Borneo Level Uncharted 2 Modularity? Discuss
polycounter lvl 6
Hi Folks,
I was reading a PDF released from Naughty Dog about some of their work on Uncharted 2.
There was a part in the pdf that showed the Borneo level and how it was fully modeled and textured in Maya then they showed what it looked like rendered in the engine.
My question is after the level was fully modeled in maya did they break apart chunks of it to import and reassemble? The maya screenshot looks seamless in the PDF but surely they are not importing the whole level as a model?
The Borneo level does not look modular at all. Every part of the terrain is a different shape.
I have been working on similar type level ideas and I will be using UDK and I'm wondering if this type of approach can even be used in UDK?
Any insight into this matter from Polycounters would be great!
Thanks.
I was reading a PDF released from Naughty Dog about some of their work on Uncharted 2.
There was a part in the pdf that showed the Borneo level and how it was fully modeled and textured in Maya then they showed what it looked like rendered in the engine.
My question is after the level was fully modeled in maya did they break apart chunks of it to import and reassemble? The maya screenshot looks seamless in the PDF but surely they are not importing the whole level as a model?
The Borneo level does not look modular at all. Every part of the terrain is a different shape.
I have been working on similar type level ideas and I will be using UDK and I'm wondering if this type of approach can even be used in UDK?
Any insight into this matter from Polycounters would be great!
Thanks.
Replies
They then placed everything manually in their location.
In UDK, you now have the ability to export entire levels to FBX format, so placing stuff around should be much easier, especially if you're going after the animation route.
I no have idea what the Uncharted engine is capable of, but UDK is very easy.
So that WHOLE section of the level on the left including the walkway and side wall and roots are all one model imported into the engine? That's a big model!
It makes sense because how else would you get the roots modeled to fit perfectly unless it was all done in Maya.
But I guess they could separate the roots for export and re-assemble into the engine because they already know they "fit" into the rock parts perfectly.
hrmmm
Also, they're making good use of AO fades in the game to assemble things. If you notice, many trees and rocks are simple stumps studded on the floor, the soft shadows at those intersection and 90 degrees, are helping smooth out things and make them more natural. Take away the AO at those places and BAM, it looks ugly.
Uncharted 2 Art Direction PDF
They must have just sliced it up into manageable chunks/models.
BSP is not fun to work with I agree. I will most likely try making my level's using 95% models.
The uncharted games are great for showing so much random detail. Usually when you walk around a game environment you can kind of pick out what they did.. Guess what was BSP and what were models etc.
But with uncharted it's hard to tell. It's not just ground plane, with curved terrain on both sides like a half pipe, covered where they meet by foliage and rocks. : ) lol.
Keep discussing!
However, people still use the Terrain system in UDK and it is used alot, I would have to see how someone would go about making a large terrain for a desert scene, and do the collision correctly or go "Per-Vertex-Collision", and it recently got a revamp a la ZB style with DX11 tessellation. Plus, the entire export FBX function will be useful for you to place your objects in the scene correct and have them exported right in the needed position.
I'm generally ticked off when people don't try a game engine and read it's documentation. Uncharted did nothing new that the UDK can't do, plus, with the easy to use Terrain management system, as well FBX support from UDK (which I mentioned about 3/4 times) with the added joy of new sculpting tools for the Terrain, I don't see the problems at all. Plus, UDK has SpeeTree integrated inside, meaning you can create your own Trees, have them wrap around specific meshes (to give that Vines look within the games) and the trees have their own animations, bones, thresholds setup pretty easily.
Unless someone can bring up the documentation of what the game engine itself was capable of, I don't see anything majorly different or superior to UDK or workflow.
you could easily model a huge terrain piece in max and export it in chunks for lightmaps to udk, it would probably look far superior to blobbly game engine terrain that you see in most games, ofcourse it is more time consuming though. also, from what I have read most of the environment artists at ND are strictly environment modelers and the texture artists do most of the UV/texture work. I could be wrong, maybe autocon can clarify that for us. it would explain how they have the time to make tons of custom model work if they are modeling like crazy all day.
these are from an old article on game-artist.net
It seems that by creating levels this way you have the most precision and artistic expression.
But ya it must take a lot longer!
I would really like to see that video of them assembling that level!
And that was the pdf i was referring too. Great read.
Thanks for all the responses and opinions so far!
The jointed root instances and different texture blending on modified instanced looked nice too.
And the normal map comparison is just good solid advice...
http://www.xtrm3d.com/main.html?main.html
http://www.henrychengart.com/environmentart_page.html
http://www.landofkoz.com/portfolio.html
http://www.mikemurrill.com/
http://www.johngermann.com/index.html
http://www.rooz3d.com/Site/Welcome.html
Not much, but maybe you can study there meshes and see how stuff is broken up.
edit:haha yeah that was all explained in the pdf, my bad
Holy shit, that's some serious inspiration material. I've always respected those guys. But making such complex levels in a 3D package is just MAD. Or maybe I'm just too spoiled with UDK, CE and all that jazz.
In engines that are like UDK you have to import all your assets into the engine and then assemble the scene. In proprietary engines there is no actual "engine" part like UDK where you have to import things into to build your scene. There is no point, everything is exported directly from your 3d program to your dev kit. The reason UDK and others are like this is because the not everyone uses the same 3d package. This way it doesn't matter what the studio uses to create there art work, everything is assembled in the engine.
Also yes, our environments are created by 2 people. Environment Artist who models everything, and Texture Artist, who dose the UVing and creation of textures/shaders. Environment artists are just like most other studios expect we dont UV and dont create textures/shaders expect for foliage, which we do create unless out sourced.
So here at Naughty Dog we export things directly from Maya to our PS3's. It is a lot faster then exporting things out to then be put in an engine and then assembled there. Not only is it faster but it will always be better then having to put something in UDK as you have so much more control over everything.
We of course use modular parts to make up our scenes, as everyone dose. We use Maya's ref nodes to help do this. Much like UDK has assets in the asset browser, we have our own asset browser to look at all the modular parts we made in Maya and bring them into the scenes we need too. We also have custom made shader programs that directly connect to Maya and other programs for designers/lighters to use.
For terrain, it is all hand modeled. As is everything at ND. No use of any height maps or things like that at all. Terrain that is created is unique and not modular unless it is something like rock terrain that can be used modularity like some of the rock cliffs shown in those screen shots. Like we dont create a single floor tile and make up a floor with that instanced around.
We have some crazy wizards here make our tech and get get a way with a lot of thing with instances most people would believe impossible. Our trees are of course hand modeled. Some are outsourced but nothing like speed tree is used. Our trees have bones in the roots. This lets us conform roots to whatever rock there on, or whatever the ground maybe be like. They are still instances of each other and are only slightly more expensive then trees with roots that cannot move. The very slight increase in every instances memory is not noticeable when compared to the fact that all our trees then look unique.
We use this method of modified instances a good amount. It is how uncharted has that very organic/unique look to all areas, instead of the very obvious repetition of instanced assets like a lot of games have. We use it a lot on things like foliage, small rocks, small detail assets like things that go on tables, or clutter assets that really make a scene come to life.
But the biggest reason Uncharted dosnt have that "modular" look that lots of games do and everything looks unique is because we have some Amazingly talented people here. I am always reminded of how lucky I am getting to work here with such talented individuals.
Autocon your post was very informative. Thanks! Read through it many times...
I simply must learn about how ND places bones in the trees roots to then easily deform different instanced trees around the enviro. It sounds simple enough :O aha Probly not though!
Only two artist for Uncharted 2 level creation? 1 modeler and 1 texture artist. Did I ready that right?
How much of the foliage was outsourced for Uncharted 2?
Hand modeled terrain looks fantastic.
Ark those links to ND artist portfolio's wow! Great stuff.
At last I just wish I could create and texture my level in XSI and export into an engine to render. Presto! But like every other artist building a portfolio I'll have to stick to solutions like UDK .etc.
Cheers
Chris.
Defiantly not simple at all. It would also have to be something in your engine. Its not something someone could do say in UDK or Crysis unless its coded to work that way. From what I have been told no other studio uses anything similar to that. But will all benefits comes draw backs which this of course induces. But all studios have different ways of doing things other studios do, and all have tech and awesome things others don't. It really depends on the game your creating as that will drive the creation of new tech to fit the needs of the game.
For the most part that is correct. 1 guy dose all the modeling, scene creation and technical hurdles of management, and one guys dose all the texture creation, UVing and shader set up. Gives create consistency throughout levels and the artist a real feeling of ownership of a level/look/style. Its just the way Naughty Dog prefers to do things. Where other studios prefer to let there artists touch as many areas as they can so they dont get sick of a section and give them a chance to add even more creativity to the levels then just 2 guys.
Both have pros and cons.
Cant say how much or even what was outsourced for Uncharted 2 as I joined on for Uncharted 3 and was working at Bungie. Outsourcing stuff is up to the environment artist to deiced what needs to be outsourced. The majority of outsourcing items though seem to lean to the unique mapped assets as those take a long time to do.
Also greatly depends on your level and what is most important the environment artist makes and what is less important to have outsourcing do. Even simple things like plants and such are outsourced due to what the environment artist wants to prioritize there time on. Because even simple things do take time.
How much time were these guys given? I though Naughty Dogs had a HUGE art team working on something as awesome looking as this!
I think I need to rethink the way I work!
No, that's 1+1 per level.
For example, how did you guys determine what kind of style to use (to keep the same look throughout the whole game) as well as organize the passing over of documentations and cleanup sessions.
I was given a Post Mortem document, as well a general PDF to follow in a teams work, but everyone is so schizophrenic and unorganized that I'm giving up hope that I will ever understand how to document stuff.
Also, where there any ways to organize assets from the game?
I would love any info you could drop, that would be just divine!
@Autocon Thank you for giving us so much insight in the workflow you guys utilize.
I've always been a great fan of ND and my respect grows with every post I read.
Mr. Smith
this is so awesome!
thanks a tonnn for sharing
lol Zipfinator same here xD
For determining what style to use, well that was decided way back on Uncharted: Drakes Fortune (well before I started). So its not hard to follow the same style already set by the first and second game. Also the awesome concept team creates concepts that really exemplify Uncharted and that always makes things so much easier when you are lucky enough to have a amazing concept to base your entire level off of.
As for documentation, much like all game companys, its all over the place ha. A lot of people think that if a studio makes a good game they must have there shit together. Well truth be told they are more then likely just as chaotic as any other studio. We do have a wiki people CAN update, but there is hardly any info actually on there. There are also a few documented word docs on some tools such as our water system but even then, that was written when Uncharted 1 came out and its a lot of trial and error to get that too work. Silly programmers not documenting things better! lol
Up until midway through UC2 most people were taught the tools by sitting down with a lead the first 2 days and going over everything. Eventually this became way too time consuming for the leads and they hated it. So they just filmed it all. So now when you start you get like a days worth of videos going over all the main tools you will need to do your job. Anything questions you have after, all you have to do is ask someone.
Also any time an email gets sent out that has good info in it related to someone you might use someday most people just save those emails. Email thing works great because then you can just forward it to someone when they need the info.
At Bungie it was basically exactly the same, minus the videos. Unless you are generally doing something technical or some cool trick that can speed up workflow there generally is nothing for an artist to document. And so most dont need to document anything. Although texture artists send around documented crap in email relating to shader stuff every now and then.
and ha yeah its 1 modeler and 1 texture artist for each level. for some levels that have very large "wides" or huge vistas, sometimes another artist will handle that as it is almost a level in of itself.