Oh, believe me, I know. On kind of a tangent, I think part of the root of this discussion comes back to mentality more than ideology.
[...]
Somewhere, I wonder if the low-level mindset factor of "working as a group to get something" versus "I shall hew it with my own two hands" comes into play.
...we're getting off the subject.
This makes a lot of sense. You come across much more well versed (read: intelligent) than most who use the arguments you've presented. I would definitely attribute that logic to your stance.
I think part of the root of this discussion comes back to mentality more than ideology.
You are absolutely right .. and on so many levels. I've always found that once I discuss the strengths of unionization, the only counter arguments that are presented are ones of fear or mistrust. Its difficult to argue against the focusing of leverage to create workplace equity.
Your point of "Doing for one's self" fits nicely with the need for unionization in situations where employers are taking advantage of the lack of a collective contract. Unions would never want to keep you from achieving in the field based on merit. All unions try to do is establish minimums and standards that are mutually agreed to be beneficial.
If they started at noon that's a 10 hour day, if you take a lunch it's a 9 hour day.
Very good point. Since the [START] row is above 12:00, and the rows seem to indicate a 2 hour jump, I would guess the start time at the studio is 10:am. Working 10:am to 10:pm is a 12 hour day. If there is a lunch break of 1 hour that is a true "break", that would leave 11 hours.
Now, is the studio working the artists on a 10hr day schedule? Have they built OT into that 10 hour day? Are the artists asked to work flat rates and not being paid OT or given a meal break? All good questions.
I'm sort of late to this thread, but for the free market isn't the ideal situation to have competitive small firms and disorganized workers rather than large corporations and unions? I'm surprised the topic of 'indie' hasn't really been brought up since that seems to me like the most obvious way a skilled worker would deal with not having a corporate job (pursue their own work indipendently). Funding programs like 'kickstarter', concepts like 'venture capital', structures like 'cooperatives', isn't this the direction we should be looking in? I understand that in some industries it isn't feasible to have small, independent studios, but for games that clearly is not the case. If people want to be rewarded appropriately for their skill and the quality of their work then isn't a more indie mindset the way to go?
There is nothing wrong with the "indie". Most vfx studios I know were small, boutique "indies" before they became Foundation Imagine, Zoic or Rhythm and Hues.
However, history shows that rarely are the proprietors of "indie" studios happy to be the small, mom & pop shop that cranks out the music videos, commercials and occasional pick-up work on episodics.
(apologies for the vfx-centric references, its the world I hail from)
Certainly, if artists are interested in starting up their own shop and pursuing the independent creators route, I wish them all the best for success. It doesn't take away the need for unionization or the reasons why unions are important.
I see what you are saying about how small studios are always pushing to become larger studios, but when they grow to that point, rather than unions I think that there should be the pressure that any good employee could go off and work independently (just like the studio did originally).
I think I'm more interested in a change of mentality from the idea that large employers hold all the cards (making unions necessary), to one where there is a balance between competitive independent-skilled work and the large companies. Independent work is incredibly feasible in this industry, and unlike many other industries, budget does not directly correlated to quality or marketability (a larger budget isn't going to make the corporate art shop 'out art' the mom and pop art store into ruin).
In this industry the employer should have to think 'I have to provide a better option than independent work is for my employees', which doesn't happen because in the current industry and mindset that isn't saying much. The primary solution above unions in my mind is to make this happen, make independent work the competitive option it should be.
Your statement precludes that unions are only viable in large corporations. I contend that unionization is wise for all employers. If anything shows a commitment to the artists well being and security, its making available a vehicle for the artists to have a voice in the conditions of their workplace. A collective contract provides such an instrument.
While I'll never argue against independent artists working to create and market their art, I would argue that budgets are a deciding factor in a lot of the art field. Your statements are broad enough to keep specific arguments from being made. In the visual effects, and I assume game, industries, budgets tend to be the deciding factor when it comes to scope of the product.
For employers to think:
'I have to provide a better option than independent work is for my employees'
I believe employers have to stop caring about profits first. That's not to say there aren't studios that put artists considerations high on a priority list. But, those studios are few and far between.
I will admit that I have been out of work these past two years but that has nothing to do with the following conclusion as I am not bitter. I cannot be. Even if the development labor did have a voice I would still be out of work because the labor is just that much more talented than when I began. I no longer deserve to be employed considering the vast pool of amazing talent that should have any position I could fill. Sad for me but inspiring as well. No matter what I suppose love of the art still comes first.
On the other hand I have come to the conclusion that our community simply deserves to be fucked over. Whether it be selfish paranoia, lazy ennui or just plain stupidity! To many years have now past by and to many members of your community have been fucked over now. It's like witnessing a bar fight where the guy who is getting his face pummeled keeps getting picked on by the same bully. To the point where you can no longer feel sorry for the guy. And are in fact disgusted by his tears and screams. In fact a better analogy would be if the guy was your brother in law. Someone who's unwillingness to defend himself becomes insulting because it involves your own loved ones interests.
I normally do not subscribe to tough love because it always stinks of negativity disguised to hide one's own guilt over the burden one has to suffer for a loved one and thus an selfish escape. But I figure at some point when you are losing something precious to you, out of desperation you HAVE TO AT LEAST GIVE IT A TRY?
Maybe not now?
But at what point can we just say to ourselves cowered in corner of the bar getting urinated on, "I do not give a fuck that you lost your job in such an unfair way! We decide on this golden shower year after year. We don't have each others back! Just kind words u can try to use on your soon to be ex-wife and mortgage. Here's some words of encouragement, wear lipstick to your next job and go fuck yourself!"
I will admit that I have been out of work these past two years but that has nothing to do with the following conclusion as I am not bitter. I cannot be. Even if the development labor did have a voice I would still be out of work because the labor is just that much more talented than when I began. I no longer deserve to be employed considering the vast pool of amazing talent that should have any position I could fill. Sad for me but inspiring as well. No matter what I suppose love of the art still comes first.
On the other hand I have come to the conclusion that our community simply deserves to be fucked over. Whether it be selfish paranoia, lazy ennui or just plain stupidity! To many years have now past by and to many members of your community have been fucked over now. It's like witnessing a bar fight where the guy who is getting his face pummeled keeps getting picked on by the same bully. To the point where you can no longer feel sorry for the guy. And are in fact disgusted by his tears and screams. In fact a better analogy would be if the guy was your brother in law. Someone who's unwillingness to defend himself becomes insulting because it involves your own loved ones interests.
I normally do not subscribe to tough love because it always stinks of negativity disguised to hide one's own guilt over the burden one has to suffer for a loved one and thus an selfish escape. But I figure at some point when you are losing something precious to you, out of desperation you HAVE TO AT LEAST GIVE IT A TRY?
Maybe not now?
But at what point can we just say to ourselves cowered in corner of the bar getting urinated on, "I do not give a fuck that you lost your job in such an unfair way! We decide on this golden shower year after year. We don't have each others back! Just kind words u can try to use on your soon to be ex-wife and mortgage. Here's some words of encouragement, wear lipstick to your next job and go fuck yourself!"
Have a nice day losers!
I hope I have to eat all my words.
The opportunities for artists, especially game artists, have never been better.
There are fewer AAA game jobs available than ten years ago, but that loss is far outweighed by the gains in mobile, indies and self-employment.
The free or inexpensive tools we have available are powerful and liberating.
There will never be a game artists union with the teeth of anything like an auto workers or teachers union. It has nothing to do with ideology, the simple reality of game production is it is not hindered by investment in physical capital like specialized equipment and large dedicated facilities. If games workers went on strike what do you think would happen if you tried to enforce a picket line? The production would just move, it's all digital, the capital investment is basic commercial real estate and commodity computer hardware. There is no reason to negotiate.
If you want a union you need to be willing to bring production to a halt, that is the only way a union works. If you have no way of actually forcing production to halt with no way of stopping the production from moving and bypassing the strike you have nothing.
All that said I don't honestly believe conditions in the game industry are bad enough to motivate people into the kind of radical and very illegal action that would be required to get a union to be taken seriously. Workers in the industrial revolution had guns pointed at them, and some even died to enforce a picket. Are things bad enough for you that you are willng to die or risk arrest and felony convictions? I'm gong to guess the answer is no, and management knows it.
The opportunities for artists, especially game artists, have never been better.
There are fewer AAA game jobs available than ten years ago, but that loss is far outweighed by the gains in mobile, indies and self-employment.
The free or inexpensive tools we have available are powerful and liberating.
This is the start of a golden age for artists.
come to think of it. despite woe this year at crytek. I intuitively feel this GOOD karma. I think between major depressive mood disorder and drug addiction it's way to late for me. But before the stuff in my blood kills me I'd like to see my heroes respected and feared.
after admitting to suffering dual diagnosis of two of today's industrial age stress epidemic related diseases. after losing everything including my family and my home. Thank you for suggesting therapy. Not surprisingly you are exactly right. Thankfully, I am court ordered to receive excellent medical attention for my own good. I apologize for being abrasive. But I do feel like there is a fight I need to be fighting in some way because I once had a glorious life. There has got to be a positive spin I can discover that makes sense and resolves a solution. Anyone who might be in the same boat. Jobless with subsequent broken nervous system please message me privately if you need help pointing you to the right medical attention.
Otherwise it is humiliating to suffer crippling depression after losing ones job. And I have found that there is a huge misconception that clinical depression just means that your are sad or has anything to do with a choice. When the only choices I have are to take my medication. make my doctor appointments. suffer. And participate positively in therapy. In which case, I refuse to be ashamed.
From what I briefly read. Which isn't much. But it really sounds like what you want is tenure. Which is probably the worst part of unionization as it keeps people employed who should not be.
Though medical problems obviously suck and I hope you find something that will make you happy. Unionization of the games industry will not solve your problems though.
It's ironic how a whole entertainement industry is build on artists that have poor job security and the worst pay in the business. Take comic book artists for exemple , hundreds of people live of their work but it is the artist that struggles to make a living, here in France the comic book industry is worth billions but most of the artists barely make minimum wage.
I feel some kind of union could be very beneficial, it would force companies to apply certain standards (healthcare, decent wages, paid overtime ect...) and artists may have the same benefits as every other poor asshole.
It's not a matter of good or bad artist, does a bad secretary deserve less health care then a good plane pilot?
The artists are the clay, the backbone that hold everything together, yet they are purposely kept docile and scared through poor job security, lower pay, high competition ect by the guys in suits who make the big bucks.
Replies
This makes a lot of sense. You come across much more well versed (read: intelligent) than most who use the arguments you've presented. I would definitely attribute that logic to your stance.
I salute you good sir!
I'll just leave this here.
http://kotaku.com/5876174/bodycount-developer-details-unlawful-working-conditions-codemasters-responds
http://jheriko-rtw.blogspot.com/
Working past 10PM? FUCK OFF!
You are absolutely right .. and on so many levels. I've always found that once I discuss the strengths of unionization, the only counter arguments that are presented are ones of fear or mistrust. Its difficult to argue against the focusing of leverage to create workplace equity.
Your point of "Doing for one's self" fits nicely with the need for unionization in situations where employers are taking advantage of the lack of a collective contract. Unions would never want to keep you from achieving in the field based on merit. All unions try to do is establish minimums and standards that are mutually agreed to be beneficial.
If they started at noon that's a 10 hour day, if you take a lunch it's a 9 hour day.
Very good point. Since the [START] row is above 12:00, and the rows seem to indicate a 2 hour jump, I would guess the start time at the studio is 10:am. Working 10:am to 10:pm is a 12 hour day. If there is a lunch break of 1 hour that is a true "break", that would leave 11 hours.
Now, is the studio working the artists on a 10hr day schedule? Have they built OT into that 10 hour day? Are the artists asked to work flat rates and not being paid OT or given a meal break? All good questions.
However, history shows that rarely are the proprietors of "indie" studios happy to be the small, mom & pop shop that cranks out the music videos, commercials and occasional pick-up work on episodics.
(apologies for the vfx-centric references, its the world I hail from)
Certainly, if artists are interested in starting up their own shop and pursuing the independent creators route, I wish them all the best for success. It doesn't take away the need for unionization or the reasons why unions are important.
I think I'm more interested in a change of mentality from the idea that large employers hold all the cards (making unions necessary), to one where there is a balance between competitive independent-skilled work and the large companies. Independent work is incredibly feasible in this industry, and unlike many other industries, budget does not directly correlated to quality or marketability (a larger budget isn't going to make the corporate art shop 'out art' the mom and pop art store into ruin).
In this industry the employer should have to think 'I have to provide a better option than independent work is for my employees', which doesn't happen because in the current industry and mindset that isn't saying much. The primary solution above unions in my mind is to make this happen, make independent work the competitive option it should be.
While I'll never argue against independent artists working to create and market their art, I would argue that budgets are a deciding factor in a lot of the art field. Your statements are broad enough to keep specific arguments from being made. In the visual effects, and I assume game, industries, budgets tend to be the deciding factor when it comes to scope of the product.
For employers to think: I believe employers have to stop caring about profits first. That's not to say there aren't studios that put artists considerations high on a priority list. But, those studios are few and far between.
http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/19/damning-evidence-emerges-in-google-apple-no-poach-antitrust-lawsuit/
Surely everyone realises, its not a matter of if a company abuses there power its a matter of when.
On the other hand I have come to the conclusion that our community simply deserves to be fucked over. Whether it be selfish paranoia, lazy ennui or just plain stupidity! To many years have now past by and to many members of your community have been fucked over now. It's like witnessing a bar fight where the guy who is getting his face pummeled keeps getting picked on by the same bully. To the point where you can no longer feel sorry for the guy. And are in fact disgusted by his tears and screams. In fact a better analogy would be if the guy was your brother in law. Someone who's unwillingness to defend himself becomes insulting because it involves your own loved ones interests.
I normally do not subscribe to tough love because it always stinks of negativity disguised to hide one's own guilt over the burden one has to suffer for a loved one and thus an selfish escape. But I figure at some point when you are losing something precious to you, out of desperation you HAVE TO AT LEAST GIVE IT A TRY?
Maybe not now?
But at what point can we just say to ourselves cowered in corner of the bar getting urinated on, "I do not give a fuck that you lost your job in such an unfair way! We decide on this golden shower year after year. We don't have each others back! Just kind words u can try to use on your soon to be ex-wife and mortgage. Here's some words of encouragement, wear lipstick to your next job and go fuck yourself!"
Have a nice day losers!
I hope I have to eat all my words.
I don't think things are right as they are, nor do I think when we got a shark problem we need more sharks to fight the other sharks
The opportunities for artists, especially game artists, have never been better.
There are fewer AAA game jobs available than ten years ago, but that loss is far outweighed by the gains in mobile, indies and self-employment.
The free or inexpensive tools we have available are powerful and liberating.
This is the start of a golden age for artists.
If you want a union you need to be willing to bring production to a halt, that is the only way a union works. If you have no way of actually forcing production to halt with no way of stopping the production from moving and bypassing the strike you have nothing.
All that said I don't honestly believe conditions in the game industry are bad enough to motivate people into the kind of radical and very illegal action that would be required to get a union to be taken seriously. Workers in the industrial revolution had guns pointed at them, and some even died to enforce a picket. Are things bad enough for you that you are willng to die or risk arrest and felony convictions? I'm gong to guess the answer is no, and management knows it.
come to think of it. despite woe this year at crytek. I intuitively feel this GOOD karma. I think between major depressive mood disorder and drug addiction it's way to late for me. But before the stuff in my blood kills me I'd like to see my heroes respected and feared.
after admitting to suffering dual diagnosis of two of today's industrial age stress epidemic related diseases. after losing everything including my family and my home. Thank you for suggesting therapy. Not surprisingly you are exactly right. Thankfully, I am court ordered to receive excellent medical attention for my own good. I apologize for being abrasive. But I do feel like there is a fight I need to be fighting in some way because I once had a glorious life. There has got to be a positive spin I can discover that makes sense and resolves a solution. Anyone who might be in the same boat. Jobless with subsequent broken nervous system please message me privately if you need help pointing you to the right medical attention.
Otherwise it is humiliating to suffer crippling depression after losing ones job. And I have found that there is a huge misconception that clinical depression just means that your are sad or has anything to do with a choice. When the only choices I have are to take my medication. make my doctor appointments. suffer. And participate positively in therapy. In which case, I refuse to be ashamed.
Though medical problems obviously suck and I hope you find something that will make you happy. Unionization of the games industry will not solve your problems though.
I feel some kind of union could be very beneficial, it would force companies to apply certain standards (healthcare, decent wages, paid overtime ect...) and artists may have the same benefits as every other poor asshole.
It's not a matter of good or bad artist, does a bad secretary deserve less health care then a good plane pilot?
The artists are the clay, the backbone that hold everything together, yet they are purposely kept docile and scared through poor job security, lower pay, high competition ect by the guys in suits who make the big bucks.