CHUN_LI [WIP]

vavavoom

current:


i began roughing out the clothes today:



still deciding where to go with some proportions as the the boobs in the chun li figure are bigger than those in the cammy one as reference (i used the cammy figure for body reference suggested by Ikosan as it was a good front profile view)

*boobs little too high up?

[i have lowered them since]

haikai

I don't think starting a new thread is going to help you generate more interest. I think this must be the third thread I've seen this model in? The reason why responses may have been trailing off is because it doesn't look like you've made a lot of real progress lately, just a lot of little tweaks.

The model itself is looking good. Trust your instincts and just take it to completion. I recommend UV mapping this and putting together a quick texture to see how it looks. You can always go back and tweak things later.

MrOneTwo

In previous thread you asked about everything making micro steps... Just go forward. Don't be afraid of making mistakes. Creating new thread is really too much...

MM

frankly, your threads look like troll posts.

in case it isnt, you may wanna revisit previous feedback you got and work on them

you still have not fixed the eyes, it was the very first problem you had.

Neox wrote: »

nah its not only that, only if you are focussing pretty close to the face your eyes tend to cross, usually they are rotated slightly outwards



also something which makes eyes usually look kinda weird is wrong diameters, most of the times people do them too big, however in your case as you stylize them it's not that much of an issue. So if you want to do it more real, a diameter between 2.4 and 2.5cm is pretty much the avarage, but most of the times i end up using one of 2.6cm as it looks better from my experience

MM wrote: »

the eyes looks still look cross eyed. looks like you have not rotated them.

as Steffen stated above, you have to rotate the eye balls slightly so that they point away from each other. tweak the angle of divergence according to your model.

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92583

vavavoom

..good point..

i think i should curb my enthusiasm to post. i guess the constant 'micro-steps' or tweak posts are because i don't have the confidence & skills, so seek approval on every little thing before trying to move on. also because of lack of time, most modeling i can do is limited to 'micro-tweaks' as such.

my humblest apologies, and i had better take a break from the posts after this

i should mention though, just in a little way of my defense and with thanks to those who were patient with me, i feel that all the crits, comments, advice along the way from my 'micro-steps' have got the model to the stage it's at now. without the helpful guys who kindly steered me in the right direction, i probably would have spent hours making bigger progress with a completed character but in the wrong direction, got tired & frustrated and maybe given up by now.

and i must mention about the eyes.. i did take on board the advice and tried it out, researched as much as i could, looked at some wireframes from actual game models i was able to find, and found that many eyes were not angled. in the end i felt that with the changes in the geometry and loops around the eyes as i progressed the head, it eradicated the cross-eye effect. i always appreciate & value any advice given and never discard anything without trying it or considering it.

i tried to keep a good ratio of white area either side of the iris judging from the ref photos. maybe they still look cross-eyed and i am missing it?

garriola83

the distance between the eyes needs to be one eye width. keep working on it man, i'd like to see this completed

vavavoom

thanks garriola83, i just noticed and tweaked that after your reply and tried to sneak a new updated pic into the above post before anyone might notice
i guess the micro-steps posts also help me see what its looking like outside of the max viewport which i find helpful to notice things i didn't quite see in max.

MM

still cross-eyed!

vavavoom

MM, i appreciate the frank advice i will play around with it some more. i guess i am missing it.

haikai

I personally keep the eyes on my models pointing straight ahead. I've talked to different artists and I haven't really come to a conclusive answer on whether eyes should be rotated or not, despite what x-ray images suggest. Rotating them does make it easier to avoid cross eyed looks, but then it can give you highlights on the eyes that aren't in the same place which can lead to a cross eyed effect also. With some tweaks to the eye orbit area it should be possible to make a decent head with eyes pointing straight ahead, but that's just my opinion. :poly136:

As for your model, you're gonna have to bite the bullet and just run with a direction eventually. In a professional environment you're not ever going to have this much time to deliberate a decision. It's better to make mistakes and learn from them so you can make your next model better. You shouldn't trap yourself into thinking that this is going to be a masterpiece. Besides, again, you can always go back and tweak stuff later. Making the "wrong" decision now shouldn't prevent you from being able to fix it.

MM

haikai wrote: »

I personally keep the eyes on my models pointing straight ahead. I've talked to different artists and I haven't really come to a conclusive answer on whether eyes should be rotated or not, despite what x-ray images suggest. Rotating them does make it easier to avoid cross eyed looks, but then it can give you highlights on the eyes that aren't in the same place which can lead to a cross eyed effect also. With some tweaks to the eye orbit area it should be possible to make a decent head with eyes pointing straight ahead, but that's just my opinion.

why would highlights on the model make it look cross-eyes ? unless you are talking about painted highlights and not shader highlights!

if you keep the eyes straight then you would have to push in the tear duct area (medial angle) and pull out the outer corner (lateral angle) and the cheek bone more to compensate for it.

haikai

MM wrote: »

why would highlights on the model make it look cross-eyes ? unless you are talking about painted highlights and not shader highlights!

if you keep the eyes straight then you would have to push in the tear duct area (medial angle) and pull out the outer corner (lateral angle) and the cheek bone more to compensate for it.

Here's an example:


Notice how on the rotated eyes that the specular highlights are not in the same place on the two eyes anymore. If you look at most pictures of people you'd get the specular pretty much in the same spots on the eyes:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-edXGXd8S3gE/Tkc3AIJz5iI/AAAAAAAAFtI/U9-x24xDqoo/s1600/Candice+Swanepoel-victoria+secret-sexy-hot-bikini-+%252812%2529.jpg

I should say that I do see photos where the highlights are slightly off which suggest that the eyes really are rotated a bit, but it's very subtle. I figure it would also make it slightly more awkward to rig with the eyes rotated as well so I just keep them straight. To each his own though!

Here's an example of an old head model (wow, that sculpt is bad now that I look at it again!) I made with the eyes rotated:


It drove me crazy that the highlights on the eyes seemed askew compared to the reference photo. I'd love to hear some other opinions on this though. OP: Sorry for derailing the thread!

mutatedjellyfish

Anything you do with eyes needs to be subtle and slight. A lot of Disney character designs will slightly cross the eyes or make them ever-so-asymmetrical in order to make them appear cuter, more friendly, goofy, or mysterious. In other words, it can give them more life and personality, unlike 100-yard-stare up there. ^^^

Case in point: http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationswesternanimation/incredibles/Mirage.jpg

Whatever you do, though, needs to be subtle subtle subtle.

In any case, none of this is going to come through in your character's current state. Once you get her done and textured and you start playing with expression, then you can worry about eyeball rotation. We're putting carts before horses here.

MM

@vavavoom - dont mean to hijack your thread but since the information seems to be relevant to your work i hope it is ok.


@haikai, i see what you are saying but i dont really see how that is a problem. it is supposed to be that way.

like you said, there are different photos with different camera angles. following have off center highlights and closer to center slightly than 100% parallel.





if you take a photo from long distance with less perspective distortion then you will get highlights in similar position. if you take photo from closer and wider perspective with more perspective distortion you will get highlights in different positions. it is supposed to be that way as far as i have researched.

now some studios have occasionally asked for straight eye models but only because of rigging issues and not for realism or anatomical reasons.

if you want to be anatomically correct then offset the angle slightly like ~5 degrees or less.

Hazardous

Gotta throw my 2p in, soz OP!

For me, I almost always go with what I think looks best, and with pretty females, thats symmetry. I totally get what Hai's saying about that highlight stuff, it bothers me for exactly the same reason. And regardless of how it is in real life, i think its one of those things that im more than happy to overlook and 'hyperrealise' by making it perfectly symmetrical.

However, what MM's saying is also totally true if you want to be anatomically correct, its best to rotate them a bit.

What will you do ?

MM

when you start with 100% parallel eyes the front of the face and the forehead area tends to look flatter than usual. i can see the same flatness on Hai's model a bit.

technically it is still symmetrical when you offset both eyes in the same amount. it is just not parallel.

and theoretically speaking, i believe you have a better chance at giving a character more life when you consider real anatomy more.

this is less evident with asian faces or anime style faces due to asian features being more flat from other races.

so considering that you could go either.

vavavoom

well, i learnt a lesson on forum posting, stick to 1 thread early on i had made a mistake of thinking a new thread was the only way to keep any progress updated on the thread list and just delete any old ones later (it's not possible to delete a thread?). and now i've seen my past threads appear again with comments on older progress.

i must apologize for the clutter from my inexperience using forums combined with over-eagerness to post asking for advice.

so, i must keep with this thread now, and someone suggested maybe the old threads can be merged into one by a moderator?

but, all of these comments and opinions have been helpful to get a better understanding about using forums as well as modeling

i felt little embarrassed to try and post again, but someone mentioned the "'100 yard stare' up there" and i guess that was referring to my earlier attempt at the eyes(gonna delete that pic, feel embarrassed).. so i felt determined to try and fix that.. i was trying to achieve a neutral looking face with no emotion.


i tried to re-model the face using a different topology in the hope it would appear more natural. gonna fix any issues i can see here. i am hoping the new topology will help fix some problems i was having in achieving a good overall shape.

MM

she looks even more cross-eyed than before

and yes the ears are too big

vavavoom

thanks MM, am still fighting to work them without the rotation, i read the interesting opinions about eye rotation, and am determined to try it with no rotation as others seem to achieve it well, so its kinda bugging me to not get it right also. i guess, if its not working after a few more attempts on the new topology then i must concede.

no comments on the new topology? i was hoping it was an improvement on the old one, and would help with the eyes.. but maybe not, as you mention it is more cross-eyed now..

whats_true

Those ears are pretty big, like Ben stiller big. Look at the reference right above your last post and take a good look at how wide her ears are.

vavavoom

yes, big like ben stiller ears, ha! i always miss big things like that when am working in max viewport. only after i see a screen grab, stuff like that really stands out.

Mithdia

I think the cross-eyedness you're having is due to your eyeballs not being spaced wide apart enough.... hopefully my horrible paintover helps you understand what I'm trying to say

vavavoom

Thank you so much for the paintover Mithdia

mutatedjellyfish

More progress, less noodling on the head over and over and over. My advice would be to move on and come back to it later if it looks wonky.

Orangeknight

Yeah don't focus on the small details until you finish, because you never know what the finished product will do to effect the other parts of the model.

MM

still cross-eyed, but it is up you whether you wanna address it or move on to the rest of your character.

here is my suggestion from a previous post to fix it.

MM wrote: »

if you keep the eyes straight then you would have to push in the tear duct area (medial angle) and pull out the outer corner (lateral angle) and the cheek bone more to compensate for it.

bigger eyes should be fine if you go for stylized look. bigger eyes actually would make her look cuter in my opinion.
you can still have perfect non-cross-eyed eyes even if they are big.

vavavoom

i think i maybe have got it fixed now.. i really hope..

vavavoom

i tried a lot of what was suggested and i'm really hoping there has been an improvment.., i really appreciate all the help & advice, thank you.

vavavoom

hair coming next..

vavavoom

i finally took the advice about not getting stuck into the little details (as mutatedjellfish & Orangeknight suggested) , as i began modeling the rest i could get a better feel of the shape, so thanks for the good advice

hair, as promised..


if theres anymore crits, advice, suggests, i am still always eager.

tmrw, i'll put it all together and finish up the clothes.

vavavoom

i also forgot to mention, i was wondering any thoughts about the capture of likeness/styzation of the ref model;


i played around for a while with eye/nose/jaw size and finally settled with what i got now. at one point i managed to get it looking a lot more closer to the ref photo, but it lost that slightly anime look.

my aim was/is to find a good balance to achieve a stylized/slight anime look of the original person, so i wonder about any thoughts on that?

garriola83

vavavoom wrote: »

i finally took the advice about not getting stuck into the little details (as mutatedjellfish & Orangeknight suggested) , as i began modeling the rest i could get a better feel of the shape, so thanks for the good advice

hair, as promised..


if theres anymore crits, advice, suggests, i am still always eager.

tmrw, i'll put it all together and finish up the clothes.

much better now, just keep working on it. the community here is really helpful, so keep truckin and we will try and help out

vavavoom

thanks garriola83 the more i progress now and look back , the more it seems i really was hung up on little details that stopped it making any big progress. i'd like to think it's been much more than a 'micro tweak' since last time so i feel a little braver to post this time.

i have finished with the head now, which is a huge milestone for me even though it may seem insignificant to many. i'm thinking that once i got this my first character finished (i'm talking just the model, not texturing..) that i can work from it to make another, and much quicker with more confidence next time.

what about the proportions, stylization of character? the balance between being recognizable to the real life person vs. a more anime, more computer game look?

vavavoom

not sure if im going the right way with the clothes, but heres the progress:

made the boobs bigger and pushed them together.. but now i think i prefer the smaller boobs & smaller head as in the cammy ref, compared to bigger in the figurine ref photo i started out with.







at the moment there are a few things i want to change;
-fix the neck.
-make the feet a better shape/geometry.
-add the string bows at the sides of the waist and shape the string around the waist.
-fix any clipping with the clothes.

still really would appreciate any crits for things i have overlooked, or havn't noticed, problems..

MM

face is looking better, so good progress on that!

as for the body, the side profile of the legs and arms look off.

push in the area underneath the hip bone and push in the back of the knee area.

for the arm, the elbow seems too far down, pull it up and adjust the bicep so that it isnt so thick.

Jigsaw

She looks pretty great to me. The only thing that really stands out in my eyes (apart from the obvious issues with the neck) is how her arms are pretty noodly and shapeless compared to the rest of her. I think one of the reasons it looks a little odd is that her torso and shoulders are quite slim, but her hands are fairly big. Next to her torso her upper arms look almost beefy, but they're more or less the same size (if not smaller) than the lower arms, which look almost thin in relation to the hands.

I like the size of the hands - what I think you should do is push the shape of the arms and give them a more curvy and/or muscular look. Maybe even just making her deltoids more pronounced could make a difference. With the overall proportions I think you would have room to play quite a bit with the shape and definition of the arms without losing the overall slender look.

THIS piece of art from Street Fighter Zero 3 I think might be a helpful reference. She is clearly athletic, and her arms are well defined, but she still has a slender (and undoubtedly feminine) frame.



edit: yeah... what that guy said.

vavavoom

thanks so much for the advice MM & Jigsaw! MM, i changed the legs as suggested. gonna fix the neck etc, soon..

vavavoom

a quick & dirty proportions change.

Fingus

Neck looks odd the way it tapers in towards the torso. Bicep seems a bit too thick for her body type. The deltoid should probaby go lower on the arm.

vavavoom

thanks, still needs plenty of work, am still roughing it out.

i know the neck is off-putting, the head and tapered neck is seperate obj to the body, so as soon as i got the body down, gonna attach the head and fix

vavavoom

shifted deltoids lower. if anyone has any ideas/paintovers, i would really appreciate. maybe i am falling into the trap of staring too long and missing things..

vavavoom

when viewed at angles, i like the overall shape, chunkiness of the thighs, and other proportions in both orthographic & perspective.

but when viewed front/side profiles in orthographic (see next post), just feels i'm missing something but can't put my finger on it?

orthographic/perspective


*the boobs need a good fix next i know...

vavavoom

did an overhaul of the shoulders/boobs;





if any has any crits, paintovers, i would really appreciate.

-feet re-work next..

vavavoom

re-worked the pose and had to change a lot of geometry too.
i searched a lot of wire images of game models to see what poses are used for the modeling of a games character. i chose to use the pose i saw in a final fantasy cahracetr model wire image i googled.
i wonder if there is an ideal pose?
i would like to feel, i managed to achieve a better shape for my model using this pose.

orthogrpahic:


perspective:


i am not sure whether i can push the chest/rib area more? if anyone has suggestions, i would be most grateful!
i had a play with adding some more geometry in that area, but i thought it looked really ugly and messy. i like the clean version i have now.

vavavoom

quick fix of the chest area:
think her chest was sticking out too far before.



her boobs still need some love.

garriola83

Definitely on the way to becoming better. The key about pleasing looking breasts, aside from the natural teardrop shape, is the sideboob.

KINDA NSFW



Notice how it follows up the armpit, and covers a good amount of the ribcage's side. But then again, not all boobs are created/enhanced equal. Good Luck

vavavoom

Finally finished with the body, so to begin a fresh thread devoted to the clothes & texturing. am pretty excited to begin learning how to texture. as for the clothes, i already began them (not in these screens) and they shouldn't be a problem as they are a very simple design(optimistic).

as always, am always seeking crits, comments, suggestions. thanks

here's how the body/head finished up:

Poribo

It's looking good so far, I think the neck is a bit long though.

Also you should keep everything in one thread. There's no need for a new thread for every process you go through with one character :-/

mars_biogenesis

Before you go to far on the clothes, going from your reference the breasts are too small and too high (and chun-li has bigger breasts than Juri anyway so they should be a bit lower depending on the costume / bra situation) and the eyes are too high. Hope that helps

Edit: the most important part!!!! her thighs / legs are too thin and her hips aren't large enough, this is chun-li!! THUNDER THIGHS!

vavavoom

thanks guys. yeah, neck maybe too long. boobs, well, her boobs differ in size from reference to reference, so i couldn't make up my mind. the juri ref was used to get a better basic body outline because i couldn't find a good front one of chunli, also i really like the body style in that ref image.
the boobs in that image are difficult to judge tho, heres the full concept sketch sheet i used: (hope its ok to post)
they look much bigger in the front pose than the other sketches? i couldnt figure it out.


the face proportions are a bit more realistic compared to the ref, i had based the head on a real person and trying to balance it with more anime style proportions, (bigger eyes, ears). i guess i could push the anime look more, still havnt made up my mind yet how far to push it.

left: (original)/right: cloned with lowered eyes, smaller nose/ears/jaw (more anime attempt). **ears will be shrunk more..

[edit] i chose to continue with the right one. if anyone has any more opinions on this, i would be really grateful. but i am going to push on with learning to unwrap & texture in the meantime.


as for starting a new thread, the last one was getting pretty long & cluttered with what someone described as 'micro-tweaks', which was true.
so i wanted to start a clean thread and only show bigger progress steps focused on unwrapping & texturing (excluding this post to explain the whys).
now i have got the geometry just the way i want it, changing things like boobs/thigh size will be very quick and easy to fix with no need for 'micro-tweak' posts.

this is my first ever character model (first ever real model for that matter) that i am making, and texturing, so unwrapping & texturing is like a whole project in itself for me.

next post she'll be fully clothed & beginning to unwrap! will be using unwrella to unwrap.

haikai

Dude... ANOTHER thread? -_- It looks like you're starting this one off with more micro tweaks. Even though this is your first real character model, maybe ESPECIALLY because this is your first real character model, I suggest you be more loose about this and move on more quickly. This isn't going to be your masterpiece. You've got some talent for this, I think, but you're just holding your own development back this way. You don't need to ask for feedback after every adjustment. Do a bunch of things before showing for the sake of economy!

As for the model itself, the thing that sticks out to me are the shapes of the legs. They're missing a lot of anatomical cues that make legs sexy. You could achieve this with the amount of geometry you have right now if you place your verts correctly. The bicep area should be thinner because it's the triceps that creates most of the visual bulk of the upper arm in front view.