okay, okay, how about this, your a commando in an army of giant, sentient penises, and you have to headbutt soldiers in the Boston terrier liberation front until they explode into a cloud of skittles, and then you have to catch the skittles before they hit the ground because then you would have spilled your seed upon barren ground, and and, uh yeah!
well c'mon man, you spent about 4-5 hours coming up with tag, I don't consider myself a designer and I usually spend weeks writing/iterating/perfecting game design ideas.
r_fletch_r: I think you're falling for the misconception that if an MMO isn't a massive blockbuster it's a failure. WOW is like Avatar, if your movie is profitable but doesn't beat the box office take of Avatar nobody considers it a failure. LOTRO was the number 2 MMO right behind WOW for a while. Now maintaining a staff of 300+ people is a different story.
Justin, is it really worth it anymore? He's obviously not taking this thread seriously anymore as shown by the penis game idea and the MJ Gif. He's either trolling us or he's really that naive and ignorant and is still set on a massive community made MMO. Either way, responding to him is a waste of time after 3 pages of this shit.
C'mon, guys, nobody ever learned a life lesson by being discouraged. You learn it by heading face first into the brick wall of game design and failing miserably (repeatedly).
I thought that was just what he's been doing so he's going for the EPIC fail instead of just a normal fail.
I've been tossing around the idea of doing an indie game myself, looking to invest about $10,000 into the project. (or less, lulz, just thinking of hiring some outsourcers to pad things a bit)
Which is a good idea if you don't go batshit insane, plan properly and stay realistic (NO MMO SHIT). We just about spent 15k on Warsoup now and we're only one month away from the vertical slice.
Justin, is it really worth it anymore? He's obviously not taking this thread seriously anymore as shown by the penis game idea and the MJ Gif. He's either trolling us or he's really that naive and ignorant and is still set on a massive community made MMO. Either way, responding to him is a waste of time after 3 pages of this shit.
I've been taking most of this seriously, and I think learning quite a bit. I applaud everyone's efforts in discussing this, albeit aggressively at times. I understand the anger my noobness can provoke.
The penis game idea was in response to Justin's analysis of my game design document, which I didn't like. The point of it being; just because you have an idea that is new and original doesn't mean its good, and just because it has elements we've seen before, doesn't mean its bad. If you blanket every video game ever made a spacewar clone because it has pixels, you're just some kind of hipster critic, and not really helpful. Critiquing:
Helpful: Something is wrong, maybe you should do this, add this? Subtract this?
Not Helpful: Shit sucks brah, give up, looks like cock.
My intentions as of right now are to make a small 2 month game (as per the suggestion of polycounters), and also work on the giant mmo project.
achillesian, I know how you feel; it's something I can relate to. Although I've been fortunate these last few years, it's taken an exceedingly long time for me to find a path I was happy with.
Please consider this advice, although not asked for. The answer to a string of failed smaller projects is not a huge projects, it's an ever smaller project.
I'll write more on this subject later as I've work to do now. But I assure you I know how you feel, and your best bet is to go smaller, not bigger.
ew it's a mac
the video I mean
Anyway now that I've read through, I agree that a large mmo project is just too much. Ach I'm a lot like you. I've wanted to be in the game industry for over a decade now and I'm working my ass off to get a degree and get through college and work on my portfolio. Feel free to search for SpartnII or SFThree9/[SF]Three9/SF-Three9 and see all my failed projects. I've tried leading several and it always ends up as a failure.
The problem with getting an idea going is convincing people they aren't wasting their time, and without having assets in an engine and working, 90% of anyone who could help you isn't going to even bother. Hell I even tried getting a sweet ass zelda'ish game going with some class mates, and they ended up being flakes (I blame this on the fact that they have no idea how intense the industry is, not that I know, but they think the 2 years we've been in our program is sufficient to get them to be great artists). I was furious to give up on the project, the story, idea, environment....everything we discussed and planned for that game was amazing; it didn't hurt me as much as canceling my Tiberian Eclipse mod, but I was pretty upset.
Anyway back to what I was saying, Ach you seem a lot like myself as far as the aspect of having great passion to want to do something damn good. If I'm right you don't want to make a stupid mod or game that's good but gets 10 downloads a year, you want to do something you can proudly put on your portfolio and maybe even get respect points from people just because you worked on such an amazing project.
Not to be negative, but unless you collect a super group of people like us together, it's nothing more than a dream. I personally don't agree with how you handled your responses to people like Justin and Cholden (and maybe that's also becuase I'm a nobody and they have name recognition lol ), but I think there critiques may have been a bit brash. I do, however, agree with their overall message. Go for something smaller and more reachable, and you will have my assistance as a character artist if you would have me
making to quickly, visually sum up the project, and for the kickstarter page once i make it. I have 2 people helping me model stuff so far btw, and more forum posts with concept art, lore etc.
Gamedev.net usually gets alot of it, so much infact that it became a comic a long time ago:
Take a look at something like infinity: quest for earth.
That's an mmo style project going on in the way you would imagine it, but the only reason it works is, the one main guy is a programmer and he can get everything done even would everyone leave him., infact he is the only one getting real things done.
Awright. You're neither a programmer, nor an artist and your game will be a combination of 4 games that literally hundreds of people have worked on. Hey, that's no big deal! There are these 4 games I like, I just combine all of them together (without having ever designed a shipped product before) and I'll for sure have a hit!
I like the part where you're saying: "So, everyone can do what I do, but what makes us special? Not my own skill of course, but OUR COMMUNITY!" - Are you out of your mind?
Sorry man, but you pretty much lost touch with reality.
Funny stuff, guess that comic was out before realmcrafter. Also I'm more like Timmy+1 because I can model, texture, sculpt, rig, animate, concept, compose, write, and design. Granted I'm not AAA level at any of these, I can do them good enough to make pretty much every part of this game minus the coding. I intend for the game to have a simpler look like zelda ww to make a wider variety of art submissions valid, but I've stated this before. Having said all that for maybe the hundredth time since I've started this lofty project, I also intend to learn some coding in unity. At least enough to get the singleplayer prototype working.
The more you go through this kind of a process as a developer, the better you become at scaling things down.
Minecraft wasn't designed to be simple just for giggles, it was chosen to be that way to make it possible for one guy to develop such a game.
Also: you are not a game designer until you've made a product that proves the very fact that you are, ideas aren't worth much at all, everyone has ideas.
And of everyone I know who has actually written functional mmo's they've been A: programmers, and B: people who take in what they can chew.
Edit: just imagine if I was a new artist, I had never finished a model in my entire life, and I write a post on this board where I start talking about my project, it'll be a scene full of buildings and characters, and then I start saying that it'll have the style of several of the best artists in the industry.
Experienced people will respond to me that I should start with something extremely simple, and learn the basics of modelling, and if I told them that I didn't think it was a good idea they would respond and say that I was insane.
Instead of using a small team which will fall apart, i'll use a MASSIVE TEAM
Do you seriously think that scaling a project up makes it easier to manage? If this was possible people with vastly more skill and experience managing projects would have cornered the market already.
Listening to everything from 1:55 'till the end...
I lol'd.
That whole thing about lots of people with "good" ideas coming together, and there being great ideas as a result? Nice in theory. Except you know, when the people with good ideas you're talking about are all inexperienced dreamers with their own idea of what the 1337est MMORPG would be like. I suppose if the resulting great ideas you're talking about is everyone getting frustrated and the project resulting in a massive failure, then it's ok.
Also the whole "every reader, a writer - every art lover, an artist", etc.
Again, I get the idea. Sounds nice, sure. But one of these days you'll have to ask yourself "So if every reader's a writer, what in the hell type of trash are tomorrow's readers going to be reading?" It's that type of mentality that's the reason blogs are so full of shit these days. And why fan fiction makes me want to kill myself.
I'll be honest I'm somewhat happy to see you continuing on with this. If it makes you happy, by all means pursue it. I'll also say, I appreciate you not getting too terribly bent out of shape over all the comments in direct opposition to the idea.
"Can I get some advice?"
"Sure, here's my informed advice for you."
"No. You're wrong, this is how it will happen."
rinse. repeat.
You're not serious. You like the idea of it all. Hell, I love the idea of being a lead singer in a huge rock band, getting crazy laid, and making millions. I mean...all they do is jot down a few words and make bank, right?! I have some words, I'll write them down...anyone have a lifetime of musical talent they could spare? It'll be awesome. btw...I've never written a song in my life...but that shouldn't matter.
The "penis idea" and popcorn gif threw away any shred of credibility you may have still had with this thread.
With that, I vote that a big ol' huge lock be thrown onto this thread. It's obvious, to me, that this person is a troll. If they're not a troll, they have no respect for this community or the industry at all.
Well with all the negativity against this idea. I think at the very least it's cool that you're attempting to do something productive with your time. A lot of people just sit around doing nothing and waste their lives away. Hopefully you're pushing past your current limitations and learning a lot of new skills right now.
If you want to be serious, try making a fun level in TF2, StarCraft 2, Little Big Planet, or any other game with a robust level Editor.
You can do that completely yourself.
If it's fun and you get noticed, you might get some artists/programmers to help you out with your next project that might be a tad more ambitious (like a Gears of War level with some unique AI, and Art).
If you succeed at that, you might land yourself a studio job and fast track yourself to make that MMO you always wanted, have credibility behind your ideas to turn the skeptical polycount community to help you, and you might just get that army of programmers to do your bidding if you can show you're the superstar you think you are.
So you either think it will never work, or you think it could work and that's why you labeled it as past tense. Or your from the future, in which case, congratulations.
You seem to think there is this vast inescapable gulf between the novice and the professional, which simply doesn't exist. When a 6 year old alters the boundaries for today's game of tag, he's a game designer. When Cliffy B. alters the amount of accuracy the Lancer has while blind-firing, hes a game designer.
Every single professional, every single popular, powerful person in their respective trade started out like everyone else; an admirer. And what's so different between a fanfic writer and Stephen King, they both write a lot, they both write fairly well, they both write about the same topics often. Maybe one just likes it more, or is in a position in which they can spend more time writing, or one just got lucky. There are so many tiny variables that gauge and initiate popularity and success, but its not some gulf, some abyss. If anything its just a simple boundary that could be labeled "luck".
There's probably someone on this forum right now that can sing as well as Bieber, and write just as good given the resources and studio time, but luck favored him instead.
Thanks for the encouragement at the end of your post.
Well maybe I'm just bad at networking, but I've yet to find anyone solid enough to complete a project with me. Both with me as the leader, or as just additional help. I've looked here, gamedev, craigslist...
I may have at first, but my project's concept has evolved into something greater. I want an art style and world design that easily allows players to contribute content, on a continual basis.
The difference between a professional and an amateur is that the professional knows how to get shit done.
There's a reason why people wanting to make 'community-made MMORPGs' is such a running gag, because it's by far the hardest thing to do in terms of gaming and amateurs like you with absolutely no production experience and no idea how much work is actually involved in getting shit done who also think they're 'special' because of their 'great ideas' always jump at this - yet, no one has ever completed anything like that, for a good reason.
Tell you what: If you can even show me one good, final asset that you produced using just the community, I'd already be impressed.
Everyone can see that you have a lot of passion - but you lack the professionalism to focus your time and energy on tasks that are achievable. That's why everyone tells you to start small. Because then you'll see how much "FUCK!" and "DAMN!" is involved in even getting a simple game done.
Anyway, I think you need to really run full speed against a wall and make some of your own experiences before you realize that what you want to do is to build the Chinese Wall all by yourself and you're asking people to contribute to an unpaid project like that just for your own satisfaction. It's like asking someone else to jerk you off for nothing in return. You just don't do that shit.
You seem to think there is this vast inescapable gulf between the novice and the professional, which simply doesn't exist. When a 6 year old alters the boundaries for today's game of tag, he's a game designer. When Cliffy B. alters the amount of accuracy the Lancer has while blind-firing, hes a game designer.
Every single professional, every single popular, powerful person in their respective trade started out like everyone else; an admirer. And what's so different between a fanfic writer and Stephen King, they both write a lot, they both write fairly well, they both write about the same topics often. Maybe one just likes it more, or is in a position in which they can spend more time writing, or one just got lucky. There are so many tiny variables that gauge and initiate popularity and success, but its not some gulf, some abyss. If anything its just a simple boundary that could be labeled "luck".
There's probably someone on this forum right now that can sing as well as Bieber, and write just as good given the resources and studio time, but luck favored him instead.
Thanks for the encouragement at the end of your post.
I'm sorry but i have to disagree massively with you here, particularly in the difference in pro vs amateur.
For one thing there is a massive gulf between the two.
Firstly a pro has years of experience behind him, secondly he has a team around with with years of experience, and finally he has technical directors and creative directors with a great deal more experience than himself. His work is regularly reviewed by said directors, he doesn't just model something and it makes its way into the game.
My experience may not be game based, but it is graphic design based, and having worked in a studio environment, studio environments are similar whether game or graphic based(having spoken to some game artists)
You get given a task, and there are regular reviews, where the CD will crit and give you direction, you're never working in an isolated environment.
Additionally with the access to the CD and TD, you are able to ask questions in areas you are unsure of, particularly areas pertaining to the project.
One thing to remember between an amateur and a pro, is the support structure in place, as stated above, an amateur will have a community to help him - if he listens. a Pro has his CD, TD and fellow artists to support and crit, and keep him on track.
The major difference between an amateur and a pro? A Pro gets paid, he has years of experience, he has a great deal of knowledge and understanding that an amateur in most cases, just doesn't possess.
And thomasmahler made quite a few points that I left out, that were very important, such as focus and knowing how to get the job done to deadline, they often don't have weeks to create an asset, they aren't given 4 years to make it. I mean it takes 3 years and 60 dedicated artists to make a single AAA title, that is just SP. How you imagine to make an MMO with artists in and out, in 4 years i don't understand
And as everyone here has probably experience, when you've really gotten in as a professional, you realize how little experienced you had back then, and you laugh at the stuff you did.
And then you suddenly notice that you're even then only halfway from being a super-professional.
You can only get the whole perspective when you've been there.
But if there was any single suggestion I would give, and which I guess everyone else would give, and probably have given already:
Why fizzle your dream out before you even attempt it? What's wrong with grandiose ideas that are unlikely to come true? It's kind of the American dream. If pieces of shit like FRED and Bieber can become uber popular and make millions why can't you? Are they better than you? No, probably not. The only way you're 100% guaranteed to fail is if you never try.
I have deeply, deeply, considered this. Mainly due to the Bioware insider guy podcast who talked about one of their designers getting hired just for making a few good NWN modules. I just have this strange gut feeling that it will get ignored, or brushed aside. I think my only real hope would be making something multiplayer that creates a whole new thread of gameplay, like that mod for wc3 DoTA or Counterstrike. And modifications like this seem like they are nearly new games entirely with the amount of coding that goes into them. And if I'm going to spend the time to mod a game that much, it might as well be my own game.
But, but, you're right, this is a very good option for me. And if everyone's right, and I'm wrong, and my own project doesn't take off, or if nobody ends up caring at all, I'll do what you've detailed.
Thanks JacqueChoi, and your Morrigan is F'ing awesome.
How about we take all the brainiac mathematicians crafting complex hedge fund algorithms and put them to work on things like aids and cancer, yeah, that sounds better.
Despite your rather base allegory in defining my situation, and what I'm asking of the community, I have a follow up. Some people suck dick because they like it. I'll make games and art until the day I die because I want to. Everyone has something they love doing so much, they'll do it for free, these are the people I'm looking for. So I guess if you were van Gogh you'd stop painting and go find a job after your first piece sold for less than you hoped for?
Interesting take, and some good inside insight. Polycount has functioned pretty well for me so far as the slap in the face every time I think I've made something good, and hadn't. But I think it is important for us as game artists to acknowledge the typical gamer doesn't notice subtle texture seams, inverted normals, and even clipping like we do. Would God of War 3 sold fewer copies if Kratos didn't have normal blending for each emotion on his face? Fuck no, the whole package looks good enough, and works.
Also I don't know where you're getting 4 years, I projected like 8.5 years in my little phase by phase schedule thing on an earlier page.
Failure:thumbup:
Nobody ever helps me, I sit alone in my room for 4 years and make the game myself, get a shit-ton more portfolio pieces than I expected, I have a game under my belt that runs, that I made. I finish my degree. I have a chance at getting a job.
quite apart from the overwhelming technical issues that mean YOU CAN'T DO THIS (but i'm not getting into that), you're really NOT selling it. The imagined success of this thing is based around one thing only - that it's a community-built game. Why the hell would the community want to join you based on your marketing efforts so far?
lets take a couple of simple issues that are going to put off pretty much everyone who's contributions would be otherwise useful. I'm sure others will chip in with more :
It's got one of those fucking awful scrabble-bag names, meaningless and generic but with this nasty whiff of pomposity, like it wants to allude to something really deep and mysterious. Crimson Haze? What the hell is that? A take on Purple Haze? Who do you think you are, Hendrix? Or is it named after a colorectal cancer patients fart? Eh? Why do i want to join a project where even the brand name has been plucked randomly from thin air with no further thought to how it portrays the project, eh? Why? Think it through. Exhibit A.
Whats that video about? All it seems to be to me is a amateurish, clunky, badly edited visualistion of the blurb you've already written down IN WORDS on the website. Words i can read at my own pace without massive great big empty pauses in the middle and dialog boxes popping up. What's it for? To get your intentions across to people who can't read? They'll be useful for your project i'm sure. Or are you hoping to take it viral? Oh, it'll get shared and punted about for a bit all right. But for the wrong reasons. If you want to somehow (care to share?) drum up contributions using this video, it has to be infinitely more professional. Or they'll laugh at you. Exhibit B.
Okay Eld, outline exactly what I should make, and the definitive progression from where I am now, to "super-professional" game designer.
He already did, he said "START SMALL". Do you want him to write you a complete step by step guide to make YOUR game for YOU?
There is no "definitive progression", but making a small game, mod, map or even just a single asset is a step in the right direction for sure.
By the way I fully support your goal. The best way to learn is from experience, and since you aren't taking in everyone else's experiences you'll have to just try it yourself.
I really hope you succeed, but if you don't, at least you could share your experiences to the next guy who wants to make a MMO for free.
Also, "too big to fail" doesn't really make sense in this context. Actually a lot of your logic doesn't really make sense to me, but I like it.
Bit of an expansion on what danr said: If you want to actually attract people to this then I'd suggest you try to avoid advertising the fact that you have no idea what you're doing and pretty much nothing to show.
As it is you've got three times as many forums as you have posts to fill them, not a shred of game design documented, and you seem to have invested all of your effort into building a website and promoting your otherwise non-existent project on youtube. Even if they are enthralled enough by the idea to not notice it's shaped suspiciously like the Hindenburg, they're going to look at your site and think your project is dead on arrival.
Big projects that are just starting require a lot of smoke and mirrors in order to build interest. Mockup screenshots, a well designed website with an actual domain name, and some GOOD concept art go a long way here. Try approaching people directly, rather than announcing your misconceptions about game development in public venues while people with actual production experience sit there going "uhh here's all the shit you're doing wrong and why" while you refute them with "No! /popcorn" and expect people to flock to your idea of their own accord.
Don't put your forums online until you've actually got something to put in them and consolidate all of your forums into one until you actually have enough posts to warrant dividing them. One forum with 200 posts makes a community look a lot more active than 70 forums with 3 each.
You seem to think there is this vast inescapable gulf between the novice and the professional, which simply doesn't exist. When a 6 year old alters the boundaries for today's game of tag, he's a game designer. When Cliffy B. alters the amount of accuracy the Lancer has while blind-firing, hes a game designer.
If a 6-year-old friend of mine brings me cough medicine when I'm in bed with the flu, that doesn't make him a doctor. Heck, not even a pharmacist. If a kid adds up his pocket money and sees if he has enough for a new toy, that doesn't make him a bookkeeper. If someone manages changes a lightbulb, that doesn't make him an electrician or an engineer.
Let's not disrespect the profession of being a "game designer" by ignoring the many years of study, skill, experience, hard work and professionalism that earned them the job title, okay?
Just kinda curious, how long would it take to learn enough programing to make a simple game? Im not talking like pong simple, maybe something like a small platformer. something with 3d assets atleast?
@Eld
How about we take all the brainiac mathematicians crafting complex hedge fund algorithms and put them to work on things like aids and cancer, yeah, that sounds better.
right..., get a shitton of mathematicians to cure aids.
@Eld
Okay Eld, outline exactly what I should make, and the definitive progression from where I am now, to "super-professional" game designer.
Pong the rpg. Seriously, earn your title as a game designer, prove that you're able to bring your knowledge about rpg into something and make something entirely new.
Take a look at any famous game designer out there, and you'll notice that they all started small, and climbed up, gained experience in the field even if they all were super humans.
Seasoned, professional artists that don't have to worry about writing up a tech spec/design doc, or building a game engine (and an editor), or character art, or animating, or creating SFX or music, are struggling to make a fully playable SINGLE LEVEL in 2 months.
Without a team of similarly seasoned pro's in their relative fields behind you, with your obvious lack of experience, you have no chance.
You've created a thread called Community Made MMORPG, and the community seems to be telling you it's a cliche'd fail.
You won't listen to this advice, but you should make something smaller - A LOT smaller - and build up some experience and reputation from it.
I told a designer at work about your dreams of being an uber designer do everything guy, his advice was "build a time machine and go back 30 years".
And actually, that's great advice, if you look around at indygames done by very small teams of 1 or 2 people they look like games from the 70's and 80's.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3bKSnO_d0M[/ame]
also get your ass over to the TIGsource forums link
Game design is all about working within your limitations and using the resources you have available. As of right now your resources are yourself and anybody willing to offer up their free time instead of devoting it to their own portfolios, personal projects or just fucking about all day.
I'd drop the "massively" for now and aim for something more akin to Realm of the Mad God. Think Minecraft not Warcraft. Even then the bar is set implausibly high.
Your art pool is limited to those with time to work on this. Since most of those artists won't be professionals a unified art style might be hard to accomplish given varying styles and levels of talent, so I would go for a simpler more stylistic approach like that of the assets in this forum's low poly thread. Animating for games is a complex beast
I agree with Justin that you need to get your ass to Mar-TIGsource. I have no idea what goes into client/server coding for these things but I can guess that, like rocking a rhyme that's right on time, it's tricky. Like with the art side of things most people competent enough to make this work are likely already working somewhere else and probably don't feel like doing it for free in their off hours. So, again, you're relying on a pool of people who are still learning and those who will probably have to drop out of the project because they've moved on to bigger and better things that can help pay bills and put food on a table.
Replies
well c'mon man, you spent about 4-5 hours coming up with tag, I don't consider myself a designer and I usually spend weeks writing/iterating/perfecting game design ideas.
r_fletch_r: I think you're falling for the misconception that if an MMO isn't a massive blockbuster it's a failure. WOW is like Avatar, if your movie is profitable but doesn't beat the box office take of Avatar nobody considers it a failure. LOTRO was the number 2 MMO right behind WOW for a while. Now maintaining a staff of 300+ people is a different story.
I thought that was just what he's been doing so he's going for the EPIC fail instead of just a normal fail.
I've been taking most of this seriously, and I think learning quite a bit. I applaud everyone's efforts in discussing this, albeit aggressively at times. I understand the anger my noobness can provoke.
The penis game idea was in response to Justin's analysis of my game design document, which I didn't like. The point of it being; just because you have an idea that is new and original doesn't mean its good, and just because it has elements we've seen before, doesn't mean its bad. If you blanket every video game ever made a spacewar clone because it has pixels, you're just some kind of hipster critic, and not really helpful.
Critiquing:
Helpful: Something is wrong, maybe you should do this, add this? Subtract this?
Not Helpful: Shit sucks brah, give up, looks like cock.
My intentions as of right now are to make a small 2 month game (as per the suggestion of polycounters), and also work on the giant mmo project.
ew it's a mac
the video I mean
Anyway now that I've read through, I agree that a large mmo project is just too much. Ach I'm a lot like you. I've wanted to be in the game industry for over a decade now and I'm working my ass off to get a degree and get through college and work on my portfolio. Feel free to search for SpartnII or SFThree9/[SF]Three9/SF-Three9 and see all my failed projects. I've tried leading several and it always ends up as a failure.
The problem with getting an idea going is convincing people they aren't wasting their time, and without having assets in an engine and working, 90% of anyone who could help you isn't going to even bother. Hell I even tried getting a sweet ass zelda'ish game going with some class mates, and they ended up being flakes (I blame this on the fact that they have no idea how intense the industry is, not that I know, but they think the 2 years we've been in our program is sufficient to get them to be great artists). I was furious to give up on the project, the story, idea, environment....everything we discussed and planned for that game was amazing; it didn't hurt me as much as canceling my Tiberian Eclipse mod, but I was pretty upset.
Anyway back to what I was saying, Ach you seem a lot like myself as far as the aspect of having great passion to want to do something damn good. If I'm right you don't want to make a stupid mod or game that's good but gets 10 downloads a year, you want to do something you can proudly put on your portfolio and maybe even get respect points from people just because you worked on such an amazing project.
Not to be negative, but unless you collect a super group of people like us together, it's nothing more than a dream. I personally don't agree with how you handled your responses to people like Justin and Cholden (and maybe that's also becuase I'm a nobody and they have name recognition lol
[ame]
making to quickly, visually sum up the project, and for the kickstarter page once i make it. I have 2 people helping me model stuff so far btw, and more forum posts with concept art, lore etc.
Take a look at something like infinity: quest for earth.
That's an mmo style project going on in the way you would imagine it, but the only reason it works is, the one main guy is a programmer and he can get everything done even would everyone leave him., infact he is the only one getting real things done.
Awright. You're neither a programmer, nor an artist and your game will be a combination of 4 games that literally hundreds of people have worked on. Hey, that's no big deal! There are these 4 games I like, I just combine all of them together (without having ever designed a shipped product before) and I'll for sure have a hit!
I like the part where you're saying: "So, everyone can do what I do, but what makes us special? Not my own skill of course, but OUR COMMUNITY!" - Are you out of your mind?
Sorry man, but you pretty much lost touch with reality.
Funny stuff, guess that comic was out before realmcrafter. Also I'm more like Timmy+1 because I can model, texture, sculpt, rig, animate, concept, compose, write, and design. Granted I'm not AAA level at any of these, I can do them good enough to make pretty much every part of this game minus the coding. I intend for the game to have a simpler look like zelda ww to make a wider variety of art submissions valid, but I've stated this before. Having said all that for maybe the hundredth time since I've started this lofty project, I also intend to learn some coding in unity. At least enough to get the singleplayer prototype working.
@thomasmahler
Zigerroo froffbottle skock larber buzzle zingderp? Figgle riggle bing bong ziggerwinga dong.
Minecraft wasn't designed to be simple just for giggles, it was chosen to be that way to make it possible for one guy to develop such a game.
Also: you are not a game designer until you've made a product that proves the very fact that you are, ideas aren't worth much at all, everyone has ideas.
And of everyone I know who has actually written functional mmo's they've been A: programmers, and B: people who take in what they can chew.
Edit: just imagine if I was a new artist, I had never finished a model in my entire life, and I write a post on this board where I start talking about my project, it'll be a scene full of buildings and characters, and then I start saying that it'll have the style of several of the best artists in the industry.
Experienced people will respond to me that I should start with something extremely simple, and learn the basics of modelling, and if I told them that I didn't think it was a good idea they would respond and say that I was insane.
[ame]
Do you seriously think that scaling a project up makes it easier to manage? If this was possible people with vastly more skill and experience managing projects would have cornered the market already.
I lol'd.
That whole thing about lots of people with "good" ideas coming together, and there being great ideas as a result? Nice in theory. Except you know, when the people with good ideas you're talking about are all inexperienced dreamers with their own idea of what the 1337est MMORPG would be like. I suppose if the resulting great ideas you're talking about is everyone getting frustrated and the project resulting in a massive failure, then it's ok.
Also the whole "every reader, a writer - every art lover, an artist", etc.
Again, I get the idea. Sounds nice, sure. But one of these days you'll have to ask yourself "So if every reader's a writer, what in the hell type of trash are tomorrow's readers going to be reading?" It's that type of mentality that's the reason blogs are so full of shit these days. And why fan fiction makes me want to kill myself.
I'll be honest I'm somewhat happy to see you continuing on with this. If it makes you happy, by all means pursue it. I'll also say, I appreciate you not getting too terribly bent out of shape over all the comments in direct opposition to the idea.
But seriously this logic doesn't add up.
Or the lack there of?
I agree with Two Listen.
I lol'd.
I'm gonna cry if he posts a "successful troll is successful" meme.
"Sure, here's my informed advice for you."
"No. You're wrong, this is how it will happen."
rinse. repeat.
You're not serious. You like the idea of it all. Hell, I love the idea of being a lead singer in a huge rock band, getting crazy laid, and making millions. I mean...all they do is jot down a few words and make bank, right?! I have some words, I'll write them down...anyone have a lifetime of musical talent they could spare? It'll be awesome. btw...I've never written a song in my life...but that shouldn't matter.
The "penis idea" and popcorn gif threw away any shred of credibility you may have still had with this thread.
With that, I vote that a big ol' huge lock be thrown onto this thread. It's obvious, to me, that this person is a troll. If they're not a troll, they have no respect for this community or the industry at all.
You can do that completely yourself.
If it's fun and you get noticed, you might get some artists/programmers to help you out with your next project that might be a tad more ambitious (like a Gears of War level with some unique AI, and Art).
If you succeed at that, you might land yourself a studio job and fast track yourself to make that MMO you always wanted, have credibility behind your ideas to turn the skeptical polycount community to help you, and you might just get that army of programmers to do your bidding if you can show you're the superstar you think you are.
How about we gather all the wasted hobbyprojects of scientists, all the random stuff they do at their spare time, and try to cure aids with it?
So you either think it will never work, or you think it could work and that's why you labeled it as past tense. Or your from the future, in which case, congratulations.
@Two Listen
You seem to think there is this vast inescapable gulf between the novice and the professional, which simply doesn't exist. When a 6 year old alters the boundaries for today's game of tag, he's a game designer. When Cliffy B. alters the amount of accuracy the Lancer has while blind-firing, hes a game designer.
Every single professional, every single popular, powerful person in their respective trade started out like everyone else; an admirer. And what's so different between a fanfic writer and Stephen King, they both write a lot, they both write fairly well, they both write about the same topics often. Maybe one just likes it more, or is in a position in which they can spend more time writing, or one just got lucky. There are so many tiny variables that gauge and initiate popularity and success, but its not some gulf, some abyss. If anything its just a simple boundary that could be labeled "luck".
There's probably someone on this forum right now that can sing as well as Bieber, and write just as good given the resources and studio time, but luck favored him instead.
Thanks for the encouragement at the end of your post.
@XenoKratios
Well maybe I'm just bad at networking, but I've yet to find anyone solid enough to complete a project with me. Both with me as the leader, or as just additional help. I've looked here, gamedev, craigslist...
@Vrav
I may have at first, but my project's concept has evolved into something greater. I want an art style and world design that easily allows players to contribute content, on a continual basis.
Too bad I don't have, "actual skills".
There's a reason why people wanting to make 'community-made MMORPGs' is such a running gag, because it's by far the hardest thing to do in terms of gaming and amateurs like you with absolutely no production experience and no idea how much work is actually involved in getting shit done who also think they're 'special' because of their 'great ideas' always jump at this - yet, no one has ever completed anything like that, for a good reason.
Tell you what: If you can even show me one good, final asset that you produced using just the community, I'd already be impressed.
Everyone can see that you have a lot of passion - but you lack the professionalism to focus your time and energy on tasks that are achievable. That's why everyone tells you to start small. Because then you'll see how much "FUCK!" and "DAMN!" is involved in even getting a simple game done.
Anyway, I think you need to really run full speed against a wall and make some of your own experiences before you realize that what you want to do is to build the Chinese Wall all by yourself and you're asking people to contribute to an unpaid project like that just for your own satisfaction. It's like asking someone else to jerk you off for nothing in return. You just don't do that shit.
I'm sorry but i have to disagree massively with you here, particularly in the difference in pro vs amateur.
For one thing there is a massive gulf between the two.
Firstly a pro has years of experience behind him, secondly he has a team around with with years of experience, and finally he has technical directors and creative directors with a great deal more experience than himself. His work is regularly reviewed by said directors, he doesn't just model something and it makes its way into the game.
My experience may not be game based, but it is graphic design based, and having worked in a studio environment, studio environments are similar whether game or graphic based(having spoken to some game artists)
You get given a task, and there are regular reviews, where the CD will crit and give you direction, you're never working in an isolated environment.
Additionally with the access to the CD and TD, you are able to ask questions in areas you are unsure of, particularly areas pertaining to the project.
One thing to remember between an amateur and a pro, is the support structure in place, as stated above, an amateur will have a community to help him - if he listens. a Pro has his CD, TD and fellow artists to support and crit, and keep him on track.
The major difference between an amateur and a pro? A Pro gets paid, he has years of experience, he has a great deal of knowledge and understanding that an amateur in most cases, just doesn't possess.
And thomasmahler made quite a few points that I left out, that were very important, such as focus and knowing how to get the job done to deadline, they often don't have weeks to create an asset, they aren't given 4 years to make it. I mean it takes 3 years and 60 dedicated artists to make a single AAA title, that is just SP. How you imagine to make an MMO with artists in and out, in 4 years i don't understand
And then you suddenly notice that you're even then only halfway from being a super-professional.
You can only get the whole perspective when you've been there.
But if there was any single suggestion I would give, and which I guess everyone else would give, and probably have given already:
START SMALL.
Just like the banking system!
@Geezus
Why fizzle your dream out before you even attempt it? What's wrong with grandiose ideas that are unlikely to come true? It's kind of the American dream. If pieces of shit like FRED and Bieber can become uber popular and make millions why can't you? Are they better than you? No, probably not. The only way you're 100% guaranteed to fail is if you never try.
@Ben Apuna
Thanks Ben, I'm trying to bolster my writing skills and 2d skills at the moment. And soon enough I'll be scripting Unity.
@JacqueChoi
I have deeply, deeply, considered this. Mainly due to the Bioware insider guy podcast who talked about one of their designers getting hired just for making a few good NWN modules. I just have this strange gut feeling that it will get ignored, or brushed aside. I think my only real hope would be making something multiplayer that creates a whole new thread of gameplay, like that mod for wc3 DoTA or Counterstrike. And modifications like this seem like they are nearly new games entirely with the amount of coding that goes into them. And if I'm going to spend the time to mod a game that much, it might as well be my own game.
But, but, you're right, this is a very good option for me. And if everyone's right, and I'm wrong, and my own project doesn't take off, or if nobody ends up caring at all, I'll do what you've detailed.
Thanks JacqueChoi, and your Morrigan is F'ing awesome.
@Eld
How about we take all the brainiac mathematicians crafting complex hedge fund algorithms and put them to work on things like aids and cancer, yeah, that sounds better.
@thomasmahler
Despite your rather base allegory in defining my situation, and what I'm asking of the community, I have a follow up. Some people suck dick because they like it. I'll make games and art until the day I die because I want to. Everyone has something they love doing so much, they'll do it for free, these are the people I'm looking for. So I guess if you were van Gogh you'd stop painting and go find a job after your first piece sold for less than you hoped for?
@KaptainKernals
Interesting take, and some good inside insight. Polycount has functioned pretty well for me so far as the slap in the face every time I think I've made something good, and hadn't. But I think it is important for us as game artists to acknowledge the typical gamer doesn't notice subtle texture seams, inverted normals, and even clipping like we do. Would God of War 3 sold fewer copies if Kratos didn't have normal blending for each emotion on his face? Fuck no, the whole package looks good enough, and works.
Also I don't know where you're getting 4 years, I projected like 8.5 years in my little phase by phase schedule thing on an earlier page.
@Eld
Okay Eld, outline exactly what I should make, and the definitive progression from where I am now, to "super-professional" game designer.
That is where you said 4 years
lets take a couple of simple issues that are going to put off pretty much everyone who's contributions would be otherwise useful. I'm sure others will chip in with more :
It's got one of those fucking awful scrabble-bag names, meaningless and generic but with this nasty whiff of pomposity, like it wants to allude to something really deep and mysterious. Crimson Haze? What the hell is that? A take on Purple Haze? Who do you think you are, Hendrix? Or is it named after a colorectal cancer patients fart? Eh? Why do i want to join a project where even the brand name has been plucked randomly from thin air with no further thought to how it portrays the project, eh? Why? Think it through. Exhibit A.
Whats that video about? All it seems to be to me is a amateurish, clunky, badly edited visualistion of the blurb you've already written down IN WORDS on the website. Words i can read at my own pace without massive great big empty pauses in the middle and dialog boxes popping up. What's it for? To get your intentions across to people who can't read? They'll be useful for your project i'm sure. Or are you hoping to take it viral? Oh, it'll get shared and punted about for a bit all right. But for the wrong reasons. If you want to somehow (care to share?) drum up contributions using this video, it has to be infinitely more professional. Or they'll laugh at you. Exhibit B.
oh, and your website's not working.
He already did, he said "START SMALL". Do you want him to write you a complete step by step guide to make YOUR game for YOU?
There is no "definitive progression", but making a small game, mod, map or even just a single asset is a step in the right direction for sure.
By the way I fully support your goal. The best way to learn is from experience, and since you aren't taking in everyone else's experiences you'll have to just try it yourself.
I really hope you succeed, but if you don't, at least you could share your experiences to the next guy who wants to make a MMO for free.
Also, "too big to fail" doesn't really make sense in this context. Actually a lot of your logic doesn't really make sense to me, but I like it.
but they can not take away our Internets!
As it is you've got three times as many forums as you have posts to fill them, not a shred of game design documented, and you seem to have invested all of your effort into building a website and promoting your otherwise non-existent project on youtube. Even if they are enthralled enough by the idea to not notice it's shaped suspiciously like the Hindenburg, they're going to look at your site and think your project is dead on arrival.
Big projects that are just starting require a lot of smoke and mirrors in order to build interest. Mockup screenshots, a well designed website with an actual domain name, and some GOOD concept art go a long way here. Try approaching people directly, rather than announcing your misconceptions about game development in public venues while people with actual production experience sit there going "uhh here's all the shit you're doing wrong and why" while you refute them with "No! /popcorn" and expect people to flock to your idea of their own accord.
Don't put your forums online until you've actually got something to put in them and consolidate all of your forums into one until you actually have enough posts to warrant dividing them. One forum with 200 posts makes a community look a lot more active than 70 forums with 3 each.
If a 6-year-old friend of mine brings me cough medicine when I'm in bed with the flu, that doesn't make him a doctor. Heck, not even a pharmacist. If a kid adds up his pocket money and sees if he has enough for a new toy, that doesn't make him a bookkeeper. If someone manages changes a lightbulb, that doesn't make him an electrician or an engineer.
Let's not disrespect the profession of being a "game designer" by ignoring the many years of study, skill, experience, hard work and professionalism that earned them the job title, okay?
edit: BLAME VIDEO GAMES.
would be for you to have some artwork that can be modeled, than people may like to work with you (and not for you!).
try to avoid the vague thing and people will like it.
right..., get a shitton of mathematicians to cure aids.
Pong the rpg. Seriously, earn your title as a game designer, prove that you're able to bring your knowledge about rpg into something and make something entirely new.
Take a look at any famous game designer out there, and you'll notice that they all started small, and climbed up, gained experience in the field even if they all were super humans.
Seasoned, professional artists that don't have to worry about writing up a tech spec/design doc, or building a game engine (and an editor), or character art, or animating, or creating SFX or music, are struggling to make a fully playable SINGLE LEVEL in 2 months.
Without a team of similarly seasoned pro's in their relative fields behind you, with your obvious lack of experience, you have no chance.
You've created a thread called Community Made MMORPG, and the community seems to be telling you it's a cliche'd fail.
You won't listen to this advice, but you should make something smaller - A LOT smaller - and build up some experience and reputation from it.
And actually, that's great advice, if you look around at indygames done by very small teams of 1 or 2 people they look like games from the 70's and 80's.
[ame]
also get your ass over to the TIGsource forums
link
I'd drop the "massively" for now and aim for something more akin to Realm of the Mad God. Think Minecraft not Warcraft. Even then the bar is set implausibly high.
Your art pool is limited to those with time to work on this. Since most of those artists won't be professionals a unified art style might be hard to accomplish given varying styles and levels of talent, so I would go for a simpler more stylistic approach like that of the assets in this forum's low poly thread. Animating for games is a complex beast
I agree with Justin that you need to get your ass to Mar-TIGsource. I have no idea what goes into client/server coding for these things but I can guess that, like rocking a rhyme that's right on time, it's tricky. Like with the art side of things most people competent enough to make this work are likely already working somewhere else and probably don't feel like doing it for free in their off hours. So, again, you're relying on a pool of people who are still learning and those who will probably have to drop out of the project because they've moved on to bigger and better things that can help pay bills and put food on a table.
Alternatively, live in a reality where one man can program, create art assets for, write, animate and test everything in a game.