That isn't proven. The article is full of ifs and buts and the pubmed abstract suggests "possible involvement".
Sure, there might be slight variations in how certain chemicals affect certain people, but you are going to tell me that 3/4 americans are overweight because of dirty chemicals or the fact that they stuff their faces full of 3x more food than they need to. I know which i'd place my bets on.
Besides, going from personal experience and following others i'm perfectly happy losing weight while enjoying half a pint of ben and jerrys and other "junk" food every day along with heaps of red meat
yea....just look at the large size sodas at most fast food joints in the states....mind blowing.
that!
Here in China there's far fewer overweight people than in the US. But people here eat a lot! And almost every dish has meat in it, although you won't find big chunks of meat. - except for the pork-skin+fat dish (yuck). Most people drink unsweetened tea. Sugary soda is rather an exception.
They do eat less meat (but the parts they eat often has skin and fat) but the people here also drink a lot less soda and beer - that's probably keeping them slim.
Please notice the red "canine" tooth, used for ripping/tearing meat. Vegan sponsored research study vs 4.3 million years of evolution, let me think real hard about that one.
Please notice the red "canine" tooth, used for ripping/tearing meat. Vegan sponsored research study vs 4.3 million years of evolution, let me think real hard about that one.
Many people I know these days hardly have canines at all. In fact growing up I noticed a lot of people in school, I thought they were "missing" them.
Besides, just because our distant ancestors needed to be able to eat what was available doesn't mean we wouldn't live longer if we chose a more specific diet when possible.
I'd be less worried about red meat and more worried about the highly inflammatory, high carb, high glycemic index, grain and grass dense diet that has become the norm. The diet advice I go by is to base what I eat on the type of diet we would have evolved with, a Paleo diet with fish, leafy greens, a good balance of monounsaturated fat from healthy oils, and no grasses/grains or refined sugar.
The body is incredibly complex and everything is incredibly relative; there are too many uncontrolled factors to conclude that red meat is so distinctly bad for you, especially without a reason or credible theory as to why.
Yeah, those teeth don't prove anything.
Gorillas have HUGE canines, and the only meat they eat are bugs. They use 'em to crack open nuts and fruits, and stuff. If we are meant to eat meat, it isn't because of our canines.
Oh no study a study said carrots will give me orange skin! But I eat 8 carrots a day! I debunk this study and you should too because of fact A, B and C!
Or you know, I could just eat my carrots, not caring weather I get orange skin or not. If and when I get orange skin I can then say, well you can't say they didn't warn me!
Those who don't eat the carrots will have non orange skin. BUT I WILL HAVE BETTER EYE SIGHT MUAHHAHAHA
Form my own experiences from trying to help unhealthy people in my family loose weight and live healthier lives through diet and lifestyle change, you begin to understand food is the last bastion of control that people have in their daily lives. As soon as you start telling people what to eat and what not to eat, they instantly build up a defence. As I don't blame them! When many of our choices are taken from us, our last pleasure in choice is what we eat.
I am a vegetarian trying not to eat dairy and eggs (though sometimes I like to have the odd egg on toast or cheese on my pizza) I've learned long ago that trying to convince others, no matter how many facts I present, won't change their minds. But sometimes giving the facts and letting them work it out for themselves over time can help them on their way to empowering them with the choice to change.
It's a bit funny some of the reactions here. If a study came out that showed that eating chocolate was bad for you most people wouldn't bat an eye. But the suggestion that meat is bad is enough to make people immediately start suggesting that it's a conspiracy.
Not a conspiracy, just misguided. If anything, they have proven that growth hormones and antibiotics are bad for you as a result of their research. And until they use grass-fed organic free-range beef, I won't believe otherwise.
Not a conspiracy, just misguided. If anything, they have proven that growth hormones and antibiotics are bad for you as a result of their research. And until they use grass-fed organic free-range beef, I won't believe otherwise.
One of the alternative foods that lowered risk is poultry. That's not a food free of hormones or antibiotics. Why isn't it high risk? Why do you instantly think its hormones?
Consumption of red meat in large amounts isn't particularly a western occurrence.
The French and the Italians eat plenty of red meat. Lamb is a dominant protein source in the middle east and Asia. It's not that we eat a lot of meat, it's just that we are not taught to appreciate proper food preparation/consumptions traiditons over fast food and tv dinners. Food preparation is very important in many cultures but in the West we generally think of it as a nuisance and thus feed our bodies garbage.
The French cuisine is some of the richest (read. fattest) in the culinary world yet they don't appear to have the same epidemic of diabetes and obesity at first glance. They love to eat and eat well.
The South Americans love their barbecues, yet don't exhibit the same appearance as their portly neighbours in the north.
It's a lifestyle problem and consumption of a lot of processed red meat is just a part of it. Drawing a direct correlation is like splitting hairs over what is causing people to be unhealthy.
That said, red meat does stay in your body for 72 hours and it's harder to process. It is rich in other vitamins and nutrients though but you can easily replace it with supplements. Think of it this way, boxers and fighters have to maintain peak shape during training camp. This means maximizing the amount of muscle weight and minimizing the amount of fat for fight day in without sacrificing speed, stamina, endurance and sound mind. They avoid eating red meat. But their fantastic physical condition isn't attributed to the lack of read meat in their diet, not even close. I am talking about fighters who maintain their weight close to fight weight year round. I am sure they eat read meat in their off time, just avoid it in training camp.
For fuck's sakes, live a little and have your delicious steak, just make damned sure you don't skip on any gym visits that week. Oh and substitute your frites for a salad... Or at least work extra hard that week.
Sounds like laying some ideas to grow for the future generation when food is scarce and population too high to provide meat to everyone... Same thing with water, a few decades ago drinking a lot of water was a very good habit, nowaday scientists say that's bad, could be true, also could be that someone is pushing to make people drink less... as a precaution for the future.
Don't know, no proof, just a thought.
Oh, I would like to add that eating meat nowadays is also eating antibiotics in large amount, and Imho this is much of a reason to die quicker, not because meat is bad, but virus do kill, in time.
I'm that guy who has the same symptoms as those nuts who claim to have seen lots of doctors with skin afflictions and other weird goings on - that could never be diagnosed or cured. Ive had creams, and scans and pills and all kinds of shit, with multiple doctors, male and female.
All trying to cover up the problem with pills and rubs. I thought tackling the problem with food was absurd - but after thinking about it for a long time, it's not absurd at all - it makes perfect sense.
I decided to go radical and see if it would clear up if I changed my diet, you know just to debunk this stupid theory that diet can change your life etc etc - as far as food goes, ive been vegetarian for a long time, and after 8 or so years of being afflicted with bullshit - after only a couple months most of my issues cleared up without any creams or pills.
I juice every day, consuming probably more raw / organic veggies in a week than the average person would eat in a month or more. Drink shitloads of water, Flaxseed Oil for Omega 3,6 & 9, Vitamin C, Pea Protein shakes and take B12. Never been healthier
All the stuff I consume is as local and as organic as I can get it, if I dont grow it myself. That includes everything from shampoo to toothpaste, practically everything that comes in contact with me, including laundry detergant.
I dont really care about facts or what works for whom, study or not, I know cutting meat and dairy out of my life eliminated A LOT of issues - I think its worth a shot if youve got problems and fall into the same category as I have above.
I'm not going to crusade and wave my vege flag in front of anyone though. I loved meat and food of all kinds before, but it just wasnt worth the grief. I envy people who can eat everything and not have any problems - Because if I could.... I probably would.
I can't disagree on that. Thing is in Christian cult, friday is fish day. Know why ?
Because rich were eating too much and they needed to eat less. So they came to agree on eating fish (poor's food) on friday.
We could all be eating vegs on friday now
Anyway to quote Paracelcus: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison."
i generally eat vege food during the week and a really nice roast at the weekends. Its so much cheaper than eating shitty processed 'ready meals' meat all the time and at the end of the week you can use your saved money to buy some actual quality meat and actually enjoy it. I think its fine to eat meat as long as you don't take the piss and realise something has actually died for your meal, the argument of 'its natural' dosn't hold up in my eyes anymore because if you've ever looked into the factorised raising of live stock you'd see its so unnatural its boardering on cruel. If we all cut back just a little bit, meat would actually taste nicer, we'd be healthier, more grainstock could be used to actually feed the worlds poor and as a plus we'd have 'happier' animals. At the same time though i do get anoyed with the more extreme vegans, i've been heckled by a group protesting a butchers shop outside my work for eating a ham sandwhich as I passed by, by a group who were dressed head to toe in leather with loads of makeup and hair gel on (ie emo kids who live in cities and have no interaction with animals beyond their pets)
Some vegans can be very hard to deal with, and I guess while they have their intentions, they're just making more enemies than friends ensuring an even slower progress.
Some are even really hardcore and looks down at vegetarians who eat substitutes that looks like meat.
Humans will eventually move towards vegetarianism completely with synthetic meat or substitutes, but it's not going to happen this generation.
Looking at the current process for creating ready meals using animal protein and such, I'm not sure the substitues and synthethic idea is safer and preferable to real meat.
Ofc nto talking about animal suffering but for health I'm very skeptic.
Anyway I'm talking but that doesn't change the fact that the change is already there, when you go buy let's say ground beef, you're already eating moderate amount of bamboo shoot. Without people even knowing it, industrial are turning the general population into vegetarians.
Not sure I'm alright with that but it's there nonetheless.
one thing i thought was interesting on the animal cruelty/protesting side of things is that my girlfriends brother is a game keeper, mainly looking after pheasants. I've been to his work and seen the pheasants and decided they have it pretty good (in contrast i once worked in a battery farm which started me cutting down in meat in the first place). They're free to roam around a big wood, get fed everyday and predators are kept at bay. They have pretty much all a pheasant could ask for, then once a month one or two get shot by some rich toffs and the game keeper then gets to eat the pheasant for his tea. In my eyes this is a pretty good deal for the pheasants. However i got aproached by a group of activist campaigning against all this who started telling me stories about how they're kept in boxes til its time for the hunt (if this were true they'd be so unhealthy and unable to fly that the hunt itself would be pretty shit). Growing up in cities if i'd not experianced these pheasant farms myself I'd of been outraged and been calling to ban them. As it was I was trying to discuss what my experiance was and i kept on getting shot down, mean while people were walkign up getting all upset over the cruelty to the animals then carrying on with they're lives of big macs and cosmetics, feeling good about themselves cause they'd signed a petition.
For me it was the opposite. I'm not saying I eat ridiculous amounts of red meat, I don't even eat much, to be honest. But back when I did stop, and consumed alternatives (other foods, protein supplements, etc), I felt drained. Didn't feel too great. I even consulted a friend of mine who has been a long-time vegetarian, and it wasn't because I wasn't eating well (or eating the wrong things for that matter). As soon as I got some small amount of red meat into my diet again, I couldn't believe the energy and sheer strength I had.
Like Justin says above, it's not really something I eat that much. But I do make sure I get at least some, because my workouts suffer when I stay away from it.
Something similar to that happened to me.I hadn't felt any obvious lack of energy as you say you did but I get most of my calories from chicken,eggs,lentils,rice,oats,peanut butter,fruits and vegetables and a little while ago had a nice steak. For the next couple of days I felt like what I imagine it must feel like to have taken steriods.Lots of energy and large strenghth increases,felt like I put on two pounds of muscle. From that I thought I might be deficient in zinc as zinc is involved in testosterone production.So I started to supplement with 50mg of zinc a day two weeks ago and as zinc can affect copper absorption also added 25grams of calves liver to my diet for extra copper. Though I didn't notice any imediate difference today I decided to push my workout a bit and was able to add 15 pounds to my bench as well as adding two extra lifts to my routine and still finished just over my previous time so it may be helping.
One thing I find humorous - the US government always lies except when they put out obesity numbers. It's totally honest, there's no big industry that profits from selling faux diet products to the US population that dumps flatbeds full of money onto politicians.
"Here is what folks need to understand, in crystal clarity: This study SUCKS. It was a waste of time and money, the study design is atrocious and it elucidates NOTHING that has not been (poorly) investigated previously!"
Replies
That isn't proven. The article is full of ifs and buts and the pubmed abstract suggests "possible involvement".
Sure, there might be slight variations in how certain chemicals affect certain people, but you are going to tell me that 3/4 americans are overweight because of dirty chemicals or the fact that they stuff their faces full of 3x more food than they need to. I know which i'd place my bets on.
Besides, going from personal experience and following others i'm perfectly happy losing weight while enjoying half a pint of ben and jerrys and other "junk" food every day along with heaps of red meat
that!
Here in China there's far fewer overweight people than in the US. But people here eat a lot! And almost every dish has meat in it, although you won't find big chunks of meat. - except for the pork-skin+fat dish (yuck). Most people drink unsweetened tea. Sugary soda is rather an exception.
They do eat less meat (but the parts they eat often has skin and fat) but the people here also drink a lot less soda and beer - that's probably keeping them slim.
http://tothecenter.com/2012/03/study-red-meat-linked-to-premature-death/
I'm not sure how they could conclude that, but I'll still abide by the "everything in moderation" rule.
Please notice the red "canine" tooth, used for ripping/tearing meat. Vegan sponsored research study vs 4.3 million years of evolution, let me think real hard about that one.
Many people I know these days hardly have canines at all. In fact growing up I noticed a lot of people in school, I thought they were "missing" them.
Besides, just because our distant ancestors needed to be able to eat what was available doesn't mean we wouldn't live longer if we chose a more specific diet when possible.
The body is incredibly complex and everything is incredibly relative; there are too many uncontrolled factors to conclude that red meat is so distinctly bad for you, especially without a reason or credible theory as to why.
Gorillas have HUGE canines, and the only meat they eat are bugs. They use 'em to crack open nuts and fruits, and stuff. If we are meant to eat meat, it isn't because of our canines.
Or you know, I could just eat my carrots, not caring weather I get orange skin or not. If and when I get orange skin I can then say, well you can't say they didn't warn me!
Those who don't eat the carrots will have non orange skin. BUT I WILL HAVE BETTER EYE SIGHT MUAHHAHAHA
Form my own experiences from trying to help unhealthy people in my family loose weight and live healthier lives through diet and lifestyle change, you begin to understand food is the last bastion of control that people have in their daily lives. As soon as you start telling people what to eat and what not to eat, they instantly build up a defence. As I don't blame them! When many of our choices are taken from us, our last pleasure in choice is what we eat.
I am a vegetarian trying not to eat dairy and eggs (though sometimes I like to have the odd egg on toast or cheese on my pizza) I've learned long ago that trying to convince others, no matter how many facts I present, won't change their minds. But sometimes giving the facts and letting them work it out for themselves over time can help them on their way to empowering them with the choice to change.
One of the alternative foods that lowered risk is poultry. That's not a food free of hormones or antibiotics. Why isn't it high risk? Why do you instantly think its hormones?
Who're you going to believe, some so called scientist or Sam Neill and his orangutan friend?
The French and the Italians eat plenty of red meat. Lamb is a dominant protein source in the middle east and Asia. It's not that we eat a lot of meat, it's just that we are not taught to appreciate proper food preparation/consumptions traiditons over fast food and tv dinners. Food preparation is very important in many cultures but in the West we generally think of it as a nuisance and thus feed our bodies garbage.
The French cuisine is some of the richest (read. fattest) in the culinary world yet they don't appear to have the same epidemic of diabetes and obesity at first glance. They love to eat and eat well.
The South Americans love their barbecues, yet don't exhibit the same appearance as their portly neighbours in the north.
It's a lifestyle problem and consumption of a lot of processed red meat is just a part of it. Drawing a direct correlation is like splitting hairs over what is causing people to be unhealthy.
That said, red meat does stay in your body for 72 hours and it's harder to process. It is rich in other vitamins and nutrients though but you can easily replace it with supplements. Think of it this way, boxers and fighters have to maintain peak shape during training camp. This means maximizing the amount of muscle weight and minimizing the amount of fat for fight day in without sacrificing speed, stamina, endurance and sound mind. They avoid eating red meat. But their fantastic physical condition isn't attributed to the lack of read meat in their diet, not even close. I am talking about fighters who maintain their weight close to fight weight year round. I am sure they eat read meat in their off time, just avoid it in training camp.
For fuck's sakes, live a little and have your delicious steak, just make damned sure you don't skip on any gym visits that week. Oh and substitute your frites for a salad... Or at least work extra hard that week.
Don't know, no proof, just a thought.
Oh, I would like to add that eating meat nowadays is also eating antibiotics in large amount, and Imho this is much of a reason to die quicker, not because meat is bad, but virus do kill, in time.
All trying to cover up the problem with pills and rubs. I thought tackling the problem with food was absurd - but after thinking about it for a long time, it's not absurd at all - it makes perfect sense.
I decided to go radical and see if it would clear up if I changed my diet, you know just to debunk this stupid theory that diet can change your life etc etc - as far as food goes, ive been vegetarian for a long time, and after 8 or so years of being afflicted with bullshit - after only a couple months most of my issues cleared up without any creams or pills.
I juice every day, consuming probably more raw / organic veggies in a week than the average person would eat in a month or more. Drink shitloads of water, Flaxseed Oil for Omega 3,6 & 9, Vitamin C, Pea Protein shakes and take B12. Never been healthier
All the stuff I consume is as local and as organic as I can get it, if I dont grow it myself. That includes everything from shampoo to toothpaste, practically everything that comes in contact with me, including laundry detergant.
I dont really care about facts or what works for whom, study or not, I know cutting meat and dairy out of my life eliminated A LOT of issues - I think its worth a shot if youve got problems and fall into the same category as I have above.
I'm not going to crusade and wave my vege flag in front of anyone though. I loved meat and food of all kinds before, but it just wasnt worth the grief. I envy people who can eat everything and not have any problems - Because if I could.... I probably would.
Because rich were eating too much and they needed to eat less. So they came to agree on eating fish (poor's food) on friday.
We could all be eating vegs on friday now
Anyway to quote Paracelcus: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison."
Guy's right.
Some are even really hardcore and looks down at vegetarians who eat substitutes that looks like meat.
Humans will eventually move towards vegetarianism completely with synthetic meat or substitutes, but it's not going to happen this generation.
Ofc nto talking about animal suffering but for health I'm very skeptic.
Anyway I'm talking but that doesn't change the fact that the change is already there, when you go buy let's say ground beef, you're already eating moderate amount of bamboo shoot. Without people even knowing it, industrial are turning the general population into vegetarians.
Not sure I'm alright with that but it's there nonetheless.
http://www.robbwolf.com/2012/03/14/red-meat-part-healthy-diet/
Something similar to that happened to me.I hadn't felt any obvious lack of energy as you say you did but I get most of my calories from chicken,eggs,lentils,rice,oats,peanut butter,fruits and vegetables and a little while ago had a nice steak. For the next couple of days I felt like what I imagine it must feel like to have taken steriods.Lots of energy and large strenghth increases,felt like I put on two pounds of muscle. From that I thought I might be deficient in zinc as zinc is involved in testosterone production.So I started to supplement with 50mg of zinc a day two weeks ago and as zinc can affect copper absorption also added 25grams of calves liver to my diet for extra copper. Though I didn't notice any imediate difference today I decided to push my workout a bit and was able to add 15 pounds to my bench as well as adding two extra lifts to my routine and still finished just over my previous time so it may be helping.
"Here is what folks need to understand, in crystal clarity: This study SUCKS. It was a waste of time and money, the study design is atrocious and it elucidates NOTHING that has not been (poorly) investigated previously!"