Obama signs the NDAA into law
polycounter lvl 13
I'm not sure if there's a thread about this but i have to get this out. I cannot believe what's going on here. I thought the police brutality on the OWS movement was shocking and up hauling enough. But then our government turns around and SIGNS THE NDAA (creates the indefinite detention, interrogation, and assassination of anyone SUSPECTED of terrorism, this includes US citizens) into LAW!!
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IeuE16LLDY"]Obama Signs NDAA, ACLU Disgusted - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IeuE16LLDY"]Obama Signs NDAA, ACLU Disgusted - YouTube[/ame]
Replies
The reason this is so shocking is because protestors (OWS) are considered low level terrorists.
You're assuming that the government never wrongfully suspects. These actions can be taken upon suspicion alone! A cop can see you protesting something on the street, pull you aside, detain you, interrogate you, and even kill you with suspicion that you are anti american.
AND......we are supposed to be a land of innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty upon suspicion.
lol Americans trying to be Middle Eastern.
Because there is no one in jail that is innocent and wrongfully accused? And even then they at least had a trail. Now as long as the government accuses you of being a suspected terrorist for any reason they choose you will be held indefinatly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Hzpr7bL1Iw4
You're seeing it all over the place, across all sorts of industries and sectors.
"If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about" is a huge logical fallacy. We have the right to not be harassed by the authorities. My guilt or innocence of a crime is irrelevant. The police don't get to stick their nose into my private life because they think I "might" be a terrorist. Do you think you would enjoy being subjected to a search or arrest for being accused mere because they think you are up to something? They don't need evidence, just mere suspicion.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." - The Fourth Amendment of the US constitution
We have the right to refuse unwarranted search and seizure. It doesn't matter if I'm a criminal or not. They had better have very strong probable cause or a fucking warrant signed by a judge before any authority can search or detain me. With the NDAA, this all goes out the window. They can so much as accuse you of wrong-doing and they can take you to jail, without trial or due process. Even if you're perfectly innocent, they can do this and don't think they won't. This clearly is a move to bust the OWS protests by labeling them as terrorists and arresting them without due process. This is the very face of tyranny.
It's really getting hard to support "captain cave in". But on the flip side he never said he was against it, he just said he didn't like the legal messes it created and asked that they be cleared up before he signed it. So yea its not like he's spineless, he's just either stupid, ruthless, or terribly misguided. It's not like things would have been any different under a republican...
All I have to say on the matter...
[ame="
Land of the free. Home of the brave. With liberty and justice for all.
Yes, you are right, you will get flak for this, because that's the stupidest attitude to have. So lets just take the war on drugs, you won't mind getting random cavity searches on the street, would you, its all for good of the people, War On Drugs! Never mind your civil rights. Just don't act like a druggie...or human.
And let's be honest. If the government REALLY wanted to detain somebody, they would do it, bill or not.
RACIST!!
But I got to thinking on it, and I realized I actually don't mind this bill.
There is no more dangerous thinking than this. You gradually have your freedoms taken away.
They can silence any dissenting voice, no questions asked.
Your rights are there to protect you in case the goverment does go bad. It happens, it's happened countless times through history, and rights are there to help you stop it.
Corruption exists, corporate fingers in politics exist. Imagine you going into indefinite custody because you've got a great new idea that would stop all wars and the gun manufacturing industry didn't like it.
Add corrupt politics.
Terrorist. Goodbye.
If that seems like a completely outlandish scenario to you, then it must be nice to live in a rose tinted world.
Oh I agree, and that's what I meant by "If the government REALLY wanted to detain somebody, they would do it, bill or not."
I'll be the first to distrust anything formed by a group of humans.
What my point is, and I guess I should have mentioned this before, is that until the majority of the population unites and does something about it, the government can and will do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, bill or not. This bill doesn't change a whole lot. For example, internment camps during WW2.
Now I remember why I don't post in these threads, mostly cause I'm not educated enough on the subject matter.
I know voting is supposed to be the best tool the people have to help shape the future of the country. But I cant help at feel that billboard is merely extending the "right vs. left" dialogue that big business and lobbyists want everyone to be having.
I wouldn`t consider a single candidate that is up for office, better for the country than Obama. Not because I bias to the left- but because the other options available are a complete muppet show. I feel this has to be done by design.
Vote with your dollar, not a politician.
Vote with your dollar? That's a completely ineffectual tactic. Who has the most dollars? The .01%, they have more than all the rest of us combined. That means they have the most votes. Voting with your dollar is a waste of time.
I may be mistaken but I believe Rand Paul was the only Tea Partier to side with the Democrats who wanted to block the indefinite detention
shit is going to hit the fan, i think this is preparation for a big big Unrest in the United states. 2012 is either going to bring financial collapse or war or people on the streets or all of the above.
im just gonna keep 3d modelling till then.
Lol fair enough. - but thats why the .01% are the true leaders of the country. If you want the shape the country- you have to appeal to them.
YAY CAPITALISM!
This law has single handedly created a clamp on our country making it so that the employed and unemployed are both scared to do anything about it.
I think if a war is going to break out...it's going to be a war against america from the countries WE'VE been terrorizing. We are down, another war would destroy us in everyway.
I hope i'm wrong.
So yeah.....anyone hiring in other countries
He was pretty much cornered into signing it. Don't blame the President, blame the Republican House and Senate, politics, and the political system.
The US is cracking, i think it's bankers that (like Goldman Sachs took over the E.U., 'cleptocrats') now run Washington, and they're scared of whats coming.
EDIT:
if he didn't veto it, he didn't do his job in Securing and safe guarding the constitution. They're ALL to blame. that excuse is a joke.
It's as much his fault that NDAA is law, as our fault that it's come this far.
Someone would probably call a hit on him for that. That would just paint a bulls-eye on his head. If someone managed to do it, we'd have Biden. *shudder*
Define a terrorist. Define who chooses whom is a terrorist.
Then, you will see your logic is flawed.
http://act.demandprogress.org/letter/ndaa_reversal/?akid=1110.1667079.IAWB5Y&rd=1&t=3
I fail to see what is so mind-blowingly absurd about that. Honestly. Did you read my other posts?
The majority of people I know who are reacting to this are doing so because they assume that they will be walking down the street someday only to be thrown into the back of a black SUV, never to be seen again. So I made a general comment which meant that this bill doesn't mean random citizens will be plucked off the streets and thrown into prison for no reason.
I don't necessarily agree with the bill, I was just saying I don't see it as a big of a deal as others are making it seem. This will be forgotten about in a few months time at the most, and people will find another aspect of the government to rage about. That's never going to change.
Also, if all you really have to say is an insinuation that I'm stupid, then you don't really have to reply at all.
First they came for the terrorists and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a terrorist.
Then they came for the protesters and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a protestor.
Then they came for the dissenters, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a dissenter.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
I agree than *in theory*, someone not doing anything bad shouldn't have to worry about being imprisoned. But recently, even mere protesters (citizen, and even, non-citizen using one of their most basic rights) are being seen as "low level terrorists". Things are sliding in an odd direction ... There are quite a few enlightening camera phone videos around youtube showing excessive force used for benign things already... like, cops slamming down tourists on the ground for dancing (!) in a public space. (instead of escorting people outside like they are supposed to do, at the very worse).
The fact alone that Obama is considering that soooo many points are inappropriate should be an indicator that something is wrong. The Young Turks got it right : if something is passed as a law, it's the law. The fact that the current president chooses to not use it to its maximum potential (that is to say, imprisoning people indefinitely based on suspicion alone, Minority Report style) does not prevent the next administration to use the law in its most powerful, police state form ...
Odd times ...
I will be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about any of this, and I really don't like getting into political discussions for that reason. It was just a knee jerk reaction, which was then misconstrued.
So on that note, I'm just gonna back out of here and let the adults keep talking, haha.
HUGS FOR EVERYONE!
Happened to a guy in Germany. He was a random guy for everyone else, except for the US special agents who brought him to Gitmo after they plucked him off the street in former Yugoslavia. Turned out he was innocent, the US authorities admitted as much. And it doesn't help if you feel you're just a random person. Your feelings are totally irrelevant. What matters is what your government thinks you are.
It's funny that people fight so hard against the government deciding who gets what sort of healthcare. Yet it seems pretty much ok if the government decides who's a terrorist and who's not without any transparency in the decision process or chance of appeal (try appealing your assassination).
But I guess if you agree with this bill, you won't mind being arrested accidentally, however small the chance is. After all, you're helping to make America safer (remember that if you're unlucky enough to be wrongly accused)! But you're probably right.
The chance you're a victim of this is very small, yet you're basically giving up rights to a fair process should you every be wrongfully (or even rightfully) be arrested.
Sorry, no hugs! Purity ring!