League of Legends
polycounter lvl 19
If I may, I wanted to talk about gameplay instead of art. (What!? I know!)
So, League of Legends. I love the game. I play it every night with my friends here in Toronto on Skype. It's a great way to hang out with them and chat while we game.
Anyway! Gameplay.
In my opinion, LoL and I assume other MOBA games have two HUGE gameplay flaws that I cannot stand.
They game itself is entirely team orientated yet you have to compete with your team-mates over minion kills (read: flow of income). I cannot stand the unspoken battle between team-mates over minion kills. To me, it is a wrench in the teamwork machine. Yes, we can chat to each other and organize minion kills, but there are much more important things to be communicating over in this game that something like the control over income shouldn't be one of them.
The second is entropy in deaths. Not only do I not know how I've died at times*, the game has elements to it that outright take control directly away from me as a player. The first part of this complaint is likely my fault, LoL especially can have a lot of shit going on in a small area that it can be hard to follow. The other part, however, is not a players fault. Spells/abilities such as fear and taunt are the worst feature for a game - where the control of my character is taken away for a moment time. And if I die in this moment, its the absolute worst feeling of hatred for a game. Great, not only can I not control myself but I cannot defend myself either.
*I'm aware I can see the death report.
Now, I'm a decent player. I think I've won as many as I've lost and completely understand I put myself in the situations I am complaining about. However, this abundance of entropy and player control is something that wouldn't fly in any other game.
/shrug
PS: Add me in LoL: MANCHiiLD
So, League of Legends. I love the game. I play it every night with my friends here in Toronto on Skype. It's a great way to hang out with them and chat while we game.
Anyway! Gameplay.
In my opinion, LoL and I assume other MOBA games have two HUGE gameplay flaws that I cannot stand.
They game itself is entirely team orientated yet you have to compete with your team-mates over minion kills (read: flow of income). I cannot stand the unspoken battle between team-mates over minion kills. To me, it is a wrench in the teamwork machine. Yes, we can chat to each other and organize minion kills, but there are much more important things to be communicating over in this game that something like the control over income shouldn't be one of them.
The second is entropy in deaths. Not only do I not know how I've died at times*, the game has elements to it that outright take control directly away from me as a player. The first part of this complaint is likely my fault, LoL especially can have a lot of shit going on in a small area that it can be hard to follow. The other part, however, is not a players fault. Spells/abilities such as fear and taunt are the worst feature for a game - where the control of my character is taken away for a moment time. And if I die in this moment, its the absolute worst feeling of hatred for a game. Great, not only can I not control myself but I cannot defend myself either.
*I'm aware I can see the death report.
Now, I'm a decent player. I think I've won as many as I've lost and completely understand I put myself in the situations I am complaining about. However, this abundance of entropy and player control is something that wouldn't fly in any other game.
/shrug
PS: Add me in LoL: MANCHiiLD
Replies
The minion kills is more or less a non-issue. Get good enough to snipe them all, and then either do so or don't do so if you want to play a support hero. LOL is rather bad in that aspect as the lack of a "deny" mechanic makes the creeping a banal gold farming minigame rather than a huge early game lane war. Either way there's nothing wrong with it.
If anything the problems with MOBAs is the presence of imba heroes who can't be stopped when they're fed late game, and other heroes who become worthless late (or are always worthless).
As for minion kills, you should never be fighting your teammates for these. Good players should know the priority of farming. In an ideal situation, your support should be bottom with your carry, never last hitting and helping them farm. Jungler will be taking care of himself, leaving the other two lanes solo. Farming is an important aspect to the game and is the main strategy for the first 5 levels. IMO it is just another layer to the game, something to sink into after you've figured out how to play the champs well.
I've won over 600 games, and am just now really coming to understand the importance of knowing these roles and not running around killing waves before my teammates can.
The absolute biggest frustration for me is your reliance on the other four players. When you're playing with your friends, this is awesome. When playing with anyone else, it can be the most enraging thing I've experienced in video games, as to be successful you either all need to know your role/champion extremely well or have immaculate communication. Neither of which are usually the case when thrown into a game with 4 strangers.
This game brings on the rage like no other. [but i keep it to myself. i'm not one to insult strangers in game. fuck those guys.]
ingame is: Sectaurs
Bandaid, IMO.
I tried playing Bloodline champions for a while and I really liked its pace and the fact a lot of the spells were skillshots rather than autoaim. LoL would probably need changing from the ground up to truelly incorperate this properly though, as is, when battles / fights can be decided with 1 key stun or engage its very important that you hit them in the heat of battle, and if they didnt autoaim then it'd make it a mess.
Another problem i had with what skillshots there are in the game is theres NO extra reward (aside nidalee?) for hitting them... A good nidalee can be fucking mean. Something i've done multiple times as shen vs mundo/kennen i start throwing my blade and dodge some of their shots which rapidly makes the lane mine... its hardly fair at that level.
Regarding creep farming though - lanes are normally split into;
solo top / solo mid / jungler / ad/support bottom
I played taric a lot and i'd pair up with someone like ashe/ezreal/missfortune and let them get all the kills. My role in the game was basically stun > semi initiate and auras and depending on how many assists i got i'd buy wards.
I had around 440 wins - 400 losses when i stopped, topped out around 1400 rating before getting dragged down to 1200... the game wasnt rewarding enough to warrent putting up with the dregs of the community while learning the tactics to carry.
the enemy is usually much nicer than my teammates
Yup. What LoL needs is a Black King Bar equivalent (complete magic immunity for X seconds). It makes the game much much better.
As for the minions, I do see your point of fighting over the minions/money. But it's also part of the teamplay that you let your teammates get kills and not just hog everything for yourself. (reason support and carries always team up is because the carry needs as much kills as possible while the support can do without) So this I see as part of the strategy and tactic. When me and my friend play we know who needs the most minion kills and we'll keep an eye on the creep count and make sure one doesn't hog to much. If I have 50 and he has 10 I'll back off for a bit to catch exp but not attack the minions. Instead I'll focus on bugging the enemy as much as possible to keep them away from any possible kills. If you take turns doing this the one killing creeps will have time to regen some mana which he can later waste on keeping enemies away. This way both of you get money, exp and you'll deny the enemy some of their money and possibly exp.
As for the creep kills, it simple, they add a layer of tactic. You generally don't want a Sorakka with near as many creep kills as your Ashe or Miss Fortune and so on. Support characters should generally let the cary get 80-90% of them in the lane and be quick to get the money/10 sec items.
Its cause you kill steal :P
Im a feeder
As good as it is, I believe the gameplay deteriorates towards the late game. It becomes a game of numbers at the mid range of play (what i experience as I don't routinely play with buddies). I actually prefer this type of play as the game doesn't turn into a boring exercise of going through "the motions" of how you're supposed to play. There's a certain magic to just joining a random game, not knowing what heros you'll be up against, what their play style is, what items they'll get. If they gank, if they turtle, etc. It's a big thrill not knowing if you're going to pwn or get pwned in the next game.
Anyway, to the gameplay discussion! Strength of a team increases exponentially as more heroes are in a given area, it's far too rewarding of turtling players. Run into a hero with a 3 second stun? Good chance of getting away. Run into 2 heroes that both have stuns? You're doomed, 2x the damage paired with extra crowd control. It's gotten to the point that going out and putting your ass on the line to try to play the game in an exciting manner is considered "noob". I create situations where i nearly kill heroes solo and my entire team hangs back because the optimal way to play is to simply turtle and bunch up big time at the end. The ultimate strategy is to simply have 5 heroes in a giant deathball and slam into a hopefully smaller number of heros. Such a situation creates chaos and the gameplay melts away, amidst the chaos you don't know what's going on, there is no what someone can track 10 heros all at once. Because this is the optimal way to play the magic is often lost. All the top end laning you did earlier means nothing in the late game if the other team eventually just bunches up better than you do.
LOL is at its best in the early to mid game, when everyone is expanding on items, still laning and there is the potential for a gank or two, this is when there is a great combination of gameplay elements all going on at once. You're leveling, youre growing in power, you're compensating for the enemy's rise in power. Situations where there may be 3 heros on 2, balanced by towers and NPCs. Problem is there are no gameplay mechanics to facilitate this type of play in the late game. No bonus for attacking 2 lanes at once, the rewards for laning diminish. Obviously there needs to be an end to the game, but right now it usually feels a bit anti climactic. Nothing is worse than picking your favorite hero and realizing in the middle of a game your entire team is melee or magic damage and the entire other team has simply equipped the required armor. It's too rock paper scissory, I wish armor items weren't so potent and heros were simply tuned to have appropriate armor and magic resists. There are plenty of items in the game that don't make you invincible against half the heros in the game to take their place.
Build your team understanding each other weakness and strengths, and fight adapting to what's going on in the field.
Seems like most people just want to kick ass on their own and be the start player who kills the most- in that case you're probably going to lose.
Share the creeps... don't lane with someone who eats them up if you need them. There's also goldper5seconds items, that enable you to get rich without killing tons of minions.
As an aside I have to admit for something as twitch reaction and hard as it is... it's an extremely enabling and addictive game anyways; allows you figure things out, as you slowly progress in levels of difficulty. Super fun, and then you to get attached to your favorite characters, which makes winning with them even better. It's one of my favorite game in a long time.
The problem that I have with those games is that they're designed as PvE games, but let you do PvP stuff. In PvE it makes sense to have a strong boss-type mob that it takes several heroes to defeat. In PvP it becomes an insta-gib fest. Likewise, in PvE it makes sense to have team-mates. In PvP, team-mates determine whether you win or lose.
That's the problem I had with the WoW arena, and is the problem I have with these games now. You rely too much on team-mates, it's unclear why/how exactly you died, often it's a matter of one hero being the Rock to your Scissors, etc etc. Just too many factors.
The best game in that regard was Magic:The Gathering. Gameplay is slow as it's turn-based. What's going on is painfully clear, the effects are right there on the cards for you to read. There's no such thing as imba heroes, as anyone can put any cards in their decks, and everything has a counter. It's purely a game of one person's mind against another's. The only video-games I've seen that achieve this are fighting games like Street-Fighter.
LoL kinda gets close. There are relatively few abilities to each character, so it's an easier learning curve. You pick your own hero before each match (unlike stuff like the WoW arena), so you can't really complain about having an underpowered hero. The gear resets every fight (again, unlike the WoW arena) so you can customize it each time.
My main problem with it is how easy it is to die without control. And how when the fight starts, it's more about throwing abilities out there and doing your combo, all the while hoping that your team is good enough to finish it off, that there's really zero chance for any kind of Yomi on any level.
All in all, it's a great game. For being near-free too? Can't beat that. If Magic ever had a version with a similar business model, I'd be all over it.
In the case of fear, it becomes a necessary strategy to target champs like Fiddle first in a team fight in order to A) prevent fear and
For Fiddle, it's a good way for him to initiate a fight, escape, or provide some crowd control. But look at his drawbacks. He's so squishy! As an opponent, you need to make sure your i's are dotted and t's are crossed before engaging. And, seeing as it's a team game, it should be quite possible to survive an encounter if people are targeting the right champs in the right order. Fiddle's usually pretty high on the list of champs to deal with in a fight and pops really fast.
Every hero has it's "oh shit, don't want to be near him while he's doing that" modes. I'm a freaking boss with Rammus. I've gotten so many fuck you's from enemy teams I've lost count. Taunt is amazing. I hold, you punch. Dive my tower? Please die. Try to kill my team? Nah, focus me instead.
Is it frustrating you can't get away when I taunt? You bet ya, but it's a skill you have to prepare for when going toe to toe with my team and I. It's what makes the game so awesome... every game has it's own set of conditions to be successful. When I play Rammus, the enemy team has to take into account that I will taunt their carry's, defend our carries, chase after you, and just all around fuck up any sort of plan they had going for them.
Ideally you should have a jungler every game. It gives an exp and gold advantage to your team, plus interesting gank opportunities. Unless my team is losing and I'm spending more time traveling in between lanes to save people's asses, I'm rarely hurting for gold. Dragon is also another very important thing to control. Ward that shit and profit.
Edit: I get heart of gold with rammus, which pays for itself by mid game and builds into omens. I don't recommend getting the utility point in gold, but it's your call. IMO, it could be spent on better things.
In game name: Stradigos
As a side note: I lose my cursor in the game so fucking much
I don't mean to be a dick, but the fact that you complain about it more or less outs you as a noob. Disables are only game-breaking for newer players, and especially for those with the bad fortune of having crappy teammates. In a teamfight with competent support you can easily manage enemy heroes with disables if the teams are on an even skill level. In games like DoTA and HoN where the style is more hardcore and mechanics are much tighter, disabling/anti-disabling is the core of any teamfight and gives the game depth. Pure offensive skills would essentially mean that whoever grabs the hard-carry wins it late, and that's already bullshit enough as it is. I've pulled off some crazy wins because of disables, and been beaten by some masterful enemy disabling, and it's awesome. Your frustration is understandable, but hardly reason enough to gut a core game mechanic.
Also yes, LoL has terrible artwork and the cursor blends in almost immediately in any big melee.
Did you have any idea of what to replace these things with? Just wondering if you've given it any thought. Sometimes I get frustrated by something and would do it a different way.
The problem arrives later, i.e. you say youre ok with dying if you fuck up - well, getting feared is you fucking up... and now we are dealing with definitions of stuns/death, instead of associating the death with stun and NOT the initial fuck up. Youre still responsible.
cba rewording that so it makes total sense.
The main beef i have with whats being said at the moment is how much the word "skill" is being thrown around, but thats because i prefer to differentiate skill from knowledge. At a decent level LoL isn't hard to play, it doesn't require the concentration or multitasking of Starcraft nor the twitch / precision of CS or Quake. I'd go as far as to say that even WoW would be harder to get into, purely as theres more skills to use (teamwork is another story). Meanwhile in the LoL camp i could explain the strategy and babysit a friend telling him not to overextend and when to pressure.
LoL to me is qwe qwe qwe R qwe while keeping your head in the game.
And he will be utterly RAPED and called a noob for 20 consecutive games, minimum. And he'll still be mediocre for another one or two hundred until he learns what to do and when to do it.
The devil is in the details with MOBAs. Rough strategy is easy, but split second timing, proper skill usage, proper targetting, and all the nuances like juking and orbwalking (not in LoL) take lots of time and observation.
I think you play up the "Proper targeting, skill usage and juking" things, not that im directly attacking moba games as such, merely trying to put them inperspective of requirements that are similar and far more demanding in other games.
Like, if i were to try and taunt as shen or stun as taric im REALLY telegraphing that, theres no finesse or OMG WILL IT LAND variables, its... if the circle gets in range, i click a fucking huge hitbox and land my stun. Perhaps the "skill" is in the timing - like, it'd be a waste if we cant do damage / its at the tower... etc.
I really wish the game had more things like Ashe arrow / Ez / Lux or even things like poppys slam / Alistars knockback (flash, bump, stun) as when you pull off something good its all that more rewarding. When i played taric itd be like doing a colour by numbers, im playing how im meant to, i dont fuck up but i dont feel like im ever doing anything exemplary.
I think the fun for me in solo games is trying to play mind games, getting into the other players head with your 'body language' early on to create a path to lots o gold and a steam rolling end game. Depends largely on what character you're playing but sometimes you want them to think you're avoiding them till level X, so they are over extended, or you want them to know that if they last hit they too will be smacked in the face consistently. Throw them off their game, lure them in, then eat them!
If relying so heavily on a team mates is killing the game for you a bit, try a mid/solo/jungling champ. Obviously your team can still suck but you create your own mayhem this way! Personally I find Trundle a lot of fun when Im feeling the need to not lane with someone failing a flavor of the month champ :poly124:
Edit: In game name Zaite (havent played as much recently, but I go through phases!)
Just my opinion.
also, why can't the game remember my stupid password so I don't have to always type it in!
LOL shh nobody is suppose to know!
I personally think this is blown out of proportion unless one lane is seriously feeding. Perhaps you're still low level? The higher level play is different. About every three or four games I get stuck with someone who has ZERO lane awareness, but I try to make it a learning opportunity for them.
I remember when I first got into MOBA games... Dota was completely unforgiving and inaccessible to new players. I stopped playing because people had zero patience for someone trying to get past the steep learning curve. I got tired of being flamed. Enter LoL, which is very friendly (relatively) and accessible to new players and keep's games competitive with it's match making system. Out of the almost 400 games I've played, maybe a dozen have been crushing victories for my team or the enemies team. I'd say that's pretty good. Now that I've learned lane awareness and the nature of MOBA games, I'm really looking forward to Dota 2.
Back to what you were saying though. I've had some pretty epic come from behind victories. You do get some IP bonuses for longer matches. That's why some people don't like to surrender even if they are losing horribly.
I was hooked on Dota before, now I am hooked on wow and this.
I suppose that means HoN is for squares and lamers too.
Hmm.
It's a nonstop ragefest.
The best teams that win seem to all get ghosts/exhaust and + movement characters with cc. It's like a giant race around the map. I personally would rather see more maps in regular mode.
Her abilltity to kite, interrupt and kill everyone is awesome. Her ultimate makes sure you can interrupt people trying to backdoor your points and can also help you land a sure kill.
Getting the new item that makes a chain lighting every 4th attack + 2x Phantom Dancer = instant clear of creep waves to help you push a tower and distrupt people at the towers.
Pretty much. Heimer is also kind of OP in dominion. Too bad draft pick causes so many leavers, otherwise I'd play that.
I've been playing Annie, Morgana and Jax since the game was out.
I gotta move on.
EDIT. Changed my Name to Monkey Toe.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/04/17/what-is-league-of-legends-supremacy/
I love the second idea of making it a dungeon crawler! would be awesome!
s/n = BajSingh
name = Vikron
The game is soooo fun.
...if anyone's on the SEA/Garena servers.
I'm so bad at this game, it's awesome.
since there's a mac client finally! I'm worse than Juan is I'm sure. I tend to get beat by the tutorials.