How To Win
polycounter lvl 9
~ Over the last couple weeks? Maybe even months? There's been a few threads about the subject of finding it hard to be motivated about 3D. I know I used to hit brick walls when i was starting so I'll quickly touch on my experience of how I tackled the mountain of WIPs that never got finished because they sucked too much. Maybe it'll help someone out.
Diagrams for extra understanding:
For me personally it was soooo tempting to just start a newer BETTER model whenever I got bored of the one i was working on. Especially because it always looked wayyyyyy better in my head than it came out. Try not to keep restarting things all the time.
Instead think of the process more like:
Starting a model
Work your ass off on it
Get fucking tired of it -_____-
CONTINUE ANYWAY
Learn new shit
Finish That Bitch and post on POLYCOUNT!!!!!
Believe me if you keep starting over and over and never finishing anything you'll only create to a 10gb "WIP" folder, and an empty "Finished" folder. Pulling through and completing stuff was always where my real leveling up happened; and having a new complete model gets you happier than starting a fresh one!
I honestly don't think artists talk about the grit stage enough. The stage where your no longer super excited but you gotta keep your eye on the end goal. It's okay if it sucks. You're supposed to suck when you start out! Everybody sucks at first, but the level ups to free us from Suckville will come once we kill off lots of little critters. After that we can get to the Boss stages.
Also. I learned to not post online at every stage of my WIP. Otherwise I find myself hitting refresh, more than I'm snapping verts. Just post when you need crit, or there's a significant change. Otherwise your just chasing praise which is a bad habit. Feedback is good, meaningless praise is evil.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my perspective. This is how I see things, because this is what worked for me. Other people might have found special game art enhancing serum, or have a "Make My Shit Awesome" button.
Diagrams for extra understanding:
Instead think of the process more like:
Starting a model
Work your ass off on it
Get fucking tired of it -_____-
CONTINUE ANYWAY
Learn new shit
Finish That Bitch and post on POLYCOUNT!!!!!
Believe me if you keep starting over and over and never finishing anything you'll only create to a 10gb "WIP" folder, and an empty "Finished" folder. Pulling through and completing stuff was always where my real leveling up happened; and having a new complete model gets you happier than starting a fresh one!
I honestly don't think artists talk about the grit stage enough. The stage where your no longer super excited but you gotta keep your eye on the end goal. It's okay if it sucks. You're supposed to suck when you start out! Everybody sucks at first, but the level ups to free us from Suckville will come once we kill off lots of little critters. After that we can get to the Boss stages.
Also. I learned to not post online at every stage of my WIP. Otherwise I find myself hitting refresh, more than I'm snapping verts. Just post when you need crit, or there's a significant change. Otherwise your just chasing praise which is a bad habit. Feedback is good, meaningless praise is evil.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my perspective. This is how I see things, because this is what worked for me. Other people might have found special game art enhancing serum, or have a "Make My Shit Awesome" button.
Replies
Well done Dreamer. Reading it I can relate to at a point in my time starting out and even with the in between times of working after many years.
It's an interesting point about not posting every single step of the way for crits. That's what has got me hung up in the past, posting a tiny bit of progress, then waiting a day for some crits, and ending up spending a week fixing two verts til everybody in your thread gives you the OK.
Fixed.
At least this way when you hit one of those technical problems that can stall out your enthusiasm someone might be able to help you over the hump and get you back on track.
Indeed, we must don't forget that.
I spent more time drawing and concepting than modelling now. With my experience i learned that a fast concept done with pencil is enough to avoid procrastination (it can kill in an instant our stupid excitement). And as much, it may take 10 minutes or 1 hour. A 3d model err.... is too much time :poly122: days, weeks, months... it's stressful!.
If we fail at the concept/design stage, we will fail with the 3D, guranteed.
...Just wish it didnt take so damn long to finish stuff!!!!
Careful here though, I think it's important to distinguish 'functional' concept art with 'beautiful' concept art because if you get hung up on trying to make a concept look like a finished piece of art when you are not a great traditional artist, then it can be a blow to your confidence despite it not being greatly important to your role if you intend on becoming say a 3D artist. (making beautiful concept art I mean, not making 'functional' concept art, which is important for any artist).
Obviously a strong concept does not necessarily have to be a beautiful piece of art, I know some people (including myself in the past) have trouble making that distinction and when you spend too long working trying to make a concept look like art, and inevitably fail, the project can end before it's even really started due to frustration and disappointment because you couldn't draw a pretty picture.
lawl, but
+ 1
I think Pior just meant to make sure that the design itself is functional, not the art to describe the design. Cuz like Crazyfool said you can't polish a turd
In every of my pieces I can apply this motivation curve, but it's a lot more sinusoidal than exponential, I just have to keep variety in what I am doing, can't do castle walls for weeks or rocks, cars, or urban environments, etc...
Also I wanted to add that for beginners that have a very high pace of learning at the start, it's not bad at all to restart projects often.
~ For sure dude. I think Crazyfool is reiterating the same point about keeping solid design in mind. Seems like Rooster said it best when he said: So yeah, nothing wrong with quitting as soon as you see the concept is too flawed, and as long as it happens early.
I think this is really very true too also. Restarting often when your first beginning is important too, because you should be improving at a super fast rate anyway. I think my overall statement was more 'Don't turn restarting all the time into a habit that you keep forever as its not healthy in the long run'.
~ Nice to see some positive back and forth by the way. I think we could get more out of good thought processes with discussions, and help any that are struggling.
Lately I've been completing ol WIPs and I've found it helps me keep more momentum if I'm sticking to two pieces rather than one. I like bouncing between two so when I've squeezed so much effort into one, I can hop quickly onto the other feeling re-energized to be working on something different but still buckled down on two rather than starting something new. I also jitter the two up so when I'm completing one and starting something new, the other piece is about halfway done. Obviously a bit more chaotic than just sticking to one, but it feels like a nice balance between grinding thru one piece versus chaotically building a pile of half finished pieces.
Soooo good. Thanks man
Agreed, as well as with Dustins sentiments.
I learned a while back that there is no "make awesome art" button or shortcut. All it takes is some good old hard ass work.
I highly recommend reading the Gundam fan artbook "Hige Fix 2" by ChocolateShop. It is a visual case study and exploration centered around the idea of "fixing" the not-so-good TurnA Gundam design originally created by ... Syd Mead!
The central point of the book : an original design can never be good right from the start. If it sometimes feels that way, it's because what you are looking at is actually either a new iteration playing on a established set of rules, or something pulled straight from a solid existing "visual library". Syd Mead was out of his confort zone with that project, and it showed - being the absolute best at designing futuristic space lounges and transportation vehicules doesn't grant one at being badass at humanoid mechas.
So the artists featured in the book took the core elements of Mead's (heavily criticized) design and just made it work in their own ways, connecting it all to other visual trends in mecha design. This is maybe what would have happened if the series had been more accepted and given a chance...
Original :
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/turn-a/system-a-99.jpg
Fresh redesigns :
http://pireze.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/sheet-0023.jpg
I think this is the best artbook I have ever read - a real game changer for me, and a great motivation to work on concept art further.
Bottom line : if a design sucks (as it should at the beginning), then try to fix it! It might be the next big thing, so don't shoot down the idea too early!
(but again - don't 3D it up until it's ready!!)
I'm slowly learning to conquer this problem by doing a few of the things already said, good design direction and a lot planning is crucial for me. I learned the hard way that doing little preproduction will make your life a living hell. Slowly adapting to the 'just get it fucking done' attitude, as well just trying to remember that iteration is key.
I found writing lots of notes about whatever it is I'm working on or general ideas provides a bit more analytical clarity, helps to bust through the low slopes at times.
First of all, in order for me to stay on a project, it's important that I structure it correctly, so later on in the process I don't get frustated over bad folder hierachy or lack of proper name convention. Next, when I get an idea, I usually let it sit in my head for a while in order to hype myself up and also think it through. Generally if the idea stays in my head for more then 2-3 weeks, I know it's good enough to keep me interrested all the way.
Doesn't sound like you have a different approach at all.
Sounds like your elaborating and reiterating EXACTLY whats being said in fact. Taking time and approaching each idea calmly and with thought and planning so that you know you have the perseverance to see it all the way through without ditching and trying something else.
On a second read through, you're right. No idea how I saw the difference :<
My mistake.
Exactly.
also, when I used to do this I used to find that judging myself extremely hard would endues the lower slope of the chart... It is really pivotal to be your own critic but to the point where it drains the fun out of it. You learn a lot from finished work, so finish some! lol
Small tip:
When I'm working on a project and i get an idea for something new... i take a break and draw it out as much as i can in a small sketchbook. It helps to put the energy of that new idea somewhere to come back to when your fresh out of em.
but i'll try. i should rly finish my robot.
I think even if you start in 3d you can still apply the "fixing" rule when painting over in photoshop. Anyways whatever works best for each scenario. Same workflow might not work to all projects so I like variance.
If you wank more than you draw, you get better at wanking than you do drawing.
If you constantly restart projects you get really good at never finishing things, but you're probably a pro at starting something new.
You're going to suck at finishing projects until you finish a lot of them so dig in.
What helps me most is setting up little tasks at a time. So many distractions here and there when you think what still needs to be done overall etc.
As maze mentioned paintovers help a lot in those kind of dire situations...
I also recently went through my art folder, that really is a sad pile of unfinished WIPs.
I'll be giving another talk soon and it'll be on Motivation, so I'm browsing this thread and actually making notes. Thank you for you input. And thanks Dreamer for bringing this up, man. That's very nice of you and yep I very much agree. Loosing interest is only natural and happens to everyone, so you just work right through it!
I'm really interested in all this positive psychology thing and I hope to distill the lecture into some sort of paper sometime and run it be you guys.
Meanwhile just a little excerpt from what I'm working on - just a few tips on how not to squander your motivation. I hope you'll find it useful:
Hey, Pior, that's an amazing story and now I totally have to find that artbook. Thanks for sharing.
maybe I need to find a different studio to work at...
but, awesome thread!
One of my co-workers linked me this video - [ame]
But yeah, with that approach I really worry about the feedback stage. What if my design is horrible and I end up with a polished turd? I asked Schuman that and he said 'I think if you really took the initiative to push forward when stumped you’d find greater success.' So we'll see.
(we all know one guy who talks and talks about all the great things he's gonna do and never does shit).
I personally LIVE by the notion Derek Sivers brings up that you should get to work on something before you even dare talk about it. It's done fantastic things to my personal drive.
.
Which runs counter to some recent posts about posting more WIP threads. Maybe those threads shouldn't be: But more postmortem style? I personally tend to postmortem just about everything I do, if not record specific things and go back over it to see if I could improve the workflow. You would be surprised how much you catch when you hover over your own shoulder.
Finished project folder: 2 files
That's a really cool way of working Mark. I think I'm gonna try this out, and really analyze what I'm doing in the future.
This really was a fantastic thread idea ^ _ ^
I'll have to remember this when I start to crash on a project lol.
good advice in this thread all round!
edit: This blog post by Bre Pettis of Makerbot is very relevant.
"The Cult of Done": http://www.brepettis.com/blog/2009/3/3/the-cult-of-done-manifesto.html
This guy's list made sense until these lines;
6. The point of being done is not to finish but to get other things done.
7. Once you're done you can throw it away.
8. Laugh at perfection. It's boring and keeps you from being done.
10. Failure counts as done. So do mistakes.
Though I do agree that one should not get too attached to his/her work getting things done just for the sake of it is not something I would encourage. According to this guy's list you're supposed to make mistakes, fail and what not and then just leave it, nothing about fixing those mistakes or learning from them. You should aim really high too, almost perfection(related to your skill level)!
Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to say; Great post, Dreamer!
I still have a lot to learn about getting a wow concept together from the start,(and a lot to learn about everything else for that matter
This is the thing I get so stuck on every time I want to do art. I'm so afraid of sucking and I don't give myself permission to be bad at my art. I have an unrealistic expectation to do "professional" quality work from the start. I judge my "apprentice" level work against experienced "masters" which I know it unrealistic, but it is the stick by which I'll be measured if I want to get in to game art as a career. It sets me up for immediate failure and then when I fail, I tell myself I'm a failure. I tell myself I'll never make game art for a living and I should just let it go. It's hard to get past it with all the abuse I received as a child and the negative talk I was taught. I was never given permission to "fail". If it isn't right the first time, it never will be.
That's completely contrary to what a feel deep inside myself. I don't just do art, I feel like it's a very integrated and inseparable part of me. I guess I just have to do art for me while allowing myself to suck as I get better and get to a point where others see the value in my work before I can do art for a living. That's a hard realization for me to deal with, but I also realize that it also means that I just need to get through the shitty stuff and I will get to the good stuff.
I also feel it is really importing to know that no matter what, you are going to find problems with your own work. I'm sure every person here no matter how amazing there work is will be able to look at it and tell you everything that is wrong with it. You need to know when to call something done, take what you learned from it and move onto something else even better.