Ok so now we are encouraging people to be useless fuckwits then? And thats ok?
Do you consider the food industry evil, for encouraging people not to hunt and grow their own food?
Every technology and comfort ever invented is encouraging people to be more of a useless fuckwit than they would have been before. Less work required, less knowledge required, more fun to be had. Where do you draw the line?
Exactly. But you don't want to do that, do you? Do you feel brainwashed?
No, but someone invented a product to make my life easier so I use it. It's the same reason I don't wash my clothes in the river. I CAN buy a washing machine. I didn't buy one because they run over it with a monster truck in the commercial...
Now ads and marketing can be useful and can be entertaining. Yet personally my small simple brain just likes it better when it can shift a gear back and know it doesn't have to expect anyone trying to mess with it on order to sell something getting at my hard earned money, while it tries to have a good time watching a movie or playing a game.
Well, our simple small brains take everything in as influences. The world around you is helping/causing you to formulate thoughts, concepts, feelings, opinions, and conclusions at all times whether you like it or not. I'm personally not afraid of it -- i have the free will to feel like an annoying/subversive advertisement should make me LESS inclined to buy a product, and by the look of your post so do you -- pretty much everyone has this ability.
So what is there to fear? That only kinds of advertising which remain popular will be successful? Doesnt sound bad to me.
No, but someone invented a product to make my life easier so I use it. It's the same reason I don't wash my clothes in the river. I CAN buy a washing machine. I didn't buy one because they run over it with a monster truck in the commercial...
And that is, again, the heart of my argument. Someone invented farmville to help people have fun. They CAN have fun other ways, but they choose farmville, instead of washing their clothes in the river or pulling down leaves.
My argument is not that this doesn't happen, it's not that this way of life isn't true.
The part that pisses me off is the people who see this as a good thing, who want to do it more. They want to take it to the point of no return and farther, to the point where everything and anything we do is influence by a greedy bastard that's going to make money off of us.
They see what people are capable of being influenced to do, and they think its the way of the future?
I think I just lost all my faith in humanity today.
My argument is not that this doesn't happen, it's not that this way of life isn't true.
The part that pisses me off is the people who see this as a good thing, who want to do it more.
They see what people are capable of doing and they think its the way of the future?
I think I just lost all my faith in humanity today.
Sticking to my existing bob metaphor:
I think mattresses are a good thing. Even though they enable people to comfortably avoid life, they also enable hard workers to get better healthier nights of sleep.
There are always going to be pathetic people. Saying that 'Pathetic people use this product as an accessory to their hopelessness, the product must be pathetic' is ridiculous.
Aren't you here because you want to work on videogames? You are fully aware that they are a means of escapism, and that a sizeable amount of pathetic people stay indoors and play videogames all day hating themselves instead of living healthy lives, right? And they waste all of their money to support this 'habit'?
And that is, again, the heart of my argument. Someone invented farmville to help people have fun. They CAN have fun other ways, but they choose farmville, instead of washing their clothes in the river or pulling down leaves.
accidental argument sidekick of the year
I thought this was an argument over ads.... Anyway, well played sir, you win...
So what if Bob loves playing farmville, but he doesn't have any more money left to use to get farmville money, so he sees that he can sign up for a credit card to get points, but this credit card has an extremely high interest rate and outragious fees, but Bob is so desperate to buy a fucking cow on farmville that he doesn't care and gets the card anyway, because he feels like he HAS to. Because games like that are set up to where if you want anything cool you have to use real money because all the prices are so inflated even if you played for weeks you couldn't get enough money just by playing.
Am I the only person that thinks that is fucked up?
I think the difference here is that Bob, is a fucking moron who can't manage his personal finances, has no self control or any sense of moderation.
Junkies do what junkies do regardless of the substance.
Why do we need to drive over to Bob's house and make sure to round off all the corners and wrap him in bubble tape? Why do I need to save Bob from his self destructive dumbass behavior? Why does Bob's problem need to wreck the good time that everyone else is having?
If we're going to crack down on games that milk people for money then Vegas is all but shut down.
I thought this was an argument over ads.... Anyway, well played sir, you win...
There are tons of advertisements reminding you how good life is when you have a washing machine and toilet paper, and reminding you where to buy them and who sells them. You are okay with this because they aren't lying. Advertising doesn't mean lying. Advertisers are not dishonest, evil geniuses. Sure, lying is an option, but it's not exactly the most common or effective choice.
Plus word of mouth. Without marketing, you would not be aware of these products, or your options with them. The goal of an advertisement isnt to strip down your faculties as an informed consumer, that's impossible.
Obviously, advertising is complex, and it DOES rely on a lot of subtle manipulation. There is a LOT MORE TO IT. But 'we are not using evil mind control' is to marketing how 'we are not just playing with computers' is to making 3d art.
I support games that allow you to choose when and where you want to play them, when I go out and buy Assassins Creed I pay one amount of money and I go home and when I am bored I play that game, if I need to go to work or do something important it is not hard for me to pause my game or save it and go back to it later, when I have things that keep me busy and I dont have free time well guess what I dont play games. Games are not bad, I dont see them as being bad everyone deserves a way to entertain themselves, its games that make it HARD to stop playing, games that SUCK money out of you without you thinking much of it that I have a problem with.
I as someone who is part of the game industry I have control over what I choose to take part in, and it is up to us to decide whether we want the future of games to become more like farmville, or not.
It's a terrible argument winner. The toilet paper company is wealthy because they know clean, decent people want to buy their product. So they advertise it as such.
Clean decent people, come here, we've got just the thing for you!
Firecracker identifies herself as a clean, decent person, so she buys the product they're shilling.
I think the problem here is that people are assuming all persuasively, well advertised products don't work. Just the opposite is true. All successful products work -- people play farmville because it is fun. People play farmville instead of other, equally fun games because it is brilliantly marketed.
Ok, so I'm not saying that it's a magic wand, or some kind of mind control laser. I'm also not saying that all well advertised things are bad, broken, or unnecessary. I AM saying that it's a subversive element being utilized by people to whom I am only another dollar, vote, or audience member. However you basically summed up what I was saying at the end there. When there is no discernible difference between product A and product B (ie...damn near everything in our product saturated lives...just go to the laundry detergent aisle in the grocery store), it comes down to how you feel about the product, and that's where advertising dollars are well spent to help craft your "feeling" Sure there's no 100% way of controlling anyone's opinions, but there's certainly powerful ways of influencing it. Also people react different ways to influence. Some people can be influenced by telling them they should, some people can be influenced by telling them they shouldn't. Some people can be influenced by wanting to appear a certain way. It's just about knowing the psychology of your market and tailoring an approach.
Also there are many other reasons said toilet paper company could be successful. That assumes that every person has gone through every variety of toilet paper, tested each for texture and durability, then made a decision based on quality. The reality is most people will go for what they recognize...once again ad dollars well spent, or is cheaper, which means deals with distributors and retailers had more to do with success than the product itself. Sure if the product is below a certain standard then no amount of advertising will eventually cover that up. However that standard is only dictated by what is available. If I need something and all three versions of it available to me were built to the lowest standards then I'm left to pick the least shitty of three shitty options. Sure someone could come on the scene with a better version, but chances are the manufacturers of the three shitty items are saving so much money on the production of their product they can afford to produce more and pay for better distributors. Also because of the higher quality of the product, the new comer would have to charge more, presumably to cover the cost of higher quality materials, designers, or engineers. What about Apple you say? They have higher cost, nicely designed computers and gadgets and they're doing quite well...in fact you could call them a cultural force even...Because of their marketing and design, the psychological aspects they have been able to attach to their products.
I support games that allow you to choose when and where you want to play them.
Like farmville? You don't even HAVE to pay to play it. I'm sure there's data somewhere, and i'm pretty confident the vast, vast majority of players spend way less than the 60 bucks you dropped on assassins creed throughout their farmville career.
So what is there to fear? That only kinds of advertising which remain popular will be successful? Doesnt sound bad to me.
advertisement creeping into every bit of my life? that the intention of media to educate/entertain/inform me shifts away from this to just sell me stuff? getting a damn break from people trying to get to my money? That I have to use focus even more from separating ads from real content?
Also I doubt your capitalist take on "the bad kinds of advertising will disappear". Where have they ever disappeared? They're getting more and more. There's even animated ads with audio in the elevators here in China (talk about annoying!). On the headrests of the front passenger in taxis - same thing! (also with audio! poor drivers who have to hear this all day long). By that definition there are no unsuccessful advertising ways. It just get's more and it gets harder to "escape" and for some reason I think I am not the only one who'd like a bit less advertising in their lifes....
I think the difference here is that Bob, is a fucking moron who can't manage his personal finances, has no self control or any sense of moderation.
Junkies do what junkies do regardless of the substance.
Why do we need to drive over to Bob's house and make sure to round off all the corners and wrap him in bubble tape? Why do I need to save Bob from his self destructive dumbass behavior?
If we're going to crack down on games that milk people for money then Vegas is all but shut down.
The sad part is that there are more people like Bob in the world than there are not, and companies know that, and even now they are willingly admitting it.
They are basically saying "Hey there are 10 billion idiots in the world if I charged everyone of of those idiots a dollar I would have 10 billion dollars, that sounds great"
I do not want to be one of those idiots, and I do not want my children do be one of those idiots.
it comes down to how you feel about the product, and that's where advertising dollars are well spent to help craft your "feeling"
It may feel like i'm cutting out and ignoring most of your post here, but i think this is really the important point, and the rest of your argument pivots on it.
My question is: isnt that 'feeling' a commodity? Isnt the consumer given the choice between the product they feel good about and the product they don't feel good about?
The fact that people will pay for a vague comforting 'feel' isnt scary or surprising at all. I'm pretty sure that's why the entertainment industry exists. The reason you like one videogame over the other is down to the esoteric feel of the mechanics. If books, movies, games, paintings, music, and plays are allowed to charge massive amounts of money for a product just cause they can influence the audience to feel good about it, why can't Axe bodywash?
Like farmville? You don't even HAVE to pay to play it. I'm sure there's data somewhere, and i'm pretty confident the vast, vast majority of players spend way less than the 60 bucks you dropped on assassins creed throughout their farmville career.
I spent that money because I chose to, its not about how much money you spent on what but why you did it. These people know that signing up for a ridiculous credit card is bad for them, but they are being influenced to do something that is bad for them by someone else. That's wrong.
Also I doubt your capitalist take on "the bad kinds of advertising will disappear". Where have they ever disappeared? They're getting more and more.
The bad kind isnt getting more popular! The kind that you personally dont like is getting more and more popular. Being a minority sucks, i agree, but it's part of life, and not a part invented by evil marketers.
I spent that money because I chose to, its not about how much money you spent on what but why you did it. These people know that signing up for a ridiculous credit card is bad for them, but they are being influenced to do something that is bad for them by someone else. That's wrong.
Wait a minute.
A comsumer has free will to buy assasins creed 2, but a consumer does not have free will to sign up for a farmville sponsered credit card?
Explain the difference to me. Both products had untold millions in advertising. And, you said no to one but yes to the other. I've, up to this point, said no to both. Doesn't that imply an option to choose, influences aside?
Well, looking at this forum there were quite a few bobs here, and for them it worked quite well when they stopped playing WoW and realized they could do art instead. Were the Bobs to blame because they were weak individuals and suddenly changed? Or could you say that WoW and PC games in general, like Mass Effect, DA, can be very captivating experiences?
Same old discussion as with why americans and europeans have different takes on social system. Is the individual to blame or the situation (MMOs being available)? Probably a bit of both I'd say.
I don't even know where this is going anymore actually, all I know is that manipulation is manipulation and when that manipulation is premeditated to me that is immoral, and I just can't see how that's beneficial for our future.
I might even be a victim of it myself and that's pretty depressing.
Well, looking at this forum there were quite a few bobs here, and for them it worked quite well when they stopped playing WoW and realized they could do art instead. Were the Bobs to blame because they were weak individuals and suddenly changed? Or could you say that WoW and PC games in general, like Mass Effect, DA, can be very captivating experiences?
Of course they're captivating experiences. But the fact remains, unless you make the conscious choice to play them, and to continue playing them, they are not captivating anybody. Is it wrong to captivate someone who knowingly pays money to be captivated, and keeps coming back?
Imo this is a result of the change in the gaming-wold. Not the nerd is playing .. everyone is playing. So the nerds become a minority .. again :poly122:
And I want polycount achievements e.g. for giving newbs good advices here on the boards:D
I don't even know where this is going anymore actually, all I know is that manipulation is manipulation and when that manipulation is premeditated to me that is immoral, and I just can't see how that's beneficial for our future.
I might even be a victim of it myself and that's pretty depressing.
I'm a bit of a fitness freak. I got into athletics and it changed my life and mindset for the better, all over. A lot of times i'll talk my friends into just spontaneously doing pushups, to try and improve their habits.
That is an act of manipulation . I'm changing what they'll do today to suit my purpose. My purpose is benevolent, but even so, is it immoral? If it is, i guess i had better lock myself alone and avoid all contact with the outside world for the rest of my days, because it is impossible not to be an agent of influence on anyone you come into contact with, however small.
Or would it only be immoral if i worked at a marketing firm?
Rollin, dont talk like that! soon we'll be evilly manipulating people into becoming better arists!
The bad kind isnt getting more popular! The kind that you personally dont like is getting more and more popular. Being a minority sucks, i agree, but it's part of life, and not a part invented by evil marketers.
I think you're confusing this. The reason those ads are there isn't because the majority approves them or buys these products.
The reason they are there is because there's a MINORITY dumb enough to react to these annoying ads and buys stuff so that the company still makes a profit, no matter how tiny. That's the only reason those ads are there. Same with most other obnoxious ads you encounter very day. There's very few people who ask for ads being plastered everywhere.
I'm pretty sure a majority of people find them just as damn annoying as I do.... especially those poor shanghai cab drivers
Is it wrong to captivate someone who knowingly pays money to be captivated, and keeps coming back?
ever heard of obsessive gambling? It just doesn't have to be casinos. can be online games too. or call-in shows or horoscopes. Some people's brains are just wired to get hooked to stuff like this where normal people would say it's a matter of free will. but it isn't.
I think you're confusing this. The reason those ads are there isn't because the majority approves them or buys these products.
The reason they are there is because there's a MINORITY dumb enough to react to these annoying ads and buys stuff so that the company still makes a profit, no matter how tiny. That's the only reason those ads are there. Same with most other obnoxious ads you encounter very day. There's very few people who ask for ads being plastered everywhere.
I'm pretty sure a majority of people find them just as damn annoying as I do.... especially those poor shanghai cab drivers
A majority of their market prefers them to other advertisements they've tried. That's the only majority that matters.
I mean, this is a generalization, sometimes dumbasses look at the sales data and say WE ARE DOING IT THE INEFFECTIVE WAY, but that's not exactly the norm, and those companies wont be around/managed that way too long
I'm a bit of a fitness freak. I got into athletics and it changed my life and mindset for the better, all over. A lot of times i'll talk my friends into just spontaneously doing pushups, to try and improve their habits.
That is an act of manipulation . I'm changing what they'll do today to suit my purpose. My purpose is benevolent, but even so, is it immoral?
But it would be wrong if you got $10 for every person you got to do pushups, then your manipulation would be fueled by greed.
Well I agree with Firecracker even if it *seems* like her point is easy to demolish ('No one forces you to play/pay, why do you complain blablabla')
To me the bottom line is, I enjoy playing games for what they are. I dont need achievements, points, whatever. I think what worries me and FC (besides the 1984 nature of it, as thats a whole different subject), its just that this approach to gaming is all about exploiting the 'psy hooks' this guy is talking about and making money off it. Then see why it worked for a given product, and make new profitable games off it.
For sure games are somehow a business. But when nintendo made the Wii, they didnt think of microtransactions or rubber velvet rope strategies. They just made their thing and it worked.
A friend of mine just released a very nice game on the iphone. It's selling extremely well, and no need for monthly payements.
Now I know that if you run a business, "milking games" are a great idea. It's just that business first, gameplay second is meh to me when it comes to pretty much everything. Id rather buy the quality product rather than the cheap one coming with a coupon to get a free plastic unicorn if I accept to pay 1$ a month.
It might be great for the millions of bored Facebook players. It's just not for me as an individual, so when this is advertised as 'the future of gaming', it just irks me. Future of profitable hybrid businesses based on a gaming as a product, yes. Future of gaming and lifestyle, hell no. Facebook sucks anyways!
Also, america is not the whole world. Not everybody has the same attitude when it comes to monthly payements, credit card stuff and so on.
So yeah its all fascinating and very sad at the same time.
Now I know that if you run a business, milking games are a great idea. It's just that business first, gameplay second is meh. It might be great for the millions of bored Facebook players. It's just not for me as an individual, so when this is advertised as 'the future of gaming', it just irks me. Future of profitable hybrid businesses based on a gaming as a product, yes. Future of gaming and lifestyle, hell no. Facebook sucks anyways!
But gameplay IS the business. The fact that your friends' game is making money shows that! plenty of farmville imitators are bombing. Farmville is successful because people DO want a game like that they can play competitively while they're bored on facebook, and farmville is the best/best marketed one.
Your friend's game is surely making money because people DO want a game they can just pay for once and have fun with, and it's a quality product!
There is no evil manipulation going on here. Just providing a service people want, and letting them choose to waste their money on it instead of a different, competing service.
America isnt the whole world! and america's economy is in trouble. Maybe people really dont like this kind of a milking of a product, and soon our entertainment industry will collapse, and this whole thing we'll die out! That's actually exactly how it is supposed to work.
editeditedit:
Forgot to mention, the whole 'future of gaming' thing is a bit of a misunderstanding. Given his expertise and his subject, it's kinda implied he's talking about what is going to have a big market share soon, not what EVERY SINGLE GAME is going to turn into. When everquest came out people started talking about how MMOs were going to be the next big thing, but only idiots thought they would replace other gaming.
The sad part is that there are more people like Bob in the world than there are not, and companies know that, and even now they are willingly admitting it.
They are basically saying "Hey there are 10 billion idiots in the world if I charged everyone of of those idiots a dollar I would have 10 billion dollars, that sounds great"
I do not want to be one of those idiots, and I do not want my children do be one of those idiots.
It's an educational problem, not a legislative one.
Bob needs to make good choices. It's sad that Bob's parents and the educational system he went through didn't teach Bob that. It's sad that he made it to the legal age of adulthood without being taught how to be an adult.
I honestly don't care how Bob comes to the decision that signing up for a crap credit card offer to get a virtual cow is a bad idea but if he can't see that up front then maybe getting his wallet worked over by a credit card company will wake him up.
Bob has a problem with X.
We shut down X.
Bob now has a problem with Y.
We shut down Y.
Bob now has a problem with Z.
We shut down Z.
The problem isn't with XY or Z its with Bob.
Now everyone has a problem with Bob, an angry mob forms and asks Bob to kill himself so everyone that doesn't have a problem, can get back to having fun with XY and Z.
Bob's life will improve when Bob stops making bad choices. I shouldn't have to force good choices on someone else. I don't mind educating them but I shouldn't be forced to be their nanny.
Well to me and I think for a few others too, 'being bored on Facebook' is the core of the issue. You're bored on Facebook, well you close facebook and go for a walk. Right?
At least I wish it was like that. I am pretty sure that kids playing Webkinz on a computer develop less imagination and skills than with regular toys. Now it's just a personal opinion. (blah blah I'm brainwashed, there is no more value in being smart than being dumb, blablabla everybody picks what they want to be blablabla)
I just tend to firmly believe than a world with less 'bored computer time' and more real life interaction would be, hmmm, better. Less Bobs and more educated choices.
Well to me and I think for a few others too, 'being bored on Facebook' is the core of the issue. You're bored on Facebook, well you close facebook and go for a walk. Right?
At least I wish it was like that. I am pretty sure that kids playing Webkinz on a computer develop less imagination and skills than with regular toys. Now it's just a personal opinion. I just tend to firmly believe than a world with less 'bored computer time' and more real life interaction would be, hmmm, better.
Well, i agree. In fact, i'm of the personal opinion that everyone should learn to fight. Boxing or wrestling or something. The human body was evolved/built/whatever not just to exercise, but to defend themselves from predators/eachother. Not being sarcastic, this is my actual opinion, they're incredibly fun, healthy, safe sports...
But what i'm getting at is that the vast majority of people are not going to agree with me or want to get punched in the face. Or let their kids get punched in their face. They'd rather stay in their comfort zone, whether it's taking walks in the park, or staying at home, or staying on facebook. And i guess i don't see anything wrong with providing a service to make your comfort zone more fun. If you want to live life that way, it's your choice.
You know? Society may be lazy, but it's not marketers' fault. Got to make a living somehow, and lazy money is as good as badass money.
Marketers sure aren't doing anything to change the fact that society is lazy though, they are just fine going to sleep at night knowing that they are making money off a flaw in society whether or not it is their fault.
Marketers sure aren't doing anything to change the fact that society is lazy though, they are just fine going to sleep at night knowing that they are making money off a flaw in society whether or not it is their fault.
You intend to make videogames. Absurd levels of hypocrisy. Do you know how many lazy, pathetic assholes use videogames as an excuse to do fuckall with their lives?
For me the main issue isn't that the advertisers and marketing is EVIL. More so that it's being shoved in our faces from every outlet they can find. I have no problem with coca-cola telling me they make the best soda, even polar bears love. That's fine, it's completely up to the consumer to decide if coke really is the best, and if they want to drink it.
The problem is the invasive nature of the advertisements described in the video. I can choose to turn off the TV, or simply not look at billboards. But it's ads like kwramm describe (audio/video ads that you can't possibly avoid or turn off, in the proccess of your day to day life) that crosses the line for me.
well I wouldn't call it manipulation. But companies do set up their products to promote sales of additional content. Now there is NOTHING wrong with that from a capitalism point of view. Sure a company doesn't have to run a game like a democracy and treat everyone equal. Yet it leaves a sour taste if they do. Case example:
If a long running game, where people played/grinded to get enhancements/loot introduce an item shop that sells game altering items. You pay money - you get more powerful.
Is there a demand? sure, who doesn't want to own at PvP? Is the company doing its best to satisfy the demand? sure! So all is well? not really because just adding a uber powerful sword to the game could have been easily added as loot. So your money isn't even compensating the company for hard work.
Okay you say, now people pay for an advantage that's just fair and a company can sell what ever they want. You don't have to buy it. However their advantage becomes your disadvantage - no matter if you want to play part in this money making move or not. It is forced onto you. What do you do? Give up the game you love? Keep playing being frustrated that now everyone who choses to buy an overpriced item beats you? In the end you will end up buying the content just as everyone else does. The company won. You will keep enjoying the game despite being "tricked" out of your money. Because once everyone bought the premium content nobody is better off than before as the power balance is yet the same again.
This actually happened in an MMO I played and such item shops have been quite an issue so far within the community. While it's not the zombiecalypse nor especially despicable I don't think these are ways I like items being "sold" in games.
I would really prefer it if it were like SupRore says - you pay for a quality and fun product - but especially with micro transactions and DLC stuff there's a lot of questionable things out there (a lot of cool stuff too though).
I would really prefer it if it were like SupRore says - you pay for a quality and fun product - but especially with micro transactions and DLC stuff there's a lot of questionable things out there (a lot of cool stuff too though).
Just because quality and fun products are success doesnt mean there arent questionable products out there. But didn't you and a lot of other players quit that mmo? Free markets don't self regulate INSTANTLY, but there is change when bad products are provided.
Marketers sure aren't doing anything to change the fact that society is lazy though, they are just fine going to sleep at night knowing that they are making money off a flaw in society whether or not it is their fault.
It's not their job to educate people or look after society and make sure people are well balanced. That responsibility falls on parents, educators and ultimately on the people themselves. It's their job to effectively market their product and not break the law.
At some point people need to stop blaming external forces and take ownership of their lives.
At some point people need to stop blaming external forces and take ownership of their lives.
As I said many posts ago :P If marketers and advertising can 'outsmart' someone into during something, more power to them. It's the PERSON'S fault for being an idiot. I realize the frustration here, but the blame is pointing in the wrong direction...
I'm an artist, and its crap like this that makes me wish I was born a century ago, but I have to make a living now, and I feel sorry for people who play games because they are lazy and pathetic. I wish this industry was going in a different direction instead of taking advantage of those people. I know that if I am involved enough in the industry maybe I can do my part to change that, that is why I do what I do.
I am taking ownership of what I do, and I will raise my children to not be idiots.
For me the main issue isn't that the advertisers and marketing is EVIL. More so that it's being shoved in our faces from every outlet they can find. I have no problem with coca-cola telling me they make the best soda, even polar bears love. That's fine, it's completely up to the consumer to decide if coke really is the best, and if they want to drink it.
The problem is the invasive nature of the advertisements described in the video. I can choose to turn off the TV, or simply not look at billboards. But it's ads like kwramm describe (audio/video ads that you can't possibly avoid or turn off, in the proccess of your day to day life) that crosses the line for me.
They're aware that if they get in your face too much it will have a negative impact and you will carry around their company name forever but it won't be the impression they wanted to make. They know that if they piss you off and annoy you they won't be around for very long.
I have yet to see anyone get any kind of money out of me by pulling the "are we there yet" routine. You'll get a kick in the nuts before you get a quarter.
I've always had this genius idea for a soda company to sell sodas with. Or maybe just a vending machine company. Plant little speakers, that, at random intervals, will make that "clickssshhhh" sound that you hear whenever open a new can of soda. It makes people thirsty every time.
Just because quality and fun products are success doesnt mean there arent questionable products out there. But didn't you and a lot of other players quit that mmo?
of course not all products are like this. There's definitely honest companies out there. I ain't argueing that. (which is different from the ad issue. Even honest and quality minded companies can be intrusive at times).
Anyway, I bought the item like everyone else because I wanted to play with my friends. We wanted to stay competitive when PvPing (peer pressure: c'mon gear up everyone else has that stuff! we need to pwn).
So I needed the item and made a conscious decision to spend my money? yes.
However after everyone in the game had the items the game didn't change. No increased fun, no new adventures. Just some less cash in the wallet. It's not a good feeling if a game company does this because just quitting a game like that and leaving your friends and the good times behind is much easier said than done.
And those are exactly the type of sales that I do not want to see. Yet they're usually the most easy for cash desperate devs to pull off.
However after everyone in the game had the items the game didn't change. No increased fun, no new adventures. Just some less cash in the wallet. It's not a good feeling if a game company does this because just quitting a game like that and leaving your friends and the good times behind is much easier said than done.
So how many more did you buy after that?
The company made you feel bad, and that's bad business practice, not just dishonest moneymaking. They lost a lot of fans, because they made a backhanded, immoral move, and people noticed. Again, self regulation of a free market is NOT perfect, or even close, but it definitely does work to some degree.
They're aware that if they get in your face too much it will have a negative impact and you will carry around their company name forever but it won't be the impression they wanted to make. They know that if they piss you off and annoy you they won't be around for very long.
Replies
Do you consider the food industry evil, for encouraging people not to hunt and grow their own food?
Every technology and comfort ever invented is encouraging people to be more of a useless fuckwit than they would have been before. Less work required, less knowledge required, more fun to be had. Where do you draw the line?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_consequence
Technology always encourages relative laziness. Is either technology or relative laziness always bad?
Exactly. But you don't want to do that, do you? Do you feel brainwashed?
No, but someone invented a product to make my life easier so I use it. It's the same reason I don't wash my clothes in the river. I CAN buy a washing machine. I didn't buy one because they run over it with a monster truck in the commercial...
Well, our simple small brains take everything in as influences. The world around you is helping/causing you to formulate thoughts, concepts, feelings, opinions, and conclusions at all times whether you like it or not. I'm personally not afraid of it -- i have the free will to feel like an annoying/subversive advertisement should make me LESS inclined to buy a product, and by the look of your post so do you -- pretty much everyone has this ability.
So what is there to fear? That only kinds of advertising which remain popular will be successful? Doesnt sound bad to me.
And that is, again, the heart of my argument. Someone invented farmville to help people have fun. They CAN have fun other ways, but they choose farmville, instead of washing their clothes in the river or pulling down leaves.
accidental argument sidekick of the year
The part that pisses me off is the people who see this as a good thing, who want to do it more. They want to take it to the point of no return and farther, to the point where everything and anything we do is influence by a greedy bastard that's going to make money off of us.
They see what people are capable of being influenced to do, and they think its the way of the future?
I think I just lost all my faith in humanity today.
Sticking to my existing bob metaphor:
I think mattresses are a good thing. Even though they enable people to comfortably avoid life, they also enable hard workers to get better healthier nights of sleep.
There are always going to be pathetic people. Saying that 'Pathetic people use this product as an accessory to their hopelessness, the product must be pathetic' is ridiculous.
Aren't you here because you want to work on videogames? You are fully aware that they are a means of escapism, and that a sizeable amount of pathetic people stay indoors and play videogames all day hating themselves instead of living healthy lives, right? And they waste all of their money to support this 'habit'?
I thought this was an argument over ads.... Anyway, well played sir, you win...
Junkies do what junkies do regardless of the substance.
Why do we need to drive over to Bob's house and make sure to round off all the corners and wrap him in bubble tape? Why do I need to save Bob from his self destructive dumbass behavior? Why does Bob's problem need to wreck the good time that everyone else is having?
If we're going to crack down on games that milk people for money then Vegas is all but shut down.
There are tons of advertisements reminding you how good life is when you have a washing machine and toilet paper, and reminding you where to buy them and who sells them. You are okay with this because they aren't lying. Advertising doesn't mean lying. Advertisers are not dishonest, evil geniuses. Sure, lying is an option, but it's not exactly the most common or effective choice.
Plus word of mouth. Without marketing, you would not be aware of these products, or your options with them. The goal of an advertisement isnt to strip down your faculties as an informed consumer, that's impossible.
Obviously, advertising is complex, and it DOES rely on a lot of subtle manipulation. There is a LOT MORE TO IT. But 'we are not using evil mind control' is to marketing how 'we are not just playing with computers' is to making 3d art.
I as someone who is part of the game industry I have control over what I choose to take part in, and it is up to us to decide whether we want the future of games to become more like farmville, or not.
Unless you're AT&T, Bazinga!
Ok, so I'm not saying that it's a magic wand, or some kind of mind control laser. I'm also not saying that all well advertised things are bad, broken, or unnecessary. I AM saying that it's a subversive element being utilized by people to whom I am only another dollar, vote, or audience member. However you basically summed up what I was saying at the end there. When there is no discernible difference between product A and product B (ie...damn near everything in our product saturated lives...just go to the laundry detergent aisle in the grocery store), it comes down to how you feel about the product, and that's where advertising dollars are well spent to help craft your "feeling" Sure there's no 100% way of controlling anyone's opinions, but there's certainly powerful ways of influencing it. Also people react different ways to influence. Some people can be influenced by telling them they should, some people can be influenced by telling them they shouldn't. Some people can be influenced by wanting to appear a certain way. It's just about knowing the psychology of your market and tailoring an approach.
Also there are many other reasons said toilet paper company could be successful. That assumes that every person has gone through every variety of toilet paper, tested each for texture and durability, then made a decision based on quality. The reality is most people will go for what they recognize...once again ad dollars well spent, or is cheaper, which means deals with distributors and retailers had more to do with success than the product itself. Sure if the product is below a certain standard then no amount of advertising will eventually cover that up. However that standard is only dictated by what is available. If I need something and all three versions of it available to me were built to the lowest standards then I'm left to pick the least shitty of three shitty options. Sure someone could come on the scene with a better version, but chances are the manufacturers of the three shitty items are saving so much money on the production of their product they can afford to produce more and pay for better distributors. Also because of the higher quality of the product, the new comer would have to charge more, presumably to cover the cost of higher quality materials, designers, or engineers. What about Apple you say? They have higher cost, nicely designed computers and gadgets and they're doing quite well...in fact you could call them a cultural force even...Because of their marketing and design, the psychological aspects they have been able to attach to their products.
Like farmville? You don't even HAVE to pay to play it. I'm sure there's data somewhere, and i'm pretty confident the vast, vast majority of players spend way less than the 60 bucks you dropped on assassins creed throughout their farmville career.
advertisement creeping into every bit of my life? that the intention of media to educate/entertain/inform me shifts away from this to just sell me stuff? getting a damn break from people trying to get to my money? That I have to use focus even more from separating ads from real content?
Also I doubt your capitalist take on "the bad kinds of advertising will disappear". Where have they ever disappeared? They're getting more and more. There's even animated ads with audio in the elevators here in China (talk about annoying!). On the headrests of the front passenger in taxis - same thing! (also with audio! poor drivers who have to hear this all day long). By that definition there are no unsuccessful advertising ways. It just get's more and it gets harder to "escape" and for some reason I think I am not the only one who'd like a bit less advertising in their lifes....
The sad part is that there are more people like Bob in the world than there are not, and companies know that, and even now they are willingly admitting it.
They are basically saying "Hey there are 10 billion idiots in the world if I charged everyone of of those idiots a dollar I would have 10 billion dollars, that sounds great"
I do not want to be one of those idiots, and I do not want my children do be one of those idiots.
It may feel like i'm cutting out and ignoring most of your post here, but i think this is really the important point, and the rest of your argument pivots on it.
My question is: isnt that 'feeling' a commodity? Isnt the consumer given the choice between the product they feel good about and the product they don't feel good about?
The fact that people will pay for a vague comforting 'feel' isnt scary or surprising at all. I'm pretty sure that's why the entertainment industry exists. The reason you like one videogame over the other is down to the esoteric feel of the mechanics. If books, movies, games, paintings, music, and plays are allowed to charge massive amounts of money for a product just cause they can influence the audience to feel good about it, why can't Axe bodywash?
I spent that money because I chose to, its not about how much money you spent on what but why you did it. These people know that signing up for a ridiculous credit card is bad for them, but they are being influenced to do something that is bad for them by someone else. That's wrong.
The bad kind isnt getting more popular! The kind that you personally dont like is getting more and more popular. Being a minority sucks, i agree, but it's part of life, and not a part invented by evil marketers.
Wait a minute.
A comsumer has free will to buy assasins creed 2, but a consumer does not have free will to sign up for a farmville sponsered credit card?
Explain the difference to me. Both products had untold millions in advertising. And, you said no to one but yes to the other. I've, up to this point, said no to both. Doesn't that imply an option to choose, influences aside?
Same old discussion as with why americans and europeans have different takes on social system. Is the individual to blame or the situation (MMOs being available)? Probably a bit of both I'd say.
I might even be a victim of it myself and that's pretty depressing.
Of course they're captivating experiences. But the fact remains, unless you make the conscious choice to play them, and to continue playing them, they are not captivating anybody. Is it wrong to captivate someone who knowingly pays money to be captivated, and keeps coming back?
lets wait and see what's happening...
Imo this is a result of the change in the gaming-wold. Not the nerd is playing .. everyone is playing. So the nerds become a minority .. again :poly122:
And I want polycount achievements e.g. for giving newbs good advices here on the boards:D
I'm a bit of a fitness freak. I got into athletics and it changed my life and mindset for the better, all over. A lot of times i'll talk my friends into just spontaneously doing pushups, to try and improve their habits.
That is an act of manipulation . I'm changing what they'll do today to suit my purpose. My purpose is benevolent, but even so, is it immoral? If it is, i guess i had better lock myself alone and avoid all contact with the outside world for the rest of my days, because it is impossible not to be an agent of influence on anyone you come into contact with, however small.
Or would it only be immoral if i worked at a marketing firm?
Rollin, dont talk like that! soon we'll be evilly manipulating people into becoming better arists!
... wait, oh god, has it already begun!?
I think you're confusing this. The reason those ads are there isn't because the majority approves them or buys these products.
The reason they are there is because there's a MINORITY dumb enough to react to these annoying ads and buys stuff so that the company still makes a profit, no matter how tiny. That's the only reason those ads are there. Same with most other obnoxious ads you encounter very day. There's very few people who ask for ads being plastered everywhere.
I'm pretty sure a majority of people find them just as damn annoying as I do.... especially those poor shanghai cab drivers
ever heard of obsessive gambling? It just doesn't have to be casinos. can be online games too. or call-in shows or horoscopes. Some people's brains are just wired to get hooked to stuff like this where normal people would say it's a matter of free will. but it isn't.
http://tusb.stanford.edu/2007/04/hivaids_awareness_ads_youll_re.html
A majority of their market prefers them to other advertisements they've tried. That's the only majority that matters.
I mean, this is a generalization, sometimes dumbasses look at the sales data and say WE ARE DOING IT THE INEFFECTIVE WAY, but that's not exactly the norm, and those companies wont be around/managed that way too long
But it would be wrong if you got $10 for every person you got to do pushups, then your manipulation would be fueled by greed.
To me the bottom line is, I enjoy playing games for what they are. I dont need achievements, points, whatever. I think what worries me and FC (besides the 1984 nature of it, as thats a whole different subject), its just that this approach to gaming is all about exploiting the 'psy hooks' this guy is talking about and making money off it. Then see why it worked for a given product, and make new profitable games off it.
For sure games are somehow a business. But when nintendo made the Wii, they didnt think of microtransactions or rubber velvet rope strategies. They just made their thing and it worked.
A friend of mine just released a very nice game on the iphone. It's selling extremely well, and no need for monthly payements.
Now I know that if you run a business, "milking games" are a great idea. It's just that business first, gameplay second is meh to me when it comes to pretty much everything. Id rather buy the quality product rather than the cheap one coming with a coupon to get a free plastic unicorn if I accept to pay 1$ a month.
It might be great for the millions of bored Facebook players. It's just not for me as an individual, so when this is advertised as 'the future of gaming', it just irks me. Future of profitable hybrid businesses based on a gaming as a product, yes. Future of gaming and lifestyle, hell no. Facebook sucks anyways!
Also, america is not the whole world. Not everybody has the same attitude when it comes to monthly payements, credit card stuff and so on.
So yeah its all fascinating and very sad at the same time.
So, you make cool art for a living. You goal is to cause people to like your art.
When you get a job because your art made people like it, will you earn a place in hell?
But gameplay IS the business. The fact that your friends' game is making money shows that! plenty of farmville imitators are bombing. Farmville is successful because people DO want a game like that they can play competitively while they're bored on facebook, and farmville is the best/best marketed one.
Your friend's game is surely making money because people DO want a game they can just pay for once and have fun with, and it's a quality product!
There is no evil manipulation going on here. Just providing a service people want, and letting them choose to waste their money on it instead of a different, competing service.
America isnt the whole world! and america's economy is in trouble. Maybe people really dont like this kind of a milking of a product, and soon our entertainment industry will collapse, and this whole thing we'll die out! That's actually exactly how it is supposed to work.
editeditedit:
Forgot to mention, the whole 'future of gaming' thing is a bit of a misunderstanding. Given his expertise and his subject, it's kinda implied he's talking about what is going to have a big market share soon, not what EVERY SINGLE GAME is going to turn into. When everquest came out people started talking about how MMOs were going to be the next big thing, but only idiots thought they would replace other gaming.
Bob needs to make good choices. It's sad that Bob's parents and the educational system he went through didn't teach Bob that. It's sad that he made it to the legal age of adulthood without being taught how to be an adult.
I honestly don't care how Bob comes to the decision that signing up for a crap credit card offer to get a virtual cow is a bad idea but if he can't see that up front then maybe getting his wallet worked over by a credit card company will wake him up.
Bob has a problem with X.
We shut down X.
Bob now has a problem with Y.
We shut down Y.
Bob now has a problem with Z.
We shut down Z.
The problem isn't with XY or Z its with Bob.
Now everyone has a problem with Bob, an angry mob forms and asks Bob to kill himself so everyone that doesn't have a problem, can get back to having fun with XY and Z.
Bob's life will improve when Bob stops making bad choices. I shouldn't have to force good choices on someone else. I don't mind educating them but I shouldn't be forced to be their nanny.
At least I wish it was like that. I am pretty sure that kids playing Webkinz on a computer develop less imagination and skills than with regular toys. Now it's just a personal opinion. (blah blah I'm brainwashed, there is no more value in being smart than being dumb, blablabla everybody picks what they want to be blablabla)
I just tend to firmly believe than a world with less 'bored computer time' and more real life interaction would be, hmmm, better. Less Bobs and more educated choices.
Well, i agree. In fact, i'm of the personal opinion that everyone should learn to fight. Boxing or wrestling or something. The human body was evolved/built/whatever not just to exercise, but to defend themselves from predators/eachother. Not being sarcastic, this is my actual opinion, they're incredibly fun, healthy, safe sports...
But what i'm getting at is that the vast majority of people are not going to agree with me or want to get punched in the face. Or let their kids get punched in their face. They'd rather stay in their comfort zone, whether it's taking walks in the park, or staying at home, or staying on facebook. And i guess i don't see anything wrong with providing a service to make your comfort zone more fun. If you want to live life that way, it's your choice.
You know? Society may be lazy, but it's not marketers' fault. Got to make a living somehow, and lazy money is as good as badass money.
You intend to make videogames. Absurd levels of hypocrisy. Do you know how many lazy, pathetic assholes use videogames as an excuse to do fuckall with their lives?
The problem is the invasive nature of the advertisements described in the video. I can choose to turn off the TV, or simply not look at billboards. But it's ads like kwramm describe (audio/video ads that you can't possibly avoid or turn off, in the proccess of your day to day life) that crosses the line for me.
If a long running game, where people played/grinded to get enhancements/loot introduce an item shop that sells game altering items. You pay money - you get more powerful.
Is there a demand? sure, who doesn't want to own at PvP? Is the company doing its best to satisfy the demand? sure! So all is well? not really because just adding a uber powerful sword to the game could have been easily added as loot. So your money isn't even compensating the company for hard work.
Okay you say, now people pay for an advantage that's just fair and a company can sell what ever they want. You don't have to buy it. However their advantage becomes your disadvantage - no matter if you want to play part in this money making move or not. It is forced onto you. What do you do? Give up the game you love? Keep playing being frustrated that now everyone who choses to buy an overpriced item beats you? In the end you will end up buying the content just as everyone else does. The company won. You will keep enjoying the game despite being "tricked" out of your money. Because once everyone bought the premium content nobody is better off than before as the power balance is yet the same again.
This actually happened in an MMO I played and such item shops have been quite an issue so far within the community. While it's not the zombiecalypse nor especially despicable I don't think these are ways I like items being "sold" in games.
I would really prefer it if it were like SupRore says - you pay for a quality and fun product - but especially with micro transactions and DLC stuff there's a lot of questionable things out there (a lot of cool stuff too though).
Just because quality and fun products are success doesnt mean there arent questionable products out there. But didn't you and a lot of other players quit that mmo? Free markets don't self regulate INSTANTLY, but there is change when bad products are provided.
At some point people need to stop blaming external forces and take ownership of their lives.
As I said many posts ago :P If marketers and advertising can 'outsmart' someone into during something, more power to them. It's the PERSON'S fault for being an idiot. I realize the frustration here, but the blame is pointing in the wrong direction...
I am taking ownership of what I do, and I will raise my children to not be idiots.
I have yet to see anyone get any kind of money out of me by pulling the "are we there yet" routine. You'll get a kick in the nuts before you get a quarter.
oh man these are so cool
Anyway, I bought the item like everyone else because I wanted to play with my friends. We wanted to stay competitive when PvPing (peer pressure: c'mon gear up everyone else has that stuff! we need to pwn).
So I needed the item and made a conscious decision to spend my money? yes.
However after everyone in the game had the items the game didn't change. No increased fun, no new adventures. Just some less cash in the wallet. It's not a good feeling if a game company does this because just quitting a game like that and leaving your friends and the good times behind is much easier said than done.
And those are exactly the type of sales that I do not want to see. Yet they're usually the most easy for cash desperate devs to pull off.
So how many more did you buy after that?
The company made you feel bad, and that's bad business practice, not just dishonest moneymaking. They lost a lot of fans, because they made a backhanded, immoral move, and people noticed. Again, self regulation of a free market is NOT perfect, or even close, but it definitely does work to some degree.
for some time now, i've theorized that poops killed suprore and has taken his place... sylar/nathan style
He sends me angry PMs about his crackpot political ideas or why all men should have 6packs sometimes!
I REALLY hope you're right :P
unfortunately there's that school of thought that whatever sticks, is good advertising. headon anyone?
[ame]
Not sure how well that actually worked for them in terms of sales, but i know a hell of a lot of people know what headon is :P