Boy Scouts Gaming Pin: Good/Bad
polycounter lvl 18
So, Im sure you all have heard. If not.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/cubscouts/awards/boys/sanda/video_games.aspx
So other than Scouts being a Mormon sponsored anti-gay group that gets US government support. Is this really in the spirit of Boyscouts? In example, I don't remember any awards for watching or setting up a TV. Explaining the rating system of movies.
Do we really need a pin for this? Its so consumerist and commercially based. How does it promote the supposed of making of a better citizen?
(FWIW, I got out of Scouts early on after cubscouts. Hated the fakeness of it and the bullies)
Here is a good critique.
http://www.olpglobalkids.org/2010/04/boy_scouts_create_gaming_pin_a.html#more
[quote[
Message #1: Video Games Are Dangerous and Need Regulation
Message #2: The Only Learning in Games is from "Educational / Edutainment Games
Message #3: Videos Games Are about Consumerism[/quote]
Lets be honest, I think its a plea of the BS to appeal to new generations they hope. "Oh look being a cubscout is neat cause you get points for playing games. I wanna join!"
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/cubscouts/awards/boys/sanda/video_games.aspx
So other than Scouts being a Mormon sponsored anti-gay group that gets US government support. Is this really in the spirit of Boyscouts? In example, I don't remember any awards for watching or setting up a TV. Explaining the rating system of movies.
Do we really need a pin for this? Its so consumerist and commercially based. How does it promote the supposed of making of a better citizen?
(FWIW, I got out of Scouts early on after cubscouts. Hated the fakeness of it and the bullies)
Here is a good critique.
http://www.olpglobalkids.org/2010/04/boy_scouts_create_gaming_pin_a.html#more
[quote[
Message #1: Video Games Are Dangerous and Need Regulation
Message #2: The Only Learning in Games is from "Educational / Edutainment Games
Message #3: Videos Games Are about Consumerism[/quote]
Lets be honest, I think its a plea of the BS to appeal to new generations they hope. "Oh look being a cubscout is neat cause you get points for playing games. I wanna join!"
Replies
As an Eagle Scout and a game artist... I really don't know what to say about the whole video game pin..
However, as a Eagle Scout and an individual, seeing just makes me want to say fuck you.
[ame]
"Since the mid-1990s, The Scout Association has been clear and unequivocal in our equal opportunities policy and practice especially regarding sexual orientation, as befitting our role in contemporary society. "
They also cater for different religions in the UK "Variations of the Promise are available for different religions."
Not sure about the non-religious like me though! I loved being in Scouts and never really saw a religious undertone, we prayed in school as well but it didn't mean any thing to me. That Penn and Teller show does seem pretty scary, is there an alternative to Scouts in the USA?
Oh yeah, a gaming merit badge is bullshit though, go build a fire and burn meat on it then get lost in the woods!
Oh yeah cause Penn n Teller are totally unbiased sources who just call it how it is....
Anyways not to thread-jack I, also an eagle scout, think stuff like this is total bullshit (the pin that is). Its just gonna give the scouts more ample reason not to get out and do things. I'm a big guy like a really big guy lol and I still love hiking/camping....Hell I even work in food-staff in the kitchen down at Camp Emerson CA...
Loved my experience in scouts and loved the fact that I had to work my ass off to get my Eagle because it made it that much more prestigious that I had it. So this kind of stuff just points to all sorts of "Hey lets make Boy Scouts Easier"
It doesn't matter. The facts remain the same. They officially don't want atheists, and gays. And do get a large portion of their funding from the Mormon church. They also use tax money. Which is against the idea of having the private/public separation.
As I said to flaagan. If you don't like it. Do something about it. Get involved and change it. Dont get frustrated when people call out what are facts about how scouting stands.
Agreed.
would anyone want that kid?
yeah, Cub scouts is easy mode. I see this as a good thing, studying games with your parents and learning about the ESRB, learning self control and not playing games for 10 hours straight after school, etc...
Update: Actually, I see they have a badge for computing. That's pretty on par with video gaming IMO. I know computing is a slightly different beast, but still, it has just as much to do with survival.
My memory isn't as clear when I think back to my days as a cub, but as a Boy Scout, merit badges were typically very involving and quite often, challenging. I suspect to earn this pin, the kiddos will need to learn things about the history of games and what goes into making them and what social impact they may have. I think that would be great. And it might even open up the eyes of some parents out there. Kiddos are always going to play video games, regardless if there is a pin or merit badge being offered. So why not educate them a little more in the subject matter?
"So other than Scouts being a Mormon sponsored anti-gay group that gets US government support."
"If you don't like it. Do something about it. Get involved and change it. Dont get frustrated when people call out what are facts about how scouting stands."
(Just because you call something a "fact" doesn't make it a fact, nor does it mean that you've presented the entire picture. If you don't like the rules, start your own club. To try and change an organization's core values from within, to suit your own, is equally as intolerant as the organization you are against).
Scouting was/is one of the best organizations I've ever been a part of. It exposed me to challenges and adventure I would not have gotten elsewhere. It is more than tall silly socks and merit badges. I've climbed and repelled cliff faces, made my own hunting/fishing equipment from scratch and used it, hiked 20+ miles a day in the mountains, had close encounters with bear, elk, and other wildlife. I learned skills that ultimately lead to my being able to save my mother's life when I was 13 years old. I've learned about the true spirit of Scouting, cheerfulness in service to others. There will always be corruption and idiots in any organization, but you'll be hard pressed to find a better program for youth and adults alike. And if all you "think" you know about the organization is founded on comments like oXYnary's, then you know nothing of Scouting.
So you don't oppose the stance that the boyscout organisation has against homosexuality and atheism?
ditto.
Anyhow, the pin is awesome. I support it
Odyssey of the Mind, it's the nerdier version of scouts, I built a robot in 7th grade for a competition.
Haha. I was in that. My group won the regionals.
depends where they do it.
dunno about the US, but in the UK they've been on this modernisation trip for years. I mean, they let girls in and everything. Eeeurgh. Girls.
the Bloods and Crips are born entirely from young black youth not being able to participate in the Boy Scouts program back in the early 50`s.
Why not educate them on movies as well? TV? After all kids are going to do those as well. At least a computing pin has a purpose since it so integrated to interact with society these days.
These are facts. Im sorry you feel offended about them. I'm glad you got something out of scouts. I have said nothing against you, I have said something against the organization itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies
Now, if you want to say somehow my facts are only part of the story. Please explain. You gave nothing other than your opinion of such.
Secondly,
If you want to comment that changing something to fit your own values is as bad as the initial rules.
Intolerance
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intolerance
So per the guidelines of whom can join, its about inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. It would be subtracting rules, not adding more. So it would not be just to fit "one person". Intolerance does not work that way.
I know more than you think it seems. To know the hypocrisy of the organization. I was in Cub Scouts and boyscouts. I got out of boyscouts because of the jackasses involved.
As for the badge, I just see it as them trying to be relevant to children's interests these days really, allot of the badges even back in my day were quite questionable :P
konstruct is a full fledged member of the freemasons. A secret, underground society of half-mole, half-man, half-giraffe creatures that cast spells on Earth dwellers from their altars made of dead kittens. Hence the name...think about it.
i basically have the same opinion as oxy, but honestly don't give a shit. anything that makes people more aware of video games is a good thing for me.
don't you think this is an experience that all human beings should be able to participate in? granted you don't need an organization to do any of that if your really driven to do that. I guess this all points back to the core values thing. Getting the Scouts system to change their views on homosexuality might make some people happy, but piss off a ton more.
Its a right -vs- left micro argument. or I guess I should say, religion vs. non-religion micro argument.
At the end of the day, the boy scout debate, is really just the gay rights debate. Which isn't really a debate. Its just a bigoted stance that one day we will look back at and be embarrassed as a culture. much like women's rights.
(maybe that's why the girl scouts exist- someone should start up the gay scouts :P)
I don't think that's fair at all. It is not a gay rights debate. It's a debate on whether private clubs should, or should even be able to, remain exclusive to whatever draconian requirements they've decided.
To get back to the original subject, I don't see a problem with the badge. Playing video games or learning about them will not rot these otherwise perfect children. Knowledge is generally not a bad thing, even knowledge of such an awful subject.
*edit* - having said all that, what other groups aren't allowed into the scouts? someone said they're letting girls in now?
Read this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Baden-Powell-Lives-Hero-William-Hillcourt/dp/0963432001/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272996089&sr=1-1
Yep. Except. They use public facilities and get free work from the US government (via Army). And that's where the conflict is. So if they want to have such, then they should accept no favors and not seek special disposition and status. As well as drop the idea of making the president honorary head of such.
You cant have your cake and eat it too.
A private club, that excludes individuals based on sexual orientation, shouldn't qualify for monetary government support *cough* marriage *cough*
I think were all saying the same shit, but internet debates always turn into a game of telephone.
If scouts was a reinacting Fallout, I would join again.
any entrenched societal ideals in america are the product of barely contained hatred and a directed attempt to make innocent people suffer
Oxy, private clubs are churches. The debate about government money is a valid one, but it is not as cut and dry as you want it to be.
I mean, if i had kids they wouldn't be scouts, fuck that socially backwards shit, but it's not like there's human sacrifices or anything going on. Just outdated social ideals.
This thread feels like it's cruising into locked-ville
Okay just to clear this one up
Yes the BSA does get a decent amount of money from the church, but it does not come out of Church Tithing or donations or even the Church's Budget, but rather out of the members own pocket. The members decide what they want to pay and then that money is sent to the scout district office.
It's called the Friend's of Scouting Program. Then from the district office money is reapportioned back to the LDS troops where it is needed and anything else is then used on other non LDS troop affairs and infrastructure etc etc.
--EDIT--
The reason they do this is because by law the LDS church can't hold fundraisers that involve selling specific BSA product (such as the popcorn drives) because the church is tax exempt due to its Religious Institution Status. Friends of Scouting is their way of gaining funds to support their scout troops.
Lets be honest, I think its a plea of the BS to appeal to new generations they hope. "Oh look being a cubscout is neat cause you get points for playing games. I wanna join!"[/QUOTE]
Uh... you just pissed off a lot of people...
achievement unlocked +1
20 campfires started.
10 tents erected.
5 old lady's helped to side of street.
As a note, the military also raises your pay grade and enlisted rank (if I remember right) if you successfully completed the Eagle Scout program.
Why? Because it teaches survival skills, leadership and self reliance. Its that reason that the government grants funding. Its trying to culture future military.
Also not all scout troupes receive funding from the any of the Mormon churches..
On that note, it doesn't matter who the hell the video game merit badge is for, its bullshit. Video games have nothing to do with survival, leadership or self-sufficiency and thus has no part as a scout badge. BUT given the fact that the scouts enrollment/attendance ratings have been steadily declining for a long time its no surprise.
Its a gimmick to get kids that otherwise wouldn't join the scouts to join in hopes that they can be exposed to all the other cool shit that you get to do and then stay for that reason vs video games. Its bait and switch, and its not like 90% of group/membership based organizations don't do that or haven't done that at some point in their history.
Justin and ZacD (further down) : Touche.
I concede that with that in mind there is validity in it being a merit badge aside from my original take on it being a gimmick.
I just thought I'd go ahead and let everyone know we're reading this, and that the topic is the boy scouts offering a merit badge for videogames.
You're welcome to try your hand at derailing this thread with anti-religious non-sense if you've been getting your fix of Polycount a little too much lately and need a break. We don't mind helping you out with that.
Respect the other members of the forums, cool? You never know who believes in what.
Anyway, a badge on playing games is pretty funny when its right next to Woggle making, camping, tent raising and fire making.
Scouts is basically about being a better person, so being able to manage your time and learn how to play video games "responsibly" could be considered part of it.
They have merit badges in boyscouts for personal finance, family life, emergency preparedness, to, golf, Graphic arts, Law, Radio, reading, photography, and journalism. So some of them are more career options or sports.
EDIT:
There's no fun in fundamentalism.
Just thinking out loud really. Not in any way trying to contribute to this topic at all, it's far too messy for me.
I'd have to go home and look at my merit badges, cause I've got a lot more cool experiences from getting them (and Boy Scouts in general). There were plenty that involved sitting indoors doing generic stuff, but there were plenty more that involved getting up and getting out. I have no problem with the idea of a video game merit badge, though I question the merit (sorry, had to) of giving badges for something the kids would be doing to get away from working on getting badges.
In general, my experience going up through the ranks was that you had to *earn* everything you got. I was very fortunate that the adult leaders who were in charge of my reviews took them very seriously, as when I reached the ranks that I could do reviews of younger Scouts, I found the newer adults to be willing to let things slide.