Is Buying Black Ops supporting the Evil Empire?
polycounter lvl 17
I didn't want to derail the other thread with this. Just curious on what people think. I don't know what happened at Infinity Ward. I'm sure only the parties involved know the real details...and most people are just guessing. The conjecture seems to be that activision hung the devs out to dry- even after said devs made them lots and lots of money.
So forgetting all the Activision/ Infinity Ward mumbo jumbo, If you knew a company that treated their devs like crap, would you still buy their product- even if said product was an amazing game.
It would be nice to hear the rationale from devs, and those trying to jump on that same boat.
So forgetting all the Activision/ Infinity Ward mumbo jumbo, If you knew a company that treated their devs like crap, would you still buy their product- even if said product was an amazing game.
It would be nice to hear the rationale from devs, and those trying to jump on that same boat.
Replies
Take for example Lucas Arts and how they treated the devs from The Force Unleashed and lately with TFU:2. It's sad to hear that after pouring your heart and soul out on these titles that the entire teams are cut loose to what? Pad the profit margins?
I know sometimes it's hard to justify having a full dev team hanging around when there are no projects to work on or when it's super early on in dev because a lot of people are sitting around.
As far as IW goes and that whole situation. We still haven't learned the full details and possibly never will and like you said only the parties involved know the truth and what really happened that led to the situation.
I plan on picking the game up just like i plan on picking up TFU:2 because even though there may be some history I still want to support the devs and the products they did make and play the games.
They should have gone down the Jedi Knight 2 route.
It's good to support Treyarch, but the hype for this game is pretty much way past the ridiculous line for where it should reasonably be.
err, back closer to topic: It's supporting activision but it's also supporting treyarch, who we probably don't want to be out of jobs.
Out of curiosity, to those who do refuse to buy games published by a certain company, do you also refuse to buy products made in factories with far worse working conditions than any game dev studio or do you only do that for things that directly affect or interest you?
I'm mostly concerned with game dev, because it's what I do.
Pretty sure if I did that I'd be living in like a monk.
I sure as hell wouldn't own any Apple products.
If i was running Activision i would fire those two guys in a second doesn't matter if they made "call of duty" the only reason they were able to develop that franchise was because activision paid them to make it.
it sucks that they were fired but going behind your publishers back like that is real shady especially for studio heads.
but i do think that not giving out the royalties to the devs was just a way of retaining some of the talent that was leaving the studio, and was equally as shady
but will i buy Black ops? hell yes!!!!!!
If you don't buy it as a way to hurt the publisher you also hurt the developer and they'll never build up enough cash to actually break away. That is if whats left of IW wants independence.
If you buy it, you give the publisher a big thumbs up and the OK to keep on being cockmongers... But ae brings up a good point it was kind of shady looking to jump ship like that, especially after they did it to EA a few years ago. But we really don't know the whole story so who knows... /shrug
Will I buy it, probably not, but that's mostly because I'm not hyper excited about realistic shooters. I pretty much burned out on those around CoD1-2.
I'd worked for an Activision studio before, and I personally think they're one of the better publishers to work for. And I would gladly work for them again.
Sure their CEO might come across poorly to the public, but in all honestly, I don't see a bi-annual 1000+ people layoff.
I also don't hear too many stories of putrid working conditions for Activision employees, where they demand 12+ hours a day and mandatory weekends.
Also the cool thing they do, is have a 2nd party development culture, so there really allow these studios to maintain their own development culture (rather than... send in the suits to completely change everything to EXACTLY how they want).
Seriously. What is everyone's beef with Activision? Yeah, the game media paints a target on them because they're #1, much like they did with EA 3 years ago. If it's because of the Infinity Ward fiasco, let the courts decide on that. If what they did was completely in the wrong, I'm sure they will receive ample compensation.
I get your sentiment, and if I honestly felt like boycotting a product would result in changes, then I would do it. But, if I'm one of a dozen people boycotting a product, it will have no effect, and I will be the only one who loses in the deal.
Fuck the developer. If they choose to go make that game with that publisher or worse. Allowed themselves to be bought up. Further. People then joining these institutions after seeing what is done to the previous workers...
I have very limited sympathy. That line about how the developer will suffer as well does not effect me.
So no. I wont. Will my purchase make any difference? Unlikely. However I wont have to deal with the guilt of supporting the corruption already shown. I will also "put my money where my mouth is" which is probably the best any of us can do from the outside. So we can feel justified in pointing out the injustices we see.
If you don't like the practices yet continually buy the product without question. Your just helping what you feel is wrong.
Oh I know. No one is innocent. But there is that point where you just go bullshit.
So as per Yozora. As much as possible when I have a choice.
I'm not going to buy Call of Duty: Black Ops. But it's not because I want to fight "the man." I still haven't played the first Modern Warfare game. I'm barely invested in the Call of Duty franchise. I suppose that if you are interested in objecting to Activision's business practices, abstaining from Black Ops would be the best way to send them a message. The most aggressive action you can take against any company is to simply not purchase their goods.
At this point, it surprises me when people don't expect Activision to act like corporate overlords. They are now "The Man" of the video game industry. If you want to object to them, then don't buy their games. Do keep in mind that there are always other "the man" companies who are ready and willing to take their place. The power and prestige that big business provides has a way of changing even the most well-meaning idealists into corporate money-machines.
Yeah...it seems a bunch of publishers are guilty of treating devs like disposable cameras.
I don't like this kind of games of 3 hours of playing, and like it's always the same i won't buy it.
err, and wtf with foxconn? what's up if we buy Gigabyte or Asus? My computers are not 100% chinese ¬¬
Something like that.
We all do what we have to do. To achieve stability, happiness, whatever it is we're after. I've worked for several companies/various sources of employment in the past that didn't deserve my time, lowest of the low type of shit. I've been a high school janitor, where kids and adult staff alike literally SHIT all over my day's work all the time without a care in the world. I've worked jobs for bars and restaurants that left my hands entirely black with oil and grease only to watch the managers make drug deals with kids out back behind my dish room. By agreeing to work there, I was making them money, I was keeping them going.
And no it wasn't great, knowing that my time went to send these assholes home to their nice houses so they could cheat on their wives and continue to treat their employees like total shit. But you do what you need to. And when I was able, I stopped and moved on. And I didn't hold anything against the people who would say, come and eat at the bar - thereby supporting my employers. They were just tired and needed an outlet to relax, no fault of theirs.
Buying shit is the same way. I don't buy a ton of games, Call of Duty hasn't interested me since the first one, but if it was something that would help my wife or myself relax and enjoy ourselves, yes I'd buy it. Because sometimes you need to just sit at home and shoot someone in the face. The developers do what they can, the publishers do what they can, I do what I can. Sometimes shit sucks and sometimes it works out. I try to consider the larger ramifications of my actions, and try not to be part of the problem when I can - but sometimes, you can't.
Don't really know what more you can ask of someone.
The capacitors probably contain minerals that were mined in the Congo, the atrocities that are going down there rank as some of the worst in human history. I recently heard an interview with a woman who's house was attacked by rebels, they shot her husband, chopped her leg off, cut it into 8 pieces, cooked it on the fire and forced her children to eat it (they shot her oldest son who refused).
time to build a shack in the woods and grow your own food, that's the only way to know for sure.
http://gizmodo.com/5678732/exclusive-look-where-the-workers-who-made-your-iphone-sleep-at-night
Low-odor: No one is saying you can't be upset. I don't consider it hypocritical. I don't like seeing employees get abused in any industry. I just don't see the point of protesting something that isn't going to change, especially if it's only limited to a few hundred people protesting.
Same with just buying food or clothing. Dont trick yourself into believing that the way Activision treated Infinity Ward is even on the same level as what happens to people in third world country's where you cloths are made or your food is picked.
ehem, if we talk about clothing what?
And now i ask, who has the blame? the big companies? or the chinese government? we as consumers? There are too many companies doing the same in all the sectors, almost all is "made in china" now, and those laboral conditions are like the "standard" there. This is not something new, and as a consumer, i can't do anything except to buy the best for my budget. Other people will care a shit if i can't reach the end of the month with my salary, and i won't care a shit if a product is "manufactured" by a company like Asus, Zotac, or Activision...
If i need hardware to work, wtf! if all is "made in china", how i work if i follow the stupidity of not buying chinese products? ¬¬
Now is with activision, but what with Ubi?
All my mobos have capacitators and too many components made in Japan, quality components. I really don't care about the raw materials they used and their origin. With my "no buy" i can't change anything, give or take. There always will be someone taking advantage of "chinese workers".
I feel all this very silly. If you like something, just buy it, we only have one life and it's very short.
No other factors.
Soon China will be outsourcing to America anyway.
That's just me, though.
No one is perfect. But there is a difference when you do your best not to get products made from places like Foxconn. Sometimes you have no choice if you need whatever is made.
But to attempt to say either or. Period. Is dishonest, very narrow minded viewpoint, and allows you to excuse anything you purchase.
Hell if you want to get into details. We shouldn't be buying any electronics of any nature beyond the environmental damage. The precious metals and minerals used in them can come from corrupt governments that even in some places use basically slave labor to obtain.
There is a difference though in purchasing straight out a product made 95% of the precious material for just looks/value. And a product that uses small amounts of the material to work. You still can send a message buy not buying the precious material because its precious and only buying what you need. You also can research if your products company is trying to obtain the raw materials from less corrupt sources (which some now are).
There is a difference between just buying blindly to only what you seek at the cheapest price point and buying what you need with some forethought. If you cannot understand. Or more, do not want to understand the difference (because it will show your own egoism) then there is no discussion to be had.
No. Your excuse is just an excuse to not change.
And again. YOU CAN attempt to watch what happens in these two. Or you can just blindly purchase whatever you want and use the above that someone somewhere else has it worse. Its just an excuse to do nothing. It's all about narcissism.
I was just trying to bring up the point that since 95% of people just sit idly by when these kind of business practices happen then why would you question buying a game that dosnt even come close to the horrible practices that are inflicted on third world country workers.
If you are going to buy one and then question another just because you are more personally related you are just being hypocrite. If you find it bad enough that Activision milks the shit out of its games until there terrible and over saturated that you cant buy it then you should find it repulsive slave labor makes the cloths you wear why you chat on internet websites about how bad Activision is.
And the worlds not black and white. Its not either or. I already addressed this. You do the best you can and make as best an informed decision you can.
We all have to choose our battles. Since this is our field. I believe its even more imperative that we take measures. We also are not a third world country. This "argument" you give is a transparent as the people saying that no one should complain because someone somewhere else always has it worse. Just because your neighbor doesn't give a shit. Doesn't mean you don't have to either IF it bothers you.
You know what? They are both excuses. If this doesn't bother you that's fine. If something does you take measures when you can to try to minimize your damage. Sometimes its not possible. But at least thinking about it when deciding a purchase does at least address personally the problem. It doesn't solve it however. But thats not the point. The point is to make you THINK what your doing.
Hell your "logic" can be used on our environment. No matter what one does it will be affected. Hence don't bother worrying. When if you looked beyond your own needs you would see there are alternatives to lower your effect. Instead of that new car use the bus. etc.
Using hypocrisy is foolish for this. Hypocrisy can only work in a either or situation.
Another way to think about this is your telling anyone who does attempt at least some sort of compromise with their purchases or lifestyle to address one matter or another. They not only are doing nothing, they are being hypocritical by purchasing still. The only way would to frankly live in the woods or kill themselves to have no effect.
Then you run into. If they did the above. They no longer would have any say in the matter. Nothing would change and no one would at least be questioning the purchase.
Hence again. Why saying its all hypocrisy is just an excuse. If the shit doesn't bother the person one way or another they wouldn't even bother attempting to call the person a hypocrite. I think personally the people who do attempt the hypocrite excuse are just feeling more self conscious then they let on and don't like people raising sticky points. Better to stay in ignorant happiness. Then have to feel the guilt of sometimes having to make compromises.
You also do not have to get your clothes via third world if you really wanted to fwiw. (Why I dont own a PC shirt yet cause we dont have a choice for American Apparel [though the site does offer them])
So for the ADHD which is most of us.
It cant be hypocritical when you have no real choice if not participating means you have no say in any regards to what happens. It also cannot be called hypocrisy by attempting to compare to other areas of commercialism. Its a straw man as it compares to a larger scope of abuse from a different area when the focus was on one particular.
But let me comment on the your position that one should think about the decisions they make. I totally and whole heatedly agree with this and always do so.
And for this situation here is my thinking behind the matter.
If you want to buy an Activision game like Black Ops, buy it. Activision like many businesses is out to make a lot of money, and for Activision they enjoy making gobs and gobs of it. The thing is though that Activision dose nothing illegal, they dont hurt there works in anyway, they are not unfairly treating anyone. Yes I feel that they shitty business practices where they judge the worth and value of a studio and its employees on its ability to make a game that can be milked for the long haul but you know what? Thats just business, and for Activison it is clear that its good business.
Some people are now thinking, hmmm should I buy this game for Activison? The company that brought about the distruction of the Infinity Ward that created COD and made it into the jugernaught that it is today? Activison, the same company that dismissed projects like Ghostbusters and Brutal Legends because they were not seen as franchies that can be milked year after year? No some would say as boycotting the games Activison publishes would help to fight off these kinds of buisness practices.
Well fact of the matter is that it wont hurt Activison nearly as much as the studios developing these games. Activison has a ton of studios and a good number of franchise that it owns and is currently milking out great profits from. Even when they lose a gem of a studio like Infinity Ward they have many more to take its place. If need be they will create whole new studios like Sledgehammer to fill the void that IW left. See the thing is most gamers dont know who IW is or what in the world a Treyarch is. They know what Call of Duty is and that is what Activison sells. They sell Call of Duty, the names attached to the end of the game and the studio that developed the game is arbitrary to them, its just the next in the series. They are selling a multi million dollar name that has nothing to do with who crated them.
The reason it hurts the developers far more then the publisher is if no one is buying the new Black Ops game you think that will stop Activison from making more and more COD games? No, they will just eventually get rid of the developer and pass the mantel off to another team. If they dont see your studio as a viable source for a good, steady income then they will put your team on the chopping block. Shady and slimy it may be, but illegal? No. Wrong? No. For them its just good business.
So yes I agree that one should think about the purchasing decisions they make. This is my thinking on the matter whether you agree or disagree, its cool.
Support the games you know you will enjoy as that is really the only reason more will be made.
Yes. The developer does get the short end of the bargain which they then pass unto the workers. I wont deny it. But using that as an excuse to still purchase the game where you otherwise wouldnt have doesnt work per the above. You still if you not only not purchase but make it known why. Depending on your social group. Have a chance of creating some sort of mark as a group.
Beware the Empathy Karma Fairy
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Someone at work made a great statement about this whole thing. If you make a great game- regardless of big money ass clowns treating devs like Kleenex- That game is going to stick with you for the rest of your career...and it is going to open up more opportunities for the devs that created it..that in itself is worth supporting the game....This was probably stated a few posts back, by Jesse and a few others..so duh..type slower and use smaller words...Supporting good games is a good thing. Is Black Opps a good game..dont know?
I did say I felt bad though right? and and, in extreme cases it does matter, times when I can actually make a difference
Never really got the public idea of empathy, it's like this thing you need to say you have, but not really have. Not saying that's how everyone is, I know a lot of people who genuinely care about most things going bad that they can see (either via news or their own eyes) and more power to them for it, but this whole "Did you know? It's bad yeah, you should feel bad because of it" is... messing with my groove.
Also I make up for it by buying more indie games
There is no such thing as selflessness. But anyhoo. I don't think anyone is doing such. I mean they can attempt to tell you to feel bad. But they cannot make you; we make our own choices.
I can agree that it's in poor taste to release a super popular war game on such a day though.
It's not just one country you know, it's worldwide. And it's not a commercial holiday either.
I think it would of been fine it was on a typical "tues" game release.
Eh well, no one was harmed.
Anyway 3 Million gamer's already spoken with cash in hand.