Wall climb w/ help -- Animation
polycounter lvl 8
Alright, moving onto my next animation for my demo reel!
This time I'm having two bipdes interact--one will be running up and climbing over the wall, the other will be there to help the first guy. The biggest challenge I need to overcome is having the two characters interact believably, with shifting of weight and all that jazz.
First upate!
...is crap. Really, I just need to know if I'm heading in the right direction. I would love critique on overall timing and pacing, the posing, and what you think I need to keep in mind as I go foreward with this animation. Any of that would be awesome!!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh9NF2jlcfY"]Wall climb with help Animation --WIP 01 - YouTube[/ame]
I also know the run is gonna need a lot more love. I think the biggest issue with it is the movement of the torso, but I know there's more that's off. If anyone can help me out with what they see off, that'd be great!
Thanks for any and all comments!
This time I'm having two bipdes interact--one will be running up and climbing over the wall, the other will be there to help the first guy. The biggest challenge I need to overcome is having the two characters interact believably, with shifting of weight and all that jazz.
First upate!
...is crap. Really, I just need to know if I'm heading in the right direction. I would love critique on overall timing and pacing, the posing, and what you think I need to keep in mind as I go foreward with this animation. Any of that would be awesome!!
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh9NF2jlcfY"]Wall climb with help Animation --WIP 01 - YouTube[/ame]I also know the run is gonna need a lot more love. I think the biggest issue with it is the movement of the torso, but I know there's more that's off. If anyone can help me out with what they see off, that'd be great!
Thanks for any and all comments!
Replies
Good luck!
It also looks weird that the support guy is just being stepped on. He's there presumably to give a boost, so the whole action doesnt read right unless you get him to actually use his hands to boost the other guy.
Ideally, the second guy should look like he's actually boosting the runner up, so he needs to look like he's slowly shifting momentum (imagine he's tossing a heavy weight over the wall).
So shift the timing of the runner. Add some slowing as he gets to the wall and sync up the foot plant with the support guy as your first step.
I like the staging and the general feel of the quirky running guy. (That's what I could tell from the run)
So your problem here is the general story pacing. It's too even right now. Some more holds and stuff and you're on your way. And the jump could need some extra air time.
Keep rocking it!
I agree with this. What you could do is have the jumping character take some time before making the jump. While getting a grip on the wall it could struggle a bit before managing to get up.
So run(quick) - pre-jump with the help of the other guy(slow) - jump(quick) - climb over wall(slow)
Spudnik -- Yeah, the helper reaches out with his hands to help the jumper, then is surprised by having his back jumped on instead. I agree it definitely needs work, I don't think it's clear enough yet either.
disanski -- Thanks a lot! Yeah, the timing and the weight definitely needs work, most of the animation has just been posed in so far.
As for the reference, I'm using Parkour wall-climb/run tutorials.
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The helper I don't have quite as useful reference, but I partly referenced this: [ame="
slipsius -- Thanks for the suggestions for showing weight in the jumper! As for the helper, all I've done is toss in his basic poses, so I'll be adding a bit more to him later.
keres -- Thanks! I'll check out to see if I can find any vids on Splinter Cell: Conviction.
zoombapup -- Thanks, some great advice!!
As for the helper--I actually thought pretty long and hard about either giving him the hand boost up, or having the climber step unnexpectedly off his back. The boost with the hands would have been straightforward and work, but I decided I WANTED it to be more intersting/funny with the guy using his back instead. I am planning to add in some more pacing and work on the weight so this will become more clear/work out. Hopefully I can make my plan work!
Cexar -- Hey, thanks a lot! The running guy... I think I don't know what I'm doing with him lol. He wasn't supposed to look so quirky, my run cycle has just gotten weird, haha. (I think I got confused somewhere between the reference, to my thumbnails, to the posing...) I'm gonna have to tweak it a fair bit. I'll definitely work on the pacing and jump, thanks!!
Goraaz -- I'm trying to not have a very noticeable break in the flow from him running to jumping up the wall, ala the reference I posted above. From what I see in it, his pace only barely changes, so he doesn't lose the momentum. But I'll definitely take into account your suggestions to change up the pacing, thanks!
I don't have an update yet, so I'll just post my thumbnail sketches instead :P (I will be thoroughly impressed by anyone that can decipher these!):
The main jumper (the middle poses redrawn on the second page).
And the helper poses.
Thanks again for all the replies, next update coming soon!!!
Anyway, smallish update based on comments I was given! Changed some of the timing around, smoothed out a few areas (still a lot to go!!), and tried to vary the pacing more. I did NOT touch the animation on the helper biped, so don't worry about critiquing him!
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Any comments and critique is appreciated!!
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I fiddled with the run cycle a fair bit, adjusted some timing, and tried to add some more weight into the climb up. Also smoothed some areas out in general. Once again, I did NOT touch the helper, so don't worry about him!
All comments and critique is appreciated!!
Also, a question: When I set up my camera angle this way, the lighting suddenly looks a lot darker in the scene--even though I don't have any light sources, just the default 3DSmax light settings. Any way I can simply brighten up the scene? I tried fiddling with throwing in a light source and it did NOT go well. I was never good at this lighthing thing... Answers would be amazing, thanks!
I like your sketches
He has no stability, and in the scenario of jumping that wall, would be a detriment, not an aid.
What I'm talking about, is he has no grounding, and when the running uses him as a spring board, he's collapsing, his hands must be on the ground before the guy jumps on him, not after. All that's happening is the guy is moving down, compromising footing of the runner.
Think of it as jumping onto a wooden crate, and when you jump on it, it collapses, you're not going to go up, you're going to lose your balance, and the forward momentum is going to drive you into the wall.
Stability, firm footing and position, is important to whoever is giving
the boost.
In the video you have of the guy jumping off the others back, he's has firm footing, he has his weight on his front foot, ready for the the weight on his back. He's giving a firm platform for the other to use as a board.
In the below, the soldiers give a boost using their hands and shoulders as the platforms for the jumpers to use. But it's entirely dependant on the stability of the foot and back.
You can either be a static support, or you can be a positive support. Static just standing there, crouched and letting him use use as a firm stepping point, that doesn't go up or down.
Or positive, in that you can give added upward momentum to the jumper. The standing stirrup, they run, put their foot into your hands, and you shove them upwards while they push down. But you still move your hands up. You don't collapse.
You can do the same with the crouch position, hands and knees firmly on the ground, so you don't collapse under the pressure, and when he steps on, you can thrust up with your back, to the aid of the jumper
I think you should raise the height of the wall, have the guy jump up and grab onto the ledge, but slam into the wall with his body. dont put his legs up first. then have him pull himself up while using legs.
Maybe the bigger issue is that what you are trying to animate is simply physically wrong and you'll never actually get it to animate convincingly (although you could do a crouching tiger style thing on it).
Either way, you have to look at what you are trying to achieve and consider how the energy of the runner would ever get them up and over the wall. Until you can figure out how the energy of the movement transfers, you wont get it. Which limbs provide the energy, what is their line of action? How do they store up the energy and achieve the momentum they need?
You basically need to sort the forces out first. I'd be tempted to try it with a simple squashy ball first. Work out how the compression/expansion and timing worked from that.
The only reason I had the camera movement is because I was worried the scene seemed too small/distant, and I thought focusing the camera on where the action was would be a good idea. Since no one was feeling it, I'm happy to ditch it! :P
As for the bigger problem of jumping off the helper... I've taken into consideration what everyone has said, but I must admit, I can be ridiculously stubborn. While I understand the logic that you guys are all pointing out with the loss of momentum from jumping off the unstable helper, I'm feeling quite stubborn about wanting to do it this way. As such, I thought it through again and came up with a different way to go about it. I've changed the pose of the helper a bit, and now he moves in the OPPOSITE direction when stepped on. I feel like it looks better already this way, but I really want to know what you guys think. If I need to, I'll ditch this plan, but I really want to stubbornly make it work :P
This is kinda a smaller, rough update, but I want everyone's input before I smooth it out:
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Please keep the feedback coming, it's been great so far!
I thought I'd point out what I noticed, so here it goes:
The helper character does the following:
He waves and in the motion goes very slowly to his ready position.
If i was to be in place of the character i would definitely get quickly ready so that i wont hurt myself when the other guy jumps of my back or hands.
What I mean:
Maybe make him wave the jumper to him and THEN quickly get into the ready pose. The movement is a little unclear, because its a mix of kneeling and getting ready and waving to the character.
When he pushes the jumper up, the movement is a little too snappy, maybe slow it down a little. Just a little.
If, like you said, you really want the jumper to step on his back, maybe make the jumper lose balance a little, for instance, when he grabs the top part of the wall, his right foot slips and stabilizes himself with the left or something like that.. Lose balance, not in the clumsy way, but more or less as a consequence for jumping off of a person's back that didnt see said action coming.
I hope that helped a little!
But very good progress so far Mezz! I like the jumping/climbing dude's animation, can't wait to see it all smoothed out!
I agree with what Mialx is saying above. Also I was just thinking how would I do this if I was the helper and what I would do is to wave the other guy and then prepare. Doing so I would be looking at my hands to make sure I am doing ti right
Great progress Mezz
MiAlx -- Good points about the helper, I agree! I forgot to add the disclaimer in the latest update that he is still only blocked in--I haven't added in his breakdowns and whatnot yet. I'll also continue to fiddle with the timing on the jump off the back, and I might try the loss of balance like you mentioned as well. Thanks!
disanski -- Yeah, I definitely feel better about trying to make what I want to work, work, than ditching it and going for the easier route.
I also agree with what you suggested for the helper--I have that planned out in my videoed reference, I just have been more focused on the jumper and the point of contact I haven't gotten to that yet! All in good time
slipsius -- Good suggestions! I wasn't sure how fast I wanted it, but I didn't like how slow the last version had gotten. I'll try to slow it a bit, and have more bounce back with the helper.
Mithdia -- The jumper isn't landing on the shoulder, he's landing closer to the middle of the upper back. I don't suppose it'll feel great for him, but I don't believe it would dislocate his shoulder. I'm also working on making it clearer that he's not kicking the helper in the head. I'll work on clarifying all this for the next version.
Alright, back to the grind! Thanks again for the comments!
I've redone all the placeholder posing I had on the helper. All the poses have been changed up, and there's more of them in there. I think the helper is gonna need QUITE the bit of smoothing out, but lemme know if you guys like the new direction with the helper's posing and how it works with the jumper jumping off him.
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Thanks for all comments!
So the helper has two things I can point out right of the bat. First) The step on his back should first push him downwards (because the runners is jumping up) then spring backwards.
Secondly) The pose where the helper falls back could be asymmetrical. Because right now he's twinning pretty and that really bums me out.
Oh and third) Fix the runners gravity in the ending, add like 3 frames or w/e. Seems like a friggin' vortex back there.
Keep rocking it!
Once again, very good progress!
So, this is what I noticed in your update and here is my advice atm:
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The Helper
When the Jumper lands on his back, the back should go down, then up.
You see, the jumper's weight on the back of the helper makes him "collapse" and then go up, it looks a bit weightless atm.
The Helpers extended hands, should go up and down a bit, since atm they look very stiff. Extend your arms in that pose, you will quickly notice that you cant hold your hands on the exact same spot; Maybe let them "idle" for a bit.
His head looks left to the oncoming jumper, looks right and then left again.
Maybe making him look at the jumper the whole time and then look down to his hands might give a more natural feeling to it.
If you wanted him to make a quick "check look" on his hands' position, make him look down to the hands in a clear way (actually looking at his hands), so that it's obvious.
You have some twinning going on, maybe break the poses with offsets to make it look more natural, nothing happens simultaneously in nature
Maybe play with some follow through on his arms and shoulders when the jumpers sets off of the helper!
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But like i said before, you are making great progress! Keep it up!
Thumbs up for staying at it so patiently, you have improved tons on this animation by now!
edit: ah Cexar beat me to it, damn my slow writing
the jumper is pretty good though. nice improvements.
I think the nature of the jump on the other guy simply isnt going to work. As it is, the energy involved would just not work, mechanically the transfer of energy from the runner into the support guy would just bleed off too much and wouldnt do it unless the support is more of a solid platform (braces themselves) or actually provides energy themselves (which is why support guys usually boost the other up with their legs etc).
Highly recommend doing a normal wall run first. Then at least you have the hang off wall and pop up and over part down. Get that to look right from your ref, then work backwards if you STILL want to figure out the support guy.
I saw you have verry little gravity interaction on both characters.
Gravity is the fundamental law ! so i sugest watching a parkour video, there are a few where they do this type of thing. and u can see how their body interacts with others, and how gravity comes into play ! just youtube parkour.
I still think the idea of surprise is a bit too hard to read for this particular motion. Maybe you should think about making it more about using the support guy without him being aware, rather than him being aware but being taken by surprise. Unless you make him brace his hands and somehow make the runner use his head instead (a bit like how you see jackie chan using a chair to move forward by standing on its back and rolling the pivot of the back legs of it).
You might also want to block in some timings as well. Get rid of the anims and just do key poses and then imagine the inbetweens to see if it reads right from simple timing perspective. Like make the keys fit in time and then work back.
Cexar -- Thanks for the suggestions! I've once again redone the helper, so not sure how much still applies, but I definitely need to keep not twinning too much in mind. No worries, I'm keeping at it!!
MiAlx -- Great suggestions, check out how I've overhauled him again and tell me what you think this time!
slipsius -- It is very possible you just saved this animation... Last night, when I read the suggestions to redo the helper once again after already spending hours redoing him, I raged for a bit, then realized, damnit, I think what he said might actually work really well. Now that I've changed it to your suggestion, I really hope you agree!!
zoombapup -- I watched as many clips as I could find of Shanghai Knights last night, but nothing with him jumping off anyone!
Robbyh -- Further down in my thread you'll find the youtube links to the Parkour vids I've been referencing. It's a good point though to always remember that we're constantly affected by gravity.
Alright, so here's the new update:
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As I mentioned above, I've redone all the posing on the helper (again ;_;). Therefore, please note: the helper's actions are very rough and I need to do a lot of smoothing out on him, but for now, I just really want to know if you guys think him being jumped off while he braces holding his head is working!!
Thanks so much for all the responses, keep them coming!!!
The timing could use some work, and you could even move the helper further away from the wall. the jumper really stretches his leg to get to him. so if you bring him closer, it will help with that. also, the helper could use a bit more impact when the jumper is on him. push his upper torso down further. only his upper body though. looks like his legs already go through the ground a bit when he jumps on him.
but ya. DEFINITELY on the right track again.
Smallishy update. Been working more on areas of polish here and there, including moving the helper away from the wall a bit more and adding a bit more impact on him when jumped on.
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All critique welcome as I move into the polish phase...!!
Another update. Chugging along. I sped up the run a bit, changed the helper's reaction after being jumped on, and worked more momentum into the jumper's wall climb. A few other polish fixes along the way.
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As always, comments and critique very welcome!!
Update time! I took into account some other advice I was given, and shortened part of the timing of the beginning part of the helper's anim. I also added some direction into him when being jumped on, so hopefully his fall over looks like it makes more sense. Also cleaned up his recovery and wave-in.
Possibly the biggest change is the momentum I tried to keep going as the jumper scales the wall, instead of pausing in previous versions. And, as mentioned, some work on the run.
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As always, please let me know what you guys think!!
Latest update has the ending where the jumper gets over the wall fixed up, and more tweaking on the helper's reaction.
I think I'm almost done with this one now... one way or another
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Thanks for looking!
With how subtle your updates are now, I would say its time to move on. You could spend weeks polishing this off, or, you can take all that you learned from this one, move on and make something even better in a fraction of the time. I find with animation, especially the early stages where you`re still learning, its usually better to move on. Your skill isn't where your ambition is yet, but you probably learned a crap load from this piece. apply it to something else
I think the main crit I'd have now is tha there isnt enough "pop" in parts of the motion. It might of course be the smoother look you're after, but I think the legs on the guy after he is hanging on the wall could pop a bit better (sharper faster movement). As it is he sort of slinks over the wall rather than pops over it.
But yeah, diminishing returns right now. Choose another scene and apply what you've learnt. keep practicing.
I'm certainly no artist myself, but I love to practice. Just hard to find the right method that really works for me (try doing artistic study from a programmers perspective its bloody hard!). So if you like doing these little scenes, its probably great practice. Now do something with a completely different feel and motion to it.
I strongly urge you to check out some books on biomechanics and the like (sports science books are good too). I tend to use those kind of things because they appeal to my programmer brain, but theyre good reference material for lines of motion and overall force in animation too. Things like leaping, throwing, reaching etc are all discussed in those.
Biomechanics, huh? That could be interesting... I'll have to get my hands on one and see if my brain can wrap itself around that. :P
Thanks a lot for checking back and continuing to comment on this piece!! It's really been a big help
Update (now in HD!):
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Final version:
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Now to move on to my next project...!