Looking for advice from any Japanese speakers, residents.
Hi there,
I'm considering the massive undertaking of learning Japanese. I know learning any new language is a pretty mammoth task but from what I understand, Japanese is one of the more advanced to learn.
I'm keen to learn for a number of reasons. Firstly, I've always considered Japan as somewhere I would like to live and work, or at least visit for an extended period of time. I'm just finishing up my degree, which was something I wanted to obtain to help if I do decide to move to another country but I feel it's important to at least know a fair bit of the language if I'm planning to visit, and while I'm sure fluency can only come from actually living day to day in Japan, I would love to get as fluent as possible before I even consider relocating.
I've enjoyed learning languages before, I learned German while at school and while I'm far from fluent, it's certainly helped at times when on vacation.
I'm just wondering how those of you who can speak/read/write it went about learning?
Ideally I'd like to reach a recognized standard rather than just be able to 'get by', obviously I'm not expecting to have a working ability to read write and speak Japanese in a couple of days, but I want to make sure I get off on the right foot.
Is it best to get a personal tutor? Go to a class? Get audiobooks?
One thing that concerns me is that you can actually take University degrees in Japanese... I'm certainly not in a position to take 3 years out to do another degree!
I'm considering the massive undertaking of learning Japanese. I know learning any new language is a pretty mammoth task but from what I understand, Japanese is one of the more advanced to learn.
I'm keen to learn for a number of reasons. Firstly, I've always considered Japan as somewhere I would like to live and work, or at least visit for an extended period of time. I'm just finishing up my degree, which was something I wanted to obtain to help if I do decide to move to another country but I feel it's important to at least know a fair bit of the language if I'm planning to visit, and while I'm sure fluency can only come from actually living day to day in Japan, I would love to get as fluent as possible before I even consider relocating.
I've enjoyed learning languages before, I learned German while at school and while I'm far from fluent, it's certainly helped at times when on vacation.
I'm just wondering how those of you who can speak/read/write it went about learning?
Ideally I'd like to reach a recognized standard rather than just be able to 'get by', obviously I'm not expecting to have a working ability to read write and speak Japanese in a couple of days, but I want to make sure I get off on the right foot.
Is it best to get a personal tutor? Go to a class? Get audiobooks?
One thing that concerns me is that you can actually take University degrees in Japanese... I'm certainly not in a position to take 3 years out to do another degree!
Replies
I used http://smart.fm/home for learning kana and currently using to learn kanji, although there are literally 100's of other resources you could use that would get the job done. The important thing is spending time to practice it, not where you practice from.
This is what I'm reading to learn grammar and stuff; http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/ and this is what I use to listen to how things are said; http://www.japanesepod101.com/
(they got like a 1000 podcasts).
This is what I plan to use sometime in the future when I learn a bit more; http://www.language-exchanges.org/
This is what I did use to chat to some others studying Japanese/native Japanese speakers, until it became a huge timesink and some days I'd waste hours just chatting in that damn chat room about non-Japanese related things
Also planning on visiting Japan later this year.
edit: sorry, this is not advice from a Japanese resident but felt like posting it anyway!
And I wasn't necessarily looking for advice solely from people living in Japan, just anyone who has some experience learning it.
It's good to know there are some worthwhile online offerings, to be honest I was expecting a response along the lines of 'don't even think about teaching yourself, the only way to learn is 10 years of classes'. The general consensus online is that it is an insanely difficult thing to learn and while I don't doubt that, it's refreshing to hear a success story from someone who has been using online material to learn.
Many thanks for the links.
And the topic title shoud read 'advice FROM Japanese residents/speakers' no idea why i wrote such a nonsensical title.
Thanks again
Just a quick question though,
when you've learned (or started to learn) the hiragana / katakana, which I understand are the little 'bits' that make up words... ku, wa, e, etc. How do you then know what the words are?
For example... Sakura (one of the few words I know, cherry blossom right?) would be made up of Sa-Ku-Ra, but where do I learn that those three bits of hiragana/katakana make up the word sakura and what the word means?
Hopefully I've explained that well enough.
Ok so I'm kinda confused as to the order to learn things in.
So I should learn the Hiragana/Katakana first : all the syllable bits..
I presume this is where you mean losing the Romanji Blenderhead? As in, learn to recognize Kana rather than see them as english syllables?
Then after I know the Hiragana/Katakana, should I just look at word lists for the Kana? Smart.FM has something called 'Core 2000' should I just move onto them?
Then after that, learn the grammar right?
As I said earlier, I get how I should be learning the Kana, just wondering how I actually learn words rather than just syllables.
Sorry this thread has turned into a Japanese lesson.
I dont presume to know anything, but to learn the words I would think all you would need is a dictionary. The hard part I think is learning the verbs and their suffix's, you'd need a separate dictionary for that.
The hardest thing to me about really mastering Japanese is to break the internal translation from Japanese to English rather than truly integrating the Japanese words as new vocabulary in my brain.
I bet that doesn't make much sense... suffice to say I personally found learning Japanese to be so time consuming and difficult in college that I ended up having to make a choice between Art and Japanese, I chose Art.
Good luck.
What I did was swapped all my music for Japanese music, gradually stopped using sub-titles for movies and changed some of my apps to full Japanese. Singing songs helps too (60's ~ 70's pop songs for me
I start etiquette classes in July, got one teacher for actually study and one conversational instructor. After a while, it might be best to get a tutor or private instructor, you're paying for it, so you pay more attention (usually).
As people suggest, start with grammar. Japanese is an insanely complex language, but the grammar is key. Once you have control of Japanese grammar, it acts as a base for learning all the other stuff.
I personally practiced katakana and hiragana on Mixi - a Japanese social networking website that only runs in Japanese.
Also there are some great learning apps on the iPhone, which recently I have started using again. Try JapaneseFlip
I learned hiragana and katakana from Yoshi's Story on the N64.
Slow and steady is the way to go. A lot of people will study intensely for a few months, then decide to have a "break" 1 month later they have become rusty and the momentum is totally lost, then they will need to spend a month just reviewing everything they had learned before. Its a vicious cycle.
Case in point, I learnt hiragana/katakana on/off a few times, each time having a lengthy break in between, only to totally forget them and then I'll have to start from the beginning again :P
I'd usually have a break afterwards simply because I was shit scared to move onto kanji, which I heard frighting stories about "there's over 50,0000 kanji characters, its impossible to learn them all!!" and the whole "each kanji character has several different readings depends on which characters they a placed next to yada yada"
One day I stumbled upon a book "Remembering the Kanji by James W. Heisig which after reading about the methodology, decided to give it ago.
Some purist might disagree with the way you learn kanji in that book, but for me..it worked surprisingly well. Most importantly it broke down the mystical barrier of learning kanji, and made the process enjoyable/fun.
To keep this post from turning into my life story :P Long story short, it took me 9months of learning/reviewing 10 kanji characters per day, having zero breaks but I completed all 2042 kanji characters and I remember a good 90%+ of them
So if your serious about undertaking the massive task of learning Japanese, I'd say just keep chipping away at it, day by day..then one day you will surprise yourself with how much you know
It's also good drive to have a reason for learning Japanese, in my case its the anime/music/games
Good luck!
I learned some of the basics and hiragana/katakana when I was younger(since i couldn't accept the fact that I had to wait for months for half-assed video game translations XD), and since I use to watch a lot of Anime and sometimes import japanese games I was able to pick up quite a lot of the language without putting much effort into it.
I can totally second that basic grammar is the place to start, and that you should look into hiragana/katakana once you've got yourself a bit of general orientation.
"Japanese is Possible" has helped me a lot. It's a lot more fun than usual books because it uses phrases from games and animes rather than the generic "tanaka-san goes to the convenience store" stuff... Sure, you're eventually going to need the "boring" stuff too, but you can still do that afterwards. In my opinion it's a very awesome introduction to the language(Though you'll still need to look over a "proper" programm/book later). You can find it here: http://maktos.jimmyseal.net/jip.php
I also second the "songs are a great way to learn" thing.
http://www.tbns.net/knuckles/ and this is for learning Kana and later Kanji. Best approach ever, be sure to try it out :-D
There's also a NDS game called "My Japanese Coach". It's not perfect but it's still a great thing to look into.
Picking up the basics of the spoken language isn't very hard - it's actually a really easy language to learn in my opinion. There are a couple of confusing things, like several different ways to count numbers, but the basic grammar is quite simple.
Reading/Writing is the harder part... it's just a ton of effort
As soon as you have some basics just start using them. Watch your movies in japanese with subs and little by little you'll start understanding stuff even without the subs. Try playing your games in japanese, at least some of them (though you'll want to pick one that doesn't require you to know too many kanjis to be somewhat playable).
By doing that you can get an actual feel for the language and learning everything else from then on will be a whole lot easier.
My japanese is far from perfect but I believe I was able to learn quite a lot this way without too much effort. I'm not very advanced with reading and since I have no one to talk to in japanese, I have no experience at speaking it either, but I usually understand around 60-90% of my japanese animes and songs and i keep picking up new stuff all the time.
Good luck
Theres a far better dictionary than kotoba called simply "japanese", it was on sale a while back on the appstore, not sure about now.
There is some good advice in this thread. I think you are in the enviable position of having so many tools at your disposal that simply weren't around when I came here, most notably electronic dictionaries and apps that help you do flash cards. This means learning Japanese basically just requires an iPhone.
Well, that and being thrust into the environment it's self. It always helps to get a bit of practice in
One thing I'd advise against - unless you really have the time - is writing in Japanese (you know, on paper). Just stick to keyboard input, because simply, people rarely write here. Most Japanese people I know have real trouble remembering how to write kanji.
For now at home, exposure is what you need. Go buy some children's games in full hiragana, buy some music from eBay and get some movies, and not just anime. It's something that should not be rushed. I met people who've been here much longer than I have and don't know squat. I am sure Hawken being in Tokyo have met people like that too, it's the environment you're in that makes the difference.
Jump on Skype and talk to people from different areas. Learning all the "bens" is pretty funny. My cousins from Tokyo can't understand my uncles and father in law up here in Iwate, they can't say a "gna" and a few other strange things. I have a hard time understanding my grandmother (as does everyone else, but her sons). When I went to Aomori, they speak different too and Okinawans have their own language. From what I've listened, all those CD's and tape books have that Tokyo-ben going on, city talk I guess.
Fall is the best time to come over, cheaper than summer. If you have no place to stay, it will be expensive and my personal recommendation is to GTFO of Tokyo and go to a small country town.
Just a point, for some people writing things out actually helps them remember better. I personally didnt write it out on paper, but while learning kana I did mentally write it out using the proper stroke order.
Thats just for kana of course since most characters only have like 1-3 strokes, kanji is another story
Everyone has different learning preferences so if someone's advice is not working for you, try to think of a way that would. Just don't think "it's impossible".
Hey, you sound like me! Thats exactly what I did too
$13 is cheap for a dictionary like "Japanese" - any alternative would set you back hundreds of dollars.
EDIT::
How long have you been here Hawken, and how well do you think your Japanese is? How often did you study? I was under the impression you've been here 7+ years.
How's work going over there rasmus? We gonna see more from TLG at E3?
I agree that you'll learn more quickly if you throw yourself in at the deep end and go and live in Japan, but I think this is more true for speaking/listening and vocabulary skills. I remember arriving in Kyoto for the first time and having to telephone the university to ask someone to come and meet me at the station. I'd been learning the language for two years, but I still found it very difficult to keep up with the pace of a real conversation, particularly on the phone. I made a lot of Japanese friends and all my classes at the uni over there were in Japanese too, so I quickly gained a lot of confidence and by the end of the year over there I was speaking pretty fluently and able to read the newspaper etc.
I still think you can learn a lot of the basics/structure of Japanese by teaching yourself, but you'd have to be very strict with yourself to make proper progress. I used a lot of flash cards, particularly for kanji that were really helpful. I had to learn the 1900 everyday(Jōyō) kanji and wrote out all of them on separate cards at the rate of 20-30 a week, which is kind of ridiculous! I imagine there are tons of apps that make this kind of thing a lot less painful these days.
Immersion in the form of music/film/TV/games etc is a great suggestion and should be enjoyable for sure. I'll definitely get over to visit just as soon as I can afford it and hopefully by then I will have learned enough to attempt some of my skills.
I'm definitely keen and prepared to invest plenty of time and dedication to it, and with all this info I have plenty of avenues to explore.
Hawken, you mention that it's a good idea to 'type' when learning rather than write by hand, and I have a dumb question about that. I'm sure this will explain itself when I start to understant the Hiragana/Katakana, but do I need a JP keyboard?
I know how to set up Romanji input and then is it a case of typing the English equivalent, so if the Romanji was 'Wa' then typing that in English would input the relevant Kana? Or is it worth getting hold of a Japanese keyboard?
Thanks again everyone, really awesome replies.
Japanese language is easy. The difficult part is having the drive to be persistent. If you really want to learn the language you need a real world connection. For example, you plan on living there at some point. Or, you are hardcore otaku
I visit Japan about once every 2 years. My wife is Japanese and I have 2 Japanese/English speaking children. My children have reached an age to converse in either language. I can understand some of what they are saying to each other but I miss a lot too. I have begun studying seriously again because I do not want to be left out of those conversations. It's very important to me now more than ever. This is my real world connection.
I don't think there is any one best way to learn the language. You need to find YOUR way, yourself. It sounds like you are a beginner; the first thing I would do is take a beginner course, this is what I did. This is a great way to learn important basics like how to use the hiragana katakana alphabet. Make sure the course covers this, otherwise it's not a good beginner course. After that you can take another or go the road yourself. I chose to learn on my own. I recommend picking up a book, there are many. Do a search to find the one that suits you best. I have, "Japanese For Busy People". It's probably not the best but it's the one the class used. Don't just stick to the book, its good to wander off and learn other things outside the book. Use the book to learn but also as a guide to gauge your progress. Without a gauge you will get lost. Remember the book will give you the structure you are missing by not taking a class. I'd say do a 50/50 split of studying. Learn stuff from the book but then put it into practice with a penpal, or movies, music.. etc. Books are boring, find interesting forms of media to enjoy the language. Good Luck!
Tokidokizenzen -
Thanks for the tips, once again it's nice to get advice from people in different situations!
With regards to my reasoning for learning and the willingness which will hopefully come from it, is primarily my desire to either visit for extended periods or relocate to Japan. I honestly can't say it will be as perfect as I imagine it since I have never been, but my Grandad got me interested in the culture when I was a kid since it was one of his favourite places, and since then I've always loved what I've seen/read/heard of the country. They seem so happy, they seem 'disconnected' from a lot of the crap that goes on in the world in some ways. I like their respect for life.
I also feel somewhat obliged to pick up a good part of the language at least if I plan to spend time over their. I kinda look at it like I would people coming to the UK. Almost everyone I see who has moved here to England from another country, and many who just visit, can speak great English. I know it's taught in many schools around the world, but I think it's respectable when people make the effort to learn the native language. I'm often impressed just how well people speak it too... I've talked to people from the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden who almost speak/write English better than a lot of English people do!
My Brother visited Tokyo a year ago and said he couldn't believe just how well behaved everybody seemed. Living in Britain I see my fair share of unpleasant behaviour almost daily, whether that's something as mild as dumping a bag full of litter on the pavement or as serious as a drunken brawl outside a bar. I get the impression in Japan that while I'm sure this sort of thing does happen, the majority of people have been brought up to live a life of respect and behaving like that doesn't even cross their mind.
Also he compared the underground train system. Apparently everyone in Japan waiting for the train lines up neatly and people on the arriving train are allowed off first, then despite the incredible crowd, it all seems to flow well. Compare that to the London Underground... lol.
I guess this is all an outsiders view and I'm sure there are bad points we don't see/hear about but I at least want to experience it, even if it turns out to be nothing like I expected.
Of course I do have a huge love for tech, gaming, manga and anim
literacy will be the larger challenge. Needing over 2000 kanji just to be able to read the newspaper will be a challenge, they do basically 1 or 2 every day in gradeschool.
Then again, I might say it's easy because I am pretty fluent in cantonese and grammar is structured in a similar way. I'm actually slowly learning japanese as a roundabout way of learning mandarin. Literacy with kanji in japanese will give me a huge springboard into literacty in chinese.
I haven't been seriously studying but I pick up vocabulary every now and then, and probably have the comprehension spoken and literacy rate of about a 2-3 year old.
As for employment and residency in japan.... I don't think it's worth it. I've had friends who have been there and worked there... it's tough. Great place to visit or work in short term, but not a place they'd want to live for a long time, though your mileage may vary.
I'll go and visit one day though.
Find friends to practice with... learning by yourself makes it difficult if you can't speak to someone using that language. Once you become fluent enough, lots of japanese people are looking to practice their english online, I have a friend who chats with a bunch of them bilingually and they help each other just by having conversations back and forth.
A lot of people do end up staying here due to the placid nature of society. The Japanese appear to have a great ability to direct their energy onto other tasks. I do see a fight here in Tokyo every now and then, but compared to Brighton or London, it's a very rare occurrence. Transversely theres a multitude of things worse, that we seemed to have "solved" in the west.
To answer the question, I've been here on and off since 1999 - maybe about 7 years in total. the first half of that time I really couldn't be bothered with learning Japanese! (I was here to work, everyone around me was speaking in English)
If you do come here for work, expect a 50% pay cut.
Yeah I read an article a month or so ago regarding the salary in the Japanese game industry.
I hear the cost of living is more or less the same as London, and if that's the case, I certainly couldn't afford to take a 50% pay cut. At least not until I am in the position to work at a higher level.
Is this true for most industries? Are there other jobs that pay as well or better than the UK/US? My degree is in Architecture so I could potentially look at other areas of employment.
I'm certainly not interested in earning more in Japan, in fact I'd take a bit of a cut if quality of life is better, but obviously I need to be able to afford to live/support family!
About the place and the people; anywhere you go people are people. A lot is hidden under the surface in Japan which is why it may seem more polite or friendly. I still don't think I have a real understanding of the culture. My current feeling now is that I wouldn't want to live/work there for a long period of time. My main reason is because I'm a foreigner and things just come harder. Another factor for me and my family is child tolerance is low in Japan. If you're on a train and your kid is crying or fussing for whatever reason, people do not have as much patience for that as they do in the states. My wife has told me repeatedly it's easier to have kids in the US. I don't know how this kids stuff is relevant.. :P
But different area's of Japan have different attitudes just like the different "bens" when it comes to things. So the above is just from living in this area.
My wife says it's easier here in Japan. Some things may seem a little backwards, but it's just my not understanding of that aspect of Japanese culture... and one of the reason why I am taking etiquette/culture/customs classes. Being gai koku jin has it's ups and downs, mostly by my own fault of not speaking well. But don't let it stop you from being a part of things. I hang out at the village bar, work/participate in the festivals, I play baseball with the old men, do PTA nights, crossing guards for the kids on my shift, community cleaning and work in the rice fields. I am not here on vacation or a extended stay. I'm here for good till otherwise. It's more of a sense of community here than anywhere I have ever lived ( I live up north in a small town). And it's literally "A village raises a child." here. You will always be gai koku jin, just something you'll have to deal with, but once people know you, they will treat you well.
Being gai koku jin comes with a lot of stereotypes. Going to the big city people think I am going to cause trouble if it's late at night and I am walking alone. Everything they learned is from TV, and very little exposure to real people from other countries. Being black, some think I: Run fast, jump high, play every sport well, can sing/rap and dance almost or just as good as Usher, have a sex drive like a rabbit on viagra and uppers, like to be cool, hung like a moose, dangerous, grew up "in the ghetto", thuggish, been in jail at some point, loud, very strong and tough and more likely fired a gun at someone or something and most likely armed and may have or am about to do something bad.
The above can have it's disadvantages if you play into them or do it. It does get old after a while and you need insanely thick skin in the beginning because you hear all this stuff and sometimes they think you don't understand. You go out and go drinking and someone will say something to you or ask stupid questions.
Family reputation is EVERYTHING. My wife thought I should use her family name for living here, as it would make some things easier. And living here for as long as I am, means adopting some rules and taking on some mannerism. I take the challenge of building my family name here in this village, it means do what you say and say what you do. Help when needed and be a part of things. Don't be embarrassed or shy to do some things and don't act a fool... unless you're drunk and with friends.
Shit that was long... back to work.
Funny story:
On the way home from work I stopped at Lawsons (mini-mart) and before I went inside I saw this black dude. From his stance, hair and how he dressed I knew he was East Coast, VA or New York. I go inside and he yells "KOKU-JIN!!" (black man!!) and I am thinking "oh shit.". So I go to the front and the girl behind the counter is like scared as shit, prolly thinking "Oh fuck, there's two now!! They are gonna rape me then rob the store". The guy is drunk as shit and buying more liquor. As he's paying for the stuff he starts yelling at the poor girl: "I got 5 cents!! I got 5 cents, take this!!", he wanted to get 100 yen back and not a bunch of change. The girl was like getting ready to cry and more people were looking (but pretending not to look). I told him once the drawer is closed it's over, I told the girl, everything is ok, I will get him outside. I get him outside and the guy has is GF in the car. GF can't speak English, and he can't speak Japanese other than koku jin and arigatou. She's telling him to get in the car in Japanese, he's telling me how he's going to help people in Hatti. So she figures out I can speak Japanese and asks me to help her get him in the car. So they get in the car and leave. I go back in the store and buy my stuff, do the sincere bow and apology to the girl and the manager at the store. I live here and I can't fuck up.
Two weeks later I go into that Lawsons and get food, the girl tells the the other girl what I did and they were impressed. One asked what I do here, told her and now she attends the language school I teach at.
If you ask a 16 year old kid with a Death Note poster on his wall then you would get the answer you described.
I'm 25, and while still into Anime and gaming obviously, and tech, the real reason for me is as I said earlier, every Japanese person I've met seems so damn happy and their country just seems so clean and respectful. It's not necessarily Tokyo I'd want to relocate to, as Lamont said, smaller country towns look just as appealing to me. I think it's more of what I have seen of their lifestyle.
As you say though, it's all a view based solely on what I've read / seen / heard and without going myself I could never say for sure if I'd like it as much as I think I would.
http://www.dannychoo.com certainly portrays a nice looking Japan and seems to be a good place to get an insight into another person who has moved from the UK to Japan.
Lamont, that story is too funny.
if you're going for an architecture job here, expect a 95% pay cut
Fucking can't find my Invader Zim DVD's. I am pissed.
Throwing themselves in front of trains
CreationTwenty: "They seem so happy, they seem 'disconnected' from a lot of the crap that goes on in the world in some ways. I like their respect for life." Illusions like these die hard here
Lamont: lol at that story, man
Blenderhead: Work is good - not at liberty to tell you anything fun ofcourse :P
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/
I'm in the process of learning Japanese myself and have been at it seriously for about 10 months now. I definitely recommend "Remembering the Kanji" by James Heisig, that was mentioned earlier in this thread. You can use Anki (http://ichi2.net/anki/) to help you learn and it has all 3007 kanji from the first and third books. Anki is pretty much like an electronic flashcard system and has the Heisig Kanji list available for download. The good thing about the system is that it makes it easier to learn for English speakers, but the order works to the system and not to level of usage so you do end up learning a lot of kanji you won't see for a while.
Right now I'm also using http://www.readthekanji.com/ for reading sentences but I got a free account since I signed up when it was still in beta. You can try it out for free and see if you think it'd be worth the cost.
I'm trying to put myself in an immersion environment, so my ipod only has Japanese music/podcasts and its on all day unless I'm in a meeting or taking a shower.
If you want someone to study with just drop me a PM.
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My favorite ever
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I'd recommend avoiding Japan and Japanese entirely. To save your sanity.
I have hit a bit of a wall myself as I'm trying to move onto the readings, I moved onto Kanji odyssey (http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/e-2001kanji.html) but the example sentences are slightly boring. I'll definitely check out that readingthekanji site, sounds like it could help me get back on track :P
Oh and Lamont, you rock dude seriously. Sounds like you know exactly where you stand and what to expect living Japan, keep it up ^_^
Do you not find you get told if you work european style though? (i.e., work your ass off during the day, no reading manga or taking naps, then leave work at sixish?)
Leaving work at sixish? *Looks away dreamily, drools a little* If I leave a little later, I can get robbed by two men:
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What are you average working hours Raz? Any weekends you have to go into the office? I suppose it's justified in your case, considering what you are working on...