That people have either poor info about real world industry realities or are misled by for-profit "schools".
A former co-worker has 4 years of working experience but got laid off, has a hard time getting back or getting relevant gigs so he's now decided to spend $50K+ for a 1 yr VFS program.
Why don't he just move to Vancouver and get any game or vfx jobs? His experience shouldn't be a tough sell. He's skills are not bad in my opinion.
I wanted to advice him but we're not close.
At least he didn't decide to go to DeVry as his original goal. He pronounced it as "Day Bree".
well, thats very idealistic and all, but the school would probably run out of business the next day if they started weeding out the students who'd never make it in the industry.
That's not really the case for most university art programs, the illustration and visual communications departments at my school (NIU) had about a 50% fail rate for each portfolio review. The first review was after your second semester of major classes (since you typically have two semesters before that of general art), and the second review was after your final major classes, passing for each required to continue/graduate.
It's a bit brutal and stressful, but overall it did a good job of weeding out those who weren't meant for the field. Of course, some people will find ways to slip through the cracks but that's the case in any field.
I'm self taught and while I've yet to get my first job on site at a studio, i don't regret it for a second. I'd probably just be in the same position with a massive debt.
I remember a tutor at the college i attended, who was really interested in my work. He said to me once that education just points you in the right direction, like it's merely a 'guide'. I've always believed in this, even today. With the vast amount of resources out there which are available to anyone, I'm honestly surprised more people don't just take things into their own hands.
Granted there are more complicated subjects which obviously the education has a lot of worth, but these generally don't attract idiots who'll blame the schools for their failure to acquire a job.
I go to the same school ... and let me say, the school honestly fails at teaching. I'm about to graduate and I am learning stuff now that should of been taught in intro classes ... The best students in that school are self taught. Those guys are amazing at what they do because they practice outside of school.
I'm only improving now because I don't want to get stuck stripping for money to pay off my debt, I know I would get shitty tips.
I go to the same school ... and let me say, the school honestly fails at teaching. I'm about to graduate and I am learning stuff now that should of been taught in intro classes ... The best students in that school are self taught. Those guys are amazing at what they do because they practice outside of school.
I'm only improving now because I don't want to get stuck stripping for money to pay off my debt, I know I would get shitty tips.
I would tip yah, but you need to work for it! OH!
But seriously Austin that sucks to hear the school hasnt improved at all , I hope you will take this as a eye opener to really look into practicing outside of school and self teaching.
This discussion is a great read for me since I am interested in going to study for a Degree next year. While I understand that there are multiple schools of thought here on the usefulness of tertiary education in this field, I'm not so interested in the actual piece of paper itself, but that hopefully I will have some worldliness beaten into me.
After all I've already wasted (not so much wasted, as it's me doing things the wrong way) my money on a "Game Qualification." Thus arrogantly cursed the industry for my own incompetence and then rot at another dead-end job.
Although the one thing I've learned (or convinced myself of stupidly) is that even though I appreciate good art I've never loved it like you guys do. Almost every piece of art I've created has had a sense of function, especially in a game sensibility. These are the qualities of a designer more than an artist, and well, I always knew I wanted to end up being one anyway.
What to study though? Definitely not another "Game Design Course" that will be useless to me should I have a completely uncharacteristic change of heart.
(and at the loss that I know some lurker old instructors/students/deans/whatever are reading this and it will probably black ball me forever)
You are spending your 50-60-70-80-90k Tuition making professional contacts with other people.
Not learning new techniques etc to get a job.
To further explain things. They had mentioned that it was best to practice on your own.
What they didnt explain was that was the only way you would even learn the basics.
I had to learn Zbrush from a Friend who would mentor me in the program just so I could get past the interface.
I had to sleep over for 3 days at a friends house just to learn how to do lighting/rendering
I had to spend a week of driving to Ft lauderdale to downtown miami (roughly a 45-hour and a half drive depending) To learn Unreal from a friend who was a unreal scripter/moder.
I would often time's Spend almost entire weekends camping out at the School dorms just to learn what I could from polyhertz who spent all of his time learning new techniques and scripts and programs at a incredibly fast rate.
My point to this?
Never once did a teacher or educator of any kind offer this kinda help. The school had a very advanced "click" (That many work at shadows and darkness now) That I was not part of. Nor did I want to be a part of. And due to it my overall "Asking for help" Is like posting a thread randomly here on polycount and posting a "cube" and asking how to make a character. I got the same amount of help/attention unless If I cried bloody murder like miss Howard (Aka StripperMcgee)
The school was one giant joke and is the biggest reason im in debt right now. I on the other hand through years of patience (getting my ass handed to me over and over) through polycount and my friends Ive made through here (in real life and out) I got a job and now I work for a big studio on real games.
Never once was I given anything through that school or game design course etc. It had to be earned through blood sweat and tears.
and if you honestly think otherwise....well maybe being a stripper isnt a bad career move for you afterall.
AI taught me how to use Maya & Max, I just couldn't grasp 3d at all before going.
I took care of most of my pre-reqs at a community college so in hind site the only BS classes I can remember were the audio class and a few of the graphic design classes that still operated in the pre-photoshop mindset. Ok, Acting & Movement was sort of a BS class, it should of been called "Learn life lessons from Mr. Carnegie" (pretty much a clone of George Carlin)
wow AI just got crazier.
Can't say my experience was bad though (graduated '03). But you really had to pick the right teachers. Can't stress this enough. The earlier you realize this, the better. The quality level available ranged from awesome teacher with industry XP to utterly terrible clueless dolt.
Other problem back then was that while you could specialize, nothing really pushed you (and almost nobody taught you) to create an awesome 3D reel. That was one of the biggest problems when I graduated
Glad that Im striving to get better than rely on college giving me a diploma and whining about why I dont have a job. Always felt that college/uni teachers were a guide and a great resource for one to one help and critique along with peers.
I'm tossed up on this... On the hand its good that this issue is getting more light. Schools aggressively go after people with low information and do everything within their power to get them not to think about the total cost.
But on the other I'm not sure her circus sideshow makes for a good poster child. Even after all her ramblings about her ordeal, she still seems pretty clueless as to why she was unable to land a job and sees fit to blame external forces for her poor showing.
Design jobs aren't just walked into they are WORKED into. By that I mean you demonstrate you can do the job with proof, not a degree. She still seems to think that the degree was proof, which it never was. At best school is a means to create the proof or at least begin understanding the basics to start building the proof.
Looking at the some of the requirements for the open positions I don't see too many hard and fast "must have a degree in game art design". Most say:
two to four years related experience and/or training; or equivalent combination of education and experience.
So that tells me she didn't even bother researching what the jobs required before going to school. You think a newbie would live eat and sleep job openings... but she didn't even read them?
It's been my experience most of the Game Design (not level design) positions are posted externally but filled mostly internally. Most of the entry level Game Design positions are very much total grunt work you would have more creative freedom getting coffee and washing cars.
I'm also not a big fan of her using "the cause" to also promote her live webcam shows (that explains the low income, online stripping pays a lot worse than on stage live dancing). It seems like there's a double motive here in promoting "the cause". That just kind of taints it all...
But I have a question. What was the reason to post such discouragement?
Its not like one girl who couldnt find work ended up selling her body for few bucks a week would make any difference to those who desire and are passionate about Game Development / Game Arts, but still.
This field is about 4 things, learn, adapt, practice, repeat.
and I dont think she've done anyone of those things.
It's not very hard getting informed though... not in these days. If you really curious about a career, the internet offers you an awful lot of information nowadays. Especially in our industry, where people use computers and the net daily, there's plenty of online information. People can search for forums, job postings, companies' job requirement, etc.
You have to be pretty dumb to study something and never bother going online and trying to find out if your own skillset matches what is required.
Even when I studied I realized I had to spend my own time to learn more and more and more. Just as people who are already IN the industry need to spend time to learn more and more on their own to stay up to date. College is not about getting spoon fed - nowhere. But I gotta admit, there's many distractions in Ft. Lauderdale that keep you from studying
A diploma doesn't guarantee a job 0_0'
why the hell have ive been doing nothing all these years and thinking i would get joboffers from everywhere when i graduate
on the serious side, why the hell does education have to cost so much in the US
This got me thinking...are there any free, public universities there in the US? If so, how do you apply and how do they rate against the paid ones? Public high school edutation is pure shit here in Brazil but on the other hand we have free quality universities, they're a lot better than paid ones, specially on technical courses like medicin and engineering. They're a lot harder to get in too.
if you want anything more than a high school education in the US you have to pay for it.....and after fees and other bullshit even the public schools are far from free
She has shown her art, and this is the type of art that is created by those who need their hands to be held through school. Tis a shame.
wow. just wow. I don't even know what to say. she says she cant model, texture, animate, unwrap, use modifiers, etc. then at the end she admits she could have spent the 70,000 dollars and taught it all herself....then why didn't she do that? or did she just realize it too late.
I wanted to mention her art earlier but I didnt want people to think Im being a dick to this girl...well now you all know first hand.
PS= Yea there a fuck ton of distractions there, but if you spend all your damn time partying there, your gonna end up shaking your money maker never leaving that place. Trust this from someone who almost never made it out of FL to begin with!
I wanted to mention her art earlier but I didnt want people to think Im being a dick to this girl...well now you all know first hand.
PS= Yea there a fuck ton of distractions there, but if you spend all your damn time partying there, your gonna end up shaking your money maker never leaving that place. Trust this from someone who almost never made it out of FL to begin with!
Hahaha you are a gentlemen Seforin
Funny thing is that I played Halo through all my years and drank a ton of beer, and skipped classes to go on a trip to Ohio state to watch the OSU/Michigan game. I also played Halo professionally (Mlg), until I just stopped with all the distractions and worked on my art. I do agree with her that these schools will accept anyone, and fucks them over in the process. I always tell this joke,
"Can you pick up a pencil?...ok....you're in..." AI Admissions
She is crying wolf, and I think she is the wolf. She wasn't a go getter and doesn't have the drive/dedication it takes to push through it. She was fucked by AI, to a certain extent.
Edit: sorry for the crappy grammar, they didn't teach me enough at ai
guess she's hoping that if she whines loud enough she'll get the cash back and can live forever and ever as a princess in trailertown. or who knows, maybe she registers at polycount and starts posting! becomes a productive member and gets a gig at id or something.
I'm lucky though. I only have like 11k debt from my student days.
They gave her an A for it though, the rubbish that she's showing. The University is culpable in major dishonesty.
We kind of have that over here, exams are blatantly getting easier to help the littleuns, you dont want to traumatise them, or hurt their confidence, by telling them they are wrong, when from a certain point of view(a madmans) their answer could be right.
A diploma doesn't guarantee a job 0_0'
why the hell have ive been doing nothing all these years and thinking i would get joboffers from everywhere when i graduate
on the serious side, why the hell does education have to cost so much in the US
Diploma will work as a proof that you know how to do the stuff you are studing. Means practice and start making samples and all.
Diploma is not just one of those things that if you have it doesnt matter how good it is it will work for you...
Unless someone is in the dire need to hire a person based on their Diploma and not the Experience (where samples come in to ensure that you have been practicing and you have that pace/style of work they require)
Anyone here actually think of writing to her and inviting her to join the polycount community,instead of making fun of her profession,work or whatever. How about actually help her?
Anyone here actually think of writing to her and inviting her to join the polycount community,instead of making fun of her profession,work or whatever. How about actually help her?
Should make for a funny video on demand movie, nerds do an intervention to bring the stripper back to her geek old self.
We succeed then...she gives as free lap dances for doing a good deed.
Anyone here actually think of writing to her and inviting her to join the polycount community,instead of making fun of her profession,work or whatever. How about actually help her?
Yeah, I'm actually sending her a message right now to do just that.
If she wants to improve still, good for her. But I expect that the negative stigma in her mind attached to the industry would prevent her from trying again.
Your videos have been circulating over at polycount.com, an online community of game artists, and maybe it'd be a good idea to join the community, start working on your portfolio again and pursue the career you originally wanted to do.
There's more than a few guys over at polycount who have similar experiences with various Art Institutes, who've gone on to succeed in spite of their educational 'experiences' with AI. While your methods are pretty unorthodox, it's pretty ballsy of you to raise awareness of AI's business practices the way you have (especially given your current line of work) and if you put even half as much effort into practising and working on improving your skills, I'm sure you can actually land a gig doing something you want to do.
We have a reputation for being brutal with artwork critiques, but how else are people supposed to improve and progress their skills to an industry-ready standard? If you really want to get a job in the game industry as an artist, there's no better place you could be.
Check out the site, and if you're serious about getting a job in games, stop complaining, sign up and start posting work for critique - maybe we'll see you over there.
Replies
That people have either poor info about real world industry realities or are misled by for-profit "schools".
A former co-worker has 4 years of working experience but got laid off, has a hard time getting back or getting relevant gigs so he's now decided to spend $50K+ for a 1 yr VFS program.
Why don't he just move to Vancouver and get any game or vfx jobs? His experience shouldn't be a tough sell. He's skills are not bad in my opinion.
I wanted to advice him but we're not close.
At least he didn't decide to go to DeVry as his original goal. He pronounced it as "Day Bree".
I LOLed in silence.
if she put out she could be making that in a day.
That's not really the case for most university art programs, the illustration and visual communications departments at my school (NIU) had about a 50% fail rate for each portfolio review. The first review was after your second semester of major classes (since you typically have two semesters before that of general art), and the second review was after your final major classes, passing for each required to continue/graduate.
It's a bit brutal and stressful, but overall it did a good job of weeding out those who weren't meant for the field. Of course, some people will find ways to slip through the cracks but that's the case in any field.
Brian Nathanson
I'm self taught and while I've yet to get my first job on site at a studio, i don't regret it for a second. I'd probably just be in the same position with a massive debt.
I remember a tutor at the college i attended, who was really interested in my work. He said to me once that education just points you in the right direction, like it's merely a 'guide'. I've always believed in this, even today. With the vast amount of resources out there which are available to anyone, I'm honestly surprised more people don't just take things into their own hands.
Granted there are more complicated subjects which obviously the education has a lot of worth, but these generally don't attract idiots who'll blame the schools for their failure to acquire a job.
Thank you
I'm only improving now because I don't want to get stuck stripping for money to pay off my debt, I know I would get shitty tips.
I would tip yah, but you need to work for it! OH!
But seriously Austin that sucks to hear the school hasnt improved at all
She really is hideous. No wonder she doesn't rake it in as a stripper.
After all I've already wasted (not so much wasted, as it's me doing things the wrong way) my money on a "Game Qualification." Thus arrogantly cursed the industry for my own incompetence and then rot at another dead-end job.
Although the one thing I've learned (or convinced myself of stupidly) is that even though I appreciate good art I've never loved it like you guys do. Almost every piece of art I've created has had a sense of function, especially in a game sensibility. These are the qualities of a designer more than an artist, and well, I always knew I wanted to end up being one anyway.
What to study though? Definitely not another "Game Design Course" that will be useless to me should I have a completely uncharacteristic change of heart.
(and at the loss that I know some lurker old instructors/students/deans/whatever are reading this and it will probably black ball me forever)
You are spending your 50-60-70-80-90k Tuition making professional contacts with other people.
Not learning new techniques etc to get a job.
To further explain things. They had mentioned that it was best to practice on your own.
What they didnt explain was that was the only way you would even learn the basics.
I had to learn Zbrush from a Friend who would mentor me in the program just so I could get past the interface.
I had to sleep over for 3 days at a friends house just to learn how to do lighting/rendering
I had to spend a week of driving to Ft lauderdale to downtown miami (roughly a 45-hour and a half drive depending) To learn Unreal from a friend who was a unreal scripter/moder.
I would often time's Spend almost entire weekends camping out at the School dorms just to learn what I could from polyhertz who spent all of his time learning new techniques and scripts and programs at a incredibly fast rate.
My point to this?
Never once did a teacher or educator of any kind offer this kinda help. The school had a very advanced "click" (That many work at shadows and darkness now) That I was not part of. Nor did I want to be a part of. And due to it my overall "Asking for help" Is like posting a thread randomly here on polycount and posting a "cube" and asking how to make a character. I got the same amount of help/attention unless If I cried bloody murder like miss Howard (Aka StripperMcgee)
The school was one giant joke and is the biggest reason im in debt right now. I on the other hand through years of patience (getting my ass handed to me over and over) through polycount and my friends Ive made through here (in real life and out) I got a job and now I work for a big studio on real games.
Never once was I given anything through that school or game design course etc. It had to be earned through blood sweat and tears.
and if you honestly think otherwise....well maybe being a stripper isnt a bad career move for you afterall.
All that money and they never taught you how to strip.
I took care of most of my pre-reqs at a community college so in hind site the only BS classes I can remember were the audio class and a few of the graphic design classes that still operated in the pre-photoshop mindset. Ok, Acting & Movement was sort of a BS class, it should of been called "Learn life lessons from Mr. Carnegie" (pretty much a clone of George Carlin)
im just going to leave this here....her youtube channel one of the videos says she will be posting her demo reel
Can't say my experience was bad though (graduated '03). But you really had to pick the right teachers. Can't stress this enough. The earlier you realize this, the better. The quality level available ranged from awesome teacher with industry XP to utterly terrible clueless dolt.
Other problem back then was that while you could specialize, nothing really pushed you (and almost nobody taught you) to create an awesome 3D reel. That was one of the biggest problems when I graduated
Brandoom you are the Sexiest!!
...had to do it
Poor choice of words.
XDD Awesome!
But on the other I'm not sure her circus sideshow makes for a good poster child. Even after all her ramblings about her ordeal, she still seems pretty clueless as to why she was unable to land a job and sees fit to blame external forces for her poor showing.
Design jobs aren't just walked into they are WORKED into. By that I mean you demonstrate you can do the job with proof, not a degree. She still seems to think that the degree was proof, which it never was. At best school is a means to create the proof or at least begin understanding the basics to start building the proof.
Looking at the some of the requirements for the open positions I don't see too many hard and fast "must have a degree in game art design". Most say: So that tells me she didn't even bother researching what the jobs required before going to school. You think a newbie would live eat and sleep job openings... but she didn't even read them?
It's been my experience most of the Game Design (not level design) positions are posted externally but filled mostly internally. Most of the entry level Game Design positions are very much total grunt work you would have more creative freedom getting coffee and washing cars.
I'm also not a big fan of her using "the cause" to also promote her live webcam shows (that explains the low income, online stripping pays a lot worse than on stage live dancing). It seems like there's a double motive here in promoting "the cause". That just kind of taints it all...
But I have a question. What was the reason to post such discouragement?
Its not like one girl who couldnt find work ended up selling her body for few bucks a week would make any difference to those who desire and are passionate about Game Development / Game Arts, but still.
This field is about 4 things, learn, adapt, practice, repeat.
and I dont think she've done anyone of those things.
Money that could be starting a life/career is swapped for a overwhelming dept.
You have to be pretty dumb to study something and never bother going online and trying to find out if your own skillset matches what is required.
Even when I studied I realized I had to spend my own time to learn more and more and more. Just as people who are already IN the industry need to spend time to learn more and more on their own to stay up to date. College is not about getting spoon fed - nowhere. But I gotta admit, there's many distractions in Ft. Lauderdale that keep you from studying
<
Exhibit A right here.
why the hell have ive been doing nothing all these years and thinking i would get joboffers from everywhere when i graduate
on the serious side, why the hell does education have to cost so much in the US
She has shown her art, and this is the type of art that is created by those who need their hands to be held through school. Tis a shame.
wow. just wow. I don't even know what to say. she says she cant model, texture, animate, unwrap, use modifiers, etc. then at the end she admits she could have spent the 70,000 dollars and taught it all herself....then why didn't she do that? or did she just realize it too late.
She seemed very comfortable in front of the camera there, even in that little mid-driff bearing top. I really think she's found her calling.
PS= Yea there a fuck ton of distractions there, but if you spend all your damn time partying there, your gonna end up shaking your money maker never leaving that place. Trust this from someone who almost never made it out of FL to begin with!
Hahaha you are a gentlemen Seforin
Funny thing is that I played Halo through all my years and drank a ton of beer, and skipped classes to go on a trip to Ohio state to watch the OSU/Michigan game. I also played Halo professionally (Mlg), until I just stopped with all the distractions and worked on my art. I do agree with her that these schools will accept anyone, and fucks them over in the process. I always tell this joke,
"Can you pick up a pencil?...ok....you're in..." AI Admissions
She is crying wolf, and I think she is the wolf. She wasn't a go getter and doesn't have the drive/dedication it takes to push through it. She was fucked by AI, to a certain extent.
Edit: sorry for the crappy grammar, they didn't teach me enough at ai
I'm lucky though. I only have like 11k debt from my student days.
We kind of have that over here, exams are blatantly getting easier to help the littleuns, you dont want to traumatise them, or hurt their confidence, by telling them they are wrong, when from a certain point of view(a madmans) their answer could be right.
Diploma will work as a proof that you know how to do the stuff you are studing. Means practice and start making samples and all.
Diploma is not just one of those things that if you have it doesnt matter how good it is it will work for you...
Unless someone is in the dire need to hire a person based on their Diploma and not the Experience (where samples come in to ensure that you have been practicing and you have that pace/style of work they require)
Should make for a funny video on demand movie, nerds do an intervention to bring the stripper back to her geek old self.
We succeed then...she gives as free lap dances for doing a good deed.
Under "Family", click "Buy" and enjoy.
Yeah, I'm actually sending her a message right now to do just that.