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Angel Statue

polycounter lvl 7
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feanix polycounter lvl 7
I'm working on a staue for a sitting angel for a scene I did I while ago. Most the angel is only visible from the back and its only a small part of the scene so I don't want to spend tooooo long getting every last detail perfect. I do generally want something that looks good, however, even the parts that won't be seen at all. Here's the concept for the statue (Might not be a statue in this, but whatever).

qQrSK.png

It's from a larger piece of concept art.

I'm fairly happy with the hair and the body so far. I'm struggling a bit with the clothing and I'm definitely starting to feel a bit lost with the wings. Anyone have any good tips for sculpting wings in zbrush? :(:(

eM1TU.pngfvesw.png

EDIT: Reference I used for face and hair:
4FvUD.png

Replies

  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Tried using this technique to get the feathers done but didn't have much luck. Damn but this is owning me. :(
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 13
    Gnomon Workshop has a free tutorial on feather sculpting here: http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/category/168/
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    I'll check that out, thanks! :D
  • Neavah
    I personally think you need waaay more references.

    Google angle statues and take a look at the clothing, (design, and folds etc) then get some for the wings, and face/body/position etc. Get LOTS. merge ideas, or pick one (mix, match) and recreate it.

    with that being said - I also think you need to revisit the face. I think theres still a lot of improvement you could make on it. (as well as the rest of the body)

    but you need more references (profile of face etc.)


    hope that helps :)
  • daphz
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    daphz polycounter lvl 13
    you're off to a good start man, but I agree with Neavah about using more reference. The dress is lookin' really smooth. and the face could be pulled up a bit.

    vatican-angel-statue-740163.jpg

    stock-photo-sitting-angel-statue-2009433.jpg

    as for the feathers I wouldn't worry about putting in all small fibers on them, just cutting in the rough shapes of em with the spine down the middle. and some small lines to imply those fibers.

    Female_angel_statue_s16_stock_by_LemnosExplorer.jpg

    hope that makes sense! :)
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that character modelling is not my strong point at all. These are a a necessary evil in the scene that I'm working on at the moment (quick progress shot of that).

    I've been putting off this statue for a while cos it was kicking my ass so hard but I'll revisit it in a few days and try all your suggestions! Thanks so much for all your time and critique! <3
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Hokay. So I've been working on this a bit. Here's what I have in ZBrush:
    RV1i8.jpg

    And here's a test bake showin in modo:
    wHinT.jpg

    There are a few baking problems here and then but I think that by the time it's in engine and all the damage and weathering has been added it won't really be noticeable anymore.
  • TortillaChips
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    TortillaChips polycounter lvl 10
    It's looking alright but it doesn't look correct, do you have any reference images for those wings?
  • Maph
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    Maph polycounter lvl 8
    The feathers are placed without structure and with a lack of understanding of how wings are constructed, which is your main problem with them. Think about where they should go before you place them. :)
    Agreed on previous comments on the cloth. And I would suggest working less "clean" when doing statues!
    The face is too smooth and too crisp for it to be a statue. Take a good look at all those classical sculptures, hard crisp lines and changes of planes are very rare in general. Remember, those things where usually built from a single massive piece of stone, try to convey that as well.
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Arg! Can't find the reference I was using but it was a stone wing that was basically exactly like that. The wings in the reference were clearly anatomically "wrong" but they actually frequently are. My goal wasn't to create anatomically correct wings, just something that would read as "wings" to the casual observer.

    As for the crisp lines, I'm pretty sure those will be much less apparently after baking. They were after I baked the statues to either side of the door.

    Thanks for the C&C! Sorry if I'm coming across as obstinate! :(
  • p3r4app01
    your wings look like layers of banana peels
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Fair point. And if this was a centre piece model or a spcific sculpt I'd be spending faaar more time on it. Truth is, that more effort won't really be noticed once the this model is placed in the nevironment and has fog, lighting and godrays smearing all of it. :P One of the most important things is the silhouette, which I'm happy with.

    The feathers could have been a lot better but I don't think I'm that good a sculptor to be able to pull off that kind of detail. :(
  • yodude87
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    yodude87 polycounter lvl 5
    hey there feanix.

    piece of advice: you took a quite hard subject to work. the best wy to work it would be to look at some bernini and canova for reference. they were the best as far as drappery and fine details in marble sculpts. tomorrow ill try and give you some good reference shots, but if you google for it you can find dozens of them.
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Thanks for the advice yodude! Yeah, this is a tough one, waaay to much like character modelling for my liking. But the concept of the environment that I'm doing has an angel statue in it and so I've just gotta do SOMETHING to put in there.

    My guess is that in a regular studio the character modeller would actually be doing statue, not the environment modeller! :P
  • Anuxinamoon
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    Anuxinamoon polycounter lvl 14
    Hey feanix,
    I know you said the wings are "like the reference" but you don't have a picture which shows us the reference you are currently using for the wings.
    All we have to critique you on is how we understand bird wings to look like as that is the closest resemblance to traditional angel wings on many statues. (see daphz's images)
    I think you should spend some time trying to match to a reference as close as possible. There is no shame in Copying when you are learning and it will allow you to reinforce how to make the best use of your reference and bolster your sculpting skills.

    I know its frustrating I can tell already that you are getting annoyed at this piece. But understand that when you are frustrated that means you are actively learning ans solving problems. This experience is vital. The key is to not let it get the better of you and to try not to cut corners to ease the frustration.

    Please post images of the references you are using so we have better idea on the focus of the critiques.
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Hey Anux, thanks for the advice. I really think I need to back away from the peice, I'm too heavuly into it. I've got something that's at least usable out of this pass.

    This is the angle at which it will be viewed in the scene (and only from this angle):
    gwyPO.jpg

    And here's the other side, just cos it's there:
    0JiI8.jpg

    So yeah, it's not the greatest model in the world. In fact, it's a bit shitty. I'm just not good at this sort of thing. That's why I'm not a character modeller, it's not my strong point. I've just been gritting my teeth and doing my best to push out something that will do. You've all given me a bunch of great tips and they'll definitely be useful going forward.

    It's definitely possible that I'll revisit this particular asset in the coming weeks or months. But right now, I hate it a lot and I have a headache from blitzing to just get it over with. Definitely not the best frame of mind to be doing art in.

    I'll link to the asset in the scene tomorrow when I get this in engine.

    Once again, thanks to all of you who gave me advice and critique, even if it didn't come to much! <3
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
    It's not too bad, mate, you're far too hard on yourself. There are a few areas that you could touch up, but on the other hand there are some areas that work pretty well. The face and hair are nicely executed - simple forms, but that's appropriate for a statue. The texture is also really rather nice - it conveys the worn stone material very well.

    It'd be worth finishing off the pillar she's sitting on as it'd help sell the model better.

    Keep at it.
  • r_fletch_r
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    r_fletch_r polycounter lvl 9
    This is looking nice but there are a few things that i think are weakening it.

    1: the moss doesn't look thick enough and its placement is quite random. as it is now it looks like a green tint, rather than a covering of vegitation. You might try baking an AO map with a broad search radius and using that as a mask (invert it). Modo has some neat up and down facing AO methods that might work well for this.

    also with regard to the wings. at the point where they bend softly into a down slope it looks very unnatural. that should be a joint of 2 bones.

    posewise it looks off balance. I would lean them forward more to account for the weight of the wings on their back.
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Jackablade: Thanks for the encouragement! :) The pillar is actually done already, that mesh is just there to help me position her. You can see the nearly complete environment (you should recognize the pillar on the left side at the end of the balcony) in this image.

    r_fletch_r: Thanks for the advice fletch! It's not mean to be moss, really, it's meant to be more like algae/lichen. This is a standard texturing technique that I've applied to all the masonry assets in the scene to keep them feeling consistent.

    If you're refering to modo 501's new AO maps they are definitely very cool but they can't be baked out because the ornly work in the regular renderer and not when baking to texture. Double sadness. :(

    The wings could certainly benefit from being revisited in future.

    And the pose is off. I meant to correct that (just be bending the low poly! :P) but I was kinda frazzled last night and I totally forgot. Will definitely be done, though! :D
  • PogoP
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    PogoP polycounter lvl 10
    Looks great Pieter. I agree with what everybody else has said, but do not get disheartened. It's much better than a lot of other stuff people post up here, keep going!
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Thanks for the kind words, Liam! Much appreciated! <3
  • StuButler
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    StuButler polycounter lvl 9
    Keep at it Pieter, remember to be willing to take the critique and build upon it. Don't get too personal with the piece and access the available advice here. You're doing some really good work at the moment with your blog and your other stuff, keep your head up and keep up the good work!
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Just as a conclusion, here's what the model looks like in game. It took a bit of faffery to get the lightmap UVs working just right but it's in there.

    1svSD.jpg
    qjbUn.jpg

    And here's the full scene image. You can see that the angel is definitely making a huge impact on the scene. :P
    ZKGBC.jpg
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    Stu: Thanks for the advice and encouragement, Stu! It means a lot to me! I guess I can be a bit cagey sometimes, especially when I'm feeling insecure about the work I'm doing! :P I'll do what I can do improve that! *war face*
  • StuButler
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    StuButler polycounter lvl 9
    The angle of the camera shot and the rocky background result in the angel being very hard to see as it bleeds into the rocks, might be worth tweaking the waterfall / rocks to give more contrast behind her. I know it's not the primary focus of the piece but seems silly not to show off the hard work.
  • feanix
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    feanix polycounter lvl 7
    I'm thinking of putting a fog plane on the other side of her to bring out her silhouette. Think that'll do the job?
  • StuButler
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    StuButler polycounter lvl 9
    Give it a try.
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