It seems to be impossible to find a job as a Modeler in this industry

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Wasn't sure which sub-forum this should go, so I settled on here.

Anyway, I was just thinking about how amazingly difficult it is to actually become a general modeler/content creator (environment, prop, even character) in the industry. Even I have not yet really technically accomplished it per se. And yet I look at all the people being funneled through for-profit colleges and curriculum's (or even regular college curriculum's now) for stuff like Game Art or Game Design and feel very depressed at the situation (which was exemplified when I attended GDC and saw all the "students" trying their best to get their portfolios reviewed).

I'm sure a good portion of users on this forum spends their time daily looking at job lists and such, trying to find any meager artist opening that is available. Usually there isn't though, not without the ever-popular "Senior" designation in front of it these days. After all, almost every company has jumped on the outsourcing bandwagon now and realized they can get cheap work done in China/India/Russia, so there's no longer a need to hire even mid-level artists, and you can forget about Juniors. Oh yeah, and good luck finding a company that hires full-time. If you're lucky they'll just hire you as a contractor without any benefits/sick days and extend you for a while then let you go.

I keep trying to fathom how someone without any experience in the industry is supposed to even be able to get their first job nowadays. Even I with a few years of experience am unemployed and do not have much in the way of good prospects. And it gets more depressing the more you realize how much better so many others are at the craft than you yourself are, with decades of experience competing against you, not just locally, but globally too (yay outsourcing).

I guess I'm just wondering how some people are able to manage. I'd imagine after a few years of no luck, one would likely just give up (or realize they should try for something else than an artist/content creator and become something more specialized like a rigger or tech artist). I hope I'm not insulting anyone by speaking bluntly about my thoughts regarding the current state of the industry. Because personally, it's not a bright one.

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  • Joseph Silverman
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    Joseph Silverman polycounter lvl 12
    Get better at art. Not to say that you're bad, or anything, and i'm sure you've worked hard so far, but when it comes down to it: If you don't have a job yet, it'll help to get better.
  • Vio
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    Vio polycounter lvl 6
    I don't believe its about experience or education anymore. Make something insanely beautiful and you will get hired, simple as that I find.

    I feel bad for those students who fall for that scam of paying to work for free just to get experience, A: only rich people can go for that and B: good art skills are not based on class.

    At the end of the day if the first artist has no degree or work experience but has an awesome portfolio, compared to a second artist who has a degree and a placement on their CV, but an average portfolio. I would put money on the first getting a job earlier.

    There are some teenagers on Polycount that haven't finish high school yet who will probably land a job as soon as they finish because they have mad talent levels. Usually its because they found sites like this early. I sure wish I had known about polycount when I was 17.

    I know this because I'm in the same boat, just about to graduate and the job hunt is on but if I don't have a job in another 2 years its only my fault for not having the talent. I'm not going to go about this year feeling like I have a sense of entitlement because I have a degree now. What I will do is set a load of projects, keep busy, keep learning, read the books, get crits. I find almost every week I learn something new to make my work look better and that's what you need to do too, set those targets man, talent doesn't have to be imitable.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 14
    work on your art, network. You live in the San Francisco bay area, there's probably game dev meetups and IGDA gatherings.

    Also change your state of mind, if you believe it's impossible to get in then it will be.
  • brandoom
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    brandoom polycounter lvl 9
    Giving up won't get you anywhere.. Took me three years after school to get my first industry job.

    You need to keep working.. improving.. evolving. Can't sit still in this industry. Get any experience you can.. mod teams, contract work, freelance, etc.. put it on your resume and keep applying. And always keep working on your portfolio.

    You'll get it eventually.. just a matter of time.
  • Snader
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    Snader polycounter lvl 9
    Make good things and interact with people.
  • MainManiac
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    MainManiac polycounter lvl 8
    write less post more portfolio link
  • Soul_of_Solace
    Hmmph, my point wasn't so much about myself, as much as I was thinking of the general state of things. I wasn't saying I myself was giving up, but lamenting more for those who have been searching for years and still haven't gotten anywhere.

    Also I think of how badly the industry treats its employees. Sure, that seems to be true for most jobs these days, but I stay on top of the news and continue to read story after story of employees not getting paid, being forced to work overtime for no pay, putting up with shitty work environments. And lets not get into the whole, general pay for an artist sucks compared to others in the development team.

    And the problems won't change, because of the saturation of people that keeps coming out of those schools and are willing to take any job for any pay (or none at all) just to get in.

    Also, the whole "just get better at art" is probably the most unhelpful piece of advice one can give. Because it is all purely subjective. I've seen art directors pan things I find great from other artists while loving things I just don't see the "art" in. Building skills and becoming more knowledgeable in a subject is a better way to go about things.

    And of course, keeping a positive mindset through the whole thing is necessary. But as days turn into weeks, then into months and years, and you still do not have an actual job, well, unemployment only gets you so far, even with a smile on your face. Even if you manage to learn new stuff in that time, create new content, etc. It is of little comfort when no one out there will give you a chance.

    Also, just for fun, can someone point me to a non-senior modeler position that exists in the USA? I've not come across one in my recent memory.
  • Alberto Rdrgz
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    Alberto Rdrgz polycounter lvl 9
    "but lamenting more for those who have been searching for years and still haven't gotten anywhere."

    That's not on the industry, to be honest. That falls on your end. Last year i gave it all i had, started fresh and green and yesterday i had an interview that blew my mind. The industry is easy if you love doing it, take it like an exercise.

    everyday you should go at it in a way that makes you leaner, stronger, and keep a constant look out for your weaknesses and don't shy away from them. If you're dedicated and passionate it's not hard to do anything.

    EDIT: also, try Gamedevmap.com and gamasutra.com, they always have postings.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    Also, just for fun, can someone point me to a non-senior modeler position that exists in the USA? I've not come across one in my recent memory.

    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/med/2996531095.html

    3D Anatomy Modeling Technician for Medical Device Company (san jose downtown)
    No previous modeling experience required. We will provide on-site training with our software.
    It's not game modelling but if you're entry level I recommend taking whatever PAID opportunity that falls your way. Dream big by starting small.

    Good luck.

    Not that it matters, took me less than 2 minutes to find it.
  • Two Listen
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    Two Listen polycounter lvl 10
    Also, the whole "just get better at art" is probably the most unhelpful piece of advice one can give.

    It's honestly what most people who wind up in a rut over this sort of thing need to hear and understand from my point of view. Yeah, there are problems with the industry. With modern "society" and the job market in general. But for a lot of the situations people wind up in, responsibility falls on them.

    Pursuing any sort of art as a career (or even just being serious about it as a hobby) is an incredibly, incredibly difficult endeavor. The act of "creating" has so much to it it's absolutely mind boggling. It's much more personal than most other career paths, and getting better pretty much involves failing over and over and over.

    I think people need to treat their artistic careers like they should probably treat relationships: Work hard, be patient. Seek out, acknowledge, and learn from your failures and shortcomings. Don't jump at the first or most convenient opportunities. Realize and accept the strong possibility that you could be waiting a long time (years) to find what's right for you.

    I wonder how many of the artists I admire could honestly say they've succeeded more than they've failed, when it came to their work? Probably very few.
  • dii
    Victim thinking is a really stagnating perspective.

    It's always tempting to blame your school, the industry, China, whatever, for why you can't get a job... The truth is there are job openings everywhere and it isn't because studios aren't getting applicants; It's because the applicants they're getting can't work at the level they need so they leave the position unfilled and split the workload between their current artists.
    Also, just for fun, can someone point me to a non-senior modeler position that exists in the USA? I've not come across one in my recent memory.
    Here's 7, and only 7 because I felt it was more than enough to make my point...
    http://tbe.taleo.net/NA5/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1098
    http://tbe.taleo.net/NA5/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1112
    http://jobs.zenimax.com/requisitions/view/71
    http://activision.taleo.net/careersection/00003/jobdetail.ftl
    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/careers/posting.html?id=0900036
    https://www.rockstargames.com/jobs/position/d4221fd367f945c4ce6e5503bf029842/rockstar-san-diego
    https://www.rockstargames.com/jobs/position/9e97763c4af6a7c14478f03b0c32b5c8/rockstar-san-diego
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm greentooth
    what "two listen" said. For most people getting into the industry required a lot of work and patience. I know people who were lucky and got gigs at AAA studios right away, but I also know equally talented people who weren't getting anywhere for up to 2 years after graduation.

    Also follow magic sugar's advice. Take what you can get. It gets you experience (as in hands on) and experience (as on the resume)! Actually this job sounds pretty great if you want to get into character modeling later.

    Keep in mind, 3D modeler is a specialized profession. And it's only in demand by specialized (visualization, games, film) industries.
  • Moosey_G
    11 posts and no portfolio link? :\

    Art isn't really a technical thing, at least in my view. Sure, there's a technical side to game related art and being proficient in that side of things is always great, but really it's all about creating pieces that have some "soul" in them. How a studio quantifies that is up to them, so you just have to push the boundaries of what they're expecting. Because if a game sells poorly studios don't just suck it up, they cut have to cut back. I think they have a right in that respect to be quite discriminating.

    Just look at Alberto's highpoly work, or Justin Meisse's handpainted textures.

    They, like others, set the bar for what the minimum is required from an artist. Industry experience shouldn't really be (at least I assume) what truly grows you as an artist. You can either create work up to par with the assests a widely shipped game or you cannot (for the time being.) I don't see a reason in holding other artists and studios as objects of obstruction when much the opposite, they're your lifeblood.

    Also, I don't really know of any modeling positions haven been or that are currently available. Generally being a one trick pony like that will lead to a dead end. As an environment artists for example, you should know modeling high to low/excellent unwrapping/next gen texturing for sure, but I don't see a bright future if you're not also fluent in at least one public developer kit. Because level design, lighting, and shader work is pretty much where I see everyone at in that field.

    I mean, just look at some of the requirements from different studios. A non senior position from a studio like bungie requires such things as
    Light spaces using proprietary lighting tools
    Create and place detail objects, decals, dynamic lights, and animated objects
    Understand light, value, composition, color, staging and detail in environmental design
    Good sense of scale and spatial awareness
    Understand how the environment affects gameplay
    Knowledge of Photoshop, Maya, Max and other 2D/3D applications

    or Splash Damage:
    Excellent eye for light, colour and detail in modeling high-poly to bake down to low-poly models
    A superb eye for form, colour and silhouette, plus the ability to add weight to your work by showing a good knowledge of how things are constructed or work, both organically and architecturally
    A background in Architecture
    A good understanding of lighting
    Experience with working in Unreal
    Texture painting skills

    And personally, those are the kind of bars I would hold myself to, because that's the eventual goal, yes? :)
  • Soul_of_Solace
    dii wrote: »
    Victim thinking is a really stagnating perspective.

    It's always tempting to blame your school, the industry, China, whatever, for why you can't get a job... The truth is there are job openings everywhere and it isn't because studios aren't getting applicants; It's because the applicants they're getting can't work at the level they need so they leave the position unfilled and split the workload between their current artists.
    That's not right and you know it. It's just as disingenuous to ignore the issues and simply cover your ears and say "it's your own damn fault!" than it is to blame everyone else but yourself. I also call BS on the "studios aren't getting qualified applicants" because there are plenty of qualified people out there with lots of experience who have been out of work for a while.

    Also, your job postings were for some that I've seen open for nearly a year (and one that was no longer even available). Also disproportionally character art positions as well, which is not as saturated as the Environment/Prop art world.
  • Soul_of_Solace
    Moosey_G wrote: »
    11 posts and no portfolio link? :\

    ...

    Also, I don't really know of any modeling positions haven been or that are currently available. Generally being a one trick pony like that will lead to a dead end. As an environment artists for example, you should know modeling high to low/excellent unwrapping/next gen texturing for sure, but I don't see a bright future if you're not also fluent in at least one public developer kit. Because level design, lighting, and shader work is pretty much where I see everyone at in that field.
    This isn't the pimp your portfolio forum. I posted mine in that place already. And you're right, you can't just be a "modeler" anymore (so it was probably not a good term to use in the thread title). Environment Artist seems to be what that is now, but even so, you'll be hard pressed to find any openings for that since any non-senior positions can be delegated to outsource teams (I know because I've dealt with them) to create content nowadays.
  • Racer445
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    Racer445 polycounter lvl 10
  • Wells
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    Wells polycounter lvl 14
    Your posts seem to be a lot of hyperbole based on your own limited experiences.

    We recently hired someone straight out of college. Believe it or not, people are entering the industry every day, and not all non-senior work gets farmed out to other countries.
  • pior
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    pior polycount lvl 666
    The question is :

    What do you want to do, and do you currently have the skills to do it ?
    If yes, apply to places that fit your goal ; if no, work on it more, apply to places offering entry level positions, then rinse and repeat. Nothing prevents you from contacting the places without open positions too. It never hurts to ask and get in contacts with studios.

    http://erictopf.blogspot.com/

    Your portfolio needs more pieces - and most importantly you need to make them stand out from all your competitors out there, while making them of the same quality as what is currently out there (aim to make stuff that looks better than TF2, Crysis2, Gears3, or even cool indie games).

    Besides that, it's also worth noting that there are fundamental differences between prop artist and environment artist. It seems like you are gearing towards prop artists, not env artist.
  • Soul_of_Solace
    Ugh, so many of you totally missed the point. I guess it's easier to attack the messenger than have to deal with the message.

    Even in my original post I wasn't really upset about my own current affairs, but the general state of things. Yet it seems that a lot of you were more interested in trying to attack myself rather than attack the issues. And I see you've gone and dug up my portfolio just for the hell of it. I wasn't posting it because I wasn't looking for advice here. I was trying to have a dialogue about general things, but I guess that's not possible.
  • pior
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    pior polycount lvl 666
    Three things :

    - Of course it is a personal thing - such things are always subjective, and your view on the hiring expectations in the industry totally depends of your personal life situation, current professional status, and of course skill level. You say it seems amazingly difficult - well for some it is, for some it isn't, for some it depends. It all comes down to ones skillset and its relevance to the job.

    - No one is trying to attack you, just trying to help by offering you simple advice, and giving you the point of view usually taken when reviewing art application. This is true regardless of the position : Associate, Junior, "Regular", Senior, Lead. It's all about striving to be as good as possible, there's no grey area here. I didn't dig your portfolio "for the hell of it", I did it because I was genuinely curious and wanted to take the time to offer you advice.

    - Chill out. Personality and attitude are huge factors when reviewing applicants.
  • Racer445
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    Racer445 polycounter lvl 10
    sorry. generally when one of these threads come up we kinda just assume it's someone complaining about their own situation, because that's something that happens a lot around here.

    i'm pretty sure the point still stands regardless: good artists who stand out and make friends get work. if you're not good you won't get work, plain as that. it IS a difficult endeavor regardless of what anybody says, but as long as you really keep at it and make friends along the way it shouldn't be too painful.

    so the way i see it, it's really not the industry's fault.

    creative fields are not like others where there's a lower skill cap. dii is right, there's not enough truly qualified artists, unlike accounting or regular-ass computer programming or something. studios are always looking for great artists, even if they don't advertise they're usually interested if you're real good.

    let me put it this way: of the 100+ people i've talked to over the few years i've been doing this professionally, i only know a couple truly qualified artists who don't get regular work. one has no choice (stuck in uni and way better than the teachers) and the other, while a good artist, is kinda a jerk. take it as you will.
  • Soul_of_Solace
    Racer445 wrote: »
    sorry. generally when one of these threads come up we kinda just assume it's someone complaining about their own situation, because that's something that happens a lot around here.

    i'm pretty sure the point still stands regardless: good artists who stand out and make friends get work. if you're not good you won't get work, plain as that. it IS a difficult endeavor regardless of what anybody says, but as long as you really keep at it and make friends along the way it shouldn't be too painful.

    so the way i see it, it's really not the industry's fault.
    No worries. But still, you have to admit the industry at this moment is not in the most healthy of states. How many studio closures have happened this year alone? "next-gen" gaming has pretty much bankrupted a good portion of them as is and more continue to fold everyday (Curt Shillings studio just recently, and it won't be long now until THQ is totally gone).

    As for blaming myself for my own predicament. You can rest assured I give myself a good dosage of that. Don't think for a moment I consider myself blameless. I am one who let myself get "wooed" by a for-profit school thinking I could become an artist. Even now many years later, I question what talent I have, if it even exists. I press on though, hoping that the next thing I imagine will be better than the last.

    Like when I posted my portfolio in the other forum. Didn't get much feedback outside of the previous website layout sucked ass (which it did). So I automatically assumed that the contents weren't worth much to talk about, even after I fixed the layout. So, I constantly question myself about whether my next project/asset is something worth anything.
  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 11
    That's not right and you know it. ...etc.

    I take issue with this.

    dii is 100% correct about the applicant issue. I recently had a chance to peek through the art tests of previous applicants for my current job because they're all stored on the network and available to everybody I work with. It was very plainly obvious that I got the job not because I'm an incredible artist, but because I'm just enough above average that the stuff I make stands out as being not terrible.

    And let me assure you, the average work that studios get in applications is really, really embarrassingly bad. What makes it worse is that these applicants don't actually know that the work they're making isn't up to snuff. They have no idea because they're working in a vacuum, be it as students, hobbyists, or as people looking to move over from other tangentially related industries.

    Yes, there are many people who are very highly skilled that are out of work for weeks or months at a time, and I guarantee that a lot of them don't get employed where they should because of the volume of applications from people who aren't qualified for the job. Directors, producers, art leads, HR managers and many other positions get inundated with crap portfolios from students and kids who've been told by teachers and their parents that everything they shit is gold, and there's such a huge volume of it that the people who deserve the job sometimes get lost in the shuffle.

    Thing is, though, those skilled people will eventually get good jobs because they're hirable. The people who haven't ever been in the industry and who have a hard time getting into the industry are usually the ones with crap work and bad attitudes.
  • Racer445
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    Racer445 polycounter lvl 10
    No worries. But still, you have to admit the industry at this moment is not in the most healthy of states. How many studio closures have happened this year alone? "next-gen" gaming has pretty much bankrupted a good portion of them as is and more continue to fold everyday (Curt Shillings studio just recently, and it won't be long now until THQ is totally gone).

    As for blaming myself for my own predicament. You can rest assured I give myself a good dosage of that. Don't think for a moment I consider myself blameless. I am one who let myself get "wooed" by a for-profit school thinking I could become an artist. Even now many years later, I question what talent I have, if it even exists. I press on though, hoping that the next thing I imagine will be better than the last.

    Like when I posted my portfolio in the other forum. Didn't get much feedback outside of the previous website layout sucked ass (which it did). So I automatically assumed that the contents weren't worth much to talk about, even after I fixed the layout. So, I constantly question myself about whether my next project/asset is something worth anything.

    are any industries really in good shape? i guess drug dealing is doing ok, but i probably shouldn't say anything more about that...!?

    i actually had a discussion with someone recently about "talent" and it's a really dumb, manufactured limiter. it's all too common that a potentially good artist just getting started sees art better than his own and says: "oh he's really good, he must be talented!" and gets discouraged or worse--gives up. if you're really interested in something then you can do it, nobody is just natually "talented" at something, though most people's minds are geared toward some things more than others for sure. for instance, i'm horrible at math, but i don't believe i couldn't be good at it if i really tried.

    if you don't keep doing things and figure out what you're doing wrong, how can you improve?

    i guess i just stopped believing in the concept of "talent" early on and instead learned to deconstruct every piece of good art i found, then pretty much copied it until i understood what the artist was doing and why.

    also, like Swizzle, i had the chance to look through some art tests for a studio i am currently on contract for and the quality is... poor.
  • pior
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    pior polycount lvl 666
    Racer, I agree soooo much with this!

    The term "talent" is a genuinely positive term in the mouth of people not really "in the know" (family and some friends...) but deep down it is borderline insulting. Imagine walking up to a badass performer, artist, engineer or craftman and telling him or her : "oh but that's easy for you right ? I mean it's not like you worked for years on that stuff to get where you are now, lol".
  • Alberto Rdrgz
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    Alberto Rdrgz polycounter lvl 9
    ^hahah i have to agree. It also sounds like an excuse for some people that just don't want to face the facts that consistent hard work is pretty much the way in the industry.
  • Soul_of_Solace
    pior wrote: »
    No one is trying to attack you, just trying to help by offering you simple advice, and giving you the point of view usually taken when reviewing art application. This is true regardless of the position : Associate, Junior, "Regular", Senior, Lead. It's all about striving to be as good as possible, there's no grey area here. I didn't dig your portfolio "for the hell of it", I did it because I was genuinely curious and wanted to take the time to offer you advice.
    Well, I genuinely appreciate that. Advice is something I've not had much of as of late. Well aside from the "maybe you should rethink a specialization like VFX since more jobs are needed for that" sort of advice. On a similar note...
    Swizzle wrote: »
    And let me assure you, the average work that studios get in applications is really, really embarrassingly bad. What makes it worse is that these applicants don't actually know that the work they're making isn't up to snuff. They have no idea because they're working in a vacuum, be it as students, hobbyists, or as people looking to move over from other tangentially related industries.

    Yes, there are many people who are very highly skilled that are out of work for weeks or months at a time, and I guarantee that a lot of them don't get employed where they should because of the volume of applications from people who aren't qualified for the job. Directors, producers, art leads, HR managers and many other positions get inundated with crap portfolios from students and kids who've been told by teachers and their parents that everything they shit is gold, and there's such a huge volume of it that the people who deserve the job sometimes get lost in the shuffle..
    I haven't had much in the way of positive experiences, or even learning experiences, taking art tests. Last one I took, never got feedback except for the go-to "we've chosen a candidate for the role". And the last art test I took before that was years ago. It actually got me to the in-person interview, but I never was even told what I did "right" about it either. Of course, considering the aforementioned inundation that is present, I'm not bent out of shape not knowing, simply it presents a problem of well, not knowing.
  • Lombos
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    Lombos polycounter lvl 6
    Develop a portfolio they cant resist and well...they wont. Can you think of any reason another person can do it and you cant? Blood, sweat, and tears friend.

    Is it harder now than it used to be? Probably, you basically need professional level work to get a job it seems. To me however that does make sense. We're in a field a lot of people want to break into...being alright or good is probably not good enough. Not having a well rounded, filled out, interesting portfolio is not enough.

    Personally the only reason I don't have a job in the industry is because of me. I've spent more time developing certain skills over others and have been focusing more on work that I enjoy vs doing work in which I need improvement or need to practice doing. A little self reflection or self critiquing and some advice from the fine people of Polycount can go a long way to pushing you in the right direction. Best of luck!
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    Moosey_G wrote: »

    I mean, just look at some of the requirements from different studios. A non senior position from a studio like bungie requires such things as



    or Splash Damage:



    And personally, those are the kind of bars I would hold myself to, because that's the eventual goal, yes? :)
    They are here to scary people. This way most of "zero confidence" poeple won't bother them.
    The rest will send protfolio because it doesn't hurt to try, does it ?
  • marks
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    marks polycounter lvl 10
    Well, you kind of need to be able to do mostly all of that stuff in the job though ...

    I wouldn't say its there "just to scare people".
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    True. But if you never worked, how do you know you can do it, on the level they need it ? That's my point. Most people will think "no I can't".
  • marks
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    marks polycounter lvl 10
    Right, because not being paid to make art means that you cant make art.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    No. Because you don't know who recruits and what he really look for. I've really seen many games that look well average and though who in the hell making them..
  • IchII3D
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    IchII3D polycounter lvl 8
    If you can't get a job its because your not good enough or happen to give across a serial killer vibe. I have known people to leave University and be bombarded with options, even if I see someone on this forum who has potential I recommend them.

    Honestly, it pisses me off that 90% of people at college and univercity courses sit on their ass doing fuck all for the majority of their course and then 'expect' a job. When they don't get one they complain. I'm not directing this at you personally, its just something I see over and over again.

    There is an insane amount of jobs out there for environment artists, I would agree that weapons/vehicles and characters are a lot more difficult but if your struggling to get a job, your simply not working hard enough or simply don't have the artistic ability.

    Less talk more action!

    disclaimer
    *no animals or children where harmed in the writing of this comment.*
  • Del
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    Del polycounter lvl 9
    Racer445 wrote: »
    i actually had a discussion with someone recently about "talent" and it's a really dumb, manufactured limiter. it's all too common that a potentially good artist just getting started sees art better than his own and says: "oh he's really good, he must be talented!" and gets discouraged or worse--gives up.

    ^ THIS
    pior wrote: »
    Racer, I agree soooo much with this!

    The term "talent" is a genuinely positive term in the mouth of people not really "in the know" (family and some friends...) but deep down it is borderline insulting. Imagine walking up to a badass performer, artist, engineer or craftman and telling him or her : "oh but that's easy for you right ? I mean it's not like you worked for years on that stuff to get where you are now, lol".

    ^ AND THIS


    One thing I've always love about the military is that they don't ever allow talent to be used a measurement. If you are a PILOT, and someone says "You're a great pilot", you simply reply "I've have over 1100 hours piloting aircrafts sir".

    BAM

    No bullshit about how you had always liked planes as a kid or none of that shit. Your 'worth' is simply measured in the amount of time you spent doing your practicing.

    I really wish student game artists would start to look at that approach more, because ODIN KNOWS that I've spent a fuckton of hours improving and like Racer and Pior said; it had nothing to do with 'innate talent'
  • d1ver
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    d1ver polycounter lvl 10
    Swizzle wrote: »
    ...
    Yes, there are many people who are very highly skilled that are out of work for weeks or months at a time, and I guarantee that a lot of them don't get employed where they should because of the volume of applications from people who aren't qualified for the job. Directors, producers, art leads, HR managers and many other positions get inundated with crap portfolios from students and kids who've been told by teachers and their parents that everything they shit is gold, and there's such a huge volume of it that the people who deserve the job sometimes get lost in the shuffle.
    ...

    Now, that's an interesting thought. Never thought about it that way, thanks man.

    On the OP, I wanted to link and oldie but goldie:
    http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/money_mouth.htm

    If I were you, instead of looking for compassion on the internets I'd be working hard making another environment.
    Wanna guess which one will get you(or anyone else for that matter) a job sooner?
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 7
    With that attitude Soul, I don't think you will end up being a great person to 'work' with. There is a difference between analyzing and criticizing the industry vs. being an outright cynic.
  • Grimmstrom
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    Grimmstrom polycounter lvl 7
    People often seem to forget that the more people a company hires for outsourcing, the more people you need in-house to handle all of the feedback.

    Granted you'll be disappointed that your not getting to create assets all day, everyday, but you'll still be getting to do that 50% of the time and you'll be building up that all important experience and knowledge.

    Also I disagree with what your saying about junior and mid-level artists not having many chances. Companies that aren't making games with massive budgets often prefer to hire this level of artist because of cheaper wages.
  • Vio
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    Vio polycounter lvl 6
    It seems like the word talent and its meaning is being hi-jacked. It can also mean what your current level of skill is, not something your born with. If someone does a better model than me and I say they are more talented, it means at the moment they have more skill.

    Not he would do better and find it easier to do better because he already has talent. People who are not artists that come to see your work in a game will say "wow he's/she's a talented artist. Its not dirty word.

    Back to the subject though, Soul, you can't fall for that trap of assuming how it is in the industry because you feel students aren't getting much luck if you're not already on the other side of the fence seeing from the industries side. You got to remember its a business tied to technology and standards are always rising.

    In an ideal world the industry would have more say in what the students are taught, they would get more involved so that students are more ready when they graduate but that's not the industries business model to take time off all the time to go to universities.

    What I have learned from doing a degree is, although my tutors were amazing, their hands were tied on a lot of the curriculum. An example would be how most students have to spend many hours writing reports, even modellers and that is a huge distraction from working on your portfolio. Now if your a modeller the industry won't give a dam about your dissertation, they will only want to see your portfolio.
  • Moosey_G
    Vio wrote: »
    It seems like the word talent and its meaning is being hi-jacked. It can also mean what your current level of skill is, not something your born with. If someone does a better model than me and I say they are more talented, it means at the moment they have more skill.

    Not he would do better and find it easier to do better because he already has talent. People who are not artists that come to see your work in a game will say "wow he's/she's a talented artist. Its not dirty word.

    Back to the subject though, Soul, you can't fall for that trap of assuming how it is in the industry because you feel students aren't getting much luck if you're not already on the other side of the fence seeing from the industries side. You got to remember its a business tied to technology and standards are always rising.

    In an ideal world the industry would have more say in what the students are taught, they would get more involved so that students are more ready when they graduate but that's not the industries business model to take time off all the time to go to universities.

    What I have learned from doing a degree is, although my tutors were amazing, their hands were tied on a lot of the curriculum. An example would be how most students have to spend many hours writing reports, even modellers and that is a huge distraction from working on your portfolio. Now if your a modeller the industry won't give a dam about your dissertation, they will only want to see your portfolio.

    I think the general consensus of talent is an inclination towards natural grasp and/or intrinsic ability. However, the meaning is somewhat semantical. All people are agreeing upon is art is a skill like anything else, which I believe you've just pointed as well.
  • walreu
    You should also consider looking for jobs outside US.
    And getting money isn't the thing in this industry, most people would probably say that they work in this biz because they love it and would't want to do anything else. Getting paid is just and awesome plus for being able to do something that you love.

    I get my hopes up for getting first industry job when i think where i was 3 years ago. I started animation/games studies at school. I didn't know anything about 3d modeling. Now i already have done some freelancing, getting in touch of some of the people in the industry and i have my portfolio in a good start.
  • yodude87
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    yodude87 polycounter lvl 5
    walreu wrote: »
    You should also consider looking for jobs outside US.
    And getting money isn't the thing in this industry, most people would probably say that they work in this biz because they love it and would't want to do anything else. Getting paid is just and awesome plus for being able to do something that you love.

    this, mainly the outside the US part. dont limit yourself. i for one live in italy, and KNOW that there arent really any developers in italy for what its worth. so if i want any chance, i MUST move. and outside of here.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 13
    The issue is not that it's hard to get a modeling position in the industry, because people with skills and experience will get absorbed.

    The problem is that there is an oversaturation of junior level graduates, most of whom are not employable. They are promised jobs and real skills at school only to realize that they can only compete for a QA position.

    That's why every time a thread like this pops up, it turns out to be a student with a mediocre portfolio at best. Nobody owes you a position. The bitter truth is that if you have troubles finding work, it's probably due to your location and quality of work.

    To them, it always seems like there are obstacles to break into the industry due to impossible expectations for an entry level position. To us, it just means that there are more and more unqualified graduates who were never going to be hired, diploma or not.

    It is, in the end, an individual problem. The state of the economy has no impact on your portfolio. You are not competing against other veterans for the job. That's a myth. If you are applying for a junior position your are competing against other juniors.
  • Vio
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    Vio polycounter lvl 6
    Moosey_G wrote: »
    I think the general consensus of talent is an inclination towards natural grasp and/or intrinsic ability. However, the meaning is somewhat semantical. All people are agreeing upon is art is a skill like anything else, which I believe you've just pointed as well.

    Well I grew up with gained talent an natural talent being different things lol

    For the sake of getting in sync with the general consensus though I will just refer to it as skill or skilled people in future, which is what I meant by it in my first post in this thread.
  • biofrost
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    biofrost polycounter lvl 7
    Fuse wrote: »
    The issue is not that it's hard to get a modeling position in the industry, because people with skills and experience will get absorbed.

    The problem is that there is an oversaturation of junior level graduates, most of whom are not employable. They are promised jobs and real skills at school only to realize that they can only compete for a QA position.

    That's why every time a thread like this pops up, it turns out to be a student with a mediocre portfolio at best. Nobody owes you a position. The bitter truth is that if you have troubles finding work, it's probably due to your location and quality of work.

    To them, it always seems like there are obstacles to break into the industry due to impossible expectations for an entry level position. To us, it just means that there are more and more unqualified graduates who were never going to be hired, diploma or not.

    It is, in the end, an individual problem. The state of the economy has no impact on your portfolio. You are not competing against other veterans for the job. That's a myth. If you are applying for a junior position your are competing against other juniors.
    Quoted for truth. I am not in the industry yet because my skill level is not up to par. Anyone in this situation has only one choice, practice. You can't just expect to do some modeling an hour a day and get a job in the industry you need to work for it. Try and get 5 or 6 hours a day(my guess 3-4 of those will be productive)

    Once you do that everyday and have fun with it(most important thing) jobs will start to contact you when you send them your resume. Hard work and a good attitude pays off.
  • yodude87
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    yodude87 polycounter lvl 5
    biofrost wrote: »
    Quoted for truth. I am not in the industry yet because my skill level is not up to par. Anyone in this situation has only one choice, practice. You can't just expect to do some modeling an hour a day and get a job in the industry you need to work for it. Try and get 5 or 6 hours a day(my guess 3-4 of those will be productive)

    Once you do that everyday and have fun with it(most important thing) jobs will start to contact you when you send them your resume. Hard work and a good attitude pays off.

    amen to that, brother.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 8
    get to know people in the industry, improve your skill and artwork, work on small mod projects, and get to be known as the guy who just gets shit done, and does it well.

    edit:


    also your portfolio, more environments, and dump the pre-rendered stuff, your showing off game art, so it should be presented in a game engine, or atleast a real-time shader.
  • low odor
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    low odor polycounter lvl 12
    job hunting is always nerve racking no matter what field you are in.

    Just remember the onus is on you. You're choosing to be a part of this crazy world we call the games industry. Just remember the rule of the three Ps

    PPP

    Portfolio
    be Persistent
    hand fulls of Percoset to keep you numb as you get laid of for the 12th time
    ...I mean stay Positive...
  • Skillmister
    Del wrote: »
    One thing I've always love about the military is that they don't ever allow talent to be used a measurement. If you are a PILOT, and someone says "You're a great pilot", you simply reply "I've have over 1100 hours piloting aircrafts sir".

    "The separation between talent and skill is one of the greatest misunderstood concepts for people who are trying to excell, who have dreams, who wanna do things.
    Talent you have naturally, skill is only developed through hours and hours and hours of beating on your craft."
  • Soul_of_Solace
    It keeps sounding as if people aren't really reading my posts, but just the thread title.

    I did not start this thread to solicit advice for myself (again, I'd have posted in the portfolio forum if I had sought that). I was trying to discuss the current situation in the industry as it relates to hiring and jobs on a general basis, taking into account the massive amount of cost-cutting measures that have been implemented by most large companies and how that is negatively impacting the marketplace.

    I guess it is easier not to have a dialog about those things and simply target an individual. And no, I'm not feeling persecuted, but disappointed that this thread turned out the way it did.
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