Hmm.. Requesting some life advice, please?
Will have a tl;dr so this can be skipped:
So last time I posted one of these I got glorious direction about 1.5 years ago. I skipped on going to DeVry or something crappy and was told about Gnomon and began my journey to get accepted. At the time I had no drawing experience, I have been accepted to the 3 year recently and am about mid way through my first week there.
So, just to get it out of the way, I want to be a 3d modeler.. I am interested in concept art and I like drawing but probably not as much as 3d. There's really no other end game for me I believe, just the only question I have is the path. I love the school I am now in, Gnomonschool, but the schedule is brutal. Its brutal for me right now but I can make it, in a few months it will get 2x harder. In a year they say I'll pretty much be living on this and being there. I don't know if I can pull that off, and its like a 20k risk.
My entry folio that was accepted is: http://xk0art.blogspot.com/
I have more recent figure drawings and stuff that I haven't scanned in but I guess I can if necessary.
So basically what I'm looking for is just advice, personal experiences, how it is done, etc. My options are pretty much risk dying at school and have a miserable 3 years where I don't get any free time because of the ridiculous pace and having to learn things like compositing which i dont need i think but someone might so its in the curriculum.... Or go the self teach route. Go to the school for a few classes a week, nothing serious, and maybe in 3-4 years get a job just the same.. Just NO CERTIFICATE but an easier lifestyle. Is getting a job a matter of posting good work on here and then sending emails to studios in 3 years?
TLDR-
Considering leaving my school because its going to get really intense soon and I don't know if worth taking 20k risk on 1st year to finish an 80k 3yr program.
Does anyone have any similar experiences?
Is it smart to only take the classes specifically I want or is stuff like NUKE going to be really important for a 3d modeler?
Based on my work do I have a good foundation to start going back to modeling? Or will more always help?
Worried about networking, I know this site is great but not really sure how to get that going and I guess I don't need to for a few yrs tho. Also this site is from what I understand more game oriented, but I *THINK* I want to get into modeling for films. Not set tho.
So... thanks to anyone who reads this and replies =D
So last time I posted one of these I got glorious direction about 1.5 years ago. I skipped on going to DeVry or something crappy and was told about Gnomon and began my journey to get accepted. At the time I had no drawing experience, I have been accepted to the 3 year recently and am about mid way through my first week there.
So, just to get it out of the way, I want to be a 3d modeler.. I am interested in concept art and I like drawing but probably not as much as 3d. There's really no other end game for me I believe, just the only question I have is the path. I love the school I am now in, Gnomonschool, but the schedule is brutal. Its brutal for me right now but I can make it, in a few months it will get 2x harder. In a year they say I'll pretty much be living on this and being there. I don't know if I can pull that off, and its like a 20k risk.
My entry folio that was accepted is: http://xk0art.blogspot.com/
I have more recent figure drawings and stuff that I haven't scanned in but I guess I can if necessary.
So basically what I'm looking for is just advice, personal experiences, how it is done, etc. My options are pretty much risk dying at school and have a miserable 3 years where I don't get any free time because of the ridiculous pace and having to learn things like compositing which i dont need i think but someone might so its in the curriculum.... Or go the self teach route. Go to the school for a few classes a week, nothing serious, and maybe in 3-4 years get a job just the same.. Just NO CERTIFICATE but an easier lifestyle. Is getting a job a matter of posting good work on here and then sending emails to studios in 3 years?
TLDR-
Considering leaving my school because its going to get really intense soon and I don't know if worth taking 20k risk on 1st year to finish an 80k 3yr program.
Does anyone have any similar experiences?
Is it smart to only take the classes specifically I want or is stuff like NUKE going to be really important for a 3d modeler?
Based on my work do I have a good foundation to start going back to modeling? Or will more always help?
Worried about networking, I know this site is great but not really sure how to get that going and I guess I don't need to for a few yrs tho. Also this site is from what I understand more game oriented, but I *THINK* I want to get into modeling for films. Not set tho.
So... thanks to anyone who reads this and replies =D
Replies
Bootcamp is definitely a good word to describe it. I dunno, I guess this is the time I should be either learning how to get a job or working.. I'm 19... but in the same vein I'm not in a rush where 3 years would be okay but 4 wouldn't be fine, but I'd get to enjoy life a little.
And yes thats a good point, the level I have to get to will be the same... Just don't know what to do. Don't know if I still need traditional or how to get ajob if I was good or anything.. So many choices to make.
Do that for 3 years, and you'll have basically the same result. Only you wouldn't be $80k+interest in debt.
Just my 2cents.
You will not need to know any other programs than Photoshop, Zbrush, Max/Maya and the company engine (oversimplifying a little i know)
certificates are useless. At least with a BFA, you can get governmental recognition for immigration.
Teach yourself. Eat3D and online tutorials. You show no modeling examples... Env art is competitive, but not as competitive as Character Artists. To be a character artist nowadays on big projects, you pretty much have to be a master at anatomy and sculpting. I pretty much just call our Char artists sculptors now, 90% of their time is in zbrush.
Some games don't need this... but it is becoming the norm. A lot of smaller startup companies doing digital releases, and direct to consumer titles, have lower needs on thier projects. (Journey, Warp, ect)
Env art? well so many awsome examples of kick ass env art on this site
As time passed, and I saw the level of art from people on this forum alone, not to mention other places like CGTalk and CGHub, from people who didn't go to schools or colleges, who just learned through criticism and communication with forum peers... I stopped holding Gnomon in such high regard.
Now, I'm not saying Gnomon is not a great school, I'm just saying that I've seen plenty of stuff by 'self-learners' that outshines what people out of Gnomon are producing and whilst not everyone is capable of pushing themselves that hard, it's definitely possible, and when there's $80k on the table, if it was my money, I'd be strongly considering whether or not I could see the worth in it when places like PC/CGTalk/CGHub exist.
I'm not a concept artist by any stretch of the imagination, but your stuff looks pretty good to me, you certainly show a lot of potential.
Ultimately though, it's your decision. I know it can be tough though, I just had to make a similar decision about attending Animation Mentor, and I asked on a bunch of forums, got a bunch of replies but regardless of what people told me, it was still down to me to make the choice.
you will also meet a ton of people and the instructors all work in the industry, having that door open to you is very valuable. $40k may seem like a lot, and it is, you will most likely be paying that off for a decade or more, but you have a higher possibility of working in a job that pays more than mcdonals or whatever, I like to think it evens out.
like the other people have said, you get what you put in, guarantees dont exist in the world, its what YOU want to do with YOUR money.
also 3 years at gnomon would look better on a resume than "i watched 300 dvds"
Take it for what you will, but unless you plan on traveling and need an 'official' school paper to prove you're an educated human being under Governmental Regulations, I would say save the cash, get a nice PC, get the latest updated Tutos' from Digital Tutors, Eat3D, etc, don't buy any games, and crank yourself to 11.
You're allowed for bathroom breaks anytime you see fit, but porn must be divided between 4-6 hour cuts, sorry, if you don't, you might end up wanking your whole life away.
For people with no work experience, i don't care if you spent 80K or taught yourself, it's all down the the quality of the work i see.
It's down to the person drive. I've seen some amazing self taught people, others need that environment to motivate them. There is no better motivation than 40K of debt. But the school isn't a prerequisite to produce amazing work.
use this site and eat 3D and you will probably be teaching the class more than your instructor.
Also learn an engine. Download UDK and learn about streaming, kismet, budgets. Learn to make your own shaders. Build out an entire level.
for life drawing, every city has so many cheap life drawing classes you can go to and make friends and get advice.
My course personally helped me a great deal but more in just learning how to use certain programs however it cost me 30K and PolyCount is free, if only I had known about this place years ago lol
And to become open minded, skilled and so forth the only thing you need is time, interest and a community like PC for example.
still: the arguments of like getting to know ppl at the school and then just being physically around ppl with the same goal and interest like you also has its value for sure!
I was lucky as i did not loan any money for the school so my decision was easier in that case, but if i would have had to make debt to do it i definitely would not have done it!
cheers
Disclaimer, I don't mean this as an attack of you or anything, I'm just basing this off of what you have said in your posts.
" I love the school I am now in, Gnomonschool, but the schedule is brutal. Its brutal for me right now but I can make it, in a few months it will get 2x harder. In a year they say I'll pretty much be living on this and being there. I don't know if I can pull that off..."
"My options are pretty much risk dying at school and have a miserable 3 years where I don't get any free time because of the ridiculous pace...."
"Go to the school for a few classes a week, nothing serious, and maybe in 3-4 years get a job just the same.. Just NO CERTIFICATE but an easier lifestyle."
"I'm 19... but in the same vein I'm not in a rush where 3 years would be okay but 4 wouldn't be fine, but I'd get to enjoy life a little."
So, it seems like you have a bit of a problem with the time commitment aspect of this. When I was in school, I heard teachers and mentors constantly saying things like "If you want a job making games, you need to stop playing games.", "You should be spending basically all your free time working on your art.", etc. If going out, enjoying life, partying, relaxing is important to you, I hate to say it but this might be tough career for you. When starting out, you will need to pretty much dedicate yourself to it... there isn't really any way around that. And even once you get in, it's not like it ends. There are crunches, and long hours. Some studios are different from others, but I think you would be hard pressed to find a studio in the entertainment industry that has absolutely no crunch... And if you aren't willing to give up some time, make sacrifices, I can assure you that there are people out there who are willing to do it.
You make a good point but I want to be clear, its not that I want to go do something else at that time... I just want to be home. I'd gladly do the work at home. I'm pretty much fine with working all day right now at home.. But its such a big adjustment to go from spending time with my family and my dog on my lap and so on drawing to now I gotta get up at 9 and come home at 11 pm. And thats not how it is now, which is why I signed up, but more and more people are saying that is really how it gets and man thats hard.
Basically, the classes in the early morning are hard because of the time but its something I can get used to... but the labs. Those 3 hour labs, 2 to 3 times a week where I do hw.. On top of 3 6 hr classes a week which are all going to give homework... But I can deal with it, but when I hear something like hey the sculpture class you're gonna be in the sculpture lab all day. That kills me. but I am not set on abandoning it because I know even tho it costs a ton and is hard it might be the best possible option for me to get to the right level.
Also big thank you to everyone whos posted so far, just kind of reading processing thinking atm.. Don't know what I want to do. Stay and struggle, or set up the classes so I'm finished more along the lines of 3-4 years and not take some of the classes I don't really want... But that might come at a risk of not being respected by these dudes who are gonna be hiring. I dunno.
Or find a cheaper alternative-
This is where I am- http://guildhall.smu.edu/
its abut $50-60k for an intense 23 month program.
That's just the way it is man... you are going to have to make sacrifices at some point. Either now with Gnomon, or later once you get your first job. Most entry level jobs are pretty gruelling. My first QA gig at EA, I worked 12 hrs/day for 14 consecutive days (not complaining, I was thrilled for the opportunity at the time). Most of my friends that are in their first jobs right now work 12 hrs/day. Maybe I'm being a bit grim, but all evidence I've ever seen is that you need to make a pretty big time investment at first. The thing is, if you truly want to do it, you have to be prepared for that. As I mentioned, if you won't there are other people who want it bad enough that they will do pretty much anything. I know how you feel. I had to move across the country, to a city where I literally didn't know a single person. I have to spend all my free time doing art, and ignore my girl friend and dog. I have to decline my friends invitations to go out and have fun. But it's my choice, and I do it because I know this industry is where I belong.
Anyways, good luck with your decision, and no matter what you should stay involved with polycount.
I've seen sooo many student dig themselves into debt in these schools, because no one will term them "no", due to the fact you are making them money! I have 6 fresh student resume CD's now on my desk I've rejected in about 20 seconds. It's disappointing that the school wasn't honest with them at the start.
My honest feedback based JUST on your 2D website, is that dedicating yourself to cheap life drawing classes and DVD's for a year will be a better use of your time. DO that for a year, the school will still be there.
Who knows, in a year (depending on how understanding your parents are) you might think that you don't need to attend after all.
Yeah lots of good points... Thanks and yeah I will try to stay involved.
6 from gnomon? They said they have like a 96% rate of people getting 3d jobs or something but I dunno. Maybe you meant in general maybe not, the point remains and I see what you mean. And thank you for that feedback, good stuff and yes I guess theres no rush. very true.
Troof!
Gnomon certainly will give avenues of connections though their instructors and the people you meet, and being in the city. Though this forum has many contacts you can make as well. As i said it's a personal decision only you can make. Look at past student reels on their website and ask yourself if you think you can do better than that on your own.
2nd!
Couldn't agree more!
Don't decide what to study based on how much money you'll make. Do what you enjoy. Do you like making environments for players to run around in? Or creating detailed characters? Or bringing the world to life with animation? There's no job for "modeling" or "texturing" in games (At least for the most part). Also betting is a bad habit.
Thanks.
Yeah I just wanted to make sure what I enjoy wouldn't make me live in a trash can kinda deal. I got some real encouraging information from one person then totally contrary stuff from another, I still will do what I love regardless but it helps to know stuff like the gamasutra survey! I guess I can't really truthfully reply to that unless I try them all by the way... Will be fun.
I've decided I'm not gonna go the self taught route COMPLETELY because I just enjoy classes at the school and theres no doubt it will push me more.. my parents are also happy with that they dont want just self teaching ONLY.. I am motivated, but not supremely to where I can not play any games but with school and money on the line and pushed by classmates I think that next step will be easier. So now just left to decide between full time or part time basically.. No one can answer for me I know but the info thus far has helped me get this far.
GO TO UNI!!!!!!! Why pay that much for a short course when you could go to uni for 3 years have the time of your life? If you embrace it you will make new friends gather new influences and still get a decent education. Do a traditional art course for the ladies and learn 3d in your spare time!
That way you win on both accounts. It will probably cost the same but you will take more from it. Socially, artistically and mentally.
if you want to go into film then get some (state-approved) degree that makes obtaining work permints possible/easier. i know a few film people and they're always country-hopping, depending where the productions are headed. you might work in canada one year and go to new zealand, australia or europe for your next project.
you cannot realistically do that without a degree or a ton of verifyable work experience IMO. some countries will not even let you in without a degree or the process poses so much hassle that companies won't bother.
You say this as if Uni is a less expensive option. Maybe over in the UK it is, but over here in the US, as costs currently are, you could very easily be paying $100k+ for a degree, unless you're talking about community college.
My take on all of this is to do your own thing; it's cheaper and the type of self-discipline you are going to need (and have to painfully acquire) is such a major life skill. Sure you may end up with no friends, trust me I know, everyone goes off to uni and you'll be home working your ass off while people all think you're a slacker who's throwing his life away. Become consumed in what you do and it gets you through.
Edit: As far as working abroad somewhere like NZ or AUS, the degree makes it easier but you can get a visa if you have 3 years applicable work experience. There is almost always an option based on years of applicable work experience, and figure a degree will take at least 3 years anyway.
Aye my facts are not 100% on the cost of uni in america. Still the extra cost is worth it in my opinion. You get much more than just an education.
I agree with this except the same result part. Never underestimate the value of being surrounded by tutors and class mates doing the same thing you are and submerging yourself in an education environment.
I strongly beleive this is the most important aspect of formal education, however 80k is too high a price for it.
If I were to take the much cheaper and much more concise version of the curriculum, I would like to know from you guys what classes based on what you've seen and what you know I like (3d modeling 95%, concept design/drawing 5%) I should take? I probably want to go to into films, shooting for stuff like ILM... If not, then games shooting for stuff like Naughty dog. Obviously would be happy to just work anywhere in my field of interest in the industry, but thats just to give you an idea of the kind of stuff I want to do in 3 years or so (wow long time.) Stuff like compositing is really confusing i dont know if I need to know the basics of that kinda stuff because I might NOT land at a giant studio that has one guy for every part that can just pull his own weight..
I know maybe you guys don't know what something like "visual structure" or whatever might mean for the school in particular so I mean this doesn't have to be 1:1 accurate, I'm just looking to make sure i don't miss the BIG stuff that is DEFINITELY going to be a part of my workflow. Any help would be huge for me.
Use online resources and learn off your own back, if you are serious enough about this, it will work for you.
Save our money you would have spent on college courses for hard times.
Dont get 40k in debt before you have even started out in life.
The thing is its probably cooler and better to be instructed by jack bosson who like makes perfect lines than just some random life drawing place right? I dunno tho.. my parents definitely don't want me to just sit at home and only learn from the internet, if just for the sake of getting more social and experiencing a bit of life at least for a few hours a day.
The debt thing does suck... But since I'll be living with my parents for a few more years for sure I'll be able to pay it off /save some for future and literally not lose out on anything at all.
I was where you were at a few years ago. In the end I made the decision to take a Simulation and Game Development course at a Community College. Although it did help keep me motivated through the early years, I wish I would of taken something else.
J/w, is this kind of advice being given just because its sound advice that really applies to anyone that isn't a pro or am I super bad way worse than I thought minimal potential right now and need to adjust some expectations perhaps? Like, a family and a first job to support them? I can't imagine that kind of stuff... Is it just sound advice of the industry that should always be considered and weary of or..? A bit of both?
^^This^^
...And that's true with most creative fields.
There are more stories than can be counted ranging in industry from comic books to 3d to fine art....accomplished by people who never stepped into a classroom.
They got there because their focus and determination were strong enough to keep moving forward. They become sponges and soak up everything that there is to learn on a particular discipline.
The only thing that school really does is give you a basis for foundation and critiques by people who know HOW to give them.
When you post stuff on forums, you may have to settle for many views, but no responses...or you may have to navigate through conflicting advice or critique.
In the end, just like in school, it's up to you what you feel you can use and ultimately makes sense.
Good luck, but yea save your cash.
IMO its not an 'easy' way at all. Quite the opposite, it requires you to do battle with the toughest opponent you will ever face in your life.... you.
School gives you a set time to be there, its much easier to get into routine when its more or less forced upon you via a monetary commitment and your urge to not squander it.
When you remove this from the equation, you have no commitment and noone to propell you forward except yourself.
And tbh anyone who says thats easy, clearly has never done anything like that before in their lives.
It is very VERY easy to just sit back and relax instead, to flounder around not knowing really what you want, to try 100 things instead of focusing on a few, to work at 50% instead of 100% when nothing or noone is really forcing you to do otherwise.
However, in light of that gloomy bit I just wrote, it is actually extremely rewarding when you suceed with nothing but self motivation to get you where you want to go.
I just wanted to point that out man, dont think its easy, because whilst it may start out seeming easy, 6 to 12 months in, is when the fruits of your dedication will be very clear to you and anyone else you decide to share it with.
Assume it will be the toughest thing youve ever done, but most rewarding if you give your all - and you will suceed.
I don't think I really said easy though, not sure, just easier, but I dunno mentally it might be tougher.. Really actually it probably is tougher mentally to force yourself to do work outside of deadlines and school where you feel forced to do it as you said. but its easier physically at least for me personally. I dunno. I'm still going to stay in school for a few classes a semester though so it'll be more half and half, so I'm not quite deciding between self taught all the way or full time.. Just more half self taught/half school or full school. I really like the networking that the school offers, its kind of amazing.
I've gotten plenty of advice and information though so I think this thread has run its course, just wanted to post instead of letting it die to thank you and all who offered advice and info for taking the time.... It's really just coming down to I know either way its gonna be hard work but I just need to choose between physicalness or stay more at home and feel that stress mentally to actually do stuff all day instead of just playing a little video games then a little internet browsing.