joining projects. You have a history of crap following you around and some very suspect stuff.

    You should care what people think.
  • Heartbrake
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    The point is you obviously aren't who or what you say you are. Makes people a little leary and cautious when joining projects. You have a history of crap following you around and some very suspect stuff.

    You should care what people think.

    The point is obviously you are on the internet and don't believe who I am. I even took personal pictures of myself with gamer tags I've had and everything on all those sites. I took the pictures down long ago already. You should see the date on when them threads were created.

    If you don't know who the hell you talk to on the other end of the screen, be more professional and STFU. Again, I can easily come up with a new name and none of you people would even know who I am or was or whatever you want to beleive, but then that would be lying to myself. Now I'm not here disrespecting anyone, so just chill.
    Thanks.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    than why do you got multiple accounts on this fourm, and were trying to play your own wingman on page 1 of this thread?
  • Heartbrake
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    passerby wrote: »
    than why do you got multiple accounts on this fourm, and were trying to play your own wingman on page 1 of this thread?

    How you know that was me?
    They could of just read it somewhere, come back here and create an account with the name of BlueAce. Yes, I'm Heartbreak, but my name and email is still on my signature, I'm not hiding at all. So some random person comes on my thread and post one sentence and I'm them? I don't even know who that person is, but you are insinuating it's me. I even ignored them to start with, I don't know who they are. But whatever you want to beleive, I seriously do not care.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    Heartbrake wrote: »

    As a side note, thanks for giving me another thread to report.

    priceless!
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    Report my thread all you want. I am a moderator and a long time member. You are blueace we can look over your ip history and the info lines up. Not hard to figure it out.
  • Heartbrake
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    Report my thread all you want. I am a moderator and a long time member. You are blueace we can look over your ip history and the info lines up. Not hard to figure it out.

    If you are a moderator and doing such things on your own site, well I pity you. And I'm not the only one living at my place either, 5 people here have access to my computer and 5 laptops are connected to the same router, so yeah, talk whatever you like. Maybe you should get some pointing from the members and community of this website:
    http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/122303-Metal-Impact-MMO-Game-Development-Invite?p=834136&posted=1#post834136

    I reported your thread to your superiors, let's see what they think and if they approve of your actions. I hope it doesn't make you lose your position... But if it does, then congratulations.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    LOL that is all. This is way too much.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    oh absurd defense, what you roommates trolled you like that is believable.

    also trying to pull shit like that on jesse, he's been here for ever and all the regulars trust him, and would take his word over yours.

    oh and the proof he dug up helps too.
  • aivanov
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    aivanov polycounter lvl 5
    Heartbrake, save yourself the trouble and just leave, or do what everyone else does and work on some actual 3d art. The damage is done, everyone knows.
  • art911
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    If you don't know who the hell you talk to on the other end of the screen, be more professional and STFU.

    I love the comment about professionalism and in the same sentence telling you to STFU. Gold!
  • Heartbrake
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    passerby wrote: »
    oh absurd defense, what you roommates trolled you like that is believable.

    also trying to pull shit like that on jesse, he's been here for ever and all the regulars trust him, and would take his word over yours.

    oh and the proof he dug up helps too.

    Proof of what?... What has he proven? Just a bunch of issues found under my name where nothing is stated if I am really who I claim to be or not. That's what he found, that's your "proof"?

    The only people that knows I am who I claim to be are the people in my Skype contacts who are part of this project and have me on Webcam almost everyday to work on this project. But noticed that no one who has worked with me has come on my thread taking about; "This person is really a fake because I was part of her project and everything she said, gave me, shown me, and this person is, and on cam, she is really a man (or whatever you want to believe I am). This guy has found nothing but a search on my name.

    They only people here are people that think I am not who I say I am. So yeah, its the main reason I do not care what you all think.

    Back on topic, rest will be ignored.
    Thanks.
  • Nilium
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    Nilium polycounter lvl 18
    Heartbrake, as a moderator (oddly enough, I am) and Jesse's obvious superior (I'm totally not) and someone who provides good advice (I'm totally not), I will make a recommendation: apologize and either leave or just start making models. Plenty of people would be more than happy to forgive you for what Jesse found if you simply apologize and make a good faith effort to do good work.

    Right now, you're just digging yourself deeper, and as funny and sad as it is, you should realize by now that you are not acting professionally and as long as this keeps up, we have no interest in helping you do anything at all. If you'd like to make models and you try to get into that properly, awesome, I and everyone else will be glad to offer our criticism. If you'd like to continue this absurdity, then go on as you are.

    I don't recommend replying to this without first thoroughly considering what I've said with a cool head.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    This happened once before, the guy emptied his websites either by choice or legal threats.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    EDIT:

    Nilium post better sums up what i was saying.
  • skankerzero
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    I'm a mod and long standing member and I say get the fuck out.

    Go try and get free work elsewhere.
  • Heartbrake
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    Let me break it down to you as all right now, because I have to have something that is actually legit for you and him and the rest of the moderators not to have locked/closed my thread yet I'm guessing. Because what I am saying is simply true.

    1. You don't know who I am.
    2. No one that has worked with me has come on here against me.

    All the models you see up there in the 1st post are mine. You want to report stolen models, because you say I stole them, these are all my accounts:

    http://3docean.net/user/ClutchTrigger
    http://3docean.net/user/Heartbreak
    http://dynastyweapons.3dexport.com/

    Report those if you don't believe me... In fact, choose a model and tell me what you want it to say in the description.

    I'm not going to apologize to anyone, and you want to know why? Because I haven't done anything to anyone on here. I didn't disrespect anyway, I didn't tell anyone off, all I ever did was just tell one person MY point of view of a freelancer and the rest of you flipped. Then I come back on here and say sorry after someone was nice enough to place the whole definition out because I am defining it as in terms of what I have experienced.

    Then the long-term moderator comes on here with s simple search of my name that anyone can find. I can ask to have all those threads about me deleted, but I don't do that because I do not care what people think. I was a moderator at Air Rivals by the name is Vixinity, And you know how I got that position, I got it by supplying a valid ID with the company.

    But you all don't know this, why? Because none of you know me. I respect all of you, and I am sorry for the "STFU" part, but still, you all need to stop it as if this guy actually found something that says; "Yes Heartbreak, you are a man, or a n animal, or an alien, or whatever the hell you all want to make of me.

    I'm not emptying out my accounts, I'm not emptying out any website, I'm not changing my name to make up I'm someone else, so there, period.

    Now stop the bullshit and get back on the damn topic.
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    We haven't closed it yet because like other people mentioned to you about coming clean.

    Explain the dudes account with the pic from Getty Images that has a Deviant Art account with that concept by Donald Yatomi.

    You had nothing to do with that but yet your name is on the Deviant art account that is linked to the image... Here just in case you forgot.

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1522815&postcount=2
  • skankerzero
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    what about the art tests a couple guys did for you and never heard back?

    can you answer them on the other thread?
  • Heartbrake
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    We haven't closed it yet because like other people mentioned to you about coming clean.

    Explain the dudes account with the pic from Getty Images that has a Deviant Art account with that concept by Donald Yatomi.

    You had nothing to do with that but yet your name is on the Deviant art account that is linked to the image... Here just in case you forgot.

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1522815&postcount=2

    Have you seen the quality of the picture we created compared to his?
    You will find the truth there, I don't know where that guy downloaded our picture, or maybe someone showed it to them and sent it to him or whatever via a Skype chat or e-mail. But that is not my problem. I made the 3D MODEL OF THAT TRUCK. And on the 1st post of this thread, what do you see? There's a lower polygon version of it with just the sides (what grabs the mouth clamps) slightly different (made to look more like the Head-On version) to reduce the polygon count.
  • Heartbrake
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    Heartbrake wrote: »
    Have you seen the quality of the picture we created compared to his?
    You will find the truth there, I don't where that guy download our picture, or many someone showed it to them and sent to him or whatever. But that is not my problem. I made the 3D MODEL OF THAT TRUCK. And on the 1st post of this thread, what do you? There's a lower polygon version of it with just the sided (what grabs the mouth clamps) slightly different to reduce the polygon count.
    what about the art tests a couple guys did for you and never heard back?

    can you answer them on the other thread?

    That game is under development and still going through Programing using the Unity3D engine. And along with that, THIS project right here is a project that my sister started some time ago and she has been working on it secretly, that's the reason she has so many things finished. Every now and then she would ask me to make a car model, I didn't know why, the car models she wanted were low polygons, I mean, I can make these cars in 40 minutes or less!

    Then all of a sudden she comes to be with "METAL IMPACT" and a full GDD and a whole mess of crap talking about; "I made this, can you make it real?!" But do I have to place all this nonsense on the 1st post? I'm even saying that I'm not paying people until the demo stage. I can get sued if I start selling this game or whatever because people WILL have the right to their models and they can post it in their portfolios as well. I'm not hiding anything, I am asking for help legitimately. And she has a pulblisher, she just needs to get this programed into a demo.

    And that is the truth.

    Damn, sorry for the x2 post.
    =/
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    Heartbrake wrote: »
    Have you seen the quality of the picture we created compared to his?
    You will find the truth there, I don't where that guy download our picture, or many someone showed it to them and sent to him or whatever. But that is not my problem. I made the 3D MODEL OF THAT TRUCK. And on the 1st post of this thread, what do you? There's a lower polygon version of it with just the sided (what grabs the mouth clamps) slightly different to reduce the polygon count.

    So you are saying that he ripped off your concept?

    Interesting...
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