While architecture has the ability to pay more than your average game dev job, ask around and I'm sure almost everyone here would rather take a lower paying game job than to have to wear slacks and tie to work every day.
nah wearing ties and slacks ain't so bad. But being the guy designing boring look-alike family homes must really suck
I imagine seeing your game on the store shelf is still more satisfying than seeing how the people living in your house fill up the garage and yard with junk...
Due to the majority of 'look-alike' houses being built in record time by mass-constructing housing associations and land development companies, they usually just employ low end Architects to cobble together some blueprints that can be re-used over and over. There are one or two slightly more exciting projects we get to work on...
I imagine seeing your game on the store shelf is still more satisfying than seeing how the people living in your house fill up the garage and yard with junk...
Maybe true, but at least we still have our jobs when the house is built and signed off.
And to be honest, standing at the foot of a building after it's been built knowing the lines and dimensions you put down on a few sheets of A0 helped create what stands in front of you, can be somewhat rewarding.
Anyway, this isn't gaming vs architecture, this is 'should I go to drop off my portfolio by hand'... let's stop this now.
Not to bash other fields but there is a reason people are willing to work in the game industry with less pay. Architecture can be fun at times but not as aesthetically challenging as game art can be. I've got friends who pursued career paths that paid more but weren't as aesthetically challenging as game art. Some of them are a bit frustrated over the fact that they've hardly developed over the period of 5-6 years, others are happy they're making a lot of money. I don't care for making lots of cash, it's not in my personality and I'm sure a lot of people on the board agree with me.
i don't know where this idea of me saying 'more pay > enjoyable job' came from... I agree, any job that you hate is useless even if you bring home massive salaries. I was just saying there is still a lot of money to be made after Justin suggested he had 'dodged a bullet'.
You can have both you know, I'm sure there are plenty of game industry people earning massive salaries, as are there Architects... but there are plenty of architects who love their job too ya know.
And come on now, not every day making games is fun... I'm sure the guys making 'Barbies big adventure' or whatever don't shit themselves with excitement at the thought of making DS-ready hair planes for Barbie's eighteen customisable hairdo's.
At the same time, Architects don't always make pretty houses or concert halls or whatever, plenty of time is also spent drawing boxy factories or 'picket-fence' houses. But that's the same with any job, some days are fun, some days not-so much.
Now, you could argue that if you work somewhere like Blizzard or Naughty-Dog, then you make fun stuff every day... but the same could be said if an Architect worked somewhere like Foster & Partners or Nendo.
i don't know where this idea of me saying 'more pay > enjoyable job' came from...
Never said you did, I said that it's not as aesthetically challenging. Some like it better when they can just model whatever following a blueprint(not to say that all architecture is like this). It's each for his/her own, people like different things. If you like architecture then good for you. Like you said it's possible to have both.
The point is that most people in the game industry aren't here to make money so it's not something to attract us with. If you wouldn't have developed in the field of your choice then you've certainly dodged a bullet. It's very subjective.
Oh I agree, Arch-Vis can be a mind-numbing job... as you say, very little room for creative expression a lot of the time. Unless you're the Architect on the project too, you usually don't have a lot of say on whether you can make changes. This is definitely an area where any art job in the games industry wins by a mile in the fun stakes.
I didn't mean to make the 'money' argument. It was just that Justin had said 'I was told nobody wants to pay for visualisation anymore, glad I dodged that bullet'... and I merely stated that plenty of people still do pay plenty of money for visualisation, and will continue to do so. Sure, in the residential field it's often much cheaper and easier for the client to just grab 'EZ House Designer Pro' or something from Amazon if they just want pretty (or not) 3D, but in the commercial field, it's a valuable tool to test outcomes before a huge amount of money is spent on construction.
Anyway, in trying to justify my comment, I've also derailed the thread to mammoth degrees and dug myself a rather large hole... so back on topic.
i don't know where this idea of me saying 'more pay > enjoyable job' came from... I agree, any job that you hate is useless even if you bring home massive salaries. I was just saying there is still a lot of money to be made after Justin suggested he had 'dodged a bullet'.
I did dodge a bullet, in 2008 the housing market crashed and that place that wanted to hire me shut down - so even less people where paying for 3d vis.
Best advice is to contact via email and send a follow up email in 2 weeks. If you aren't too much of a howling jackass chances are there is a polycounter working at the studio you're applying at who could help you out.
Wow! You people are damn amazing, bravo to you. Thanks for all the thorough and thoughtful replies. There's an incredible abundance of useful info to take mental notes of as I continue on this challenging journey. I'm sure this will be useful to others as well, so thanks for that!
Dont know about everyone else. However, heated debates like the ones present in this thread are great to read as theres a strong reflection from both sides of the camp. Now, I'm at the peak of my understanding concerning the original dilemma I was stuck in tango with. Thank you. After reading everything, it's now just plain common sense not to drive down there. Thanks for nudging me on the correct path - You've saved me tons of embarrassment (and gas/hotel money)!
Wow! You people are damn amazing, bravo to you. Thanks for all the thorough and thoughtful replies. There's an incredible abundance of useful info to take mental notes of as I continue on this challenging journey. I'm sure this will be useful to others as well, so thanks for that!
Dont know about everyone else. However, heated debates like the ones present in this thread are great to read as theres a strong reflection from both sides of the camp. Now, I'm at the peak of my understanding concerning the original dilemma I was stuck in tango with. Thank you. After reading everything, it's now just plain common sense not to drive down there. Thanks for nudging me on the correct path - You've saved me tons of embarrassment (and gas/hotel money)!
If you want ACTUAL rewarding face time with employers, then go to GDC.
Just want to add, what with all this talk of architecture and arch Viz, that I work at an architecture firm, and it wouldn't be appreciated if someone dropped by unannounced to hand in a resume. We're typically VERY busy. It would really be a wasted trip, because there is no way we'd have time to talk with you. I mailed them my resume, a CD, and some printed samples and got an interview that way.
Also, our intern wears sweatervests. I typically wear slacks and button-up dress shirts, but often wear Carharts or something similar due to field work.
Everywhere is different, to some extent, I'm sure. Our firm is fairly laid back and we will often all have a beer around 3:00 at work on Fridays (which are also, typically "casual Fridays").
I'm just here to blow a little burst in the bubble sorrounding Arch Viz.
I'm currently working as an intern at an Arch Viz/Visualization firm and I've been there for the last 2 years.
First things first, you are not an architect.. You are a 3d craftsman just like any game artist. Neither me or my coworkers are forced to comform to some super tight dresscode. I can wear a colorfull hoodie to work if I want.
Second, some say that Arch Viz is mind numbing work. I'd say you're wrong. The creative freedom ofcourse depends on the project, but usually my firm stands for 80% of the creative development. This is everywhere from setting the look, making and producing the storyboard and so on.
About the pay, I do not dare to say since I've only lived on an interns salary so far, but for around 6-7 years experience, one can expect around 30.000 danish kroner a month before taxes, which is considered standard/above standard(do remember that the Danish tax is quite high).
----
As for the question in the beginning of this thread, if you were applying for a VFX/Arch Viz studio, I wouldn't say it could hurt. I know a few friends that got their job in their respective studios by comming around and dropping of their portfolio even at a time where the studios weren't even recruiting.
I don't see why it should hurt. If you can't get to talk to one of the art directors or such, you can always drop it at the reception and hopefully they will know what to do.
It seems like the general opinion in this thread is quite xenophobic. NEW ONES IN MY STUDIO? HISS HISS! :-)
As for the main question, in most cases it's probably a bad idea, even at a smaller, more indie studio. It's just not a great first impression, and some people can be really ticked by it. You're better off reaching out to (emailing) people at those companies and talkin to them directly, or meeting recruiters at conventions/etc.
It seems like the general opinion in this thread is quite xenophobic. NEW ONES IN MY STUDIO? HISS HISS! :-)
Well it isn't but you guys enjoy this "it's because the game industry is full of insecure nerds" kind of attitude.
I appreciate that some people reached a crossroads and decided the game industry wasn't for them but I see them popping up in alot of threads to give passive aggressive jabs "glad I decided not to get into this biz" kind of talk. I see how the arch viz guys got on the defensive after I gave them a taste of their own medicine a few posts back; So really, just chill out.
Dont do it. I've seen it happen at multiple studios, and everyone always talks about how weird and creepy it is after the random has left. I can only imagine how weird it would seem if you drove 2 states, uninvited. Your best bet is to network, network, network. Get on linkedin, surely within a connection or two you can find a way to get a message in.
Tons of great points in here as to why you shouldn't apply in person. And I'm on that side of the argument, you shouldn't.
You could. You could probably drive to every studio there is and give your CV to the receptionist, but you shouldn't. In fact, don't. It's not elitism, its professional standard amongst this particular industry. We're all online, companies build their application systems for the online market, and in turn you should be going the routes the companies have laid out for you.
It seems like the general opinion in this thread is quite xenophobic. NEW ONES IN MY STUDIO? HISS HISS! :-)
Maybe it is. Maybe everyone in the games industry is a giant asshole jerkoff dickface punting babies through plate-glass windows.
This being true or not has no bearing on whether or not driving hundreds of miles across multiple states to hand-deliver a resume is a best-practice or not. The folks in the industry are saying it's a bad idea, has reflected poorly upon previous folks, etc. If you want to enter the industry, do not do things that reflect poorly on you.
Whether you want to enter an industry composed of baby-punter jerkoffs is a different topic. This is asking about the best way to join the baby punters on the assumption you really want to punt babies.
As someone heavily involved in the hiring process, here are a few answers based on some points brought up in this thread:
- Do not show up in person. It isn’t needed if you have a strong portfolio and doesn’t make you stand out in a good way. Portfolio is the key to getting a studio to notice you.
I’m working on content for a thread that is focused on making art that will hopefully help people break out from the pack. I hope to have it in PnP this coming weekend.
- Follow-up emails are great and should be done. One trick I always used was holding an art piece or two out of my portfolio (this can also be a work in progress) and include it in my follow-up. Additional samples is a great lead-in/excuse for the follow-up
- Cold contacts through Facebook, LinkedIn, etc… are very awkward but not the worst thing. Again, the better your portfolio the better this tactic will work. However, be prepared to be redirected to the proper application process. If you are redirected, please be respectful and do not continue to contact the person directly.
- Please don’t be discouraged if you don’t hear back from a studio. Continue to work on your portfolio and apply again in 6 months (with new samples). I would love to reply to every application that makes it to my desk but there is simply not enough time to do so. I do however, keep files on portfolio submissions that I see potential in and have contacted people months after there original application.
- Keep your portfolio up to date (if you are actively seeking employment) and get your work out into the public eye. Post art on forums and participate in community contests/projects. Honestly, I prefer to recruit than set idol hoping that a portfolio, that suits my needs, magically falls into my lap. This is when I go back through previous applicants and take another look at portfolios in addition to scouring forums and contest.
Well it isn't but you guys enjoy this "it's because the game industry is full of insecure nerds" kind of attitude.
I appreciate that some people reached a crossroads and decided the game industry wasn't for them but I see them popping up in alot of threads to give passive aggressive jabs "glad I decided not to get into this biz" kind of talk. I see how the arch viz guys got on the defensive after I gave them a taste of their own medicine a few posts back; So really, just chill out.
I have nothing against the game industry, I still plan to get in there someday. Arch Viz is just the only kind of 3d work one can hope to get in Denmark. I just wanted to point out it's not as mind numbing as people think. It doesn't differs much from working out from a piece of concept art. So it wasn't ment as try on aggresive jabbing.
You likely wouldn't even make it to our studio reception if you didn't have an appointment. Chances of getting to see an art director = lol.
Chances are in the big studios, you probably wouldn't have any chance no. My experience is based around the studios in Denmark, where the largest is IO Interactive. What you're saying there would clearly fit IO as far as I know, but I don't think you would be turned down at places like Playdead Entertainment(LIMBO) or Zero Point Software(Interstellar Marines).
Maybe it is. Maybe everyone in the games industry is a giant asshole jerkoff dickface punting babies through plate-glass windows.
Wasn't my plan to cause super offense to any of you. I just have a hard time believing there is such a big difference. I don't know anyone in the Arch Viz industry in Denmark that would look down upon any comming by to drop an CV or anything. This might be a byproduct of having to deal with customers(atleast at the smaller to mid range companies like the one I work at). I suppose it's just a big difference in danish contra US work and studio mentality... Dunno.
I've worked at a VERY small studio, literally a dozen or so guys for the entire company, and the few times where the secretary(who was actually shared between a few companies in the building) sent in some random guy, it was just completely weird and awkward. So to say you might get to see someone in a smaller studio, well yeah maybe, but that doesn't mean its any level better of an idea to do so.
Its just like, what do you do with this guy? Shake his hand and tell him to leave? Give him a tour?
Compounding the issue for us was the fact that we were in Cedar Falls Iowa, so we're getting nutjob locals come in with really no relevant skills. Again just an uncomfortable situation. In a larger job market where you have people come in with decent portfolios, I'm sure that would be less of an issue.
We had a few local high school kids come in and ask about internships, that was more endearing and less creepy.
Wasn't my plan to cause super offense to any of you.
I'm not offended and I don't think anyone else is seriously offended either, these are just words on the internet.
But you kind of missed my point, which is that regardless as to the reasoning behind it being a bad idea to drive across multiple states to hand in an application in person, it is still a bad idea.
The OP asked whether this was a good idea. The responses have been "no, it is not a good idea," and then a bunch of "it's a bad idea because GAME DEVELOPERS ARE JERKS" and "In my non-games field in a different country, the culture is different." These last two are interesting points of discussion perhaps but irrelevant to the question asked or the answers provided, ultimately.
And it seems a number of folks have had a hard time realizing that.
a better idea than walking in would be: send in a video cassette with your reel, or maybe fax in pictures of your work.
DEAR SIRS STOP
WITHIN A FORTNIGHT BY PIGEON YOU WILL RECEIVE A MIMEOGRAPH STOP
THE MIMEOGRAPH IS OF MY WORK IN VIDEO STOP
DEAR SIRS STOP
RAN OUT OF MONEY FOR TELEGRAPH STOP
THE MIMEOGRAPH IS OF MY WORK IN VIDEOGAMES STOP
INTERESTED IN PROVIDING LABOR IN EXCHANGE FOR SCRIP STOP
DEAR SIRS STOP
OUT OF MONEY AGAIN STOP
PROVIDING LABOR FOR SCRIP OR FREE SODAS STOP
Replies
nah wearing ties and slacks ain't so bad. But being the guy designing boring look-alike family homes must really suck
I imagine seeing your game on the store shelf is still more satisfying than seeing how the people living in your house fill up the garage and yard with junk...
Due to the majority of 'look-alike' houses being built in record time by mass-constructing housing associations and land development companies, they usually just employ low end Architects to cobble together some blueprints that can be re-used over and over. There are one or two slightly more exciting projects we get to work on...
Maybe true, but at least we still have our jobs when the house is built and signed off.
And to be honest, standing at the foot of a building after it's been built knowing the lines and dimensions you put down on a few sheets of A0 helped create what stands in front of you, can be somewhat rewarding.
Anyway, this isn't gaming vs architecture, this is 'should I go to drop off my portfolio by hand'... let's stop this now.
You can have both you know, I'm sure there are plenty of game industry people earning massive salaries, as are there Architects... but there are plenty of architects who love their job too ya know.
And come on now, not every day making games is fun... I'm sure the guys making 'Barbies big adventure' or whatever don't shit themselves with excitement at the thought of making DS-ready hair planes for Barbie's eighteen customisable hairdo's.
At the same time, Architects don't always make pretty houses or concert halls or whatever, plenty of time is also spent drawing boxy factories or 'picket-fence' houses. But that's the same with any job, some days are fun, some days not-so much.
Now, you could argue that if you work somewhere like Blizzard or Naughty-Dog, then you make fun stuff every day... but the same could be said if an Architect worked somewhere like Foster & Partners or Nendo.
Seriously... let's drop it.
Never said you did, I said that it's not as aesthetically challenging. Some like it better when they can just model whatever following a blueprint(not to say that all architecture is like this). It's each for his/her own, people like different things. If you like architecture then good for you. Like you said it's possible to have both.
The point is that most people in the game industry aren't here to make money so it's not something to attract us with. If you wouldn't have developed in the field of your choice then you've certainly dodged a bullet. It's very subjective.
I didn't mean to make the 'money' argument. It was just that Justin had said 'I was told nobody wants to pay for visualisation anymore, glad I dodged that bullet'... and I merely stated that plenty of people still do pay plenty of money for visualisation, and will continue to do so. Sure, in the residential field it's often much cheaper and easier for the client to just grab 'EZ House Designer Pro' or something from Amazon if they just want pretty (or not) 3D, but in the commercial field, it's a valuable tool to test outcomes before a huge amount of money is spent on construction.
Anyway, in trying to justify my comment, I've also derailed the thread to mammoth degrees and dug myself a rather large hole... so back on topic.
I did dodge a bullet, in 2008 the housing market crashed and that place that wanted to hire me shut down - so even less people where paying for 3d vis.
Go big or go home.
Dont know about everyone else. However, heated debates like the ones present in this thread are great to read as theres a strong reflection from both sides of the camp. Now, I'm at the peak of my understanding concerning the original dilemma I was stuck in tango with. Thank you. After reading everything, it's now just plain common sense not to drive down there. Thanks for nudging me on the correct path - You've saved me tons of embarrassment (and gas/hotel money)!
If you want ACTUAL rewarding face time with employers, then go to GDC.
This times a million. Who cares if you make a ton of money when you dont love what you do 40 hours of your week.
As for the coming into a studio thing unannounced, Im going to tell HR to start carrying a gun at the front desk now.
Also, our intern wears sweatervests. I typically wear slacks and button-up dress shirts, but often wear Carharts or something similar due to field work.
Everywhere is different, to some extent, I'm sure. Our firm is fairly laid back and we will often all have a beer around 3:00 at work on Fridays (which are also, typically "casual Fridays").
I think ours already does. That or she's just happy to see me ;D
I'm currently working as an intern at an Arch Viz/Visualization firm and I've been there for the last 2 years.
First things first, you are not an architect.. You are a 3d craftsman just like any game artist. Neither me or my coworkers are forced to comform to some super tight dresscode. I can wear a colorfull hoodie to work if I want.
Second, some say that Arch Viz is mind numbing work. I'd say you're wrong. The creative freedom ofcourse depends on the project, but usually my firm stands for 80% of the creative development. This is everywhere from setting the look, making and producing the storyboard and so on.
About the pay, I do not dare to say since I've only lived on an interns salary so far, but for around 6-7 years experience, one can expect around 30.000 danish kroner a month before taxes, which is considered standard/above standard(do remember that the Danish tax is quite high).
----
As for the question in the beginning of this thread, if you were applying for a VFX/Arch Viz studio, I wouldn't say it could hurt. I know a few friends that got their job in their respective studios by comming around and dropping of their portfolio even at a time where the studios weren't even recruiting.
I don't see why it should hurt. If you can't get to talk to one of the art directors or such, you can always drop it at the reception and hopefully they will know what to do.
It seems like the general opinion in this thread is quite xenophobic. NEW ONES IN MY STUDIO? HISS HISS! :-)
Good luck man.
Well it isn't but you guys enjoy this "it's because the game industry is full of insecure nerds" kind of attitude.
I appreciate that some people reached a crossroads and decided the game industry wasn't for them but I see them popping up in alot of threads to give passive aggressive jabs "glad I decided not to get into this biz" kind of talk. I see how the arch viz guys got on the defensive after I gave them a taste of their own medicine a few posts back; So really, just chill out.
You could. You could probably drive to every studio there is and give your CV to the receptionist, but you shouldn't. In fact, don't. It's not elitism, its professional standard amongst this particular industry. We're all online, companies build their application systems for the online market, and in turn you should be going the routes the companies have laid out for you.
You likely wouldn't even make it to our studio reception if you didn't have an appointment. Chances of getting to see an art director = lol.
Maybe it is. Maybe everyone in the games industry is a giant asshole jerkoff dickface punting babies through plate-glass windows.
This being true or not has no bearing on whether or not driving hundreds of miles across multiple states to hand-deliver a resume is a best-practice or not. The folks in the industry are saying it's a bad idea, has reflected poorly upon previous folks, etc. If you want to enter the industry, do not do things that reflect poorly on you.
Whether you want to enter an industry composed of baby-punter jerkoffs is a different topic. This is asking about the best way to join the baby punters on the assumption you really want to punt babies.
Thanks for the new sig!
- Do not show up in person. It isn’t needed if you have a strong portfolio and doesn’t make you stand out in a good way. Portfolio is the key to getting a studio to notice you.
I’m working on content for a thread that is focused on making art that will hopefully help people break out from the pack. I hope to have it in PnP this coming weekend.
- Follow-up emails are great and should be done. One trick I always used was holding an art piece or two out of my portfolio (this can also be a work in progress) and include it in my follow-up. Additional samples is a great lead-in/excuse for the follow-up
- Cold contacts through Facebook, LinkedIn, etc… are very awkward but not the worst thing. Again, the better your portfolio the better this tactic will work. However, be prepared to be redirected to the proper application process. If you are redirected, please be respectful and do not continue to contact the person directly.
- Please don’t be discouraged if you don’t hear back from a studio. Continue to work on your portfolio and apply again in 6 months (with new samples). I would love to reply to every application that makes it to my desk but there is simply not enough time to do so. I do however, keep files on portfolio submissions that I see potential in and have contacted people months after there original application.
- Keep your portfolio up to date (if you are actively seeking employment) and get your work out into the public eye. Post art on forums and participate in community contests/projects. Honestly, I prefer to recruit than set idol hoping that a portfolio, that suits my needs, magically falls into my lap. This is when I go back through previous applicants and take another look at portfolios in addition to scouring forums and contest.
Hope this helps
- BoBo
I have nothing against the game industry, I still plan to get in there someday. Arch Viz is just the only kind of 3d work one can hope to get in Denmark. I just wanted to point out it's not as mind numbing as people think. It doesn't differs much from working out from a piece of concept art. So it wasn't ment as try on aggresive jabbing.
Chances are in the big studios, you probably wouldn't have any chance no. My experience is based around the studios in Denmark, where the largest is IO Interactive. What you're saying there would clearly fit IO as far as I know, but I don't think you would be turned down at places like Playdead Entertainment(LIMBO) or Zero Point Software(Interstellar Marines).
Wasn't my plan to cause super offense to any of you. I just have a hard time believing there is such a big difference. I don't know anyone in the Arch Viz industry in Denmark that would look down upon any comming by to drop an CV or anything. This might be a byproduct of having to deal with customers(atleast at the smaller to mid range companies like the one I work at). I suppose it's just a big difference in danish contra US work and studio mentality... Dunno.
Its just like, what do you do with this guy? Shake his hand and tell him to leave? Give him a tour?
Compounding the issue for us was the fact that we were in Cedar Falls Iowa, so we're getting nutjob locals come in with really no relevant skills. Again just an uncomfortable situation. In a larger job market where you have people come in with decent portfolios, I'm sure that would be less of an issue.
We had a few local high school kids come in and ask about internships, that was more endearing and less creepy.
What about bringing in a 6 foot hero with usb drives hidden in it? That way when they bite into one they can see my portfolio.
I'm not offended and I don't think anyone else is seriously offended either, these are just words on the internet.
But you kind of missed my point, which is that regardless as to the reasoning behind it being a bad idea to drive across multiple states to hand in an application in person, it is still a bad idea.
The OP asked whether this was a good idea. The responses have been "no, it is not a good idea," and then a bunch of "it's a bad idea because GAME DEVELOPERS ARE JERKS" and "In my non-games field in a different country, the culture is different." These last two are interesting points of discussion perhaps but irrelevant to the question asked or the answers provided, ultimately.
And it seems a number of folks have had a hard time realizing that.
DEAR SIRS STOP
WITHIN A FORTNIGHT BY PIGEON YOU WILL RECEIVE A MIMEOGRAPH STOP
THE MIMEOGRAPH IS OF MY WORK IN VIDEO STOP
DEAR SIRS STOP
RAN OUT OF MONEY FOR TELEGRAPH STOP
THE MIMEOGRAPH IS OF MY WORK IN VIDEOGAMES STOP
INTERESTED IN PROVIDING LABOR IN EXCHANGE FOR SCRIP STOP
DEAR SIRS STOP
OUT OF MONEY AGAIN STOP
PROVIDING LABOR FOR SCRIP OR FREE SODAS STOP