Whoops you ruined it right there. While It was appropriate and correct to say it, in my experience anybody who is actually complaining will take offense to being told to stop.
Here's a great show I saw on PBS about for profit colleges and how they use accreditation and it's access into the federal student loan arena to reap huge profits while saddling kids with massive debt.
It's a real scam, but it's also a massive financial bubble that could blow and cripple the US economy (again). That's why the federal government can't just crack down and cut the schools off from federal loans.
Here's a great show I saw on PBS about for profit colleges and how they use accreditation and it's access into the federal student loan arena to reap huge profits while saddling kids with massive debt.
It's a real scam, but it's also a massive financial bubble that could blow and cripple the US economy (again). That's why the federal government can't just crack down and cut the schools off from federal loans.
I haven't watched it yet, but are they saying that the federal government won't crack down because of a bubble or because its political suicide to be a politician seen as redirecting huge quantities of educational funding? I can see the political attack ads now.
"Senator Soandso voted to rob your Gerber Baby college fund".
Paid for by: Citizens Who Think Fair and Legal Advertising is a Pile of Crap
I don't know about any other schools outside of AI, but they definitely made it seem like all traditional skills can be taught and learned just like math. I remember going to a presentation that AI sponsored when I was in High School, and I cannot tell you the number of people who were like, "Well, I can't draw, but I want to be an artist." "Oh, we'll teach you that part, don't worry about that."
Which is possible...to an extent, it can be learned. But one can't just assume they're going to magically obtain the ability to draw if they just show up to class and don't work on it outside of school, or anything else for that matter.
When I applied/started they didn't even ask for a portfolio, like most art schools do. From what I understand, that has since changed.
I haven't watched it yet, but are they saying that the federal government won't crack down because of a bubble or because its political suicide to be a politician seen as redirecting huge quantities of educational funding? I can see the political attack ads now.
I didn't get the impression that it's political suicide. Saving taxpayers tons of money in bad loans, protecting parents from having their kids being victimized, protecting young voters from being victimized by bad education and horrible debt. These are all political wins.
The problems enter because politicians are under pressure to make a college education accessible to more and more people so that our nation is ready for the future, so that we can continue to be a nation of industry and innovation. For-profit colleges 'educate' huge numbers of people now, and you can't just get rid of them without offering something else to those students who want a college education. Community Colleges and Public Colleges can't carry the load (thus the huge business opportunity).
Politicians, students and parents alike would like the money to be going towards quality education, not profits for huge corporations like the Apollo Group. So, an actual fix to the problems would be a huge political win. The problem is that the politicians have to offer alternative education sources and not burst the economic bubble in the process. Nobody really knows how to do that.
It's likely that for-profit colleges are here to stay and will continue to suck as an education, but that there will be a few more rules about how they can use the federal loan system to rape students' bank accounts for the rest of their lives.
"I was on unemployment for a year, and continued to search for a job in the gaming field as well as the art field," Howard tells Kotaku. "No one would hire me because I didn't have the skill and knowledge in video game design."
And yet she didn't think to work on her portfolio or her skill.
"I was either under qualified to work in the gaming industry or over qualified to work regular jobs," says Howard. "I was in a Catch-22."
Here's a thought, don't tell them you have a degree. If that's what is really holding you back, problem solved. Instead of spamming every place you can find with "dear sir and or madam, check out my cute bears" how about tailor it specifically to the place your applying?
This also underscores why gamers don't always make the best game artists/designers. I think its really important to be an artist first with a secondary passion for games. Honestly if you're really serious about this as a career, you should probably spend more time making content than playing content made by other people, at least until you get basics down.
And yet she didn't think to work on her portfolio or her skill.
Here's a thought, don't tell them you have a degree if that's what is really holding you back. Instead of spamming every place you can find with "dear sir and or madam" how about tailor it specifically to the place your applying.
It's amazing what people do with their time when they have a lot of it... She blames the school for wasting it but then turns right around and does the same thing.
This is not the face of the "post graduation can't find a job" crowd we want the world to see... But there she is... Colin's bear come to life.
But thats kind of the lie of these schools.
Did someone ever tell her that she should work on her porfolio and her art skills and learning on her own. If they did then she's somewhat culpable, if they didnt then how is she expected to know?
She's told that the education she has paid for will give her all that she needs. Everyone is told that. Why wouldnt it be at $70,000.
Schools like she went to are a clever con. We have companies like that here, they promise to teach you all this knowledge, and that at the end of it you will get a job for £50,000, and thats a promise. And they have testimonials and a map, with all these people that have got these great jobs.
All you've go to do is pay large some of money up front which is completely worth it and just a drop in the ocean compared to what you will be earning very soon.
What they dont tell you is, almost no one completes the course. What you've paid does not cover all of the costs. The lessons are at inconvenient times. The teachers are not very good and do not teach you what you need to know to pass the tests. Also in the time required with the lessons available it is not physically possible to complete the course.
Some a few really rare people do actually pass the course, by doing lots of studying in their own time. They were not told to do this, but they realised they could not learn all that was required nor learning enough in the lessons. After completion they find that, they get a few rubbish job offers up to what is contractually required, but they dont get them. And then they are abandoned by the school and find out the paper they got isnt really worth that much.
The dont do anything illegal, there very careful about that, but its totally immoral and it is a blatant con. Those doing these doing these things know exactly what it is they are doing. The plan it out how best to do it and convince these people. They use all kinds of silly little pshycologically tricks to get people in. Promise them that with this your life will be the best it ever has been.
People believe it because the want to because the are stupidly human. I almost fell for it, except I had already fallen for a few cons before, and was wary of the salesmens pushy nature and marketing speil.
So that tells me she didn't even bother researching what the jobs required before going to school.
I don't know the specifics of this girl's situation, but in general I don't think that's a fair expectation to put on someone. Like most college-bound kids in America, I applied for and was accepted to my university during the first half of my senior year in high school. I was 17 years old when I made that decision.
I don't think a typical kid that age can be expected to research like you're saying. It probably wouldn't even dawn upon many of them that it needs researching - by and large, most career fields are satisfied with what your diploma. Get degree, apply for jobs and done. Some fields are different, but who explains that to a high school kid? I went to a Catholic prep school in high school and got pushed into an engineering major. I didn't even know that design was a career until I got to college, as art wasn't encouraged. Academically, I was a real smart kid, but I wasted two years of my life going down the wrong path just because I had no idea what I was doing at age 17.
People need to take charge of their lives and can't expect things to be handed to them, I agree with that. This chick should have realized within a year or two at school that her 'education' wasn't getting it done. But I can't see throwing stones at her for making a decision that only looks absurd in hindsight. Polycounters are very wired into the game art profession and so her mistake seems obvious, but not everyone has the good fortune to find this place or others like it before making the decision on where they go to college.
She is showing her terrible art, and talking about how she actually passed with it. Those childlike drawings passed with high scores in an art related course. Sure, a lot of things are her fault in this situation, but that is just truly fucked.
I wish somebody would pay me 70k to just tell people their crap is good. I could do that all day.
Did someone ever tell her that she should work on her porfolio and her art skills and learning on her own. If they did then she's somewhat culpable, if they didnt then how is she expected to know?
I agree and I think something needs to be done about how the school operates, they're fuckin crooks. Which is why I partially applaud her for having the balls (and a unique string of keywords, goldman sachs, stripper, 70k) to draw some attention to the situation.
But for a year she was rejected time and again, she even admits when she's showing her portfolio that its junk, yet didn't do anything about it. If the bait isn't doing the trick, she can give up and blame the person who sold her the bait, or she can go dig up some worms in her backyard and re-bait her hook and try again.
She realizes that she could of taught herself everything she's learned up to this point, but she stops there. I don't think she's giving up because she's been held back or anyone else is out to keep her from getting a job. She realizes she could put in a lot more work and get there, but instead she gives up.
It a tough thing being duped like that, it has to suck. But the people who wake up, dust themselves off and push themselves up to industry standard are the ones that get in. The industry isn't built by people who say "oh well I tried".
So to those people who get knocked down by assholes crooks the question is, do you become successful in spite of them or do you choose to be unsuccessful because of them?
What's awful is that it's not just the Art Institute unfortunately. It's everywhere.
I did my undergrad at Art Institute and it was almost entirely teachers handing out tutorials written by other people, and/or talking us through them in class. Not all teachers mind you, some actually cared (and if you're among them and see this, I already have you on facebook ), but a couple good teachers don't quite balance against 60k in debt.
I'm taking my Masters at SCAD-Atlanta, and I thought maybe the courses would be more educational and difficult given that there for students at a higher level of learning. That's just not the case.
Our environment art class had the teacher learning UDK with us, and dispensing Hourences tutorial's through a word document he copied them into.
For an online character art class, the teacher has a set of instructions up there that are circa about 6 years ago, for use in unreal 2.
Posting/appropriating materials from tutorials made from other people, and reposting the same curriculum that was aimed at technology from 6 years ago is not teaching, and it's not worth the expense of the class.
Having the students critique each other's work is not an appropriate substitute for teacher involvement in the forums. We're essentially doing his job for him.
It also doesn't help that after several years of study (since this is a Graduate level class) most of the students got there without a basic grasp of the programs needed to do any of the assignments like Zbrush, or an understanding of anatomy.
It just makes me tired. And sad too. School should be about learning from someone who know's what their doing.
(Which I'm glad has happened in two of my classes with the same teacher at least)
My opinion, what's being said about the the for-profit schools needs to be said. But I don't think she should be the spokeswoman of this operation. I know far more talented young artists who have been out of school for a year or more, with great portfolios and a drive to continue to practice and improve and still have found nothing. It's those people who should be heading this crusade, not her.
I agree and I think something needs to be done about how the school operates, they're fuckin crooks.
But for a year she was rejected time and again, she even admits when she's showing her portfolio that its junk, yet didn't do anything about it. If the bait isn't doing the trick, she can give up and blame the person who sold her the bait, or she can go dig up some worms in her backyard and re-bait her hook and try again.
She realizes that she could of taught herself everything she's learned up to this point, but she stops there. I don't think she's giving up because she's been held back or anyone else is out to keep her from getting a job. She realizes she could put in a lot more work and get there, but instead she gives up.
It a tough thing being duped like that, it has to suck. But the people who wake up, dust themselves off and push themselves up to industry standard are the ones that get in. The industry isn't built by people who say "oh well I tried".
So to those people who get knocked down by assholes crooks the question is, do you become successful in spite of them or do you choose to be unsuccessful because of them?
Its a hard bitter pill to swallow. Admitting that she's wasted several years and a ton of money. From her portfolio it doesnt appear she's learned anything of game art. She would basically have to start from scratch. I couldnt blamer her for saying to hell with it.
My opinion, what's being said about the the for-profit schools needs to be said. But I don't think she should be the spokeswoman of this operation. I know far more talented young artists who have been out of school for a year or more, with great portfolios and a drive to continue to practice and improve and still have found nothing. It's those people who should be heading this crusade, not her.
That goes against the whole point of the argument.
The school did not equip her with the skills she needed, ie: what she payed for. Her portfolio is terrible. They did not [apparently] inform her of the requirements she would need to succeed. They just took her money and gave her As.
If your friends have great portfolios, then the college has done it's job and it's all on them. They have nothing to crusade, other than lamenting not being employed. They have all the tools necessary.
hey me too! But the guy it reminds me of didn't copy the tutorials word for word, he re-worded them in a unique way so when you try to follow his, it'll go wrong because its either missing a step or explained incorrectly.
Basically the best thing to do when you get his tutorials is to go online and find the source of where he reworded it from
That goes against the whole point of the argument.
The school did not equip her with the skills she needed, ie: what she payed for. Her portfolio is terrible. They did not [apparently] inform her of the requirements she would need to succeed. They just took her money and gave her As.
If your friends have great portfolios, then the college has done it's job and it's all on them. They have nothing to crusade, other than lamenting not being employed. They have all the tools necessary.
I think a huge part of the argument is these school give all this hype about the amazing job placement and the amazing pay you will recieve upon graduating, and what's the underlying fact is that job placement could be that you are working part-time at Target after graduating. The AI I went to boasted a more than 80% job placement rate for the game art students, with the average earnings for new hires being 80k+....now that's a bunch of bull.
Like Mega Moogle pointed out, she's a bad poster child for this issue. This is not the face of people who have graduated that have had a tough time finding work. It's not because she's a stripper, its because she gave up and is failing to give the vital info potential students need.
This story needs to be finished with:
"... and this is how I got a job in spite of what they've done to me"
"Look at all the other people who put in the hard work and got in without degrees"
"Don't go to these schools, starve them out, teach yourself and or go to the really good ones"
"Do your research anytime you give anyone money. Especially $80,000."
Instead it ends with:
"oh poor stripper girl, whats wrong with our world today, /apathetic shrug"
What a retard. She lacks a basic understanding of art, seems to has a four year olds interpretation of it. I love how she seems to be blaming the college for her output, even though she seems to know what 'industry standard' is. She seems angry, but not at herself. Also lol at the 'copyright infringement' comment. She really is not a very intelligent person.
Her 3D work isnt the worst, but its at the end of the portfolio. How the hell did she manage to output a render from 3DS Max in black and white? Does she mean she didn't texture the asset? Her graphic design work isn't actually that bad, it shows a working knowledge of working with vectors, why didn't she apply for a job in that field, or for a games job that required a graphic artist?
Stupid tart. I hope she reads this thread, and realises its on her, even though for-profit colleges are run by thieves. She can't use this as an excuse.
Well, gamedev schools are not the place to learn the basics in art, that's what art schools are for, but proper gamedev schools will atleast make sure you know enough to be able to apply, but these ones just take people who have the cash.
And yet she didn't think to work on her portfolio or her skill.
Here's a thought, don't tell them you have a degree. If that's what is really holding you back, problem solved. Instead of spamming every place you can find with "dear sir and or madam, check out my cute bears" how about tailor it specifically to the place your applying?
This also underscores why gamers don't always make the best game artists/designers. I think its really important to be an artist first with a secondary passion for games. Honestly if you're really serious about this as a career, you should probably spend more time making content than playing content made by other people, at least until you get basics down.
I am analyzing the school curriculum based on her artwork :
first term : fundamental drawing - and some other art theory class <- in fact this is very common slow paced curriculum in most university.
what missing? game art fundamental. and milestone final project.
pre production class is important, people just can throw as many impossible ideas from day one in school and break it down in a mean time.
I went trough the same way prob, even more hostile, my teacher ( in my first university) didn't allow me to make demoreel for final project. if i dont take another school, i would ended like her. gladly my tuition back then not even close fraction to what she paid.
What a retard. She lacks a basic understanding of art, seems to has a four year olds interpretation of it. I love how she seems to be blaming the college for her output, even though she seems to know what 'industry standard' is. She seems angry, but not at herself. Also lol at the 'copyright infringement' comment. She really is not a very intelligent person.
Her 3D work isnt the worst, but its at the end of the portfolio. How the hell did she manage to output a render from 3DS Max in black and white? Does she mean she didn't texture the asset? Her graphic design work isn't actually that bad, it shows a working knowledge of working with vectors, why didn't she apply for a job in that field, or for a games job that required a graphic artist?
Stupid tart. I hope she reads this thread, and realises its on her, even though for-profit colleges are run by thieves. She can't use this as an excuse.
Well her skill and personal sense of responsibility aside, the point is the last part of your argument. She shouldn't have been getting A's at all. She realizes it (when that came to be is up for debate), but the school didn't. And that was there job. To slap her down if she's making crap, and then guide her in the right direction.
It's easy to say she should have known better, but I bet alot of us didn't. Most of us didn't realize the meager education we were getting until half way through our education, or later. If I hadn't already been doing the art stuff on the side for fun anyway, I'd have been totally screwed (instead of just mostly )
[wishful thinking]Schools shouldn't hold the hands of people going through them, but they should make sure that everyone is getting the education they need, and is not being deluded in the process. And if students drop the ball and don't do anything to help themselves then they should be told to GTFO. [/wishful thinking ]
No school, not one school is going to hold your hand all the way through and make sure you are doing your part with practice and studying. Not a single one out there, art, game art or anything else. The biggest difference between these schools and the others is that AI will still let you graduate whether or not you have what it takes to get a job. But honestly, those are the people that I went to school who didn't much care to work much anyway, and most talked explicitly of their desire to test games. The people who I know who worked hard and have great potential and don't have jobs should not be compared to someone like her.
This is probably gonna end up as a rant but whatever. She showed her portfolio and I was like okay there's some decent stuff in there but she should have noticed from the very beginning that the game industry was not meant for her. I have no clue what the syllabus at AI is but there's gotta be some life drawing in there or something. PUT THAT IN YOUR PORTFOLIO.
Also overall her work sorta of got better but she lacked the initiative to push herself harder. Personally I think it comes down to two factors. The love for what you're doing and parenting. If you have no heart, its gonna show through your art. I put parenting there because I know the hardships my parents went through to get me to Canada and get a better life for myself and my siblings. She must have gotten everything on a golden plate and learned that "O HEY, people give me stuff so I can cruise through" On my hand, I gotta show everytime that what Im doing is an actual job. My parents are traditional, in the fact that they think a proper job is being a lawyer, doctor, engineer etc. you could say I'm the black sheep in my family but it was the culture they were born in, they support me in what I do but I try extra hard everytime to push myself to impress them. Thats sorta my motivation and if I fucked around in my college time, my parents would destroy the living shit out of me.
I just hate the fact that the media is portraying her as some sort of queen. Due to this her view on schools is just gonna get more inflated and the media doesn't care. Its just another story for them.
EDIT: There were a bunch of floaters like her in our first year and probably one of the best teachers I've had in my college time said FUCK YOU to them and failed them. Funny thing is two of them didnt learn and are coming back for another first year at college. The teacher didnt care how good your art was, he was there to help you and grow but he like 50% of the actual grade was could you follow instructions. He would critique and tear your work up but when he did give you a compliment you actually felt like you earned his respect.
EDIT: I am glad my peers told me about polycount. The wealth of information here is like fort knox.
This isn't to excuse what she's doing now, but I don't think it's fair to be quite so critical of her because, she (and anyone in similar circumstances) shouldn't really have been in this situation in the first place. Her work is okay, it's just not higher education/University level material and that *should* have been spotted and assessed when/if she had her original application interview, she should have been told from the outset that her work wasn't suitable and that she needed to work on it and improve. The fact that that doesn't appear to be the case speaks volumes of the school itself rather than her 'not knowing her arse from her elbow'.
The situation she's in now is again based on her beliefs as a typical student, if collegial institutions builds students up with false expectation, why would they necessarily think they're being lied to until after the fact when reality smacks them full in the face.. after all it's a college giving them assurances, a trusted establishment, and not some disgruntled mate of a mate they once knew worked for some company no-ones heard of.
With regards to the willingness of politicians.. it needs to be understood that banks underwrite the financing - it's where the money actually comes from, not the Government or educational institutions (they 'borrow' the funds from banks and we 'pay' it back plus interest). As banks have massive lobbying power they're going to do what's in their best interests and not ours. Her grievances are genuine in that case, shes just not going about it the right way.. but then the media loves sensationalism's and simple stories so maybe *this* is her calling and what cost her $70 grand to 'learn'
I sent her a message too and I've yet to get a response. I'm not even sure she wants to be in games anymore. I think she wants to change her career to modeling. I know everyone here has a strong opinion but unless we can offer a helping hand, then we're nothing but a bunch of douche bags sitting on our high horses looking down on her. We need to be Morpheus and guide her to the door.
In some ways I'm not that much different then her. I spent 60K on a degree and I have a lackluster portfolio. It was only until after I graduated that I found the this game art community.
So basically, if she does come asking for help, we should offer a helping hand.
I sent her a message too and I've yet to get a response. I'm not even sure she wants to be in games anymore. I think she wants to change her career to modeling. I know everyone here has a strong opinion but unless we can offer a helping hand, then we're nothing but a bunch of douche bags sitting on our high horses looking down on her. We need to be Morpheus and guide her to the door.
In some ways I'm not that much different then her. I spent 60K on a degree and I have a lackluster portfolio. It was only until after I graduated that I found the this game art community.
So basically, if she does come asking for help, we should offer a helping hand.
I sent her a challenge. Come to polycount, post her art, develop new art and we will help her get there. No response.
So her work isn't up to much - at least she had the balls to make her work public. When was the last time you posted anything, other than juvenile bullshit like this?
As Kat says, it's pretty obvious that she should have been informed of her skill level prior to starting the course, and that she should have been more dedicated to improving her skills on her own time, but was that outburst really necessary?
What about the guy who started the thread about positivity recently? He was in almost exactly the same situation, just with a better standard of work and lacking the dramatic legal 'battle' - how come you didn't weigh in on that one, call him a retard? Because he's not a stripper?
So her work isn't up to much - at least she had the balls to make her work public. When was the last time you posted anything, other than juvenile bullshit like this?
As Kat says, it's pretty obvious that she should have been informed of her skill level prior to starting the course, and that she should have been more dedicated to improving her skills on her own time, but was that outburst really necessary?
What about the guy who started the thread about positivity recently? He was in almost exactly the same situation, just with a better standard of work and lacking the dramatic legal 'battle' - how come you didn't weigh in on that one, call him a retard? Because he's not a stripper?
Get a fucking clue.
Totally agree.
It's easy to rant but it'a a lot harder to solve a problem.
We at Polycount should be Problem Solvers. Not just for her but for every student, post grad, or aspiring artist.
I've already had a conversation with someone that currently goes to the school I went to and I helped them with resources and advice.
I should probably make something clarified on how she "passed"
Everyone down to the dean knew of her and her antics, and everyone knew she didnt get it , but she still stood at it. When you tried to explain things to her it never sat in. When she was about to fail a class she would complain to all the adminstration until the administration just said "pass her" I know this first hand from many of the educators there...hell the old head figure (before he quit there) just told teachers flat out , hold her hand and pass her along.
While as other students tried these same tactics as her to be lazy and just pass they were promptly failed. But this girl cried wolf so many times that everyone just wanted her out of school. And lord and behold, years later she's still crying wolf?
The girl didnt learn her lesson, she countlessly sent me and other graduate friends (Who had made it or somewhat made it) in the field, messages to Sue AI with her because we had to learn shit on our own. And therefore we needed to sue Ai to get out money back.
I told this girl back in college that she needed to open her eyes and look at the online world because thats your real competition. There were no game jobs in FL. And if you wanted one you needed to look for one and practice.
This career is very similar in 1 regard to being a doctor...where as doctors spend 1000000 + hours studying books and medicine both in and out of school. We to must do the same to understand both 3d program and interfaces and intergrations and shaders and scripting, and then another 10000000+ hours to understand how to make nice artwork with it as well.
I honestly dont feel sorry for this girl. And I know many silent readers who knew her or went to school with her or directly taught her know I am not tip toeing around any of the subjects at hand.
I think at this point this conversation is WELL said and over.
Polycount I love you guys(and gals) to death. But honestly this is one of those cases were its better to leave it alone versus trying to help. To those of you who are sending her messages,you actions are honorable but honestly dont get upset if you dont get a response back or another excuse.
As some people said here, she dug her own grave and now she's stripping because of it.
If the problem was some flaw in her personality, then aren't we all guilty of having some flaw or personal shortcoming that we haven't dealt with(or don't realize). Or is everyone here going to claim that they have perfect personalities.
If I had joined PC a year earlier then I did, then I might be getting the same criticism as she is. I developed my drive not only because of my love for games but also because I had good friends with me all the way.
I agree with seforin that there is a certain point where people can't be helped. I know many people from my class that just didn't get it even when they got help. But like I said above, we should be problem solvers and find out what can be done to prevent people from getting cheated out of their money. We could promote schools that the community thinks produces the best results. We could also create and spread information to students or people looking for game education about what a person "really" needs to know about getting a job in the industry.
Your right though this conversation is pretty much done as she is probably switching careers from games to some type of modeling career.
I am glad you decided to give us perspective from a neutral standpoint Seforin. It is always hard to judge a situation from one side, just like a car accident. One person says one thing, the other says another, and then the witness comes in and brings the truth. I just saw this via facebook, and I have come to a decision on this topic. I am done .
I mean, watched the portfolio video, and she "taught" herself how to draw in photoshop? Rendering a "black and white" from 3ds? Doesn't even know how to give a texture or material? Most aspiring artist start with OpenSourced programs and aleast know how to do that in the first week.
I'm on the line with both the sides on the arguement saying that "she dug a hole and threw her clothes into along with $70000" and "for $70000, the school shouldn't have made her take a loan that large or atleast taught her better".
Bishop: don't be so conflicted, they're two different issues.
Her lack of the drive to make it stands seperate from the fact this school costs more than it's worth, and that they oversell themselves to impressionable young boys and girls who want to get into the industry.
Replies
Whoops you ruined it right there. While It was appropriate and correct to say it, in my experience anybody who is actually complaining will take offense to being told to stop.
This actually, a chance to redeem herself in the eyes of this community.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/
It's a real scam, but it's also a massive financial bubble that could blow and cripple the US economy (again). That's why the federal government can't just crack down and cut the schools off from federal loans.
I haven't watched it yet, but are they saying that the federal government won't crack down because of a bubble or because its political suicide to be a politician seen as redirecting huge quantities of educational funding? I can see the political attack ads now.
"Senator Soandso voted to rob your Gerber Baby college fund".
Paid for by: Citizens Who Think Fair and Legal Advertising is a Pile of Crap
Which is possible...to an extent, it can be learned. But one can't just assume they're going to magically obtain the ability to draw if they just show up to class and don't work on it outside of school, or anything else for that matter.
When I applied/started they didn't even ask for a portfolio, like most art schools do. From what I understand, that has since changed.
I didn't get the impression that it's political suicide. Saving taxpayers tons of money in bad loans, protecting parents from having their kids being victimized, protecting young voters from being victimized by bad education and horrible debt. These are all political wins.
The problems enter because politicians are under pressure to make a college education accessible to more and more people so that our nation is ready for the future, so that we can continue to be a nation of industry and innovation. For-profit colleges 'educate' huge numbers of people now, and you can't just get rid of them without offering something else to those students who want a college education. Community Colleges and Public Colleges can't carry the load (thus the huge business opportunity).
Politicians, students and parents alike would like the money to be going towards quality education, not profits for huge corporations like the Apollo Group. So, an actual fix to the problems would be a huge political win. The problem is that the politicians have to offer alternative education sources and not burst the economic bubble in the process. Nobody really knows how to do that.
It's likely that for-profit colleges are here to stay and will continue to suck as an education, but that there will be a few more rules about how they can use the federal loan system to rape students' bank accounts for the rest of their lives.
[ame]
http://kotaku.com/5610985/how-a-bad-degree-robbed-a-stripper-of-her-video-game-love
And yet she didn't think to work on her portfolio or her skill.
Here's a thought, don't tell them you have a degree. If that's what is really holding you back, problem solved. Instead of spamming every place you can find with "dear sir and or madam, check out my cute bears" how about tailor it specifically to the place your applying?
This also underscores why gamers don't always make the best game artists/designers. I think its really important to be an artist first with a secondary passion for games. Honestly if you're really serious about this as a career, you should probably spend more time making content than playing content made by other people, at least until you get basics down.
But thats kind of the lie of these schools.
Did someone ever tell her that she should work on her porfolio and her art skills and learning on her own. If they did then she's somewhat culpable, if they didnt then how is she expected to know?
She's told that the education she has paid for will give her all that she needs. Everyone is told that. Why wouldnt it be at $70,000.
Schools like she went to are a clever con. We have companies like that here, they promise to teach you all this knowledge, and that at the end of it you will get a job for £50,000, and thats a promise. And they have testimonials and a map, with all these people that have got these great jobs.
All you've go to do is pay large some of money up front which is completely worth it and just a drop in the ocean compared to what you will be earning very soon.
What they dont tell you is, almost no one completes the course. What you've paid does not cover all of the costs. The lessons are at inconvenient times. The teachers are not very good and do not teach you what you need to know to pass the tests. Also in the time required with the lessons available it is not physically possible to complete the course.
Some a few really rare people do actually pass the course, by doing lots of studying in their own time. They were not told to do this, but they realised they could not learn all that was required nor learning enough in the lessons. After completion they find that, they get a few rubbish job offers up to what is contractually required, but they dont get them. And then they are abandoned by the school and find out the paper they got isnt really worth that much.
The dont do anything illegal, there very careful about that, but its totally immoral and it is a blatant con. Those doing these doing these things know exactly what it is they are doing. The plan it out how best to do it and convince these people. They use all kinds of silly little pshycologically tricks to get people in. Promise them that with this your life will be the best it ever has been.
People believe it because the want to because the are stupidly human. I almost fell for it, except I had already fallen for a few cons before, and was wary of the salesmens pushy nature and marketing speil.
Just my pennys worth.
I don't know the specifics of this girl's situation, but in general I don't think that's a fair expectation to put on someone. Like most college-bound kids in America, I applied for and was accepted to my university during the first half of my senior year in high school. I was 17 years old when I made that decision.
I don't think a typical kid that age can be expected to research like you're saying. It probably wouldn't even dawn upon many of them that it needs researching - by and large, most career fields are satisfied with what your diploma. Get degree, apply for jobs and done. Some fields are different, but who explains that to a high school kid? I went to a Catholic prep school in high school and got pushed into an engineering major. I didn't even know that design was a career until I got to college, as art wasn't encouraged. Academically, I was a real smart kid, but I wasted two years of my life going down the wrong path just because I had no idea what I was doing at age 17.
People need to take charge of their lives and can't expect things to be handed to them, I agree with that. This chick should have realized within a year or two at school that her 'education' wasn't getting it done. But I can't see throwing stones at her for making a decision that only looks absurd in hindsight. Polycounters are very wired into the game art profession and so her mistake seems obvious, but not everyone has the good fortune to find this place or others like it before making the decision on where they go to college.
She is showing her terrible art, and talking about how she actually passed with it. Those childlike drawings passed with high scores in an art related course. Sure, a lot of things are her fault in this situation, but that is just truly fucked.
I wish somebody would pay me 70k to just tell people their crap is good. I could do that all day.
But for a year she was rejected time and again, she even admits when she's showing her portfolio that its junk, yet didn't do anything about it. If the bait isn't doing the trick, she can give up and blame the person who sold her the bait, or she can go dig up some worms in her backyard and re-bait her hook and try again.
She realizes that she could of taught herself everything she's learned up to this point, but she stops there. I don't think she's giving up because she's been held back or anyone else is out to keep her from getting a job. She realizes she could put in a lot more work and get there, but instead she gives up.
It a tough thing being duped like that, it has to suck. But the people who wake up, dust themselves off and push themselves up to industry standard are the ones that get in. The industry isn't built by people who say "oh well I tried".
So to those people who get knocked down by assholes crooks the question is, do you become successful in spite of them or do you choose to be unsuccessful because of them?
I did my undergrad at Art Institute and it was almost entirely teachers handing out tutorials written by other people, and/or talking us through them in class. Not all teachers mind you, some actually cared (and if you're among them and see this, I already have you on facebook
I'm taking my Masters at SCAD-Atlanta, and I thought maybe the courses would be more educational and difficult given that there for students at a higher level of learning. That's just not the case.
Our environment art class had the teacher learning UDK with us, and dispensing Hourences tutorial's through a word document he copied them into.
For an online character art class, the teacher has a set of instructions up there that are circa about 6 years ago, for use in unreal 2.
Posting/appropriating materials from tutorials made from other people, and reposting the same curriculum that was aimed at technology from 6 years ago is not teaching, and it's not worth the expense of the class.
Having the students critique each other's work is not an appropriate substitute for teacher involvement in the forums. We're essentially doing his job for him.
It also doesn't help that after several years of study (since this is a Graduate level class) most of the students got there without a basic grasp of the programs needed to do any of the assignments like Zbrush, or an understanding of anatomy.
It just makes me tired. And sad too. School should be about learning from someone who know's what their doing.
(Which I'm glad has happened in two of my classes with the same teacher at least)
This reminds me of someone :shifty:
Its a hard bitter pill to swallow. Admitting that she's wasted several years and a ton of money. From her portfolio it doesnt appear she's learned anything of game art. She would basically have to start from scratch. I couldnt blamer her for saying to hell with it.
That goes against the whole point of the argument.
The school did not equip her with the skills she needed, ie: what she payed for. Her portfolio is terrible. They did not [apparently] inform her of the requirements she would need to succeed. They just took her money and gave her As.
If your friends have great portfolios, then the college has done it's job and it's all on them. They have nothing to crusade, other than lamenting not being employed. They have all the tools necessary.
hey me too! But the guy it reminds me of didn't copy the tutorials word for word, he re-worded them in a unique way so when you try to follow his, it'll go wrong because its either missing a step or explained incorrectly.
Basically the best thing to do when you get his tutorials is to go online and find the source of where he reworded it from
I think a huge part of the argument is these school give all this hype about the amazing job placement and the amazing pay you will recieve upon graduating, and what's the underlying fact is that job placement could be that you are working part-time at Target after graduating. The AI I went to boasted a more than 80% job placement rate for the game art students, with the average earnings for new hires being 80k+....now that's a bunch of bull.
This story needs to be finished with:
"... and this is how I got a job in spite of what they've done to me"
"Look at all the other people who put in the hard work and got in without degrees"
"Don't go to these schools, starve them out, teach yourself and or go to the really good ones"
"Do your research anytime you give anyone money. Especially $80,000."
Instead it ends with:
"oh poor stripper girl, whats wrong with our world today, /apathetic shrug"
What a retard. She lacks a basic understanding of art, seems to has a four year olds interpretation of it. I love how she seems to be blaming the college for her output, even though she seems to know what 'industry standard' is. She seems angry, but not at herself. Also lol at the 'copyright infringement' comment. She really is not a very intelligent person.
Her 3D work isnt the worst, but its at the end of the portfolio. How the hell did she manage to output a render from 3DS Max in black and white? Does she mean she didn't texture the asset? Her graphic design work isn't actually that bad, it shows a working knowledge of working with vectors, why didn't she apply for a job in that field, or for a games job that required a graphic artist?
Stupid tart. I hope she reads this thread, and realises its on her, even though for-profit colleges are run by thieves. She can't use this as an excuse.
I am analyzing the school curriculum based on her artwork :
first term : fundamental drawing - and some other art theory class <- in fact this is very common slow paced curriculum in most university.
what missing? game art fundamental. and milestone final project.
pre production class is important, people just can throw as many impossible ideas from day one in school and break it down in a mean time.
I went trough the same way prob, even more hostile, my teacher ( in my first university) didn't allow me to make demoreel for final project. if i dont take another school, i would ended like her. gladly my tuition back then not even close fraction to what she paid.
Well her skill and personal sense of responsibility aside, the point is the last part of your argument. She shouldn't have been getting A's at all. She realizes it (when that came to be is up for debate), but the school didn't. And that was there job. To slap her down if she's making crap, and then guide her in the right direction.
It's easy to say she should have known better, but I bet alot of us didn't. Most of us didn't realize the meager education we were getting until half way through our education, or later. If I hadn't already been doing the art stuff on the side for fun anyway, I'd have been totally screwed (instead of just mostly
[wishful thinking]Schools shouldn't hold the hands of people going through them, but they should make sure that everyone is getting the education they need, and is not being deluded in the process. And if students drop the ball and don't do anything to help themselves then they should be told to GTFO. [/wishful thinking ]
Also overall her work sorta of got better but she lacked the initiative to push herself harder. Personally I think it comes down to two factors. The love for what you're doing and parenting. If you have no heart, its gonna show through your art. I put parenting there because I know the hardships my parents went through to get me to Canada and get a better life for myself and my siblings. She must have gotten everything on a golden plate and learned that "O HEY, people give me stuff so I can cruise through" On my hand, I gotta show everytime that what Im doing is an actual job. My parents are traditional, in the fact that they think a proper job is being a lawyer, doctor, engineer etc. you could say I'm the black sheep in my family but it was the culture they were born in, they support me in what I do but I try extra hard everytime to push myself to impress them. Thats sorta my motivation and if I fucked around in my college time, my parents would destroy the living shit out of me.
I just hate the fact that the media is portraying her as some sort of queen. Due to this her view on schools is just gonna get more inflated and the media doesn't care. Its just another story for them.
EDIT: There were a bunch of floaters like her in our first year and probably one of the best teachers I've had in my college time said FUCK YOU to them and failed them. Funny thing is two of them didnt learn and are coming back for another first year at college. The teacher didnt care how good your art was, he was there to help you and grow but he like 50% of the actual grade was could you follow instructions. He would critique and tear your work up but when he did give you a compliment you actually felt like you earned his respect.
EDIT: I am glad my peers told me about polycount. The wealth of information here is like fort knox.
The situation she's in now is again based on her beliefs as a typical student, if collegial institutions builds students up with false expectation, why would they necessarily think they're being lied to until after the fact when reality smacks them full in the face.. after all it's a college giving them assurances, a trusted establishment, and not some disgruntled mate of a mate they once knew worked for some company no-ones heard of.
With regards to the willingness of politicians.. it needs to be understood that banks underwrite the financing - it's where the money actually comes from, not the Government or educational institutions (they 'borrow' the funds from banks and we 'pay' it back plus interest). As banks have massive lobbying power they're going to do what's in their best interests and not ours. Her grievances are genuine in that case, shes just not going about it the right way.. but then the media loves sensationalism's and simple stories so maybe *this* is her calling and what cost her $70 grand to 'learn'
I sent her a message too and I've yet to get a response. I'm not even sure she wants to be in games anymore. I think she wants to change her career to modeling. I know everyone here has a strong opinion but unless we can offer a helping hand, then we're nothing but a bunch of douche bags sitting on our high horses looking down on her. We need to be Morpheus and guide her to the door.
In some ways I'm not that much different then her. I spent 60K on a degree and I have a lackluster portfolio. It was only until after I graduated that I found the this game art community.
So basically, if she does come asking for help, we should offer a helping hand.
I sent her a challenge. Come to polycount, post her art, develop new art and we will help her get there. No response.
What a poisonous, useless load of crap.
So her work isn't up to much - at least she had the balls to make her work public. When was the last time you posted anything, other than juvenile bullshit like this?
As Kat says, it's pretty obvious that she should have been informed of her skill level prior to starting the course, and that she should have been more dedicated to improving her skills on her own time, but was that outburst really necessary?
What about the guy who started the thread about positivity recently? He was in almost exactly the same situation, just with a better standard of work and lacking the dramatic legal 'battle' - how come you didn't weigh in on that one, call him a retard? Because he's not a stripper?
Get a fucking clue.
Which parent would even allow their child to attend that on a loan.
It's easy to rant but it'a a lot harder to solve a problem.
We at Polycount should be Problem Solvers. Not just for her but for every student, post grad, or aspiring artist.
I've already had a conversation with someone that currently goes to the school I went to and I helped them with resources and advice.
Everyone down to the dean knew of her and her antics, and everyone knew she didnt get it , but she still stood at it. When you tried to explain things to her it never sat in. When she was about to fail a class she would complain to all the adminstration until the administration just said "pass her" I know this first hand from many of the educators there...hell the old head figure (before he quit there) just told teachers flat out , hold her hand and pass her along.
While as other students tried these same tactics as her to be lazy and just pass they were promptly failed. But this girl cried wolf so many times that everyone just wanted her out of school. And lord and behold, years later she's still crying wolf?
The girl didnt learn her lesson, she countlessly sent me and other graduate friends (Who had made it or somewhat made it) in the field, messages to Sue AI with her because we had to learn shit on our own. And therefore we needed to sue Ai to get out money back.
I told this girl back in college that she needed to open her eyes and look at the online world because thats your real competition. There were no game jobs in FL. And if you wanted one you needed to look for one and practice.
This career is very similar in 1 regard to being a doctor...where as doctors spend 1000000 + hours studying books and medicine both in and out of school. We to must do the same to understand both 3d program and interfaces and intergrations and shaders and scripting, and then another 10000000+ hours to understand how to make nice artwork with it as well.
I honestly dont feel sorry for this girl. And I know many silent readers who knew her or went to school with her or directly taught her know I am not tip toeing around any of the subjects at hand.
I think at this point this conversation is WELL said and over.
Polycount I love you guys(and gals) to death. But honestly this is one of those cases were its better to leave it alone versus trying to help. To those of you who are sending her messages,you actions are honorable but honestly dont get upset if you dont get a response back or another excuse.
As some people said here, she dug her own grave and now she's stripping because of it.
Boo fucking hoo.
If I had joined PC a year earlier then I did, then I might be getting the same criticism as she is. I developed my drive not only because of my love for games but also because I had good friends with me all the way.
I agree with seforin that there is a certain point where people can't be helped. I know many people from my class that just didn't get it even when they got help. But like I said above, we should be problem solvers and find out what can be done to prevent people from getting cheated out of their money. We could promote schools that the community thinks produces the best results. We could also create and spread information to students or people looking for game education about what a person "really" needs to know about getting a job in the industry.
Your right though this conversation is pretty much done as she is probably switching careers from games to some type of modeling career.
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does someone have a crush? (wink) (wink)
Ugh, I got nothing nice to say.
I mean, watched the portfolio video, and she "taught" herself how to draw in photoshop? Rendering a "black and white" from 3ds? Doesn't even know how to give a texture or material? Most aspiring artist start with OpenSourced programs and aleast know how to do that in the first week.
I'm on the line with both the sides on the arguement saying that "she dug a hole and threw her clothes into along with $70000" and "for $70000, the school shouldn't have made her take a loan that large or atleast taught her better".
Her lack of the drive to make it stands seperate from the fact this school costs more than it's worth, and that they oversell themselves to impressionable young boys and girls who want to get into the industry.