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How often do you use Zbrush as an Environment or prop artist?

polycounter lvl 7
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danjohncox polycounter lvl 7
This poll is for Professional Environment artists only please. I'm a college instructor and want to get a better gauge for how often other environment artists use zbrush during a project.

The studio's I've been to don't have heavy zbrush work most of the time. It's often occasional zbrush work and about 80% of the environment artist's work isnt using zbrush. This is a similar trend for other folks I've talked to and I just want to see whether that is a consistent trend or just a fluke.

To clarify, this is not judging the merits of Zbrush, at this point I think we're all aware the benefits of it. I just wanna how often other artist in other studios are using it.

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  • [HP]
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    [HP] polycounter lvl 13
    Mmmm, It's going to depend on the studio and it's workflows.

    Naughty Dog's texture artists for instance use it all the time for their textures. And i'm sure that peeps at epic do to.

    So without these exceptions, I would take a guess here and asume that ZB or MB usage is not more than ocasional for both env / prop artists.
    Sometimes it can be really handy and help, others it may just be a waste of time, it really depends.
  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 13
    I spent the past 4 years not using it, as I was doing sci-fi hard surface guns and robots for a third person shooter without the ridiculous level of stylized damage that Gears of War has. I would rarely use it for specific objects but in general most of the stuff I was making was metal, plastic, etc.

    Now I'm doing more environment stuff and the weapons and such I'm doing both require a higher fidelity due to targets and are allowing me more resources to devote to them, so I'm finding zbrush creeping into a lot of the things I do.

    Additionally, the hard surface tools have really taken off and I'm eager to learn to do more hard surface stuff in zBrush.

    There is really no excuse for an artist at this point to not know how to use it, as the hard surface tools improve it will only become more useful, and while there will always be a place for subD modeling, it is going to be an essential skill.
  • timwiese
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    timwiese polycounter lvl 9
    It's essential to know it, but for me I use it on probably 30% of the stuff I do so there are times when when I come back to it after a couple weeks off from using it and I spend a few minutes getting my speed back up again.

    It all just comes down to what way is faster and will yeild better results for the task you're working on. Sometimes the process of sculpting on something in zbrush isn't worth the effort if the details will never be seen (or your texture resolution is too low to pick them up).
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    It really depends on the artist and studio.

    Some use it all the time, other never.
  • danjohncox
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    danjohncox polycounter lvl 7
    So without these exceptions, I would take a guess here and asume that ZB or MB usage is not more than ocasional for both env / prop artists.
    Sometimes it can be really handy and help, others it may just be a waste of time, it really depends.

    HP: thats kinda what i figured too. just wanted some metrics to support that idea.
    Now I'm doing more environment stuff and the weapons and such I'm doing both require a higher fidelity due to targets and are allowing me more resources to devote to them, so I'm finding zbrush creeping into a lot of the things I do.

    Ghostscape: that sums up my experience with it entirely. When more time and resources are available in both time and computing power, zbrush gets more use. Which makes me wonder how it'll integrate into the next generation on consoles. Maybe much more due to having more system resources for the maps you create with it (ei, more unique textures)?

    timwiese: i find that a lot too.

    Ace-Angel: agreed, hopefully folks from both ends of the spectrum get some responses in too. I'd like to get a better idea just how many studio's are heavy users.

    For any heavy users of zbrush, what kind of project is it (if you can say). I'm wondering how much the art style will affect usage. Darksiders used it to get the great bold shapes that are hard to create in photoshop. But stuff like call of duty doesn't seem to make heavy use of it possibly due to "realism". Are you folks are heavy zbrush users and also making highly realistic games in a modern setting? Or does zbrush end up on other style projects more often?
  • searlee
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    searlee polycounter lvl 12
    At the moment I don't even have it installed on my work machine... I have used it in the past however. since we have to make "next gen" games in just over a year per project (on average) we don't have time to sit around and sculpt. I'm using Mudbox and zbrush at home but not at work.

    I've just finished making Goldeneye 007 Reloaded, which we made in just under a year without using zbrush at all, saying that it's not the best looking game and was in the most part rushed to comply with publisher deadlines.
  • EarthQuake
    I do a lot of hard surface mechanical modeling, sub-d stuff in modo. I rarely use a sculpting app.

    In the past I was doing more general environment assets, and I used Mudbox a good deal more, but not so much these days.
  • Autocon
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    Autocon polycounter lvl 15
    Like [HP] said our texture artists here at Naughty Dog zBrush all the time. Where as an environment artist I never use it, they wont even give us zBrush licenses to mess around with :/ Lol cheap bastards.


    As others have stated, it depends on the studio and there work flow.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I've only worked on MMOs and I've always assumed you get more time per asset in other game genres. So I've typically only had enough time to crazybump or NDO my normals with the occasional zbrush pass on particularly unique bits.
  • sprunghunt
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    sprunghunt polycounter
    I've only worked on MMOs and I've always assumed you get more time per asset in other game genres. So I've typically only had enough time to crazybump or NDO my normals with the occasional zbrush pass on particularly unique bits.

    I'm curious how long you get per asset? Looking at a MMO like WOW and comparing that to Halo I wouldn't say there's fewer assets in Halo since WOW repeats a lot of things.

    I've used zbrush/mudbox on things because it's better. Typically hand painting a normalmap seems to take about the same amount of time as sculpting. And you just can't get the same quality.
  • danjohncox
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    danjohncox polycounter lvl 7
    I think it speaks to the "depends on the studio" idea that the never and most of the time groups keep evening out with the rarely and never groups.

    searlee: yeah it seems once time is heavily limited, zbrush seems to become no longer an option.

    Autocon: I'm super suprised that the environment team at Naughty doesnt get zbrush at all! So your asset pipeline generally works around tiling textures then? Do you guys have seperate prop artists who have access to zbrush then? or do the texture folks work on the zbrush pass for those too?

    sprunghunt: I totally agree, for broad shapes nothing currently beats a good zbrush model.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    sprunghunt wrote: »
    I'm curious how long you get per asset? Looking at a MMO like WOW and comparing that to Halo I wouldn't say there's fewer assets in Halo since WOW repeats a lot of things.

    You'd be surprised - someone at Mythic did an asset count comparison between Warhammer Online and GOW - I don't recall the number but we produced alot, maybe 2-3 times the assets? Then again, we didn't have to deal with normal maps. Not knocking Epic's stuff, the amount of time they spend on each asset really pays off!

    Everything I've worked on since then is still under NDA :P
  • thinkinmonkey
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    thinkinmonkey polycounter lvl 15
    Autocon wrote: »
    Like [HP] said our texture artists here at Naughty Dog zBrush all the time.

    Sorry for the intrusion, I'd like to know this: if your texture artists use ZBrush for texturing, I suppose the assets have a good polygon density in order to be well painted, right?
    Are you modeling assets with that in mind?
    Or texturing artists will divide meshes according their needs?
    Thanks in advance
  • Rick_D
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    Rick_D polycounter lvl 12
    i also find the ND workflow to be weird, doesn't it frustrate you that you don't get to see your work through to the end? isn't it a little arrogant to presume that a modeler cannot texture?
  • Nielsen
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    Nielsen polycounter lvl 8
    My apologies I was a bit quick with the poll heh, deduct 1 on "rarely"
  • sprunghunt
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    sprunghunt polycounter
    Sorry for the intrusion, I'd like to know this: if your texture artists use ZBrush for texturing, I suppose the assets have a good polygon density in order to be well painted, right?
    Are you modeling assets with that in mind?
    Or texturing artists will divide meshes according their needs?
    Thanks in advance

    they use zbrush to create tiling textures.

    here's some examples:
    http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?79141-Uncharted-2-Among-Thieves-art-work/page5

    it does seem like a fairly different way to do things compared to other studios but it seems to work well.
  • thinkinmonkey
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    thinkinmonkey polycounter lvl 15
    Ah, ok, thanks, Sprunghunt
  • timwiese
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    timwiese polycounter lvl 9
    About the different times per asset depending on the game genre; having worked on an MMO, FPS and a last gen 3rd person platform game. The genre really doesn't dictate the time you spend on a asset, it really all comes down to how big and prominent it's going to be on screen, how quick the art approval process is, the art style, and the system specs you're shooting for.
    I don't find less time working on an MMO to use Zbrush, you just have to become fast enough with it that it's not a time sink in your work flow. Also I've used it enough at this point that I have a library built up of objects that can be reused in all sorts of assets, so it makes the process go pretty quick.
  • maze
    Rick_D wrote: »
    i also find the ND workflow to be weird, doesn't it frustrate you that you don't get to see your work through to the end? isn't it a little arrogant to presume that a modeler cannot texture?

    Not all modelers are good at texturing and not all texture people are good at modeling. Sure many are in both areas. And texturing has also a lot to do with shading/lighting department as well.
  • eyo
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    eyo polycounter lvl 9
    I try and use it as much as possible, though it is always battle over the time VS quality of the output sorta equation. When used to create flat/tiling textures it is definitely a great way to work, many times negating the need to render normals or Ao. I am hoping to leverage it's new dynamesh feature for quick retopos so I am can just get down to the sculpting.
  • WetWired
    With the projects I've worked on we've never had the time or budget to use zbrush\mudbox I really wish we did though as it's something I want to learn, mainly for texturing rather than full model sculpting and unwrapping.
  • Entity
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    Entity polycounter lvl 18
    All the time, even when doing mechanical/hard surface props I tend to bring them in to Zbrush for some dents and irregularities. Of course, I have the luxury of time..I can imagine those under a tight deadline might be better served with something like crazybump or ndo.
  • Autocon
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    Autocon polycounter lvl 15
    Im sure I will be answering these questions a lot more once we can post some work for Uncharted 3 as I know a lot of people are curious about the work flow since it is quite different from most studios. But I will answer some of them quickly and more in depth later when work is posted and screen shots can make things clearer :)



    The Environment Team is broken up into two groups, and Environment Artist and a Texture Artist.

    Environment Artists models the entire scene, assembles and places all assets, works with the designers for flow of the level, the puzzles, collision, frame rate and all that technical jazz.

    Texture Artists create textures that they then use to make shaders which they apply to models that they unwrap. They also vert paint everything for things like blending and such. They use zbrush for great sculpts and textures that are made are tiling type textures.

    We also have Prop artists who focus more on unique mapped items that require zbrush/HP stuff.



    As a Environment Artist no I never concern myself with even poly distribution for sculpting as we dont do that. I create models the most efficient way I can for our engine and that have the best ascetic look to the and my Texture Artist creates tiling textures for those assets. You dont need to sculpt a rock if you are just using a tiling texture :)

    The reasons this is done has nothing to do with modelers not being good texture artists or texture artists not being able to model as they are fine with people switching from one to the other at the end of the project. The reason for it is, if you have 1 person only focusing on the creation of textures and shaders all day they will be the absolute best at that job.

    They focus all there time making textures, learning tips and tricks and work arounds to get the absolute best results out of our tech. They don't have to worry about modeling, assembling the scene, worry about frame rate and design hurdles, they focus on making the best textures and shaders possible.



    Texture artists and Environment artists have an extremely close relationship since there is 1 texture artist and 1 environment artist for an entire "look" of the game. Example, the main level I worked on takes place in the desert with rocks. Its quite a big level, at a normal studio multiple people would have worked on it based on what I know about other studios/experience. But every asset was created and placed by myself, and all shaders and blending were done by my texture artist. We fully own the entire level and look and got to create every aspect of it. It gives the levels a great sense of cohesion and the artists a real ownership of the levels they worked on.

    It has its pro's and con's like other work flows where you make the textures for your models. I enjoy both methods but this is what we do here. :)
  • PredatorGSR
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    PredatorGSR polycounter lvl 14
    At Vigil on DS2 we use it to make most of our assets. As an environment artist, I take on a lot of roles such as world building, kitbashing, and building modular sets in addition to creating sculpted assets. So when I make assets, I almost always use zbrush, but the majority of my time is spent doing the rest of the stuff which makes of the bulk of the environment work.
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