Need an honest opinion, in a mid life crisis at the moment
So I'm suppose to be going to VFS (Vancouver Film School) in August. Today I got a friend request from a student who is attending. After talking for a while he has completely turned my opinion around to the dark side. He said it's not really worth it, and it's a business not a school. I'm trying to be not hard headed and take is warning seriously. this is a big decision because I'm bound up in a $70,000 loan that I might cancel...He referred me to digital tutors and Gnomon if I want to learn the same thing for cheaper. What the hell do I do?
Zack
Zack
Replies
In all honestly, Video Games is a business, so the course will most likely be emulating this in its structure. If your course gives you the opportunity to network with industry guys and you can motivate yourself to put the time and effort in then it should be worth it. That being said $70k could probably be spent on keeping yourself afloat through a couple of years of learning on your own, however you'll most likely struggle to maintain the motivation without having deadlines in place to work towards.
I hope this makes some sense...
It sounds like your friend might be dealing with what a lot of people deal with when they hit college. There isn't a lot of hand holding and you're expected to carry the lions share of the work load. It really is more like assisted self teaching. Those who walk in expecting the money they spend to net them a degree and a job with little effort probably aren't going to go that far and will feel cheated. They'll also have a hard time making in an industry where there is even less hand holding.
It really takes a focused, dedicated and disciplined person to pull off the self educated route. Either path you take it will be a lot of work and the end goal is a smoking hot portfolio so don't lose sight of that. Good luck, relax and find the joy in creating. Projects are often a reflection of what you put into them. Worry, frustration and aimless toil are not what you want to show off in your portfolio. If its going to be this stressful learning then maybe you would be better off keeping this as a hobby until you find the joy?
I honestly don't have an answer one way or the other and I don't know you well enough to recommend a path so its up to you... good luck.
He gave me a list of names of other people that are in his class for an opinion. I understand it's a lot of self will, and animation I'm really passionate about but am wondering if it's really worth going to be in debt around $147,000 when all said and done after fees.
A debt is a tough one. Take Zipfinator, I believe he skipped out on school and decided to teach himself to avoid being in debt. I went to university and while the course was...lacking, I would still go knowing what I know now. I met some great friends, spent three years doing what I loved and it looks nice on my CV / resume.
I wish you luck, if you want to pursue this dream then keep at it and use all the time you have to improve yourself. They'll be days where it might cause great stress but you basically have to push past that, all the top artists did and look at them now!
I was considering a course at Escape when i was first starting out learning, but the fees where to much and hence i couldn't enroll. A few years later they started to do most of there classroom courses online and after checking some of the free trials out, i came to the conclusion that i would have been soo pissed if id have folked out so much money for what they was offering, most of it was available online free, the rest could easily be found at the sites listed above for a fraction of the price.
I don't buy into all this "Oh such-a-bodies teaching it." They may well be very talented artists, but teaching is a whole different story.
I think the only good thing imho about being stuck in a classroom is that your focused on doing the work as opposed to watching some stuff at home and then your mind starts wondering and you fire up a game midway through a DVD.
I've heard most of the ones that get the jobs from these classroom based studies are the one that put the extra time in and stayed to work after class had ended. I Wouldn't go in there thinking paying $70,000 will get you what you need without putting in the extra effort.
For CG related stuff, im personally against these classroom studies when theres basically soooo much help available online, like here on Polycount, and the other CG sites.
I've learned so much stuff off the many talented people on these boards that think Polycount would do so well making there own teaching literature.
I don't think this is something you that can just go diving head first on, consider the price and the amount of time its gonna cost you to pay it back.
Maybe you can get a different opinion apart from your friend, has i said earlier some people may think that $70,000 is a ticket straight into the industry without putting the work in, i'm not saying he isn't, but more opinions will probably help you make a more informed decision
Something to keep in mind, but if that isn't an issue and you can focus outside of a classroom setting then do the online thing.
That'll be tough without an actual degree, at least in the US. There are quite a few ways to do it, but without a degree you'd likely need 12 years of experience.
You've not said where your from, i assume your Canadian judging from wanting to go to VFS, maybe if you plan to move to the US, as i hear it's quite strict with regards to immigration, but in Europe, it's quite easily to move around due to the EU. Even more so if your Canadian due to the Commonwealth.
Maybe studying Art at your local college and doing 3D stuff at home gives you the best of both if you really want that piece of paper.
So, if you can do it on your own, I would suggest it.
Lol, my friends and family are all concerned about my turning down of college and doubt my art, but I can't wait to see their reaction when I land a job in the game industry that I actually like doing instead of working in a lab drawing blood all day like my parents. Go for the gold and do what you want to in life. Like that saying "find a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
I just loathe the attitude about the absolute necessary need to go to college to succeed. I realize that this industry is out of the ordinary and that a lot of others do require a degree, but I find them shoving this in our face every damn day is annoying as shit.
That being said, I'd strongly recommend NOT putting yourself that deep in debt as it'll probably be a while before you get a job out of school. If you'd doing it JUST to get a piece of paper, it doesn't matter what school it is as long as you get the piece of paper. Meaning, border officials don't know that VFS is a su[er awesome school - for that matter they don't even REALLY know what you do.
From the standpoint of actually 'learning', that's all upto the individual. Most people in this industry don't need to follow the broad curriculum a school would provide and are just fins learning on their own and developing their portfolio while, say, studying something else or working at Kinkos.
The education doesn't guarantee anything and, really, even being the 'best' school for that type of education doesn't put you any further ahead of someone else coming out of school. If your portfolio sucks, that's it. VFS (and other reputable schools) will help you out with networking - but so would a membership to the IGDA, attending GDC and chatting up folks on Polycount.
Pros = Connections / Working Environment / Deadlines / Group Projects / Paper Work for easier aboard work.
Cons = Assholes / Outdated workflows / Teachers who don't know what normal map padding is / Expensive
Online Tutorials/Polycount
Pros = Godhood
Cons = Not meeting your wife/husband on a cig break
If you invested $147,000 for 25 years and earned a 7% average annual return, you would have $800,000.
The industry you want to work in is notorious for not paying overtime and laying employees off regularly. This will often cost you a significant amount of lost income.
The lifestyle of the games industry is also generally poor.
This adds up to a very poor investment.
I would suggest you choose a better career, work on indie projects in your spare time, and take traditional art courses locally. You will probably enjoy a much healthier lifestyle and be better off financially in the long and short term.
Big one for me. I met my wife at VFS, we were in the same class.
On another note, it is very important that you know that you are going to get out of it what you put in. If you don't put in the extra hours you won't get anything out of it. And when I mean extra hours is be there at the very least 12 hours each day every day. Those 70,000 amount to nothing by themselves.
Remember that VFS doesn't offer you a degree, so for legal purposes the certificate they give you it's not very helpful. You will get very good connections out of VFS, a lot my classmates are employed at game companies or VFX studios. So that is always good to have.
Like everyone has said. If that debt is not going to be quite the burden go for it.
Also what level of knowledge you have when it comes to 3d in general? I've noticed that if you are very new to 3d you really won't get the best out of VFS. You will learn a lot there but your reel won't be good enough to land you some jobs.
cheers and good luck and PM me if you have some questions.
This is pretty much the same situation I'm in. I decided not to go to school and although I did attend Futurepoly (A small 3 month program that's very cheap compared to 4 year schools) I'm still mostly self-taught. Motivation is definitely a problem sometimes. It's hard to get yourself to work the amount you need to each day even though you know that the only way you'll improve and progress as an artist is by working more. I believe that once I get over a few motivational humps and learn to focus more I'll be better off for it compared to having gone to a 4 year school where I'd have assignments to keep me in line.
The connections you make is definitely a loss though. As Nordahl said I don't think that's worth the $100,000 in debt though. I haven't met any new contacts (Friends or work related) in person outside of Futurepoly, which I don't really keep in contact with anymore, since I was in High School over a year ago. I just sit on the computer all day working or reading Polycount. I'm still meeting new people on Polycount though and I still have my old friends from High School to play games with over Steam since they're all in Illinois, but it's definitely not the same as being at a school in person surrounded by likeminded people, even if they're completely new to game art.
My family is kind of like this too. After I went to Futurepoly and the Arenanet Artists said I was one of the best students in their classes they're a bit more confident that I will succeed but they definitely used to badger me about getting a job or taking classes at the nearby college when I need to just sit on the computer and work on art.
anyway, it depends, I really love vfs back there, amazing working environment.
and yes. you will find people who spend time working in something after class.
maybe because of the expensive amazing "toys" vfs has there. including all the drawing tool, and sculpting tool.
the best class I ve seen is the class who share each other. it really help.
( like i remember 3d59 guys , these people are monsters lol )
some class are very individualistic, thats a problem, maybe your friend just had class that people keep their secret technique no jutsu for his/her own.
as for degree thing, yes it doesnt give you degree, but in canada, starting from 2010 certificate from vfs is qualified to earn work permit, even before you get a job. that means paperwork thing should be less bothersome ...
last word :
vfs WAS the best school, it still good now, BUT , there are many other education institution that offer good quality or even better than VFS.
thats why , when you saw some vfs student got CGTALK or zbrushcentral , frontpage exposure before, now , i think is much less ...
They gave me a diploma in Modeling, whoop-de-doo.
I don't even put it on my resume since it's so silly. I let my previous work talk for me.
Personally, I'd invest in some online courses - as detailed earlier, and teach yourself, IF you have the determination and will-power to push yourself.
Zack Dembinski
Personally I met quite a few people in the industry going to a community college. Though I didn't take full advantage of it like I should have. One of my instructors was from Dreamworks, one from Disney, another had worked on a couple of feature films. I met some employees of Square and a few from Konami. I even got to attend a couple of presentations by Craig Mullins among other noteworthy concept artists. All that for probably ~$3500.
I actually think you're probably in the best place to make a good impression and great connections with industry people right here on Polycount, for free.
Some related info to consider:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86061
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78406
This.
Polycounters are so amazing at helping each other out as long as you prove you're determined and willing to show people how much you're working at becoming the best artist you can be. If I had the choice between only Polycount or my $55k education at Gnomon then I'd easily take Polycount over Gnomon. This community is literally priceless and there is unlimited knowledge you can gain from it unlike a formal education.
If you really do think you need a formal education then go for it, but I highly recommend being a regular here even if you do.
Start making art and posting it already! This goes for a lot of people I see worried about what to do with their future or education.
I only think it MIGHT be worth it if the money isn't an issue. As in it's already paid for by parents or through the government then its probably worth it to go its not like VFS is ITT tech... Have you seen District 9?
But if its going to mean he basically bought a house without a house to show for it, before he even moves out of his parents basement then well... its a bad idea, especially for a certificate that won't help you land a job elsewhere.
Either way its going to be on him to learn what he needs to learn and demonstrate he has what it takes to deliver. Just having some Gnoman DVD's sitting on your shelf doesn't make you a good FX artist, just like showing up to class doesn't guarantee you a job.
Hez right. VFS and AODt are not really worth spending money on. Instead if you wish to spend money, try Sheridan college. They have good CG programs.
If you want to go really really cheap and learn on your own, try Digital Tutors. you spend approx $500 a year and they will guide you enough for you to be aware of how things work. You will have to improvise and do projects of your own to keep the practice in check after that.
Sheridan college:
http://www.sheridancollege.ca/Programs%20and%20Courses/Full-Time%20Programs/Programs%20A-Z%20Index/Bachelor%20of%20Applied%20Arts%20-%20Animation.aspx
Digital Tutors:
www.digitaltutors.com
lol, ya right, like thats working out for me right? I have to beg people to give me some crit on my work so I know if I am NOT going wrong. Making connections are far out of the question. lol. Make connections.
But it may work for the OP.
sorry for the caps, but man I understand your situation.
If you really want it you'll do it on your own, its a lot harder because you need to be ultra disciplined. But you can do it.
I dont say vfs is a bad school. In fact I heard very good comments about it. But even with that Idont think its worth all that money for what you will really get out.
The only really good point willl be industry contacts for me.
Edit: and for that last one yeah you ve got polycount dude.
Gnomon DVDs, and tons and tons of projects done on your own time actually seem like a super legit way to get a job.
All you need is a hot portfolio to post around to get a job.
I suppose if you're a social butterfly, and are not looking specifically at an art path into the industry, there are benefits to college in terms of networking...
otherwise if you can stay diligent at home with projects (to the point of almost becoming a recluse imo, you almost must give up your social life for awhile to get a lot better) then you could definitely try it out.