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Adobe Illustrator for texture maps

SnakeDoctor
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SnakeDoctor polycounter lvl 14
Hey everyone,

With the new semester starting in the Spring I just found out that my school will be using Adobe Illustrator for Graphic Design Tools.


-Course Description

"This course introduces students to computer-based graphic design tools and their use within the context of simulation and game design. Topics include texture creation, map creation, and introduction to advanced level graphic design techniques. Upon completion, students should be able to competently use and explain industry-standard graphic design software"


I might be mistaken, but I cannot recall anyone using Adobe Illustrator for the creation of texture maps. Is this even possible with it being a vector based program or is it just another tool that is used in the industry. Any information would be helpful.

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  • glottis8
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    glottis8 polycounter lvl 9
    They use illustrator a lot in the creation of samurai jack or Dexters lab. To give that countour and shapes. I know because i worked for the Jim Henson company, creating textures and models for a cartoon of theirs that they wanted in 3d, and that's all they used to create their shapes and linewwork. It's always nice to know different programs too.

    samurai_jack2.jpg
  • SnakeDoctor
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    SnakeDoctor polycounter lvl 14
    Ok, I suppose the real reason for my concern is that I see Photoshop as an industry standard, and although I know its helpful to know many programs, I want to learn the heavily used programs first like 3dsmax, z brush, Photoshop etc. Even if they teach AI I still plan on learning PS though.

    Also you said that was a cartoon. What about game engines such as UDK? Do they support vector graphics?
  • Tom Ellis
    In my experience, Illustrator is good for one thing, and one thing only... Vector images. I know I'm kinda stating the obvious, since that's exactly what it's designed to do, but it's not a lot of good for anything else.

    It's great for logo's, posters, anything that needs to be resized without loss of resolution etc, and also for illustration and bits to be used for 2D animation like Glottis mentioned above.

    However, for game art purposes it's kinda limited, but it does have its uses.

    Obviously you're not gonna be creating your whole texture maps with Illustrator, simply because it's vector based and not raster. But there are times when Illustrator will excel for bits and pieces, for example;

    Signage - Road signs, banners etc that you might put in your scene. For example, I made a scene a while back that had some crates/boxes lying around, as well as some advertisement banners, and used Illustrator to quickly create logo's/designs to be put on those which I then brought into Photoshop as a Smart Object.

    Typography - If you want to add custom text to something, Illustrator is pretty great for messing with typefaces.

    So in short, it has it's uses, but you're gonna be spending far more time in a raster based app. Also, anything that you might use Illustrator for that I've mentioned above, Photoshop can do too, not as efficiently in some cases, but it has the tools there.
  • SnakeDoctor
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    SnakeDoctor polycounter lvl 14
    In my experience, Illustrator is good for one thing, and one thing only... Vector images. I know I'm kinda stating the obvious, since that's exactly what it's designed to do, but it's not a lot of good for anything else.

    It's great for logo's, posters, anything that needs to be resized without loss of resolution etc, and also for illustration and bits to be used for 2D animation like Glottis mentioned above.

    However, for game art purposes it's kinda limited, but it does have its uses.

    Obviously you're not gonna be creating your whole texture maps with Illustrator, simply because it's vector based and not raster. But there are times when Illustrator will excel for bits and pieces, for example;

    Signage - Road signs, banners etc that you might put in your scene. For example, I made a scene a while back that had some crates/boxes lying around, as well as some advertisement banners, and used Illustrator to quickly create logo's/designs to be put on those which I then brought into Photoshop as a Smart Object.

    Typography - If you want to add custom text to something, Illustrator is pretty great for messing with typefaces.

    So in short, it has it's uses, but you're gonna be spending far more time in a raster based app. Also, anything that you might use Illustrator for that I've mentioned above, Photoshop can do too, not as efficiently in some cases, but it has the tools there.





    Thanks for the information. You pretty much confirmed with what I was thinking. Hopefully the teacher lets me deviate from some the course work that he is going to assign. I tend to be a self learner anyway.
    "Want a degree go to College, Want to learn go to a Library" :\
  • glottis8
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    glottis8 polycounter lvl 9
    True... i spend 99% of my time using photoshop. I only use illustrator when i need some concept art done and its a cartoony repetitive style... and sometimes not even then will i use it. But hey... it's a plus on your resume, and you can do freelance graphic design if you are low on work.
  • Tom Ellis
    One more minor thing, I notice the little excerpt you quoted in your OP, it talks about 'game design'

    Now I know a lot of colleges don't really know what game 'design' is and call their course game 'design' even though it covers things like art/sound/writing/design, but Illustrator can be a great tool for quickly throwing together some shapes when concepting levels. In fact I just watched the DVD that came with the Cataclysm CE, and I think in the Retrospective section, they talked about how their original design ideas for zones/levels were 'Rough Illustrator shapes made into maps'. In that sense, Illustrator is great for effectively 'greyboxing' in 2D, just dropping a bunch of shapes/curves, and moving them around, resizing to your hearts content.

    So another potential use I guess.
  • Firebert
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    Firebert polycounter lvl 15
    i really don't know why anyone would think of using illustrator for texture maps. to laydown vectors to import into another app, or create clean stencils. but fully realized textures for 3d application? no.

    it is a vector based program and handles rasters in the worst way possible. if anyone mentions "placing images", then they should be shot by a squad of penises. there are other vector programs that can do everything illustrator can do times five million. want to round/fillet a corner? well illustrator can't even do that... it has to "fake" it with a filter. so you never get the actual vector of a filleted corner. there's also no realtime feedback... A HUGE downside. you can MMB drag a lot in PS for realtime feedback of transform adjustments, etc. everything in illustrator operates on a "preview" checkbox and manual numerical inputs. (sorry for the rant).

    C22: didn't read all your post, but you are correct... it's good for really only vector images. they've made some tools better over the years... but seriously... there is a lot that it could do well that it just simply doesn't. it is highly inaccurate at small sizes. snapping is a bitch. you are restricted to a maximum canvas size of 227 something odd inches, which is absurd. the list goes on and on. the more it grows, it feels more and more like a slap dash hack job program. cool new features that are not fully realized.

    i use illustrator almost every day of the work week, and i cringe everytime i click the shortcut.

    hopefully you'll get into InDesign which is becoming the new standard.
  • Imajus
    You must be taking classes in the NC community college system. I've taught this class before, but at Wake Tech in Raleigh. And we taught Photoshop. Sounds like a bad choice on your school's part.
  • Arcanox
    To be honest, I'd rather take an Adobe Illustrator class than a Photoshop class. Photoshop is something you can basically teach yourself at the age of 15 and there are a bazillion tutorials out there that will show you everything you need to know.

    Illustrator is something that will probably take some time to grasp, and while the applications are really limited, there's definitely some really good stuff you can take away from using that program.

    Just citing a specific example, but I know guys who do texture maps for Hockey games use Illustrator quite a bit to get all the detailed linework and stitching patterns correct on equipment like this:
    goaliepad.jpg

    I guess it's overall applications are limited, but every now and again I find some good use for Illustrator to mockup some shapes or do up some really nice masks for zbrush. I wouldn't knock it entirely.
  • Imajus
    I agree Arcanox, only thing is what most likely is going to happen is it will be a texture making / Photoshop class, but using Illustrator instead, not an Illustrator class. Which isn't nearly as valuable imo.
  • SnakeDoctor
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    SnakeDoctor polycounter lvl 14
    Well the course description say's that they will be teaching texture creation but I heard from the instructor that he plans on doing User interfaces for some reason. Guess I will be in the back of the class doing my own work/tuts again. Also yes I do go to school in North Carolina. Central Piedmont Community College for right now. Wish I could say great things about it, but the program is far from good. I'm just trying to arm myself with some knowledge before I confront my instructor about me being able to learn texture creation on my own. In the end I would prefer it that way. :poly124:
  • Tom Ellis
    I heard from the instructor that he plans on doing User interfaces

    YES! I can't believe I forgot to mention that in my post but yeah, Illustrator is great for UI too, for obvious reasons.

    IIRC Scaleform uses Flash, which again works with vectors, so some vector training would be useful there too.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Im going against the grain here and saying Illustrator is a very good program to know. In fact let me give a quick example. Im having to make fake company packaging and logos as textures for items in game. Like books, cereal boxes, fast food.

    I can much quicker get a basic design together and into Photoshop for cleanup from Illustrator then create from scratch in Photoshop.

    It also helps with textures like very specific details like stitching, warning graphics, etc. Things that rely on a precise layout and clean edges.

    It also helps with making clean very exact concept art that is easier to import. As you can import vector art into many 3d programs allowing you in some cases to loft or extrude as need be to get your character or items started.

    Now, can it be used alone? Unless your doing a very particular style like a cartoon game. No, you still will need to import into Photoshop to take it all to a level of realism and grit.

    Does Photoshop have some of the same tools? Yes. The path tools do mimick some of Illustrators functionality, but you arent getting the same control or properties you can get with Illustrator.

    Finally, Illustrator if imported into PS as a svg? or vector layer. Can be resized bigger or smaller without effecting the dpi/crispness of the graphic. You can also double click on that layer to reopen that graphic in Illustrator to edit if need be.

    I would suggest all 3d Artist at least give it a shot in trying to get Illustrator at some point into their workflow. It can save them time on very particular things. Convincing your lead to buy if for the team though.. Good Luck!
  • acc
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    acc polycounter lvl 18
    My experience has been that unless you are doing extremely high-end vector work, Flash is much faster and easier to use. You get the pen tool but you can also drag lines and curves and it has a proper fill tool.

    Illustrator is archaic, clunky, obtuse, the shortcuts and panels don't match other adobe programs very well, and it's got a billion finnicky annoying details you need to learn before it becomes remotely usable for even basic tasks.

    As far as "Adobe Illustrator for texture maps" that's absolutely insane. Texture maps have texture. Texture is not a strength of vectors. Vectors are worth learning to work with anyways, cause they are very good at certain things, but texture maps are definitely not one of them.
  • Imajus
    Well the course description say's that they will be teaching texture creation but I heard from the instructor that he plans on doing User interfaces for some reason. Guess I will be in the back of the class doing my own work/tuts again. Also yes I do go to school in North Carolina. Central Piedmont Community College for right now. Wish I could say great things about it, but the program is far from good. I'm just trying to arm myself with some knowledge before I confront my instructor about me being able to learn texture creation on my own. In the end I would prefer it that way. :poly124:
    Yeah the SGD program in NC is still new at most schools and not so good. It's hard to find industry professionals to teach for a variety of reasons, the biggest hurdle seems to be finding some one with experience and an advanced accredited degree. The program where I teach is ok. We have a few industry guys teaching myself included.
    Good thing is it's cheap, a fraction of the cost of an art school and you get transferable college credits. Just do a lot of outside practicing and stuff and it'll work out. I wish I could get some of my students reading game art forums.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Here is an example of what I mean with using illustrator for Texture maps.

    casino-party-blackjack-tables2.jpg

    Now, you can make the desktop graphic in illustrator, Import into your photoshop texture as a vector layer. Move, copy, resize without adding much to file size of the photoshop and keeping all the original detail. Then on top of those vector layers you can mask and ad the grit to make it look like a used surface.

    If you tried to make those graphics in photoshop, first it would take longer and secondly you would have a larger file size as the would have to be rasterized levels and copied. You also couldnt resize much without effecting the quality.
  • maze
    Hey I actually think illustrator is an awesome program, Ive been using it for some years in graphic design projects and I find it to be an awesome tool imo, but like any other app is a "tool" (not a magic app) and thats what a lot of people don't seem to realize.... each app have a main target application field, but you can derive, as nothing is set in stone.

    saying that flash is better than illustrator, just shows lack of knowledge, both are awesome
    apps, and can surely share some capabilities, but what about doing a large print project, managing color pantones for several types of printers? For sure flash wont cut...and its not supposed to, is great at what it does which is animation/web.

    As for doing textures with illustrator I dont see why not, it can actually be quite interesting, if you follow the same principles for hand painted textures in photoshop. Its just a different way of doing things. Maybe not the most mainstream way of doing textures but hey why not give it a try, is not for production work anyways so its good time to explore new things I believe.
  • SnakeDoctor
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    SnakeDoctor polycounter lvl 14
    Imajus wrote: »
    Yeah the SGD program in NC is still new at most schools and not so good. It's hard to find industry professionals to teach for a variety of reasons, the biggest hurdle seems to be finding some one with experience and an advanced accredited degree. The program where I teach is ok. We have a few industry guys teaching myself included.
    Good thing is it's cheap, a fraction of the cost of an art school and you get transferable college credits. Just do a lot of outside practicing and stuff and it'll work out. I wish I could get some of my students reading game art forums.


    Trust me I have tried telling other classmates about Polycount, Eat3d, Gnomon, Game Artisans even. People just feel like playing games all day lol. Its not different here either.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Looks to me like the class is geared towards 2d games, not 3d. If so then Illustrator and Flash are the top tools. I think that whole part of the game dev field gets forgotten in a 3d-centric forum like this.
  • Vailias
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    Vailias polycounter lvl 18
    Ok I haven't read all the responses, too hard on the small iPhone screen, but any of you guys really owe it to yourselves to check out illustrator cs5, but bring your tablet. :)

    Some of it's new features are incredibly awesome for drawing and sketching, but with aspects of ammodeling workflow, ala point movement and such. I'm actually wanting to take it for a texturing test drive soon. It's not Photoshop, for sure, but it does have a lot more fluidity and power than it did in the early and pre cs days.

    For 2d games and web applications it also has a new per pixel snap function so you can keep crisp edges and lines in your pixel art.
  • teaandcigarettes
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    teaandcigarettes polycounter lvl 12
    Trust me I have tried telling other classmates about Polycount, Eat3d, Gnomon, Game Artisans even. People just feel like playing games all day lol. Its not different here either.

    Haha, tell me about that :P I'm taking one of those Game Design courses myself. While it is my ultimate goal to work as a game designer it's nearly impossible to break into as one; that's the reason why I have picked up art. Unfortunately, not all of my colleagues are aware that getting additional skills will let you land a job more easily. Sorry for derailing the thread.
  • kaptainkernals
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    kaptainkernals polycounter lvl 12
    Personally I love Illustrator, do a lot of printed stuff so it's really a must. And as Maze said it's just a tool. Which often falls down to personal preference. Some like Maya others Max.

    I do a lot of designing in illustrator, and bringing my AI files into PS as smart objects to add smaller details like texture and or grit.

    This also comes down to a persons preferred way of working, I feel something like Illustrator is a valuable app to know and understand, just as flash is a valuable to know and understand. Some may prefer how flash treats vectors to how illustrator does. I personally prefer illustrator, probably because I was exposed to it and it's tools before those of flashes.

    Illustrator has also improved a lot, having used CS2 - didn't much like that one, CS3 was quite nice, then CS4 and CS5 came along and changed quite a few things, had to get used to it again, but they added features allowing for more accuracy when designing with the edition of snapping, and sped up my work flow by improving the pathfinding tool and love CS4 / CS5 illustrator.

    In the end of the day, it's about your personal preference and workflow.
  • Zander85
    one nice thing you can do with illustrator is use the pen tool to create curves and then you can import them into 3ds max as shapes and then use the shapes to help you model. (this is great for creating nice archways also creating 3d text).
  • rumblesushi
    I used to work as a graphic artist doing detailed hand drawn vector stuff, and Illustrator's pen tool is the best pen tool bar none.

    It's nice, fast, easy to use. Photoshop's is worse and clunkier, and Flash's is also not as nice.

    Illustrator's pencil tool is also quite good if you want a less precise look for something.

    However the rest of the program is awful and clunky, and it makes it mind boggling difficult to just erase or edit parts of finished artwork.
  • kenpimentel
    Does anyone think the workflow of importing AI, SWF or SVG files into max/maya as vectors and then rendering them at arbitrary resolution a useful feature? The vectors could also be animated or controlled by script. This would save you from manual rasterization and give you more complex control in max/maya. Just wondering.
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