I can stop thinking about that one line though, where the android says "I am entirely at your disposal as a sexual partner"
"disposal"
Would you...like....physically destroy it with your penis?
heh.
lol being "at someone's disposal" literally means ready to assist someone in any way they wish.
The word "disposal" doesn't equate to the stand alone meaning when used in that sentence, yo.
Goddamn my English teacher was so hot. I listened to every word she said... *sigh*
Was a really engaging demo, but watching it I couldn't help but wonder why a company that seems to pride itself in pushing boundaries feels it has to cleave so close to the same old themes (male gaze). There is no question whatsoever this entire demo was made for straight men. Nothing wrong with that, but when the entirety of the game industry is 100% lockstep, it really does leave room for something actually "revolutionary" in terms of story telling.
Reminded me of this video series I've been watching, which is about movies and Legos, but applies 100% to the game industry.
However as a female I thoroughly enjoyed Kara; I watched it 3 times in a row. Maybe what was seen as a cute nude girl, to me that makes sense for a household robot to be made that way. The pivoting moment when she realized she was about to lose it all, the camera came close to her beating heart, which should it stop beating, I suppose that'd be when she would no longer function.
I'm curious what would have made this video less for a male audience besides the obvious mild nudity. Maybe if she didn't cry her way out of it and broke the machines that confined her? That way she found her own way out rather than at the permission of the offscreen male.
1. Have the controller be female also.
2. Have her escape on her own rather than needing the male controller save her.
3. Lose the "I'm your fuck doll" line.
4. Make her more androgynous.
5. shit, make it instead a male.
6. Leave her still upset at the controller for almost terminating her, rather than grateful, which is done to make her seem "nice". If she'd kept legitimately mad she was created to be owned and was then almost destroyed because she displayed emotions, that would show her to be more self confident, but those are traits game designers normally only imbue male characters with. Instead she displays gratitude, and the viewer is pretty clearly supposed to identify as the controller.
I said I liked it. It was well done. The setting itself could have small things changed to make it have less male gaze, but since almost everyone involved was almost assuredly straight white men, the entire setting was conceived from the beginning with this setup in mind. The best way to make it more for a general audience is to have a general production team. Women are half the world's population but make up an insignificant amount of decision makers in games. Same with people of color, GLBT, etc. Having a more diverse team will just naturally result in more diverse themes and settings.
Was a really engaging demo, but watching it I couldn't help but wonder why a company that seems to pride itself in pushing boundaries feels it has to cleave so close to the same old themes (male gaze). There is no question whatsoever this entire demo was made for straight men. Nothing wrong with that, but when the entirety of the game industry is 100% lockstep, it really does leave room for something actually "revolutionary" in terms of story telling.
Reminded me of this video series I've been watching, which is about movies and Legos, but applies 100% to the game industry.
while i agree with you, i've got to say that i wouldn't have the first clue how to appeal to gay men, or gay women, and i'd even hesitate at trying to appeal to straight women.
while i agree with you, i've got to say that i wouldn't have the first clue how to appeal to gay men, or gay women, and i'd even hesitate at trying to appeal to straight women.
Sure, and I'd have a hard time making a sexually appealing female for straight men, but that's why you want a diverse group in your team so you can draw on everyone's strengths and preferences. This is why more women, more people of color, and more GLBT in games is a good thing, and long overdue. Much better to have them helping to make more diverse themes, than the existing group just trying to guess what those people would want to see.
It's not like there aren't *any* people in these groups with qualified resumes/portfolios. Sure there might be fewer, but if you're a company wanting to push narrative boundaries, I'm sure you could try to find some of them for your team.
It's interesting they went for the easiest haircut they could find, and left it out for most of the video. For all the blockiness the graphics of 15 years ago had, they at least could make curly hair.
Also, a question. Isn't it possible to make a special texture to darken teeth that depends on the animation, like a wrinkle map but with a diffuse texture? It's becoming more obvious through the years that teeth just can't be shaded properly by traditional methods, and they stand out badly in this video.
Hello everybody!
I work with "Bal" in Quantic Dream.
I worked a lot on KARA for this video and I'm very happy that it's finally shown and enjoyed to a lot of people, we did this more than 1,5 year ago and we thought that it would never be shown.
So just for information the haircut is the one of the actress "Valory Curry" who played the andro
One thing I was a little concerned about was how close this film could have been to a tentacle hentai. Cute girl, restrained, lots of probe-y looking things. The fact that she sang in Japanese didn't help either. I'm just glad she wasn't all breathy <strike> and promised to behave </strike>.
Still, I loved it a lot. Everyone at my work had great things to say about it too
really if this was a full game with a really immersive story, i would say the tech is good enough, and there is nothing there that is big enough to pull me out of that immersion.
She asked specifically how to make that scenario less "male gaze". I listed multiple ways, and you quoted only one. Making the android into a male would either change the relationship to one of camaraderie/brotherhood or open up the situation to straight-female/gay-male attraction to the main subject, or both.
Poop: I cannot agree more. This is *precisely* what I was thinking. While I thought the storytelling was engaging and I really identified with the character (in spite of the sex doll line of dialogue), the blatant undertones of a male-centered creator AND audience squicked me out. This character seems to be set up as a vessel to criticize the social status of hypothetical AI women (and presumably through them to some degree, actual human women) but at the same time reinforces the social tropes that cause things to be how they are. Man as creator, man as controller, man as benevolent savior.
Just today I the thought the same thing -- of how I would've liked it about a billion times more if the genders had been *anything* different than disembodied male voice and female android. Two men, two women, male android, female voice... it would've been so much fresher with just a slightly different narrative choice.
If it hadn't been so very predictable with it, it could have been something more special than it was. That said, I think it's easy to pick apart its flaws because they're few enough to make it obvious. I really enjoyed the video.
She asked specifically how to make that scenario less "male gaze". I listed multiple ways, and you quoted only one. Making the android into a male would either change the relationship to one of camaraderie/brotherhood or open up the situation to straight-female/gay-male attraction to the main subject, or both.
I just addressed one as a joke. The others could be addressed simply by realistically looking at the scenario that you're a corporation whose main product straddles the line between household appliance and slave, where procedure is to disassemble (kill) sentient/sapient units for testing, and you're telling me that this corporation would not build an android based on market research similar to our own? Of course some things represented in this video are sexist, like the robot's self spoken marketing including sex (why does she have to do it with a man?), but thats because of how a "product" like this would be developed and marketed in reality. You're attributing sexism to this development team, when likely what they were doing was addressing realistic views of how a gynoid would be designed, marketed, and sold in reality today.
Illusions: You may be correct that a product like that would make the most actual sense in a female body, if it were an actual thing made for a real market, but I don't think it's too much of a leap of disbelief to think the android could have been male and the story would've been equally strong.
But even if we grant your premise and say the android must be female -- to make the disembodied voice were female instead of male, it would've changed the dynamic of the two characters drastically. The voice would not have seemed so lecherous and creepy -- I think this would've strengthened the story, especially considering the android's blandly nice reaction to her rescue.
I just addressed one as a joke. The others could be addressed simply by realistically looking at the scenario that you're a corporation whose main product straddles the line between household appliance and slave, where procedure is to disassemble (kill) sentient/sapient units for testing, and you're telling me that this corporation would not build an android based on market research similar to our own? Of course some things represented in this video are sexist, like the robot's self spoken marketing including sex (why does she have to do it with a man?), but thats because of how a "product" like this would be developed and marketed in reality. You're attributing sexism to this development team, when likely what they were doing was addressing realistic views of how a gynoid would be designed, marketed, and sold in reality today.
It's pretty clear they are pandering to the status quo, that was my criticism. If they want to push boundaries, do something different while still making it appealing. Anyone can use sex to sell, but that's for beer commercials.
Plus you get into the chicken and egg situation. We are how we are socially *because* of the collective decisions of hundreds of straight male dominated advertising, film, comic, commercial, and videogame boards keep pushing us down this road. This is not some kind of physics based "must be" that cannot be changed. It's all influenced by everything else, and the number one area to push into a new area would be a company trying to bill themselves as breaking new barriers.
There isn't anything wrong per se about the clip, and this is probably the tenth time I said I liked it. My criticism is that it could have actually been fresh, rather than just a slight technical twist on the same old same old.
Illusions: You may be correct that a product like that would make the most actual sense in a female body, if it were an actual thing made for a real market, but I don't think it's too much of a leap of disbelief to think the android could have been male and the story would've been equally strong.
Then we would be debating as to why it wasn't female, or why a female could not have successfully talked her way out of the facility. This is what my original joke was alluding to. Unless we were expecting them to make two separate movies showing the exact same scenario.
But even if we grant your premise and say the android must be female --
She didn't have to be, see above.
to make the disembodied voice were female instead of male, it would've changed the dynamic of the two characters drastically. The voice would not have seemed so lecherous and creepy -- I think this would've strengthened the story, especially considering the android's blandly nice reaction to her rescue.
Women can't be lecherous and creepy towards other women? Or if the android was male, men?
I think then we'd probably also be debating about how it was stereotypical that the female operator felt empathy/sympathy/sorrow towards the android and decided to let her go free.
Also I don't think the android really had a choice in this matter. Again, realistically, if it acted pissed off instead of grateful for rescue it wouldn't have been boxed and shipped out. It could've also been done solely for vocal contrast, in the same way you would sometimes put complimentary or contrasting colors together.
It's all influenced by everything else, and the number one area to push into a new area would be a company trying to bill themselves as breaking new barriers.
...
My criticism is that it could have actually been fresh, rather than just a slight technical twist on the same old same old.
So what would have been fresh or boundary pushing, that would not have required a prior setup or explanation, since androids of every sex (and no sex) achieving sentience/sapience that then rebel against their cruel human captors has been done before?
Women can't be lecherous and creepy towards other women? Or if the android was male, men?
I think then we'd probably also be debating about how it was stereotypical that the female operator felt empathy/sympathy/sorrow towards the android and decided to let her go free.
Also I don't think the android really had a choice in this matter. Again, realistically, if it acted pissed off instead of grateful for rescue it wouldn't have been boxed and shipped out. It could've also been done solely for vocal contrast, in the same way you would sometimes put complimentary or contrasting colors together.
Women can be lecherous. The point is they never get the chance to be, they are portrayed as meek fuckdolls 99% of the time. Just changing it to a creepy lecherous female operator would also have been incredibly fresh in terms of game themes. The point is not that Men are always creepy and women aren't, it's that we always *always* get it served to us this way.
We're also talking about slight tweaks to an entirely fictitious scenario. This is a not a real world with real characters/physics/rules that force certain end points, it was created from scratch and the creators had full control over every single aspect, so everything is clearly there for a reason, which is why it's so easy to analyze that it's chock full of male gaze.
If it was a female voice and you as a man decided to feel it was only because women are weak that she let her go, well that's on you, that doesn't make the situation just as sexist as it was executed. Women can feel sympathy for other people, male or female.
And again, there are several ways to resolve her anger at being almost terminated. I mentioned her escaping, and I'm sure a creative design team could come up with several more. The point is that they didn't, they specifically chose the way that would most appeal to straight men. This is fine, if it were balanced with other themes, but again, it's not balanced, this is all we ever get.
Illusions, dude, you dont have to try and prove the only people with alternative viewpoints and life experience wrong....
It's awesome how it is, and all, but why would you try to dissuade discussion of how it couldve been less sexist and cliche? Ben and tully are giving some interesting insight, let them have the floor!
If you CAN'T instantly understand their point about how staggeringly male dominated the story is you have a big opportunity to learn something -- that part is pretty much indisputable.
@poopinmymouth: IMHO, I think we've reached an impasse mainly because of bias and sexism. Just consider that while you're railing at the sexism that is apparently very evident in this video, you keep telling a straight male how this video is blatantly set up to appeal to straight men. If I didn't find her behavior or portrayal appealing for a female, does that make me open minded, not a straight male, or does this make you sexist/biased?
Edit: I'm also not trying to rag on you or insult you or anything, it just seemed like you were getting worked up over something that might not be there, or was there for a non-sinister purpose.
@poopinmymouth: IMHO, I think we've reached an impasse mainly because of bias and sexism. Just consider that while you're railing at the sexism that is apparently very evident in this video, you keep telling a straight male how this video is blatantly set up to appeal to straight men. If I didn't find her behavior or portrayal appealing for a female, does that make me open minded, not a straight male, or does this make you sexist/biased?
I don't believe his point is really grounded in whether it was designed to appeal to you at all. As far as i understand, he and tully were discussing the notion that the story is male dominated, and that all action in the story is carried out by male characters, and that the primary female character is portrayed as impotent -- all things which make it a male focused story.
There's certainly something to discuss about whether that makes it a MORE powerful story, though, and I'd kindof speculate that the writer actively chose to make it a woman in a dangerous situation becuase he thought it had more emotional impact than a woman in control. It's not like quantic dream has never had a tech demo with a dominant female character in it.
So what would have been fresh or boundary pushing, that would not have required a prior setup or explanation, since androids of every sex (and no sex) achieving sentience/sapience that then rebel against their cruel human captors has been done before?
I don't believe I have yet seen a male android rescued by a male human lover. Certainly not in a video game. And the whole point is that a good story doesn't need tons of setup. without any explanation we gathered from this clip that it's the future, much higher level of technology is present, that the controller is a technician of some sort, etc etc. If the decision makers of this demo had been from a broader spectrum of gender, sexual orientation (and arguably race), it just would have been different.
Even if every combo has been done before, the one that has been done the most by far, is the sexy impotent femmebot rescued by male savior.
Plus your argument boils down to that despite the fact she is white, the setup is that of straight female sexdoll with straight male controller/savior, basically *the* most stereotypical setup possible, that there is *no possible variation* that could have been just as good or even better. That alone is evidence of either glaring privilege or flatout racism and heteronormative thinking.
illusions, it doesn't have to be there for a sinister purpose to be worth comment. This kind of thing almost never is done with malice -- it's done out of thoughtlessness. Generally one must be careful if one is a part of a privileged group to listen to the perspectives of those not in their group about these sorts of things.
For example, as a white person, if I wanted to design some characters who are african-american, a very good thing to do would be to listen to what african-american people say on the subject of portrayals of african-americans in the media. Because I don't have the social background myself, if I want to include that audience in whatever I'm doing or I merely don't want to *accidently exclude* them through my own ignorance, I have to try to understand a bit of what my own perspective lacks.
In this case, if a straight male storyteller wants to tell a story to an audience that includes anybody who is NOT a straight male -- people like me and poop -- he should listen.
This video is not unusually sexist by any means ... it's merely a bog standard, particularly blatant example of male-gaze. Because it's SO obvious, it's worth noting here.
I found the whole thing ham-fisted in this respect because I couldn't tell whether the storyteller is intentionally criticizing the fact of this male gaze and commenting on how women might feel about it, or he just using the video as his platform to leer at that sexy woman? I feel like the storyteller doesn't know either.
Plus your argument boils down to that despite the fact she is white, the setup is that of straight female sexdoll with straight male controller/savior, basically *the* most stereotypical setup possible, that there is *no possible variation* that could have been just as good or even better. That alone is evidence of either glaring privilege or flatout racism and heteronormative thinking.
I'm not arguing what would have made it "better", I'm arguing that from the way you are describing it, you would've found sexism in anything that wasn't exquisitely tailored to suite your view of what is not sexist.
For example, as a white person, if I wanted to design some characters who are african-american, a very good thing to do would be to listen to what african-american people say on the subject of portrayals of african-americans in the media. Because I don't have the social background myself, if I want to include that audience in whatever I'm doing or I merely don't want to *accidently exclude* them through my own ignorance, I have to try to understand a bit of what my own perspective lacks.
How would you accidentally exclude them in a racist or biased way if you depicted them as if you were depicting yourself, excluding cultural differences?
I'm also wondering if this discussion could be pulled out of this thread and into its own thread for depictions of stereotypes in media...
I would say generally being very careful to avoid negative cultural stereotypes is a good starting point, but there are pitfalls one may not be aware of if one doesn't have a direct experience of it.
Being part of the powerful privileged group, the particular ways in which black people are portrayed differently to white people, or women are portrayed differently to men (or whatever groups you want to use) are very difficult to actually see. It just seems like the default, proper way to do things, because we haven't seen anything else. The best way to become aware of this stuff is to go ask somebody of whatever the minority group is in question. It's often extremely obvious to them.
A particular example from a few years ago springs to mind -- there were some editorials in Vogue where they dressed a white model in blackface. People got mad, and I think fairly rightfully so, considering how awful and paternalistic minstrel shows were. It's insulting .. if you cared at all about how black people felt about your product, and as your audience, you wouldn't go there. But plainly they didn't care, or they just had no idea.
Or in a story like The Help -- it's a story about black women written by a white woman, and it's essentially a feel good story for white people. The black women who played the main roles did an amazing job of it, but I've read that they've had to deal with a lot of backlash in the black community for playing domestic servants at all. That they would find such a thing objectionable makes perfect sense, but I personally might not have anticipated it because of my lack of experience. If we care, it's good to ask.
I just mean that sort of thing. A straight man may not be thinking at all about how his product is perceived by straight women or GBLT people, but if he wants them to be a part of his audience, he should.
Plus your argument boils down to that despite the fact she is white, the setup is that of straight female sexdoll with straight male controller/savior, basically *the* most stereotypical setup possible, that there is *no possible variation* that could have been just as good or even better. That alone is evidence of either glaring privilege or flatout racism and heteronormative thinking.
I see your points about variation or making something a bit mor interesting,
but speaking statistically this scenario is the most likely.
When we see realistic androids rolling out of the factories they will largely come with sexual functions, and even though we will eventually become fully open towards different sexual orientations the hetero/homosexual ratio will not change.
In fact, this felt so typical that I did not see any attraction or love between this controller and the android as it would be like a fluffer falling in love the pornstars.
He seemed mainly freaked out as if one day on your slaughter farm, one of the pigs suddenly said "please don't kill me".
For men she is the perfect woman, as she was created to be, as the android sex bussiness will end up like in the future, and for women she is still this scared woman they might identify themselves with,
I would say generally being very careful to avoid negative cultural stereotypes is a good starting point, but there are pitfalls one may not be aware of if one doesn't have a direct experience of it.
Being part of the powerful privileged group, the particular ways in which black people are portrayed differently to white people, or women are portrayed differently to men (or whatever groups you want to use) are very difficult to actually see. It just seems like the default, proper way to do things, because we haven't seen anything else. The best way to become aware of this stuff is to go ask somebody of whatever the minority group is in question. It's often extremely obvious to them.
Again, if you depict them as you would depict yourself, how do you fall into this pitfall you mention?
I just mean that sort of thing. A straight man may not be thinking at all about how his product is perceived by straight women or GBLT people, but if he wants them to be a part of his audience, he should.
What I'm getting at is that as a straight white male, I did not see the android response to being disassembled as sexist, not because of stereotyping women as weak and submissive because I'm a straight white male (suggesting I must do this because I am a straight white male is in and of itself a form of negative stereotyping), but because if I were in the position of the android, hostility, aggression, rebellion and anger towards the operator would seem like a guaranteed way to get myself killed, since as far as I'm aware from my few minutes of existence, the operator can control whether I live or die at the push of a button. Poop and yourself seem to suggest that these actions would make the narrative better, and would be non-sexist.
I don't think any of us who are part of privileged groups, can know what the experience of a subjugated group is like. There are pitfalls we can't anticipate, and so we are liable to fall into them if we don't look ahead. If we seek to represent such people in ways that are respectful and truthful to them, we need to at least ask them what's up with them, or as poop suggests, have them as part of the creation process (preferable) so we can tell stories that are different from the tons and tons of stories told in the past.
Also, if I were to portray a black person like myself, that could be a form of white washing... because the experience IS different. I'm not black. It depends on the story, obviously, but to think it's the same isn't right either. I don't think I would be competent to do it because I don't trust my own privileged worldview to tell me what's truthful about other people. You shouldn't trust yours either.
What I'm getting at is that as a straight white male, I did not see the android response to being disassembled as sexist
Here may be the misunderstanding -- that part in itself isn't so much the sexist bit. The sexism is inherent in the entire construction of the scenario. Powerful, distant, lecherous, paternalistic, creator man -- powerless, passive, sexualized woman. She is an object to be sold and leered at. She lives and dies by his say-so -- the way she reacted at the end was her character's acquiescence that she's ok about what just happened. If it had all been the same, but her character, instead of smiling sweetly at the end, had had a look of conflicted terror on her face, it could've changed it. She's about to be sold into slavery, afterall.
Also, the video seems to acknowledge that this scenario is distasteful at the same time that it tacitly invites the viewer to leer at her naked body and see her as a sexual object. The messages are conflicted.
What I'm saying is that it would be more interesting if the android were male, mostly because in the media people usually are not invited to look at men as sexual objects. It would be a fresh and interesting perspective. Similarly, a scenario involving two women would be more interesting, because this in sort of sci-fi setting, relationships between women are extremely unusual to see. It would have different undertones, and it would have been something we don't see very often.
edit: I guess I don't find it all that problematic to put a straight white male into a scenario where he is being subjugated (in a story, not for reals), only because it is so opposite to the way the world normally works. The android being a woman in this story uses and reinforces a male societal power over women that actually does exist, and doesn't clearly label it a bad thing. The converse does not exist ... at least not in the west on a large scale, so it is less problematic to use as a storytelling device.
Wow your discution about the philosophy of the demo are too complicated for me haha
I guess in the world of KARA there's male version too of her (she's a AX 400 so the male could be AY 400), but we could say that none of them had their conscience woke up, it's my personal explanation XD
I had a question about the hair I meant to ask at the end of the talk, but there's always a bunch of people and only a few minutes. I noticed that she had short hair, and so did all the actors in heavy rain. Is there a limitation for using longer hair, maybe blocking capture markers? Any chance of capturing hair motion with later iterations?
Daelus: for the hair there's no limitation at all, when we do mocap the hair of the actors are hidden even if they are long, so it's just a decision inside that tell us what kind of hair we do, for sure long hair are more difficult to produce and move but in our next game there will be more various haircut
Again, if you depict them as you would depict yourself, how do you fall into this pitfall you mention?
What I'm getting at is that as a straight white male, I did not see the android response to being disassembled as sexist, not because of stereotyping women as weak and submissive because I'm a straight white male (suggesting I must do this because I am a straight white male is in and of itself a form of negative stereotyping), but because if I were in the position of the android, hostility, aggression, rebellion and anger towards the operator would seem like a guaranteed way to get myself killed, since as far as I'm aware from my few minutes of existence, the operator can control whether I live or die at the push of a button. Poop and yourself seem to suggest that these actions would make the narrative better, and would be non-sexist.
First, people are not 100% rational actors. Look at how people respond in all sorts of trauma experiences, and you'll very rarely see the stuff that in hindsight *might* gain a positive reaction. And you ignored now several times the fact I offered an alternate scenario (her escaping on her own) that would allow her not to have to fall into happy acceptance of her fate and gratitude to the male voice.
And giving her a different reaction would make it less sexist, but the whole scenario needs changing to make it non-sexist. That would just be one small step.
No one has suggested you "must do this because you are a straight white male". We are examining the scenario, and who it was tailored for. The vast majority of media representation is made by and for straight white men, and that is our entire critique; that while it was good storytelling, the setup itself was cliche.
And Tully made an excellent point. Women are not just men with vaginas, and people of color and GLBT *do* experience life differently as minorities, so just writing them as one would write a straight white male character, but with breasts, or brown skin, or with a lesbian tickbox checked, does not make them well made inoffensive characters. In fact, frequently it makes them inaccurate cartoon stereotypes.
again, i'm not saying i disagree, infact i agree quite strongly that we need more diversity in our games. however there is quite an important point that needs to be made:
unfortunately, GLBT community are a minority, so it's likely that the number of people within that community working in the games industry is going to be very very small. considder then that you have a minority of developers within that community, making games aimed for the minority of the general population at large, and with the ignorance of said population at large, any studio that attempts to do that is likely to find they go out of business very quickly.
it's sad, and it's currently a fact of life... i don't like it, you don't like it. but it's been proven that people trying to change this status quo too fast just crash and burn.
I think the fact that a robot just had a thought and emotions should be more thought provoking than the fact that she was a women... look past that and see what she did...
It's artistic expression, you had your emotions on a race track while they demo their tech. Amazing if you ask me.
i don't really see anything wrong with it, considering the sex and age group that spends the most on games.
the group is male age 20 to 37, and we all know that in your late teens and 20's were all pretty sex obsessed, so what is the problem with games marketing to that group, with there characters and scenario decisions in games.
I don't think any of us who are part of privileged groups, can know what the experience of a subjugated group is like.
Its not as difficult as you might think, you just have to be placed in a situation for an extended period of time where you are the minority instead of the privileged group.
There are pitfalls we can't anticipate, and so we are liable to fall into them if we don't look ahead. If we seek to represent such people in ways that are respectful and truthful to them, we need to at least ask them what's up with them, or as poop suggests, have them as part of the creation process (preferable) so we can tell stories that are different from the tons and tons of stories told in the past.
See below.
Also, if I were to portray a black person like myself, that could be a form of white washing... because the experience IS different. I'm not black. It depends on the story, obviously, but to think it's the same isn't right either. I don't think I would be competent to do it because I don't trust my own privileged worldview to tell me what's truthful about other people. You shouldn't trust yours either.
What you are describing are cultural differences, not racial or gender based differences. A black person living in the South of the United States is going to have a different life experience from a black person living in the UK, or a black person living in Africa. I think this is the main point I have to drive home. This links back to my first statement above.
Here may be the misunderstanding -- that part in itself isn't so much the sexist bit. The sexism is inherent in the entire construction of the scenario. Powerful, distant, lecherous, paternalistic, creator man -- powerless, passive, sexualized woman. She is an object to be sold and leered at. She lives and dies by his say-so -- the way she reacted at the end was her character's acquiescence that she's ok about what just happened. If it had all been the same, but her character, instead of smiling sweetly at the end, had had a look of conflicted terror on her face, it could've changed it. She's about to be sold into slavery, afterall.
You're defining the presentation of a scenario that occurs on a daily basis in our reality as sexist (minus the robot/SciFi parts, since human trafficking still exists). If I record a racist on video for a day as a documentary into this person's life, is the video racist for the views it depicts, or is the person who is in the video racist?
What I'm saying is that it would be more interesting if the android were male, mostly because in the media people usually are not invited to look at men as sexual objects. It would be a fresh and interesting perspective.
It would more likely be bringing sultry romance novel tropes into videogames.
Similarly, a scenario involving two women would be more interesting, because this in sort of sci-fi setting, relationships between women are extremely unusual to see. It would have different undertones, and it would have been something we don't see very often.
It would also probably be more interesting if we changed it so that it was a robot holding a human hostage.
edit: I guess I don't find it all that problematic to put a straight white male into a scenario where he is being subjugated (in a story, not for reals), only because it is so opposite to the way the world normally works.
...again, and then we'd either be having a discussion as to why its sexist that the video depicts two men and no women, or a man being subjugated by a woman, or a woman caving to empathy/sympathy and letting the man go, or the man displaying his natural violent tendencies to free himself, or a list of other tropes.
First, people are not 100% rational actors. Look at how people respond in all sorts of trauma experiences, and you'll very rarely see the stuff that in hindsight *might* gain a positive reaction.
We have real life reference for how people react, and we can draw on that.
And you ignored now several times the fact I offered an alternate scenario (her escaping on her own) that would allow her not to have to fall into happy acceptance of her fate and gratitude to the male voice.
1) The scenario presented is realistic because it happens in reality, and we have documented cases of this behavior
2) It is unrealistic to expect successful escape from anyone in the scenario presented (I'd have to rewatch the video but it doesn't seem like the android realized what exactly was going to happen until the diss-assembly process had already started).
And giving her a different reaction would make it less sexist, but the whole scenario needs changing to make it non-sexist. That would just be one small step.
This seems absurd from the points I've raised above with yourself and Tully; that we can never in the future portray things that happen in our own reality with a scifi twist simply because someone is going to claim the medium itself as sexist and not the content its portraying. I have no problem labeling the company that would create this android in the fictional world the video creates sexist, but you are extending this to the video itself.
And Tully made an excellent point. Women are not just men with vaginas, and people of color and GLBT *do* experience life differently as minorities, so just writing them as one would write a straight white male character, but with breasts, or brown skin, or with a lesbian tickbox checked, does not make them well made inoffensive characters. In fact, frequently it makes them inaccurate cartoon stereotypes.
Like I've mentioned with Tully, these differences arise mainly because of cultural differences, not because women are incapable of behaving or experiencing the world in the same manner as men, or the same for people of color in the same manner as white people, GLBT as straight people, etc.
A woman and a gay man posted their observations, and you're mansplaining away why our observations are incorrect. Don't really know what else to tell you at this point.
A woman and a gay man posted their observations, and you're mansplaining away why our observations are incorrect. Don't really know what else to tell you at this point.
And I'm a straight white male who has experienced objectification, negative stereotyping, etc. and you're telling me how I can't experience the same things you can.
And I'm a straight white male who has experienced objectification, negative stereotyping, etc. and you're telling me how I can't experience the same things you can.
Exactly. Can we get a little sympathy for the straight white man's plight over here?
Exactly. Can we get a little sympathy for the straight white man's plight over here?
You're right, only extremes exist. Its all or nothing. :thumbup:
I laid out a detailed reply with examples and he immediately cops out with a one liner about mansplaining. There is no stereotyping or bias occurring here.
Replies
I can stop thinking about that one line though, where the android says "I am entirely at your disposal as a sexual partner"
"disposal"
Would you...like....physically destroy it with your penis?
heh.
And considering she'll cry and resist you shows clear design for sickos in mind
lol being "at someone's disposal" literally means ready to assist someone in any way they wish.
The word "disposal" doesn't equate to the stand alone meaning when used in that sentence, yo.
Goddamn my English teacher was so hot. I listened to every word she said... *sigh*
Reminded me of this video series I've been watching, which is about movies and Legos, but applies 100% to the game industry.
[ame="
[ame="
However as a female I thoroughly enjoyed Kara; I watched it 3 times in a row. Maybe what was seen as a cute nude girl, to me that makes sense for a household robot to be made that way. The pivoting moment when she realized she was about to lose it all, the camera came close to her beating heart, which should it stop beating, I suppose that'd be when she would no longer function.
I'm curious what would have made this video less for a male audience besides the obvious mild nudity. Maybe if she didn't cry her way out of it and broke the machines that confined her? That way she found her own way out rather than at the permission of the offscreen male.
1. Have the controller be female also.
2. Have her escape on her own rather than needing the male controller save her.
3. Lose the "I'm your fuck doll" line.
4. Make her more androgynous.
5. shit, make it instead a male.
6. Leave her still upset at the controller for almost terminating her, rather than grateful, which is done to make her seem "nice". If she'd kept legitimately mad she was created to be owned and was then almost destroyed because she displayed emotions, that would show her to be more self confident, but those are traits game designers normally only imbue male characters with. Instead she displays gratitude, and the viewer is pretty clearly supposed to identify as the controller.
I said I liked it. It was well done. The setting itself could have small things changed to make it have less male gaze, but since almost everyone involved was almost assuredly straight white men, the entire setting was conceived from the beginning with this setup in mind. The best way to make it more for a general audience is to have a general production team. Women are half the world's population but make up an insignificant amount of decision makers in games. Same with people of color, GLBT, etc. Having a more diverse team will just naturally result in more diverse themes and settings.
while i agree with you, i've got to say that i wouldn't have the first clue how to appeal to gay men, or gay women, and i'd even hesitate at trying to appeal to straight women.
Sure, and I'd have a hard time making a sexually appealing female for straight men, but that's why you want a diverse group in your team so you can draw on everyone's strengths and preferences. This is why more women, more people of color, and more GLBT in games is a good thing, and long overdue. Much better to have them helping to make more diverse themes, than the existing group just trying to guess what those people would want to see.
It's not like there aren't *any* people in these groups with qualified resumes/portfolios. Sure there might be fewer, but if you're a company wanting to push narrative boundaries, I'm sure you could try to find some of them for your team.
Hello everybody!
I work with "Bal" in Quantic Dream.
I worked a lot on KARA for this video and I'm very happy that it's finally shown and enjoyed to a lot of people, we did this more than 1,5 year ago and we thought that it would never be shown.
So just for information the haircut is the one of the actress "Valory Curry" who played the andro
Still, I loved it a lot. Everyone at my work had great things to say about it too
edit: effing code, I'm done googling why strike won't work.
captured her pretty well from where i'm sitting!
absolutely
Why? Because a girl android can't achieve sapience and sentience before a male one?
Just today I the thought the same thing -- of how I would've liked it about a billion times more if the genders had been *anything* different than disembodied male voice and female android. Two men, two women, male android, female voice... it would've been so much fresher with just a slightly different narrative choice.
If it hadn't been so very predictable with it, it could have been something more special than it was. That said, I think it's easy to pick apart its flaws because they're few enough to make it obvious. I really enjoyed the video.
I just addressed one as a joke. The others could be addressed simply by realistically looking at the scenario that you're a corporation whose main product straddles the line between household appliance and slave, where procedure is to disassemble (kill) sentient/sapient units for testing, and you're telling me that this corporation would not build an android based on market research similar to our own? Of course some things represented in this video are sexist, like the robot's self spoken marketing including sex (why does she have to do it with a man?), but thats because of how a "product" like this would be developed and marketed in reality. You're attributing sexism to this development team, when likely what they were doing was addressing realistic views of how a gynoid would be designed, marketed, and sold in reality today.
But even if we grant your premise and say the android must be female -- to make the disembodied voice were female instead of male, it would've changed the dynamic of the two characters drastically. The voice would not have seemed so lecherous and creepy -- I think this would've strengthened the story, especially considering the android's blandly nice reaction to her rescue.
It's pretty clear they are pandering to the status quo, that was my criticism. If they want to push boundaries, do something different while still making it appealing. Anyone can use sex to sell, but that's for beer commercials.
Plus you get into the chicken and egg situation. We are how we are socially *because* of the collective decisions of hundreds of straight male dominated advertising, film, comic, commercial, and videogame boards keep pushing us down this road. This is not some kind of physics based "must be" that cannot be changed. It's all influenced by everything else, and the number one area to push into a new area would be a company trying to bill themselves as breaking new barriers.
There isn't anything wrong per se about the clip, and this is probably the tenth time I said I liked it. My criticism is that it could have actually been fresh, rather than just a slight technical twist on the same old same old.
Then we would be debating as to why it wasn't female, or why a female could not have successfully talked her way out of the facility. This is what my original joke was alluding to. Unless we were expecting them to make two separate movies showing the exact same scenario.
She didn't have to be, see above.
Women can't be lecherous and creepy towards other women? Or if the android was male, men?
I think then we'd probably also be debating about how it was stereotypical that the female operator felt empathy/sympathy/sorrow towards the android and decided to let her go free.
Also I don't think the android really had a choice in this matter. Again, realistically, if it acted pissed off instead of grateful for rescue it wouldn't have been boxed and shipped out. It could've also been done solely for vocal contrast, in the same way you would sometimes put complimentary or contrasting colors together.
So what would have been fresh or boundary pushing, that would not have required a prior setup or explanation, since androids of every sex (and no sex) achieving sentience/sapience that then rebel against their cruel human captors has been done before?
Women can be lecherous. The point is they never get the chance to be, they are portrayed as meek fuckdolls 99% of the time. Just changing it to a creepy lecherous female operator would also have been incredibly fresh in terms of game themes. The point is not that Men are always creepy and women aren't, it's that we always *always* get it served to us this way.
We're also talking about slight tweaks to an entirely fictitious scenario. This is a not a real world with real characters/physics/rules that force certain end points, it was created from scratch and the creators had full control over every single aspect, so everything is clearly there for a reason, which is why it's so easy to analyze that it's chock full of male gaze.
If it was a female voice and you as a man decided to feel it was only because women are weak that she let her go, well that's on you, that doesn't make the situation just as sexist as it was executed. Women can feel sympathy for other people, male or female.
And again, there are several ways to resolve her anger at being almost terminated. I mentioned her escaping, and I'm sure a creative design team could come up with several more. The point is that they didn't, they specifically chose the way that would most appeal to straight men. This is fine, if it were balanced with other themes, but again, it's not balanced, this is all we ever get.
It's awesome how it is, and all, but why would you try to dissuade discussion of how it couldve been less sexist and cliche? Ben and tully are giving some interesting insight, let them have the floor!
If you CAN'T instantly understand their point about how staggeringly male dominated the story is you have a big opportunity to learn something -- that part is pretty much indisputable.
Edit: I'm also not trying to rag on you or insult you or anything, it just seemed like you were getting worked up over something that might not be there, or was there for a non-sinister purpose.
I don't believe his point is really grounded in whether it was designed to appeal to you at all. As far as i understand, he and tully were discussing the notion that the story is male dominated, and that all action in the story is carried out by male characters, and that the primary female character is portrayed as impotent -- all things which make it a male focused story.
There's certainly something to discuss about whether that makes it a MORE powerful story, though, and I'd kindof speculate that the writer actively chose to make it a woman in a dangerous situation becuase he thought it had more emotional impact than a woman in control. It's not like quantic dream has never had a tech demo with a dominant female character in it.
I don't believe I have yet seen a male android rescued by a male human lover. Certainly not in a video game. And the whole point is that a good story doesn't need tons of setup. without any explanation we gathered from this clip that it's the future, much higher level of technology is present, that the controller is a technician of some sort, etc etc. If the decision makers of this demo had been from a broader spectrum of gender, sexual orientation (and arguably race), it just would have been different.
Even if every combo has been done before, the one that has been done the most by far, is the sexy impotent femmebot rescued by male savior.
Plus your argument boils down to that despite the fact she is white, the setup is that of straight female sexdoll with straight male controller/savior, basically *the* most stereotypical setup possible, that there is *no possible variation* that could have been just as good or even better. That alone is evidence of either glaring privilege or flatout racism and heteronormative thinking.
For example, as a white person, if I wanted to design some characters who are african-american, a very good thing to do would be to listen to what african-american people say on the subject of portrayals of african-americans in the media. Because I don't have the social background myself, if I want to include that audience in whatever I'm doing or I merely don't want to *accidently exclude* them through my own ignorance, I have to try to understand a bit of what my own perspective lacks.
In this case, if a straight male storyteller wants to tell a story to an audience that includes anybody who is NOT a straight male -- people like me and poop -- he should listen.
This video is not unusually sexist by any means ... it's merely a bog standard, particularly blatant example of male-gaze. Because it's SO obvious, it's worth noting here.
I found the whole thing ham-fisted in this respect because I couldn't tell whether the storyteller is intentionally criticizing the fact of this male gaze and commenting on how women might feel about it, or he just using the video as his platform to leer at that sexy woman? I feel like the storyteller doesn't know either.
I'm not arguing what would have made it "better", I'm arguing that from the way you are describing it, you would've found sexism in anything that wasn't exquisitely tailored to suite your view of what is not sexist.
How would you accidentally exclude them in a racist or biased way if you depicted them as if you were depicting yourself, excluding cultural differences?
I'm also wondering if this discussion could be pulled out of this thread and into its own thread for depictions of stereotypes in media...
Being part of the powerful privileged group, the particular ways in which black people are portrayed differently to white people, or women are portrayed differently to men (or whatever groups you want to use) are very difficult to actually see. It just seems like the default, proper way to do things, because we haven't seen anything else. The best way to become aware of this stuff is to go ask somebody of whatever the minority group is in question. It's often extremely obvious to them.
A particular example from a few years ago springs to mind -- there were some editorials in Vogue where they dressed a white model in blackface. People got mad, and I think fairly rightfully so, considering how awful and paternalistic minstrel shows were. It's insulting .. if you cared at all about how black people felt about your product, and as your audience, you wouldn't go there. But plainly they didn't care, or they just had no idea.
Or in a story like The Help -- it's a story about black women written by a white woman, and it's essentially a feel good story for white people. The black women who played the main roles did an amazing job of it, but I've read that they've had to deal with a lot of backlash in the black community for playing domestic servants at all. That they would find such a thing objectionable makes perfect sense, but I personally might not have anticipated it because of my lack of experience. If we care, it's good to ask.
I just mean that sort of thing. A straight man may not be thinking at all about how his product is perceived by straight women or GBLT people, but if he wants them to be a part of his audience, he should.
I see your points about variation or making something a bit mor interesting,
but speaking statistically this scenario is the most likely.
When we see realistic androids rolling out of the factories they will largely come with sexual functions, and even though we will eventually become fully open towards different sexual orientations the hetero/homosexual ratio will not change.
In fact, this felt so typical that I did not see any attraction or love between this controller and the android as it would be like a fluffer falling in love the pornstars.
He seemed mainly freaked out as if one day on your slaughter farm, one of the pigs suddenly said "please don't kill me".
For men she is the perfect woman, as she was created to be, as the android sex bussiness will end up like in the future, and for women she is still this scared woman they might identify themselves with,
a female main character.
Again, if you depict them as you would depict yourself, how do you fall into this pitfall you mention?
What I'm getting at is that as a straight white male, I did not see the android response to being disassembled as sexist, not because of stereotyping women as weak and submissive because I'm a straight white male (suggesting I must do this because I am a straight white male is in and of itself a form of negative stereotyping), but because if I were in the position of the android, hostility, aggression, rebellion and anger towards the operator would seem like a guaranteed way to get myself killed, since as far as I'm aware from my few minutes of existence, the operator can control whether I live or die at the push of a button. Poop and yourself seem to suggest that these actions would make the narrative better, and would be non-sexist.
Also, if I were to portray a black person like myself, that could be a form of white washing... because the experience IS different. I'm not black. It depends on the story, obviously, but to think it's the same isn't right either. I don't think I would be competent to do it because I don't trust my own privileged worldview to tell me what's truthful about other people. You shouldn't trust yours either.
Here may be the misunderstanding -- that part in itself isn't so much the sexist bit. The sexism is inherent in the entire construction of the scenario. Powerful, distant, lecherous, paternalistic, creator man -- powerless, passive, sexualized woman. She is an object to be sold and leered at. She lives and dies by his say-so -- the way she reacted at the end was her character's acquiescence that she's ok about what just happened. If it had all been the same, but her character, instead of smiling sweetly at the end, had had a look of conflicted terror on her face, it could've changed it. She's about to be sold into slavery, afterall.
Also, the video seems to acknowledge that this scenario is distasteful at the same time that it tacitly invites the viewer to leer at her naked body and see her as a sexual object. The messages are conflicted.
What I'm saying is that it would be more interesting if the android were male, mostly because in the media people usually are not invited to look at men as sexual objects. It would be a fresh and interesting perspective. Similarly, a scenario involving two women would be more interesting, because this in sort of sci-fi setting, relationships between women are extremely unusual to see. It would have different undertones, and it would have been something we don't see very often.
edit: I guess I don't find it all that problematic to put a straight white male into a scenario where he is being subjugated (in a story, not for reals), only because it is so opposite to the way the world normally works. The android being a woman in this story uses and reinforces a male societal power over women that actually does exist, and doesn't clearly label it a bad thing. The converse does not exist ... at least not in the west on a large scale, so it is less problematic to use as a storytelling device.
I guess in the world of KARA there's male version too of her (she's a AX 400 so the male could be AY 400), but we could say that none of them had their conscience woke up, it's my personal explanation XD
Daelus: for the hair there's no limitation at all, when we do mocap the hair of the actors are hidden even if they are long, so it's just a decision inside that tell us what kind of hair we do, for sure long hair are more difficult to produce and move but in our next game there will be more various haircut
First, people are not 100% rational actors. Look at how people respond in all sorts of trauma experiences, and you'll very rarely see the stuff that in hindsight *might* gain a positive reaction. And you ignored now several times the fact I offered an alternate scenario (her escaping on her own) that would allow her not to have to fall into happy acceptance of her fate and gratitude to the male voice.
And giving her a different reaction would make it less sexist, but the whole scenario needs changing to make it non-sexist. That would just be one small step.
No one has suggested you "must do this because you are a straight white male". We are examining the scenario, and who it was tailored for. The vast majority of media representation is made by and for straight white men, and that is our entire critique; that while it was good storytelling, the setup itself was cliche.
And Tully made an excellent point. Women are not just men with vaginas, and people of color and GLBT *do* experience life differently as minorities, so just writing them as one would write a straight white male character, but with breasts, or brown skin, or with a lesbian tickbox checked, does not make them well made inoffensive characters. In fact, frequently it makes them inaccurate cartoon stereotypes.
unfortunately, GLBT community are a minority, so it's likely that the number of people within that community working in the games industry is going to be very very small. considder then that you have a minority of developers within that community, making games aimed for the minority of the general population at large, and with the ignorance of said population at large, any studio that attempts to do that is likely to find they go out of business very quickly.
it's sad, and it's currently a fact of life... i don't like it, you don't like it. but it's been proven that people trying to change this status quo too fast just crash and burn.
I felt the same. It felt like he was testing her.
It's artistic expression, you had your emotions on a race track while they demo their tech. Amazing if you ask me.
the group is male age 20 to 37, and we all know that in your late teens and 20's were all pretty sex obsessed, so what is the problem with games marketing to that group, with there characters and scenario decisions in games.
Its not as difficult as you might think, you just have to be placed in a situation for an extended period of time where you are the minority instead of the privileged group.
See below.
What you are describing are cultural differences, not racial or gender based differences. A black person living in the South of the United States is going to have a different life experience from a black person living in the UK, or a black person living in Africa. I think this is the main point I have to drive home. This links back to my first statement above.
You're defining the presentation of a scenario that occurs on a daily basis in our reality as sexist (minus the robot/SciFi parts, since human trafficking still exists). If I record a racist on video for a day as a documentary into this person's life, is the video racist for the views it depicts, or is the person who is in the video racist?
It would more likely be bringing sultry romance novel tropes into videogames.
It would also probably be more interesting if we changed it so that it was a robot holding a human hostage.
...again, and then we'd either be having a discussion as to why its sexist that the video depicts two men and no women, or a man being subjugated by a woman, or a woman caving to empathy/sympathy and letting the man go, or the man displaying his natural violent tendencies to free himself, or a list of other tropes.
We have real life reference for how people react, and we can draw on that.
1) The scenario presented is realistic because it happens in reality, and we have documented cases of this behavior
2) It is unrealistic to expect successful escape from anyone in the scenario presented (I'd have to rewatch the video but it doesn't seem like the android realized what exactly was going to happen until the diss-assembly process had already started).
This seems absurd from the points I've raised above with yourself and Tully; that we can never in the future portray things that happen in our own reality with a scifi twist simply because someone is going to claim the medium itself as sexist and not the content its portraying. I have no problem labeling the company that would create this android in the fictional world the video creates sexist, but you are extending this to the video itself.
Like I've mentioned with Tully, these differences arise mainly because of cultural differences, not because women are incapable of behaving or experiencing the world in the same manner as men, or the same for people of color in the same manner as white people, GLBT as straight people, etc.
And I'm a straight white male who has experienced objectification, negative stereotyping, etc. and you're telling me how I can't experience the same things you can.
Exactly. Can we get a little sympathy for the straight white man's plight over here?
You're right, only extremes exist. Its all or nothing. :thumbup:
I laid out a detailed reply with examples and he immediately cops out with a one liner about mansplaining. There is no stereotyping or bias occurring here.
This is why I try to avoid debates here at P-Count, words don't always convey appropriate meaning and context...sorry about that.