I don't see Unionizing being effective for such an easily outsourced job - the majority of studios will go wherever it's the cheapest for them, they just see Union workers as more expensive.
Contractors fought for benefits from employers, it became law that a contractor who works at a studio for more than 9 months is entitled to benefits. Good right? Nope, now contractors get a 3 month unpaid vacation to save on paying said benefits.
yea exactly, same of anywhere that gets it so they have to pay overtime they will just close up shop and move to somewhere where they can keep exploiting people.
Perhaps, but if the other studios recieve orders from the same people in France, the situation could be similar at those places as all.
Some polycounters have said that the Montreal studio has the same crap, polycounters who work there. Unreasonable deadlines from the France HQ, deadlines that end up being fake milestones...
Yeah, but it's the producers' and studio manager's role to handle that and soften the blow on the team, since the people in charge at the HQ don't have such a clear idea of what's going on in each studio. And they'll always be pushy, since there's a lot of money in stake there. Not that I agree with that, but it makes sense...
Yeah, but it's the producers' and studio manager's role to handle that and soften the blow on the team, since the people in charge at the HQ don't have such a clear idea of what's going on in each studio. And they'll always be pushy, since there's a lot of money in stake there. Not that I agree with that, but it makes sense...
Totally agreed, but there are too many inexperienced managers and leads..
I don't see Unionizing being effective for such an easily outsourced job - the majority of studios will go wherever it's the cheapest for them, they just see Union workers as more expensive.
Contractors fought for benefits from employers, it became law that a contractor who works at a studio for more than 9 months is entitled to benefits. Good right? Nope, now contractors get a 3 month unpaid vacation to save on paying said benefits.
Who says game development is easily outsourced? It's incredibly fraught with it's own difficulties, and even then, you need several in house 3d artists to manage them, ensure compatibility and set pipelines, and if this imaginary union were as wide reaching as say, SAG, those in house 3d guys would be part of the union, ensuring they would have zero 3d artists unless they agree not to outsource more than X jobs. And if all you have is management people and an outsourcing studio in the 3rd world, hahahah, yeah good luck with that.
I have yet to see an outsourcing solution that was easy and cheap. It is either cheap with shitty quality and no attention paid to tech specs, or the quality and attention to detail is there, and they charge as much as an in house team would cost. This all assumes you can somehow still have a great game with such disconnected and un-invested artists in the first place. Sure you could make Sims, but a game with actual art style? no way.
Who says game development is easily outsourced? It's incredibly fraught with it's own difficulties, and even then, you need several in house 3d artists to manage them, ensure compatibility and set pipelines, and if this imaginary union were as wide reaching as say, SAG, those in house 3d guys would be part of the union, ensuring they would have zero 3d artists unless they agree not to outsource more than X jobs. And if all you have is management people and an outsourcing studio in the 3rd world, hahahah, yeah good luck with that.
I have yet to see an outsourcing solution that was easy and cheap. It is either cheap with shitty quality and no attention paid to tech specs, or the quality and attention to detail is there, and they charge as much as an in house team would cost. This all assumes you can somehow still have a great game with such disconnected and un-invested artists in the first place. Sure you could make Sims, but a game with actual art style? no way.
Yeah, but those wizard MBAs who work at the publishers and sign off on big freelance deals don't know this.
I am so glad to at least see a topic on this subject and I wanted to say that RyanB I like the way you think, It appears to me anyway that you seem to have thought this through thoroughly.
I don't think they would mind the expensive part It's the lack of control I think they would be the most turned off about. I see It like this if their was such a union in place to support/protect and keep us all healthy/working/wealthy (for the most part) but studio's couldn't control the time frames of our schedules, so if their actual work hours were from 8:6 as soon as 6 hit the rule would be that It would be up to their artist as to weather or not they continued working but this would start OT no exceptions. The choice is their for the individual so they can live a little bit of this life they have instead of feeling obligated to work instead of having some BS fear of being let go because he/she wants to get out of work on time.
To end I really want this because of the control we would have.
If It was started by us we set the rules, regulations and all that jazz they loose control and that's exactly what should happen because without us to create their visions their wouldn't be shit (or less appealing work).
All these OT no payment/late payment/under payment situations would stop, the abuse would stop, the rightful compensation would start, you can live your life and see your family, It's about time.
continuous layoffs a lot of people are out of work and looking for alternative jobs outside of the industry and that's shitty right their.
I got screwed up a union once, but I wasn't in the union so I understand the need to protect workers. I personally think that the abuses by the companies are much worse than the small inconviences like in the following story.
I was working at a warehouse for the summer and a really lazy worker (he had been fired and rehired 3 times, his cousin owned the business) was annoyed because I was working too hard and making him look bad. Seriously, I would do what he did all day in an hour or two. His boss got on him about working so slow. Anyways I was working overtime an hour or two everyday because I would ride home with my Step-Dad who wouldn't get back with the company truck until 6 or 7.
After a few weeks I was told by my boss I would have to stop working overtime, because "someone" (lazy dude.) had complained to the union that a union worker needs to be asked to work those hours over a temp like me. For a few weeks I didn't work overtime and just sat around for a few hours and did nothing. Every other worker thought it was bullshit and they were in the union as well.
After all that my boss informed me that no-one in the union wanted to work the overtime hours and I was allowed to work again.
So yeah a situation where a scumbag abused the system. There will always be people abusing the system though and I guess the union did have the best interests of it's members at heart. This was the teamsters btw, another month of working and I would have been in the union and receiving benefits. I just didn't want to spend my life working in a warehouse.
I got screwed up a union once, but I wasn't in the union so I understand the need to protect workers. I personally think that the abuses by the companies are much worse than the small inconviences like in the following story.
I was working at a warehouse for the summer and a really lazy worker (he had been fired and rehired 3 times, his cousin owned the business) was annoyed because I was working too hard and making him look bad. Seriously, I would do what he did all day in an hour or two. His boss got on him about working so slow. Anyways I was working overtime an hour or two everyday because I would ride home with my Step-Dad who wouldn't get back with the company truck until 6 or 7.
After a few weeks I was told by my boss I would have to stop working overtime, because "someone" (lazy dude.) had complained to the union that a union worker needs to be asked to work those hours over a temp like me. For a few weeks I didn't work overtime and just sat around for a few hours and did nothing. Every other worker thought it was bullshit and they were in the union as well.
After all that my boss informed me that no-one in the union wanted to work the overtime hours and I was allowed to work again.
So yeah a situation where a scumbag abused the system. There will always be people abusing the system though and I guess the union did have the best interests of it's members at heart. This was the teamsters btw, another month of working and I would have been in the union and receiving benefits. I just didn't want to spend my life working in a warehouse.
This story reminds me on why we can't have nice things, and how people will always look for a loop-hole/easy ride for everything.
A union wouldn't prevent the scenario you described in any way, it could easily exist right along side.
And the reason small companies sell, is because for many of them it makes financial sense to do so, and they aren't going to let the principles of being a self owned indy studio with dubious future financial success stand in the way of a check for a couple mil. Compound that by the fact normally only one or two of them actually have ownership and get to make the decision (and get the bulk of that check), and it's easy to see why they sell.
It's obviously within their rights to sell a studio, I'm not objecting to that, merely explaining that when you have a system that allows the accumulation of capital at the top (EA, Ubi, Activision) they are going to have the financial power to muck around with other actors in the market, and not to the benefit of the consumers (or if there is, it's tangential, their impetus is to make money).
Ideally, I'd like to see more studios with group ownership, so that if a small studio of 5-10 people makes an internet indy hit, and a big name publisher approaches, they can decide as a group to sell or stay indy, and if they sell they all get a fair cut. I think that would be a good compromise.
I've seen 2 different companies I've worked for botch things at the management level (where they are getting paid 2-5x what I am just in salary), ruining the companies indy funding, and needing to run to a publisher for a buyout to keep funding their products. The products failed because the same inept managers were running the place, and the company got shredded. Doesn't matter to the owners, they still have their million dollar bonuses from the sale, but all of us workers who did our jobs well got the shaft, and none of that check. Had I been a voting part owner of the company, I'd have voted to fix the management problems long before, but were the sale required anyway, I would have voted no, and even if I was overruled, I'd have gotten a share of the sale so that when the company went kaput, I had some cash to weather the unemployed portion, or even try to start my own thing. Instead, the idiot clowns are still wealthy, and are now ruining some other company with their bad management.
I got screwed up a union once, but I wasn't in the union so I understand the need to protect workers. I personally think that the abuses by the companies are much worse than the small inconviences like in the following story.
I was working at a warehouse for the summer and a really lazy worker (he had been fired and rehired 3 times, his cousin owned the business) was annoyed because I was working too hard and making him look bad. Seriously, I would do what he did all day in an hour or two. His boss got on him about working so slow. Anyways I was working overtime an hour or two everyday because I would ride home with my Step-Dad who wouldn't get back with the company truck until 6 or 7.
After a few weeks I was told by my boss I would have to stop working overtime, because "someone" (lazy dude.) had complained to the union that a union worker needs to be asked to work those hours over a temp like me. For a few weeks I didn't work overtime and just sat around for a few hours and did nothing. Every other worker thought it was bullshit and they were in the union as well.
After all that my boss informed me that no-one in the union wanted to work the overtime hours and I was allowed to work again.
So yeah a situation where a scumbag abused the system. There will always be people abusing the system though and I guess the union did have the best interests of it's members at heart. This was the teamsters btw, another month of working and I would have been in the union and receiving benefits. I just didn't want to spend my life working in a warehouse.
Now I'm not interested in raining on your parade, since you were actually paid overtime, and you clearly had a good work ethic opposed to that lazyass. But I do see a problem... not something really wrong with what you did, but how our wonderful management these days could see it:
Management -
"Hey that guy there works overtime! Awesome, I love my staff to put in all that extra work... Wait a minute, my other workers don't put in any overtime, why did I hire them? From now on I'll only hire these super-duper overtime working guys!"
Thus, games companies hire guys who are rippin' and ready for crunch... Hell I can see the interviews now...
Interviewer -
"So what do you think of overtime*cough*crunch*cough*?"
Interviewee -
"Well I believe in an honest days hard work with reasonable overtime..."
*silently is crossed off the list*
On another note, I see a lot of talk, and maybe that's all we can do, but what is anybody doing about it? If that's even possible. We all talk about it and think about ways to avoid it, but is there anybody even coming together in groups to come up with hypothetical solutions or fixes, or union plans? Does anybody have the good graces of being able to communicate with management or upper level staff about such things? or if the can't because mentioning "benefits" to their employer will get them fired, do any of the people in the more reputable companies talk about what they do right and see how they could contribute to such improvement?
Snacuum, there is an easy fix. Find another job if your job is shitty. Shitty jobs are everywhere. You can fly to China right now and work in a child sweatshop if you want. The problem is that far too few people are fiscally responsible enough to have enough money to quit a job and find a new one. Most jobs out there don't work you to death. They have shifts and 8 hour days and benefit plans. No, it might not be at your ideal game studio, but when your choice is between a game studio with 120 hour weeks, and something else with 40 hour weeks, too many people choose the game studio.
So here's my plan, if I ever feel like I'm getting fucked, I leave. I make sure I have enough money saved up to do it.
There's a problem really. We're a generation of gamers who grew up old enough to work in the industry, and we'll do whatever it takes. So when you're out of a job and you want to carve your path into this industry, you'll do anything to get some experience into your resume.
There are people who will take advantage of that (whether or not it's appropriate isn't the issue, it's just there).
I think the solution to such problems is, well, having some respect to what you do, and work hard to develop skills that you KNOW are of high quality regardless of your work experience. If you respect yourself and feel like a professional, you won't take this shit from anybody. Making less money for a while is a better option than giving your hand to this folly, because by working in such conditions you:
1. allow your high quality work to exist in superficial, low grade games.
2. make it harder for your fellow artists (and yourself) to get better jobs.
Hopefully within a couple of years, now that this industry is so big, someone will start putting the companies in check to make sure there's no corruption. It's a new field of work, so companies are enjoying a time when governments and professionals didn't put much focus on work ethics, everyone just enjoy watching how this thing develops.
Had I been a voting part owner of the company, I'd have voted to fix the management problems long before, but were the sale required anyway, I would have voted no, and even if I was overruled, I'd have gotten a share of the sale so that when the company went kaput, I had some cash to weather the unemployed portion, or even try to start my own thing.
Where I work, after a year, you get entered into a share program. Based on yearly profits and personal performance, your share percentage increases. If the company gets sold, or I leave the company, I get my shares. Basically it works out that if the company stays on track with it's profits, and I'm here 5/6 years, I'll probably get roughly around £40,000. Which is still a very small slice of the pie, but is still moving forward, and staff get some benefits for doing well and helping the company be successful. Mind you, the studio I work for really looks after it's staff well, so this seems pretty rare at the moment.
Snacuum, there is an easy fix. Find another job if your job is shitty. Shitty jobs are everywhere. You can fly to China right now and work in a child sweatshop if you want. The problem is that far too few people are fiscally responsible enough to have enough money to quit a job and find a new one. Most jobs out there don't work you to death. They have shifts and 8 hour days and benefit plans. No, it might not be at your ideal game studio, but when your choice is between a game studio with 120 hour weeks, and something else with 40 hour weeks, too many people choose the game studio.
So here's my plan, if I ever feel like I'm getting fucked, I leave. I make sure I have enough money saved up to do it.
It is the height of privilege to suggest that every person has the option of leaving their job for another. I could post a hundred examples of situations where it's not possible for years at a time, but if someone lacks the empathy to already think of a few, they aren't going to be swayed by them.
However, I do agree that if you have the option of leaving, and you feel taken advantage of, you should do so. Too many people stay in a place because it's more comfortable than the unknown. If you are single, no debt, and have some savings, and a company is fucking you over, do not put up with it. Leave, work for a non 3d company if you have to till you find another 3d job.
However I understand plenty of people have families, debt that can't go even a single month without being paid, (often times through usurious rates, healthcare costs, insane student debt, upside down on their mortgage, etc) and don't have the option of leaving just because they are being fucked.
Just like in the case of assault, it's never the victim's fault, and always the perpetrator. It is not the workers fault if the employer tries illegal or just shitty moves to milk them for all their worth.
Snacuum, there is an easy fix. Find another job if your job is shitty. Shitty jobs are everywhere. You can fly to China right now and work in a child sweatshop if you want. The problem is that far too few people are fiscally responsible enough to have enough money to quit a job and find a new one. Most jobs out there don't work you to death. They have shifts and 8 hour days and benefit plans. No, it might not be at your ideal game studio, but when your choice is between a game studio with 120 hour weeks, and something else with 40 hour weeks, too many people choose the game studio.
So here's my plan, if I ever feel like I'm getting fucked, I leave. I make sure I have enough money saved up to do it.
But that's not the kind of solutions I was talking about. So many here are ruminating on whole game-changers like unions, and although switching jobs is a possibility that is immediately capable it is nothing but a bandaid: Just dressing the wound while the infection still spreads.
Back before labor unions you could have just told the miners and mill workers to "go get a better job" but where? At another mine or mill with terrible conditions? That's why there was a push for unions, all the big businesses knew how to make more out of their battered workers and there was no other way out. I'm not saying unions are the answer, but if a solution to being treated poorly is to move to china to compete with others who are treated poorly then who wins?
The best advice is try to get a job in a location where there are plenty of other studios, so you're not stuck at the only show in town in a bad situation. I wouldn't up and quit unless I had another job lined up already, unless it was really, really bad. But you always need to have a plan B in the games industry. Layoffs or poor working conditions are all too common.
I think the real question should be why are layoffs or poor working conditions common in our industry? And what can be done about it? I thought our industry was made up of smart rational nerds yet we work ourselves to death.
out of curiosity, would anyone here be in favor of a co-op?
Unions have their ups and downs but not being in a union means you're going to get shafted all the time. Perhaps management and the workers working together would benefit everybody.
Those smart rational nerds are the workers, not management - which often come from entirely different industries.
That's right. We unfortunately live in a world where the people who get the most money are simply those who dedicate their whole professional being to the getting of more money. Do they deserve it? who knows?
Whereas for people who spend their professional lives making fantastic art can't necessarily just trade it for the kind of bucks those other guys make, and even if they could, they would be trading with the bigwigs anyway.
Those smart rational nerds are the workers, not management - which often come from entirely different industries.
most jobs ive had, ive been managed by people who have never worked in that field, personally ive never understood it but i think with the gaming industry creative people are not seen as businessly sound, so in walk your bobby koticks.
There would be nothing wrong with a manager who doesn't know anything about 3d, as long as they were skilled at project management, juggling schedules and overlaps, and trying to get the vision from above (or from the side in the game design department) implemented without trying to insert changes of their own.
Unfortunately that doesn't happen often. Just like offloading design to dedicated 2d concept artists was supposed to stream line and assembly line the process, offloading the scheduling, time management, and communication between people and teams is why we "need" leads/managers/producers, but so few times do they actually function that way and are instead reward positions for people who've been at the company a long time, but possess none of these skills.
So here's my plan, if I ever feel like I'm getting fucked, I leave. I make sure I have enough money saved up to do it.
So many people say this, but how many actually go through with it? Not trying to single you out Aesir, but asking seriously. How many people here have quit to preserve their principals and their sanity?
I was treated like absolute garbage at my last job, it got to a point where things were completely ridiculous, when I accepted that the situation wasn't ever going to improve I quit. So many people were completely shocked, like it couldn't be done. I didn't have anything lined up at the time, it was a pretty tense situation that lead to the final decision, but I knew it just wasn't worth it anymore.
As much as it felt awesome to be free, it was a scary month or two getting my shit together before switching over to freelance and finding some good steady work. The kind of money I was paid there didn't really leave me rolling in savings (regardless of frugal spending habits), so I had to rely on what little I had combined with some good credit to make it out alive.
In the end it was absolutely worth it, but man if I had a house, or kids? I dont know if I could have done it and still slept at night.
Look it's because we are making a game that no one has ever tried making before so it's part of something cutting edge, you're privileged to work here.
that is true "cutting edge" is costly as far as risk and hours, but at no point will working people into the grave ever do anything good. A good well rested employee will do 10x better than an over worked zombie.
It is the height of privilege to suggest that every person has the option of leaving their job for another. I could post a hundred examples of situations where it's not possible for years at a time, but if someone lacks the empathy to already think of a few, they aren't going to be swayed by them.
However, I do agree that if you have the option of leaving, and you feel taken advantage of, you should do so. Too many people stay in a place because it's more comfortable than the unknown. If you are single, no debt, and have some savings, and a company is fucking you over, do not put up with it. Leave, work for a non 3d company if you have to till you find another 3d job.
However I understand plenty of people have families, debt that can't go even a single month without being paid, (often times through usurious rates, healthcare costs, insane student debt, upside down on their mortgage, etc) and don't have the option of leaving just because they are being fucked.
Just like in the case of assault, it's never the victim's fault, and always the perpetrator. It is not the workers fault if the employer tries illegal or just shitty moves to milk them for all their worth.
*this*
And to add to your first part : Right now, with the way things are in the global economies, and how unsettling it is to see such instability all around you, including in your own job market, people are probably going to try to tough it out as long as they can till things elsewhere are looking up, and much more stable.
Though it would help of phoney baloney digital art colleges weren't dragging overly trusting individuals into massive debt before they ever make it into the field.
Also to add to your conclusion: Lets just say I know someone, who's had to experience first hand what office place abuse can do to someone. Be it something that's thrown in their face, or something done behind closed doors without their knowledge, so it just seems like its the bureaucratic system falling upon them, and not the doings of a self-gratifying individual. Im not sure which is worse, when the abuse is right there in your face, or when its deceitful backstabbing.
So many people say this, but how many actually go through with it? Not trying to single you out Aesir, but asking seriously. How many people here have quit to preserve their principals and their sanity?
I´ve done it 3x now, but all 3x I was single, had a nice savings account, and no health problems, and got lucky enough to have another job lined up to jump over to (though I went looking for those other jobs out of being frustrated with the current one).
But all 3x, there were coworkers who were just as frustrated, would have loved to move, but family/finances/health prevented them from doing more than fantasize about it.
that is true "cutting edge" is costly as far as risk and hours, but at no point will working people into the grave ever do anything good. A good well rested employee will do 10x better than an over worked zombie.
Yeah, but that's assuming a zero sum game. What happens when you have an endless supply of fresh faced 20 year olds with pretty good folios they learned outside your funding? You can work them to death and then drop them when they are used up or they leave. It's still not that efficient, but basically every game on the shelf currently proves it's at least a partially viable strategy.
Yeah, but that's assuming a zero sum game. What happens when you have an endless supply of fresh faced 20 year olds with pretty good folios they learned outside your funding? You can work them to death and then drop them when they are used up or they leave. It's still not that efficient, but basically every game on the shelf currently proves it's at least a partially viable strategy.
Exactly. Why should big business do the right thing, when the wrong thing just makes so much more money?
Replies
Contractors fought for benefits from employers, it became law that a contractor who works at a studio for more than 9 months is entitled to benefits. Good right? Nope, now contractors get a 3 month unpaid vacation to save on paying said benefits.
Then who is taking taxes out of my paycheck?
Yeah, but it's the producers' and studio manager's role to handle that and soften the blow on the team, since the people in charge at the HQ don't have such a clear idea of what's going on in each studio. And they'll always be pushy, since there's a lot of money in stake there. Not that I agree with that, but it makes sense...
Now that is the correct question to ask. I say super bikini models on Yachts.
Totally agreed, but there are too many inexperienced managers and leads..
Who says game development is easily outsourced? It's incredibly fraught with it's own difficulties, and even then, you need several in house 3d artists to manage them, ensure compatibility and set pipelines, and if this imaginary union were as wide reaching as say, SAG, those in house 3d guys would be part of the union, ensuring they would have zero 3d artists unless they agree not to outsource more than X jobs. And if all you have is management people and an outsourcing studio in the 3rd world, hahahah, yeah good luck with that.
I have yet to see an outsourcing solution that was easy and cheap. It is either cheap with shitty quality and no attention paid to tech specs, or the quality and attention to detail is there, and they charge as much as an in house team would cost. This all assumes you can somehow still have a great game with such disconnected and un-invested artists in the first place. Sure you could make Sims, but a game with actual art style? no way.
Yeah, but those wizard MBAs who work at the publishers and sign off on big freelance deals don't know this.
I don't think they would mind the expensive part It's the lack of control I think they would be the most turned off about. I see It like this if their was such a union in place to support/protect and keep us all healthy/working/wealthy (for the most part) but studio's couldn't control the time frames of our schedules, so if their actual work hours were from 8:6 as soon as 6 hit the rule would be that It would be up to their artist as to weather or not they continued working but this would start OT no exceptions. The choice is their for the individual so they can live a little bit of this life they have instead of feeling obligated to work instead of having some BS fear of being let go because he/she wants to get out of work on time.
To end I really want this because of the control we would have.
If It was started by us we set the rules, regulations and all that jazz they loose control and that's exactly what should happen because without us to create their visions their wouldn't be shit (or less appealing work).
All these OT no payment/late payment/under payment situations would stop, the abuse would stop, the rightful compensation would start, you can live your life and see your family, It's about time.
continuous layoffs a lot of people are out of work and looking for alternative jobs outside of the industry and that's shitty right their.
I was working at a warehouse for the summer and a really lazy worker (he had been fired and rehired 3 times, his cousin owned the business) was annoyed because I was working too hard and making him look bad. Seriously, I would do what he did all day in an hour or two. His boss got on him about working so slow. Anyways I was working overtime an hour or two everyday because I would ride home with my Step-Dad who wouldn't get back with the company truck until 6 or 7.
After a few weeks I was told by my boss I would have to stop working overtime, because "someone" (lazy dude.) had complained to the union that a union worker needs to be asked to work those hours over a temp like me. For a few weeks I didn't work overtime and just sat around for a few hours and did nothing. Every other worker thought it was bullshit and they were in the union as well.
After all that my boss informed me that no-one in the union wanted to work the overtime hours and I was allowed to work again.
So yeah a situation where a scumbag abused the system. There will always be people abusing the system though and I guess the union did have the best interests of it's members at heart. This was the teamsters btw, another month of working and I would have been in the union and receiving benefits. I just didn't want to spend my life working in a warehouse.
And the reason small companies sell, is because for many of them it makes financial sense to do so, and they aren't going to let the principles of being a self owned indy studio with dubious future financial success stand in the way of a check for a couple mil. Compound that by the fact normally only one or two of them actually have ownership and get to make the decision (and get the bulk of that check), and it's easy to see why they sell.
Ideally, I'd like to see more studios with group ownership, so that if a small studio of 5-10 people makes an internet indy hit, and a big name publisher approaches, they can decide as a group to sell or stay indy, and if they sell they all get a fair cut. I think that would be a good compromise.
I've seen 2 different companies I've worked for botch things at the management level (where they are getting paid 2-5x what I am just in salary), ruining the companies indy funding, and needing to run to a publisher for a buyout to keep funding their products. The products failed because the same inept managers were running the place, and the company got shredded. Doesn't matter to the owners, they still have their million dollar bonuses from the sale, but all of us workers who did our jobs well got the shaft, and none of that check. Had I been a voting part owner of the company, I'd have voted to fix the management problems long before, but were the sale required anyway, I would have voted no, and even if I was overruled, I'd have gotten a share of the sale so that when the company went kaput, I had some cash to weather the unemployed portion, or even try to start my own thing. Instead, the idiot clowns are still wealthy, and are now ruining some other company with their bad management.
Now I'm not interested in raining on your parade, since you were actually paid overtime, and you clearly had a good work ethic opposed to that lazyass. But I do see a problem... not something really wrong with what you did, but how our wonderful management these days could see it:
Management -
"Hey that guy there works overtime! Awesome, I love my staff to put in all that extra work... Wait a minute, my other workers don't put in any overtime, why did I hire them? From now on I'll only hire these super-duper overtime working guys!"
Thus, games companies hire guys who are rippin' and ready for crunch... Hell I can see the interviews now...
Interviewer -
"So what do you think of overtime*cough*crunch*cough*?"
Interviewee -
"Well I believe in an honest days hard work with reasonable overtime..."
*silently is crossed off the list*
On another note, I see a lot of talk, and maybe that's all we can do, but what is anybody doing about it? If that's even possible. We all talk about it and think about ways to avoid it, but is there anybody even coming together in groups to come up with hypothetical solutions or fixes, or union plans? Does anybody have the good graces of being able to communicate with management or upper level staff about such things? or if the can't because mentioning "benefits" to their employer will get them fired, do any of the people in the more reputable companies talk about what they do right and see how they could contribute to such improvement?
Maybe it is happening and we can't see it...
So here's my plan, if I ever feel like I'm getting fucked, I leave. I make sure I have enough money saved up to do it.
There are people who will take advantage of that (whether or not it's appropriate isn't the issue, it's just there).
I think the solution to such problems is, well, having some respect to what you do, and work hard to develop skills that you KNOW are of high quality regardless of your work experience. If you respect yourself and feel like a professional, you won't take this shit from anybody. Making less money for a while is a better option than giving your hand to this folly, because by working in such conditions you:
1. allow your high quality work to exist in superficial, low grade games.
2. make it harder for your fellow artists (and yourself) to get better jobs.
Hopefully within a couple of years, now that this industry is so big, someone will start putting the companies in check to make sure there's no corruption. It's a new field of work, so companies are enjoying a time when governments and professionals didn't put much focus on work ethics, everyone just enjoy watching how this thing develops.
Where I work, after a year, you get entered into a share program. Based on yearly profits and personal performance, your share percentage increases. If the company gets sold, or I leave the company, I get my shares. Basically it works out that if the company stays on track with it's profits, and I'm here 5/6 years, I'll probably get roughly around £40,000. Which is still a very small slice of the pie, but is still moving forward, and staff get some benefits for doing well and helping the company be successful. Mind you, the studio I work for really looks after it's staff well, so this seems pretty rare at the moment.
It is the height of privilege to suggest that every person has the option of leaving their job for another. I could post a hundred examples of situations where it's not possible for years at a time, but if someone lacks the empathy to already think of a few, they aren't going to be swayed by them.
However, I do agree that if you have the option of leaving, and you feel taken advantage of, you should do so. Too many people stay in a place because it's more comfortable than the unknown. If you are single, no debt, and have some savings, and a company is fucking you over, do not put up with it. Leave, work for a non 3d company if you have to till you find another 3d job.
However I understand plenty of people have families, debt that can't go even a single month without being paid, (often times through usurious rates, healthcare costs, insane student debt, upside down on their mortgage, etc) and don't have the option of leaving just because they are being fucked.
Just like in the case of assault, it's never the victim's fault, and always the perpetrator. It is not the workers fault if the employer tries illegal or just shitty moves to milk them for all their worth.
But that's not the kind of solutions I was talking about. So many here are ruminating on whole game-changers like unions, and although switching jobs is a possibility that is immediately capable it is nothing but a bandaid: Just dressing the wound while the infection still spreads.
Back before labor unions you could have just told the miners and mill workers to "go get a better job" but where? At another mine or mill with terrible conditions? That's why there was a push for unions, all the big businesses knew how to make more out of their battered workers and there was no other way out. I'm not saying unions are the answer, but if a solution to being treated poorly is to move to china to compete with others who are treated poorly then who wins?
out of curiosity, would anyone here be in favor of a co-op?
Unions have their ups and downs but not being in a union means you're going to get shafted all the time. Perhaps management and the workers working together would benefit everybody.
That's right. We unfortunately live in a world where the people who get the most money are simply those who dedicate their whole professional being to the getting of more money. Do they deserve it? who knows?
Whereas for people who spend their professional lives making fantastic art can't necessarily just trade it for the kind of bucks those other guys make, and even if they could, they would be trading with the bigwigs anyway.
most jobs ive had, ive been managed by people who have never worked in that field, personally ive never understood it but i think with the gaming industry creative people are not seen as businessly sound, so in walk your bobby koticks.
Unfortunately that doesn't happen often. Just like offloading design to dedicated 2d concept artists was supposed to stream line and assembly line the process, offloading the scheduling, time management, and communication between people and teams is why we "need" leads/managers/producers, but so few times do they actually function that way and are instead reward positions for people who've been at the company a long time, but possess none of these skills.
So many people say this, but how many actually go through with it? Not trying to single you out Aesir, but asking seriously. How many people here have quit to preserve their principals and their sanity?
I was treated like absolute garbage at my last job, it got to a point where things were completely ridiculous, when I accepted that the situation wasn't ever going to improve I quit. So many people were completely shocked, like it couldn't be done. I didn't have anything lined up at the time, it was a pretty tense situation that lead to the final decision, but I knew it just wasn't worth it anymore.
As much as it felt awesome to be free, it was a scary month or two getting my shit together before switching over to freelance and finding some good steady work. The kind of money I was paid there didn't really leave me rolling in savings (regardless of frugal spending habits), so I had to rely on what little I had combined with some good credit to make it out alive.
In the end it was absolutely worth it, but man if I had a house, or kids? I dont know if I could have done it and still slept at night.
that is true "cutting edge" is costly as far as risk and hours, but at no point will working people into the grave ever do anything good. A good well rested employee will do 10x better than an over worked zombie.
*this*
And to add to your first part : Right now, with the way things are in the global economies, and how unsettling it is to see such instability all around you, including in your own job market, people are probably going to try to tough it out as long as they can till things elsewhere are looking up, and much more stable.
Though it would help of phoney baloney digital art colleges weren't dragging overly trusting individuals into massive debt before they ever make it into the field.
Also to add to your conclusion: Lets just say I know someone, who's had to experience first hand what office place abuse can do to someone. Be it something that's thrown in their face, or something done behind closed doors without their knowledge, so it just seems like its the bureaucratic system falling upon them, and not the doings of a self-gratifying individual. Im not sure which is worse, when the abuse is right there in your face, or when its deceitful backstabbing.
I´ve done it 3x now, but all 3x I was single, had a nice savings account, and no health problems, and got lucky enough to have another job lined up to jump over to (though I went looking for those other jobs out of being frustrated with the current one).
But all 3x, there were coworkers who were just as frustrated, would have loved to move, but family/finances/health prevented them from doing more than fantasize about it.
Yeah, but that's assuming a zero sum game. What happens when you have an endless supply of fresh faced 20 year olds with pretty good folios they learned outside your funding? You can work them to death and then drop them when they are used up or they leave. It's still not that efficient, but basically every game on the shelf currently proves it's at least a partially viable strategy.
Exactly. Why should big business do the right thing, when the wrong thing just makes so much more money?