I need advice on a job offer
polycounter lvl 13
I was recently offered a job at a studio in Austin. When I originally applied for the position, I was under the impression that it was a contract position that would allow me to make ends meet, save up some money, and even start making a dent in my student loans. Unfortunately, the position is not quite what I expected and pays far less than I had hoped. My concern is that I will not be making enough to live on unless they offer more or unless I work insane hours and possibly find a second job. It would also require me to move halfway across the US with no relocation assistance. Considering how hard it is to get into the game industry, it is incredibly hard to pass up the chance to get my foot in the door and get a shipped title, but I have to take into consideration that I need to be able to pay my bills.
Can a person make it in Austin on 20k per year? If you were in my position, would you consider it worth the risk to take a position like this?
Can a person make it in Austin on 20k per year? If you were in my position, would you consider it worth the risk to take a position like this?
Replies
that's 4k less than my mother makes from social security and i constantly am needing to assist her financially. her rent is 600 a month and has minimal bills. I would say no unless there's more to the deal like they will provide housing or you have someone to back you or you have another 5-10k in the bank you are willing to burn thru in the first year.
and yes i live in austin
I don't know much about costs here nevermind in america but some people can do fine on a low income, others do not. I imagine a person can and are making it in Austin on 20k per year but if you tend to have a lot of spendature you'll have to think about it.
And also you say you may have to work insane hours to earn enough, check that you'd actually get paid for those hours?
i dont know the tax rate in texas but last i checked it was close to nothing.
even then the monthly pay comes down to roughly $1500 a month. this is before any tax/SS, health care payments.
so make sure you pay all your bills, expenses, loans payments etc.
What rogue said..and.. you won't be making a scratch on those student loans if you accept this offer, let alone be able to 'live' comfortably. I'm also assuming you have a nice chunk of change to pay back to your student loan lender.
How much do you know about the company in question? Are they a triple a or smaller indie developer? Have you found out what others think about working there? If they're lowballing you with salary (+ no relocation assistance for moving across country?!), ask yourself what else you might be sacrificing.
20k a year is a joke for any kind of skilled work, especially for jobs as technical as ours. This kind of behavior reinforces a horrible precedent for industry newcomers and needs to be done away with.
I'd never work anywhere as an artist for 20k unless I was making that off of like, 2 or 3 days of work a week. Honestly...20k, that's...what, maybe a dollar or two over minimum wage working full time, if you do the math? (Edit: No it's a bit more than that, I guess. Still though...)
At that point you might as well work just about ANYWHERE else, and spend your free time doing art you actually decide upon yourself.
Another edit: You'd be making what I'm making at my tech support job, if you counted it per hour. (I'm only working 4 days a week.)
I suggest you keep looking, 20k a year is pathetic. You shouldn't take anything under 40K in my opinion.
well, can you pay all the expenses, bills etc with the %1500 per month ?
or are you going to have to cut into your savings if you have any.
20K seems too low of an offer for even an entry level position in a AAA studio.
that's pretty low - you could possibly make more with benefits in retail. You should respond asking for $35k, still not awesome but not as insulting as $20k.
Stop restricting yourself to entry level - you should be applying to positions that say "character artist" or "environment artist" etc...
also, here's a link to check out: 2011 Game Career Guide Issue
If you have spoken to them and theres no joy then work out your budget and go from there. Probably gonna have to flatshare and live off beans for a year, personally I would hold out for a better job. If you are full time and it pays $20k then come to England, thats less than our minimum wage here. Entry level here is around $30-35k-ish.
crazyfool: I plan to call them tomorrow and see if I can work something out. Hopefully I can get something better, if not I will probably have to turn it down.
If you can't do that and take it anyway, I think you're setting yourself up for hardship and disaster. Don't think this is a big opportunity you're passing up, it'd be more accurate to think of it as insulting.
This calculator might help you decide.
http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html
See if you can ask for 25k with in your contract a salary reappraisal in 6 months PLUS the all important. Health care.
compare $20,000 a year in Austin to where you currently live - it will give you an idea of what to expect.
edit: Oxy beat me to it
THIS! That really is low ball as hell. Honestly I wish this place that the name of this company would be out in the open because this is not ok. This does nothing to help our industry and the people that work their asses off in it.
Seriously you could get a job at Best Buy and make more then that a year and have benefits and a discount on stuff and not be worked like a mad man.
+2
That's 33% less as a starting wage than I got 10 years ago.
22k is minimum wage in Austin.
Getting into an industry isn't worth selling your soul or piece of mind for. Ask them politely for something reasonable for the skill level of the work you will be doing.
You never know. It may be part of the personality side of the equation to see which candidates know their own worth.
Edit: Its worth asking. Are you sure its a per year offer and not for a shorter contract period? Like 22k for 6 months isn't bad, but yes, if its per year...no.
$833.33 per paycheck.
$10.42 an hour.
In many cities that is below minimum wage. Most testers I work with make more than that.
I realise you hadn't mentioned the position you're offered. Do NOT move across the country for a temp testing job.
I don't know jack about Austin but I do know about taking a bad deal, I wouldn't do It again no matter how much I liked the project & I hate declining really fun projects but you have to know when your being taken advantage of. Also like someone has said this is just hurting the industry but since times are just getting harder people are taking It up the ass and dealing with the abuse in their own way.
Best of luck to you.
Being an artist is a skilled labor position. You can't just go grab anybody off the street to come in and do it tomorrow. Don't let yourself get paid like that is the case.
Don't be afraid to negotiate pay, just because you don't have industry experience doesn't mean you don't have leverage, if they could have found somebody locally they wouldn't have offered the job to someone across the country.
I've heard that Austin is actually quite cost effective compared to other game dev hotspots, but moving for an insecure ~$10/hour job is not something I would have ever considered. Personally, I'd rather live with my parents, work part time in retail, and then bust my ass on my portfolio, but I know that's not always an option.
Good luck with it!
Find a girlfriend/close buddy to share a room with.
To be honest Im making plans to move to austin (from LA) WITHOUT a job just to start networking and open up some oportunities. Im planning on just working in retail with my GF and busting my ass until an opportunity presents itself.
but if you've got the skills to choose where you work might aswell wait for the ideal job to come along.
I don't want to sound like a dick, but I think your lucky to be finding a job in industry with your portfolio during such a hard time to get into the industry.
...but that was almost a decade ago.
That's why he has to weigh it up, because once he gets a foot in the door, it will give him more bargaining power as he progresses, but I really think the 20,000 is taking the piss a bit in this case
I don't agree with the practice, but there it is
Although it was also almost 10 years ago, my first job involved me living in a house with 5 other guys, with no car and very little free spending money. Though it got me the experience I needed to move up the ladder. I guess it is a matter of putting off you loan payments and sacrificing your social spending money.
Know your worth.
You are not worthless.
And jesus christ @ Blitz paying you 12k. That's criminal
here's my insight.... its embarassing, but ill say it anyways.
I started at 22k. minimum wage, for an animation job. and believe me when i say, it down right sucks knowing you`re getting paid HALF what you should be making. I work for a really small studio so they just cant afford to pay me more. everyone starts at minimum wage and slowly moves up. I am the ONLY animator. oh, and i dont only do animation. i do rigging, modelling, texturing, lighthing, and even some concept from time to time. so, why`d i take it? I left my restaurant job that was paying 13/hr for a 10.25/hr job. here's why....
my pay cheques actually work out to be MORE here, because im getting 40 hours a week. monday to friday, 9 - 5. the restaurant i was only getting around 30. so technically, im making more here. But, I also still live at home, so i dont have to pay rent. If i had to move out on my own to work here, i wouldnt have taken it at all. But, with the slightly more money, and getting my foot in the door, i decided to do it, purely for the exp, and find another job, asap. 8 months later, still looking. not even so much as a call back or even an email thanking me for applying. even with experience.
Do i regret taking the job? no. Would i do it again.... probably, if the circumstances were the same. but if anything was different, i would say no. Trust me. you`ll start out saying this is great! im in the industry. but very soon, all you`ll be thinking about is how they are taking advantage of you. ESPECIALLY from a AAA studio. no way would i accept a job from a AAA for minimum wage. I will say that the experience ive gotten has been great though. friendly people, great work environment, and lots of stuff to do in all accords. so ive learnt the pipeline well! but sadly, money is one of those things that stresses me out alot. i dont need ALOT, but i need enough to live on. I work my ass off. it would be nice to feel appreciated with a proper wage.
And what sucks, is from the looks of it, alot of studios are starting to pay less and less, purely because they can. because alot of people get out of school and just want their foot in the door. just like me. I know it hurts the industry to accept jobs at such a low rate, but when it comes down to it, how long can you wait for that perfect job, with the perfect wage....
I pay roughly $800-900 in bills each month (school debt and phone bill, thats it), and it doesnt leave me much for the way of living. im constantly turning down invites out with friends cause i cant afford it. Just because i need money for gas or something.
So ya, being in the situation i am in, id say dont do it. i know how hard it is between money and the stress you feel from bills, and the stress from knowing you are being taken advantage of. if you could still live at home, rent free, maybe. but you`re moving. dont do it. or say you need at least 32k. (32k was the LOWEST i heard of people making before i got this job. i was always told an animation straight out of school should be making $800 a week. not 700-800 every 2 weeks, so i thought 32 was even low).
anyways, thats my two cents, or should i say... half my wage *cry* I do love my job, and its alot of fun being in the industry. I still give it my all every day. But as I said, making so little, I dont feel as appreciated as I would like, and it makes life outside of work stressful too
/rant
So alot of people have been saying its disgraceful and its a rip but I will tell you that one, they are a business, and to be honest they don't have to hire you. They treat me very well, and I have learned an incredible amount here. The studio is full of great artist that love what they do and if you do too, they will appreciate and respect you. I now have connections, experience, and an opportunity for full time. I believe its all about paying your dues whether or not you deserve more. You take in life what you can get, and realize that our profession is abjillon times better than what most people have to do in life. Its a profession where we never have to work.
And remember if you dont take it, someone else will.
So by taking it you are also screwing all the entry level guys that are going to be offered those crappy contracts.
I know you are eager to get in but people have to make a stand at some point. Keep in mind that those kind of decisions not only affect you but they affect the entire industry. My 2 cents.
Unless you're a local student living at home a short distance from the studio it seems satanic to ask that of anyone.
I agree with the vast majority of people, just say no. It isn't worth it. What I understand from people working there it is not a negotiable rate (it's not salary pay) and the position will be incredibly temporary. The timeframe I was told was a 6 month contract.
I hope that has changed if it's the same studio offering this position, but some how I doubt it.
I don't think they expect anyone to live off that wage, and if they do... well that's probably not a good place to work unless you have some other way of supplementing the missing income you'll need to... survive...
There are better easier way to pull in a decent wage and do what you love in your spare time so don't think this is your one and only shot.
If they are offering you an intern slot because they are unsure of your skill level then I would stick with something more profitable as a day job and polish up those skills until you get offers that you can live off of.
Best advice for you in this thread I think.
well that's different, $20k for 6 months sounds reasonable.
Also I tend to agree with the idea of taking jobs at that kind of payrate propagating the problem of studios thinking they can get talented people for a pittance and creating more of the problem.
Also for what it's worth: the standard conversion for professional salaries is a 2000 hour year. Figures 50 weeks @ 40hrs per week and 2wks vacation included in salary price. So 20k/2000 is $10 per hour.
I don't know, I didn't have much experience beforehand. I was a senior artist for a military sim company and I was a character artist for a DS company for a bit... not really top tier stuff. I could have found a position somewhere else paying a real salary, but the fact is that when I was offered the job I didn't want to find somewhere else. The project I'm working on is something I am very passionate about, I can't stress how amazing my team is, the motivation and support I get from them is invaluable, and I really can't imagine being happier with my job.
Edit- you really need to determine on your own what's worth it to you. Money? Experience? The IP? The team? Once you figure that out you should have the answer to your questions.