I'm not entirely sure it's possible because someone will always find something offensive in the depiction of the female form (in particular) if that's all they're looking for, hence the comments above (not suggesting they are bad examples by the way, rather just how easy it is to find fault when looked at devoid meaning and context).
Hmmm.... Trope hunt huh.... Hmmm... Should thinkk even deeper.... Hmmm
many of the comments above seems to suggest that sexism in the game industry and games isnt an issue. yet when anita sarkesian started doing her stuff, the kickstarter and all that, she got tons of hate.
also its pretty easy to see that the games industry is more imature than most others. imagine if something like the bechdel test was suggested regarding games. i dont think it would be met with any more acceptence than sarkesians first videos.
and, lastly, most of the time there is a female 3d character presented here on the forum, a lot of focus is put on the "sexiness". at best, she has other characteristics aswell. often not more than "elf, or mech".
some will say that this goes for male characters aswell. and sure. many of them seem to be focused on a idialized badytypes.
But, as so often stated, these are meant to be empowering to men. not meant as eyecandy for women.
maybe it would be possible to take those same characteristics that seem to be reserved for male chars, and use them on the female ones. when doing a mech armor, if the goal is to make it look mighty, do that no matter what sex the pilot in the mech has.
So you're saying that idealized male bodytypes are empowering to men, but idealized female bodytypes are derogatory to women?
personally i find the idea that all men should have that "perfect" musculature, body shape, heroic poise and leading attitude quite repugnant, it's certainly not a reflection of me and it pushes just as much negative self image on men as "sexy woman" does to women.
So you're saying that idealized male bodytypes are empowering to men, but idealized female bodytypes are derogatory to women?
but the irony is that an idealized female body type is not derogatory to anyone - people who try to defend women are actually pushing their own opinion that the female body isn't empowering onto others!
But it IS empowering!
A dried up old prune is not as strong as a woman with perfect hips, nice ample lips, and big round eyes. Just like a man with a concave chest and knock knees isn't going to be as strong as your superman body type.
Everyone enjoys a beautiful female. Straight men, straight women, gay women, gay men. Everyone loves the female body. For a reason.
The near-constant portrayal of idealized female bodies as the only ones worth something is profoundly psychologically damaging to everyone. Additionally, physical strength is a) not the most important characteristic of a character, b) does not require skimpy/revealing armor, c) has no bearing on most games*, and d) does not have a damn thing to do with "perfect hips, nice ample lips, and big round eyes." I honestly have no idea how anyone could think that it does.
Also, NOT everyone "loves the female body". Even if they did, it has no bearing on pretty much anything anyone has said on this subject.
* Example: A "dried up old prune", as you so charmingly mentioned, can fire a gun just as well as anyone else. But I've yet to see a shooter with one.
@stickadtroja: If you read the comments again, no-one is suggesting sexism is not an important issue of discussion. What is being said is that it affects both genders - if we want a proper, frank and mature discussion then we have to mean it and not ignore or dismiss points that don't fit or support a particular narrative (as you did in your last paragraph); the (mis)representation of men in media is just as much an issue as that of females - Conan (mentioned a few pages back) can be viewed as an equally negative trope for males as Princesses are for females; just because one is more politically radioactive doesn't necessarily make it more (or less) important. Trope hunters are gonna hunt.
* Example: A "dried up old prune", as you so charmingly mentioned, can fire a gun just as well as anyone else. But I've yet to see a shooter with one.
Damn. Give me a decently made shooter where the main character's a crack shot old lady and I'll give you $60. I don't care if her gun doubles as her cane, that sounds like fun.
The near-constant portrayal of idealized female bodies as the only ones worth something is profoundly psychologically damaging to everyone. Additionally, physical strength is a) not the most important characteristic of a character, b) does not require skimpy/revealing armor, c) has no bearing on most games*, and d) does not have a damn thing to do with "perfect hips, nice ample lips, and big round eyes." I honestly have no idea how anyone could think that it does.
Also, NOT everyone "loves the female body". Even if they did, it has no bearing on pretty much anything anyone has said on this subject.
* Example: A "dried up old prune", as you so charmingly mentioned, can fire a gun just as well as anyone else. But I've yet to see a shooter with one.
Okay guys here is what is really happening. We live in a time and society where we spend most of our time sitting on our asses. We don't have to run much anymore, or climb anything, or take 10 mile walks to the nearest well to get water.
Basically, the baseline for acceptable physical capability has plummeted substantially due to technology and conveniences. This is a great thing because it allows people's character and mental ability to come to the forefront more than it might have two thousand years ago where a man needed a strong arm, literally in order to defend his family.
Same goes with women. Without hospitals giving birth is much more perilous. And women with better equipment, better DNA, and general overall better health and fitness, are more likely to survive and have healthy children who survive.
You may say, "Oh that observation is demeaning". Look, our DNA does not presume that society is going to be intact tomorrow morning. It does not assume that law enforcement and courts and jurors are going to be available to deal with civil greivences tomorrow. This is why our DNA instructs our sensibilities to place great importance on others' genetic offerings that they might make available to us.
Many games place the main character in situations where the law is incapable of helping, where there is no hope other than the sweat off of your own brow. Desperate times, calls for supermen and superwomen.
I mean I much as you try to think it away, it's always going to be there. As long as people dream, they will dream of a perfect form for themselves and their society. Beauty is a tremendous part of that.
Girls look in the mirror and imagine THEMSELVES with bigger boobs and greater hip/waist ratios and longer hair and better teeth. What a guy can do is tell the girl he loves her just as she is. But that will not stop her from fantasizing on her own, of fetishizing her own image so that she may more appropriateing manipulate it to the whims of her own imagination.
Girls look in the mirror and imagine THEMSELVES with bigger boobs and greater hip/waist ratios and longer hair and better teeth. What a guy can do is tell the girl he loves her just as she is. But that will not stop her from fantasizing on her own, of fetishizing her own image so that she may more appropriateing manipulate it to the whims of her own imagination.
The obsession with the female form is universal.
Actually the key point here that everyone should take to heart is that no assumptions should be made about anyone.
And the heart of the problem in gaming is that we just permanently assume that players of a game will be male, this makes the whole gaming world very non-inclusive.
So you're saying that idealized male bodytypes are empowering to men, but idealized female bodytypes are derogatory to women?
personally i find the idea that all men should have that "perfect" musculature, body shape, heroic poise and leading attitude quite repugnant, it's certainly not a reflection of me and it pushes just as much negative self image on men as "sexy woman" does to women.
Edit: i get its kind of shitty posting links instead of arguing myself, but english is not my native language, and the first link is really quickly read.
Meaning I should be able to look at a character design and know what that characters story is somewhat.
How's that, exactly?
I loved the fact that when I looked at Cloud Strife for the first time I had NO idea how deep his story was actually going to go. Same with Tifa. And I know you can't look at Batman and guess what his story is if you've never heard of him before.
In fact I think it's sort of tacky if you can look at a character for the first time and size them all up, because if you can do that it means the character designer is forcing an impression on you rather than leading you with bread crumbs and asking for more, giving the audience the space to imagine for themselves until the story incrementally adds limitations to what the character can be viewed as.
The truth is that beauty in itself strikes us with awe leaving us with the impression that very beautiful people are somewhat mysterious or other worldly.
Which is a trait somewhat fitting for a heroic character who doesn't rely on others but uses their own strength instead.
I think it's ironic this is titled "False Equivalence" because that's what this comic is to me
I agree that that there's a difference between idealized attractive men and sexualized ones. Almost all male characters are conventially attractive, even sexually attractive to women, but they're rarely overtly sexualized.
But when I've talked to guys that get uncomfortable about overt male sexualization, the complaint is always rooted in some kind of sexual insecurity or homophobia. Yet when you ask feminists their problem is always with the sexualization itself.
I've seen men complain about feminists double standard over sexualization, I've even seen MRAs complain about male objectification in the sense that they're completely disposable and feed for the slaughter in games/movies. But I've never in my life met any man who was genuinely appalled by a sexualized portrayl of a man because he felt it was degrading and offensive
You can argue men don't have the same problem with sexualization because it's not as widespread, but you can't compare the reactions and try to pass them off as if they're the same thing
The flawless superman/woman character you seem to believe everyone wants is to me a shallow and uninteresting character and IMO we are a less mature art form for having only that representation as the vast majority of our heroes.
You're right a perfect character is boring because there wouldn't be any story for a perfect human. Characters have to have flaws and limitations or else they've already won because there is nothing left for them to strive for.
I wasn't intending to say people want to see perfect characters, I was trying to say they want to see characters strive for a better world. And in order to strive for a better world on your own strength, you pretty much have to be a super man/ super woman in some way or another.
Sherlock Holmes is a good example. He has intellectual prowess instead of physical prowess. How is that any less or more shallow than celebrating physical capability? I mean, one can't just choose to become Albert Einstein, it's genetic. And one's intellect has little to do with morality or empathy or maturity either.
And as any comic book fan can tell you, most super heroes have at least one really big flaw that they can't do anything to change. That difficulty makes their quest for a better world and better life an even more of a desperate struggle, which in turn demands even more resolve and strength in order to continue on.
"one's intellect has little to do with morality or empathy or maturity either."
Ok... I see what I'm dealing with here. I'll see myself out. Back to arting.
I spoke with you as respectfully as I could the entire time. I don't really know where this insult is coming from as I was enjoying myself with a civilized discussion, but I guess you were getting frustrated the entire time.
You may not have patience for people who you think are dumber than you or whatever, but I don't have any patience for disrespect so your move not to converse with me is in both of our interest.
It's been fun, but it's pretty evident that, even though this conversation NEEDS to happen on polycount, the participation in this thread isn't making any progress and we're seeing an exchanging some really freaky worldviews. We haven't heard from more than one or two real women this whole time. Goodnight everybody.
Replies
Hmmm.... Trope hunt huh.... Hmmm... Should thinkk even deeper.... Hmmm
also its pretty easy to see that the games industry is more imature than most others. imagine if something like the bechdel test was suggested regarding games. i dont think it would be met with any more acceptence than sarkesians first videos.
and, lastly, most of the time there is a female 3d character presented here on the forum, a lot of focus is put on the "sexiness". at best, she has other characteristics aswell. often not more than "elf, or mech".
some will say that this goes for male characters aswell. and sure. many of them seem to be focused on a idialized badytypes.
But, as so often stated, these are meant to be empowering to men. not meant as eyecandy for women.
maybe it would be possible to take those same characteristics that seem to be reserved for male chars, and use them on the female ones. when doing a mech armor, if the goal is to make it look mighty, do that no matter what sex the pilot in the mech has.
personally i find the idea that all men should have that "perfect" musculature, body shape, heroic poise and leading attitude quite repugnant, it's certainly not a reflection of me and it pushes just as much negative self image on men as "sexy woman" does to women.
but the irony is that an idealized female body type is not derogatory to anyone - people who try to defend women are actually pushing their own opinion that the female body isn't empowering onto others!
But it IS empowering!
A dried up old prune is not as strong as a woman with perfect hips, nice ample lips, and big round eyes. Just like a man with a concave chest and knock knees isn't going to be as strong as your superman body type.
Everyone enjoys a beautiful female. Straight men, straight women, gay women, gay men. Everyone loves the female body. For a reason.
Also, NOT everyone "loves the female body". Even if they did, it has no bearing on pretty much anything anyone has said on this subject.
* Example: A "dried up old prune", as you so charmingly mentioned, can fire a gun just as well as anyone else. But I've yet to see a shooter with one.
[ame="
Damn. Give me a decently made shooter where the main character's a crack shot old lady and I'll give you $60. I don't care if her gun doubles as her cane, that sounds like fun.
Okay guys here is what is really happening. We live in a time and society where we spend most of our time sitting on our asses. We don't have to run much anymore, or climb anything, or take 10 mile walks to the nearest well to get water.
Basically, the baseline for acceptable physical capability has plummeted substantially due to technology and conveniences. This is a great thing because it allows people's character and mental ability to come to the forefront more than it might have two thousand years ago where a man needed a strong arm, literally in order to defend his family.
Same goes with women. Without hospitals giving birth is much more perilous. And women with better equipment, better DNA, and general overall better health and fitness, are more likely to survive and have healthy children who survive.
You may say, "Oh that observation is demeaning". Look, our DNA does not presume that society is going to be intact tomorrow morning. It does not assume that law enforcement and courts and jurors are going to be available to deal with civil greivences tomorrow. This is why our DNA instructs our sensibilities to place great importance on others' genetic offerings that they might make available to us.
Many games place the main character in situations where the law is incapable of helping, where there is no hope other than the sweat off of your own brow. Desperate times, calls for supermen and superwomen.
I mean I much as you try to think it away, it's always going to be there. As long as people dream, they will dream of a perfect form for themselves and their society. Beauty is a tremendous part of that.
Girls look in the mirror and imagine THEMSELVES with bigger boobs and greater hip/waist ratios and longer hair and better teeth. What a guy can do is tell the girl he loves her just as she is. But that will not stop her from fantasizing on her own, of fetishizing her own image so that she may more appropriateing manipulate it to the whims of her own imagination.
The obsession with the female form is universal.
Actually the key point here that everyone should take to heart is that no assumptions should be made about anyone.
And the heart of the problem in gaming is that we just permanently assume that players of a game will be male, this makes the whole gaming world very non-inclusive.
idealized means that it strives towards an ideal. so what ideal are we talking about?
the ideal that caters to men of course. not to women.
heres some links that explain it better than i do:
http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/
and a longer more thorough article:
http://comicsbulletin.com/columns/2486/wheres-thebeef--the-myth-of-male-objectification-in-superhero-comics/
its regarding comics, but works just aswell for games.
Edit: i get its kind of shitty posting links instead of arguing myself, but english is not my native language, and the first link is really quickly read.
How's that, exactly?
I loved the fact that when I looked at Cloud Strife for the first time I had NO idea how deep his story was actually going to go. Same with Tifa. And I know you can't look at Batman and guess what his story is if you've never heard of him before.
In fact I think it's sort of tacky if you can look at a character for the first time and size them all up, because if you can do that it means the character designer is forcing an impression on you rather than leading you with bread crumbs and asking for more, giving the audience the space to imagine for themselves until the story incrementally adds limitations to what the character can be viewed as.
The truth is that beauty in itself strikes us with awe leaving us with the impression that very beautiful people are somewhat mysterious or other worldly.
Which is a trait somewhat fitting for a heroic character who doesn't rely on others but uses their own strength instead.
I think it's ironic this is titled "False Equivalence" because that's what this comic is to me
I agree that that there's a difference between idealized attractive men and sexualized ones. Almost all male characters are conventially attractive, even sexually attractive to women, but they're rarely overtly sexualized.
But when I've talked to guys that get uncomfortable about overt male sexualization, the complaint is always rooted in some kind of sexual insecurity or homophobia. Yet when you ask feminists their problem is always with the sexualization itself.
I've seen men complain about feminists double standard over sexualization, I've even seen MRAs complain about male objectification in the sense that they're completely disposable and feed for the slaughter in games/movies. But I've never in my life met any man who was genuinely appalled by a sexualized portrayl of a man because he felt it was degrading and offensive
You can argue men don't have the same problem with sexualization because it's not as widespread, but you can't compare the reactions and try to pass them off as if they're the same thing
You're right a perfect character is boring because there wouldn't be any story for a perfect human. Characters have to have flaws and limitations or else they've already won because there is nothing left for them to strive for.
I wasn't intending to say people want to see perfect characters, I was trying to say they want to see characters strive for a better world. And in order to strive for a better world on your own strength, you pretty much have to be a super man/ super woman in some way or another.
Sherlock Holmes is a good example. He has intellectual prowess instead of physical prowess. How is that any less or more shallow than celebrating physical capability? I mean, one can't just choose to become Albert Einstein, it's genetic. And one's intellect has little to do with morality or empathy or maturity either.
And as any comic book fan can tell you, most super heroes have at least one really big flaw that they can't do anything to change. That difficulty makes their quest for a better world and better life an even more of a desperate struggle, which in turn demands even more resolve and strength in order to continue on.
I spoke with you as respectfully as I could the entire time. I don't really know where this insult is coming from as I was enjoying myself with a civilized discussion, but I guess you were getting frustrated the entire time.
You may not have patience for people who you think are dumber than you or whatever, but I don't have any patience for disrespect so your move not to converse with me is in both of our interest.