What made you become an indie? And if you didn't yet, why not?
Recently, there was an interesting article on arstechnica.com about developers turning indie:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/08/experience-going-indie.ars
While reading it, I found myself nodding in agreement with several of the cited reasons people turn to indie life after being in the biz. It made me want to explore the topic more, and see if there are outstanding reasons why veterans go indie.
I didn't find a lot of statistical data, though. There was a decent amount of information to pull from interviews and anecdotes, but nothing to aggregate it all, and look for trends or common threads.
So, I decided to create a survey:
http://gamedevgonerogue.blogspot.com/2011/08/motivations-for-becoming-indie-game.html
I've left the results public, so everyone can share in any data that is collected. My hope is that this can educate not only indies and would-be indies, but perhaps even the studios that want to retain their talent.
I hope this post isn't intruding. Though I don't normally post here, I recently saw a rather large blip of traffic from polycount on an article I wrote about indies and money coming from here:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87119&page=2
So I figured, there are probably at least a handful of folks here who might be interested in the data that is gathered.
In any case, thanks for reading. And keep up the awesome work!
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/08/experience-going-indie.ars
While reading it, I found myself nodding in agreement with several of the cited reasons people turn to indie life after being in the biz. It made me want to explore the topic more, and see if there are outstanding reasons why veterans go indie.
I didn't find a lot of statistical data, though. There was a decent amount of information to pull from interviews and anecdotes, but nothing to aggregate it all, and look for trends or common threads.
So, I decided to create a survey:
http://gamedevgonerogue.blogspot.com/2011/08/motivations-for-becoming-indie-game.html
I've left the results public, so everyone can share in any data that is collected. My hope is that this can educate not only indies and would-be indies, but perhaps even the studios that want to retain their talent.
I hope this post isn't intruding. Though I don't normally post here, I recently saw a rather large blip of traffic from polycount on an article I wrote about indies and money coming from here:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87119&page=2
So I figured, there are probably at least a handful of folks here who might be interested in the data that is gathered.
In any case, thanks for reading. And keep up the awesome work!
Replies
One thing I noticed was that the bar charts had labels that were hard to read, but the column to the right of each bar chart shows the full text with percentages. Though, that's only visible in the link I mention above, because my blog CMS has a limited page width.
Let me know if that's any better. If not, I can mess around with the survey results, and perhaps find another way to display them.
edit: oh I found it. for some reason there's a massive gap between the start and end of the post, in chrome at least
You're right. That gap was there in Firefox too. I was thinking it was better to have a gap on the first page than having to use a scrollbar in the following pages. But I just switched it to better match the initial survey questions, and the subsequent pages of the survey don't seem so bad, even with scrolling.
Thanks for pointing that out. It probably saved some other folks a headache!
A lot of friends/family have said to me "Hey why dont you just start your own studio, instead of banging your head against the wall trying to get a job"
The answer is you need to have some expirience in the industry before you can "go indy"
IMO
Yes and no. Your approach is a good one: get an industry job, see how the business runs from the inside, make some good contacts, and learn the ropes in preparation for your own indie plunge. That's exactly the strategy I followed, and it seems to have served me well so far
However, I had to do a lot of modeling, texturing, and programming in my spare time to get that job. By day, I was a web developer. By night, I was making models and textures for mod projects, prototyping gameplay in game engines, and putting it all in a portfolio so I would get noticed.
In retrospect, I was basically being an indie to get hired in a studio role. I just didn't know it then.
I feel now is probably the single best time to be an indie. The available tools are mature and often free, the available talent is plentiful and anxious to make something, and the distribution system makes getting your work out there for feedback (and potentially revenue!) a snap.
Whatever your intended path, it can't hurt to have a finished game/mod or two in your portfolio. Even small ones. And remember, there are some very influential and successful indies out there who never set foot in a studio!
Trying to find a good programmer who is on the same page as you and is not working full time, is next to impossible.
Then you need to have a damn good idea:)
So yeah I can do most of it ie basic animation, that doesn't look awful, but is not great, modelling/texturing both characters and environments, but I suck with UI design.
So there are always gaps to fill in re my skillset and they quickly turn in to sticking points.
I think its easier than art, because if you define the problem well enough, and plan things out its like it programs itself and you can iterate things through. Art requires judgement and its harder to iterate(something can look bad before it looks good).
I want to work on cool things that interest me (addictive gameplay, fun art style).
They want to work on fast things that make lots of money, are bland/boring, and they very quickly become the art director.
With the advent of platforms like Flash, XNA, and Unity, you can probably ramp-up faster than with some of the older style C++ engines.
There are some really good tutorials out there as well. Kongregate's "Shootorial" got me up-to-speed in Flash development in almost no time:
http://www.kongregate.com/labs
Flixel made Flash a breeze as well. I'm sure the same holds true for Flashpunk and Unity.
I've tried a few times in the past to use engines like Torque and Ogre, but found both more tangled feeling than vanilla Flash or Flixel
You can also pick up the UDK for free these days, and can do quite a bit with it without cracking open the code (e.g. just through scripting). Though, that's a bit more daunting finding the variable you need to make a change unless you find a good tutorial to walk you through.
As for finding programmers, it can be tricky finding teammates you mesh with. This is something big studios deal with too. The interview process can be lengthy before you find a good fit. But keep in mind that programmers are people too, and have the same needs that artists have. I.e. they want interesting problems to solve, some creative freedom, and a way to contribute meaningfully. In the end, focus on finding someone you get along with personally, and I think the partnership will go further.
I started with Gamemaker 5 using the visual stuff. Then moved on to the scripting part of it, then from there moved to Torque, Mel and other stuff. And after, ended up in Java in Unity and pushed to C# for Sunburn and Unity.
What resources did you use to learn?
Mostly, I break down old games and think about how they worked. Then I write on paper how I think it should work.
I've linked to this over and over but here it is again for those that are interested:
You can learn the fundamentals of computer science and programming here, course materials here, free pre-press version of the textbook here, and the other textbook here, at the course website.
After completing that course you'd definitely be well prepared to start programming games. One of the assignments is a breakout clone.
The course is taught in the context of Java which isn't a very popular language for indie developers, however as dcfedor said many of the languages you'd likely use are very similar and approach things the same way. Once you learn the fundamentals of programming in one language it becomes very easy to learn another (lisp and haskell not included...).
I'm working my way up to indie development. Right now it's math that's holding me back from making anything interesting, though I'm making progress thanks to Khan Academy.
Of course I'm not good at all aspects of art, especially character art. I figure I'll just work on it over time like everything else and make games that don't require realistic characters until I get better at it, or find a partner that is.
The other thing I worry about is the business and marketing side of things. For now I just read every blog post by other indies that I can find about those things in the hope that I can avoid making any huge mistakes.
I don't mean to say your wrong about learning from other people's code because I have so little experience in the matter, but here's a interesting blog post on that subject that I'm inclined to believe.
http://scientificninja.com/blog/understanding-code-is-hard
Just something to keep in mind while we push forward to being better programmers
2. Some of my ideas are not my own IP but see so much potential in these ideas that I would have to ask the world wide known IP holder for permission that would probably be rejected, which sucks cause they will never do It... It's so stupid, such potential lost.
3. I haven't found anyone that wants to work on anything (seriously) I had one guy I made a mockup of a quick idea (original) and he just disappeared, so It is one of those things where you both have to be interested to get something going & also have that free time to give... now a days, that is none existent (both free time & interest).
This is also something I would love to hear from some people about.
Has anyone had success with licensing IP or is it pretty much closed off to indys?
Like I've wanted to make a game based in the Sabriel universe ever since I read the books, some of the gameplay is practically laid out in writing. but I feel that It would be out of my/my studios scope to expect to legally use that IP.
Anyone who can share on that topic would be much appreciated
It would be in C#. This way you can go to OTHER software like Sunburn(XNA).
Nice article Ben. Yeah I should have clarified, I don't use peoples code as the only source of learning but look at the documentation and help like constantly (Sort of offtopic but whats with all these companies moving their documentation online, sucks trying to code and not being able to check) Agree with the site, well documented code is hard to find, though I have seen some fairly good ones like for example the duplicate along curve python script in Technical Talk. The best learning aid is probably the hardest part. Just getting over the fear of coding and coding :poly121:
@Lamont: Maybe something like gamedev.net workshop? Ill be in for C#
Learning how to write code is easy, learning how to write good code is fucking hard. As it's been mentioned, it's a skill that takes years to develop, and if you don't actively pursue it; you'll get nowhere imho. And the best way to do it, is by making games, failing miserably, and trying again. You know, like in art!
Lamont: If you were to go that route, try to explain it in a way that it isn't specifically tied to a language like C#. Writing gameplay is mainly a collection of techniques, algorithms and engine specific tips&tricks. The first two are entirely generic and should be explained in their context, not in the context of C#.
Learning how to code is like what; 10% syntax, 90% logic.
Yeah, I'll have it where it explains what it's doing and why. I comment a lot
using UnityEngine; using System.Collections; // the class ghostMovement HAS TO BE THE SAME NAME AS THE FILE. So you name your file buttKiss, then this class //NEEDS TO BE buttKiss. public class ghostMovement : MonoBehaviour { int myNumber; int Rounded; // Use this for initialization, like setting variables and ints. I set my numbers here, so when the "game" //starts, I have the result of Rounded. void Start () { //This pics a random FLOAT between 0 and 4. Floats are numbers with fractions //things like 1.2 or 35.0000234, where as things like // 1, 2, 3 and 3000404 are int or WHOLE NUMBERS. myNumber = Random.Range(0,4); //Now take this and make it an int by rounding to the nearest whole. Rounded = Mathf.RoundToInt(myNumber); } // Update is called once per frame. You really don't want to use this for many things, it eats CPU cycles //But for this demo, we will allow it. void Update () { //This little beauty is a CASE STATEMENT. It will be the "brains" of our ghosts. If it's this, do this, if it's that do this //The options are finite so we will have total control. All this will do is handle being chased, and chasing. // //You see this switch(Rounded)? That Rounded is what will control the case options. switch is looking for a number //and will only take the result of Rounded. Rounded was decided when the script first ran in the void Start(). switch(Rounded) { //Did the result of Rounded equal to 0? case (0):Debug.Log("The number is zero!"); break; //Did the result of Rounded equal to 1? case (1):Debug.Log("The number is one!"); break; //Did the result of Rounded equal to 2? case (2):Debug.Log("The number is two!"); break; //Did the result of Rounded equal to 3? case (3):Debug.Log("The number is three!"); break; //Did the result of Rounded equal to 4? case (4):Debug.Log("The number is four!"); //These BREAKS stop the process of the case WITHIN this switch. Just know you need this, or it will toss an error. break; } } }I'd definitely be up for that, I'm trying to get back into programming in Unity at the moment.
Pretty straightforward really.
I will have another look at this stuff soon:) (runs away and hides)
Looks like it just started and seems to have the potential to be awesome. It seems to be teaching Javascript.
Hmm...
I think we've fairly derailed this thread. Sorry dcfedor!
Maybe we should start a "Programming Master Thread" in Technical Talk for people to post info, useful links, tutorials, questions, etc... to keep things somewhat consolidated.
I know there are other forums more suited to coding, but it seems as though more than a few Polycounters are attempting to learn how to program lately and it might be nice to have a central thread to bounce ideas and questions off each other.
What do you guys think about that? Or should we just stick to posting stuff like that on other forums like Tigsource, Gamedev, and TechArtists.org?
Personally I feel more comfortable posting stuff here even though the audience might not be quite right.
My recommendation would be to stay away from existing IPs as much as possible.
IP license holders are usually in the difficult place of sending out cease and desists to every derivative project they hear about (even ones they like), because not doing so could set a dangerous legal precedent for them.
What's more, you may not receive a cease and desist until the last minute, after you've sunk irrecoverable time into the project. You cannot earn any revenue using someone else's IP, you don't have any legal right to distribute derivative works, and you run the risk of legal action costing you money.
The one exception that comes to mind is if you legally license the IP. However, that typically involves a contract, which means legal fees for you at the least. And if you don't have successfully published games already under your belt, they'll probably charge you an upfront licensing fee rather than a revenue sharing model, since they have no idea whether you'll succeed or not without a product history to look to.
Not to mention the license-holders restrictions on creative control, scope, etc. Do you really want someone else telling you how to make your game, what rules to employ, what art style, etc?
In summary, it's so much more rewarding, and less hassle, to make your own IP. You will own it, reap all it's rewards, avoid legal hassles, and can do whatever you want.
There's a good (if sobering) resource out there that covers this and other useful topics for indies:
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/lesson39.htm
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/faq61.htm
Those may not be exactly the situation you describe, but there's relevant info there.
Its pretty hard to make your own ip so why not take an existing one and adapt it to your needs.
People think they can patent ideas now, its crazy.
just like star wars was originally a homage to "the hidden fortress" ?
No sweat! Glad to have kicked off a discussion that's helping, even if the topic has shifted.
I think having a sticky thread someplace for folks interested in seeking programming info would be a good idea. Consolidate some links to good intros, resources, tutorials, etc. It can't hurt to have readily available, well-indexed sources of knowledge!
I myself have sworn off of attempting While loops for this very reason.
Come now, don't be silly. While loops are some of the most powerful iteration techniques you can use. Yes, it's a bit of a hassle if you get stuck in an infinite loop, and that's why you "cap" the while loop when you're just prototyping or starting out with those until you think it's all right.
And by capping I mean something like this (this is just one way of doing it).
int maxIterations = 1000; int i = 0; while (someExpression) { // Execute some code // ... if(++i >= maxIterations) break; }+1 for a general programming thread right here on Polycount! And I would like to add the suggestion that general techniques are recapped on the first post/page of said thread.
why do you say that?
Its usually good to not think of your game ideas in terms of style and theme at first and just get the overall gameplay mechanics working. Minecraft could have been set in futuristic space, or From Dust could have been about saving cities from natural disasters.
Exactly, making up a new Ip and creating ideas is always the easiest part of making games, executing it and implement stuff it is where the work starts.
Lots of reasons. Making a totally original IP, you need the room, the time. All that along with creating a game. Depending on how detailed and complete you want the thing. Creating the world of Lord of the Rings, I'm pretty sure took a lot of time and effort before Tolkein even started writing the stories.
Even when you think you are creating an original IP you might not be. I suppose it depends on the game and IP, creating Super Meatboy must have been easy. And I do like how lots of Japanese RPGS seem to have unique IPs. But anyone can make up any old shit but doesnt mean its going to be good, it depends on the effort, and even just luck sometimes.
Then you're into some legal troubles, IP is in the collection of names only.
The indie scene is nearly almost devoid of recreated IP's, mainly because the cost is too great to buy one, nor does it in any way affect the outcome of how good your game becomes. There's only recognition-value in IP's.
There's way less cost involved in creating your own IP.
how about: hey, what if you have a game where you slice up loads of fruit which is tossed into the air? fruit makes nice graphics, ninja makes you feel cool, we'll call it fruit ninja. bam, IP
[ame]
I guess if its just changing names, and stuff, but then that was my original point. I think someone attempted to sue JK Rowling, because her stories were similar to someone elses in certain ways of course it was thrown out because it was stupid. But if I made a game involving a Moustachioed plumber called Dave, could I be sued?
I know if I was going to create my own IP I'd put alot of work into it(not because it would neccesarily require alot of work, but because it would be fun).
Enough Plumbers