I dont know about Australia but I think they would be breaking the law if this happened in the UK.
Its great to see this blatant cavalier/tricky management out in the open written down and exposed by the actual management in emails.
I dont know how they can get away with not paying overtime at all. Just a promise we'll probably pay you in a couple of months. I'm sure there should be a law against that, its a form of bribery. Cant find anything though. Most countrys have a 48 week limit, looks like they were definitely breaking that.
With the lack of animators looks like the talent is not so replaceable as well.
Its like watching idiots destroy their own backyard.
Man, it's been very interesting to watch the events of this fallout unfold. I was honestly surprised that IGN of all people would post that expose but now that Rockstar have distanced themselves from Team Bondi it looks like the article was published with their blessing!
It really is so short-sighted to treat staff with so little respect. Sure, you might just about get your game out of the door - with a major publisher bank-rolling you for years and intervening when things are going off the rails - but there's no way that a positive culture will ever be fostered at such a studio, or that talented,experienced people will want to work there.
Further to my earlier comments - My thoughts are pretty much inline with the Pach.
I watched this video this morning and I think his point of view is pretty pessimistic. People do get paid for overtime in a lot of companies and his way of dealing with the problem(go work as a nurse or something) is pretty extreme. I'm guessing that he, despite saying so, doesn't really know how a game company should be run. Just because it's like this at many other companies it doesn't mean that this is the way it should and will be. Thumbs down to this video!
Man, I love the Pach and I am a big fan of his show, but come on. . . No overtime? Lulz. I'm made plenty of overtime. But some of the stuff he said on this episode seem pretty off.
8:15-8:40ish - I can't say I've heard that thing he mentions, where people don't get paid for their overtime but when the profits come in they get gigantic bonuses (800k per employee he says :shifty:, obviously not that much)
His logic is severely flawed imho, with only specs of validity.
"If you don't like it, go work in a factory. But what's going to happen is it's going to get closed down and you'll be out of work."
Do I really need to go over that one?
^ This!
His bullshit on unions got me pretty much worked up though; if you are working a 100+ hours weekly under constant mental pressure; you are being psychologically abused and you have every fucking right to unionize to combat that. Does it matter if you're a salaried or hourly employee? Unions are there to protect workers from abuse, any kind of abuse.
"If you make a lot of money, you have no right to unionize" I can sort of agree to that to some extent; but this guy has this idea that us game devs make about 100k a year with 800k (lulz) bonuses. Dunno about you guys, but I sure as hell don't even scratch that...
8:15-8:40ish - I can't say I've heard that thing he mentions, where people don't get paid for their overtime but when the profits come in they get gigantic bonuses (800k per employee he says :shifty:, obviously not that much)
Its called bonuses, and it happens in every profession regardless of the industry if you are creating some kinda of product that requires some amount of talent. Most defiantly happens in this industry. Especially large studios only if you are a full time employee and meet the requirements set forth in your original contract for bonuses and such. If your a contract employee you wont get any bonuses or royalties from the game but you are required by law to be paid overtime.
Also the thing with the 800k per employee thing was in reference to IW, not team bondi. You also have to remember that management will always get higher bonuses then lower level staff but the guys working on Call of Duty make bank due to how popular COD is.
I dunno, the profession is really risky if you rely most of your income from bonuses. And it's not like games like call of duty (other than the game itself) guarantee you over 5 million copies either. I'm still looking around for jobs in Australia, but I'm thinking of moving overseas if the industry here doesnt get better. I'm hoping for the new 'innovative technology' scheme the government is planning brings abit of position into the industry here.
At least he always puts "my guess is" in front of his sentences but he appears quite naive. Shame it's people like that guy gamers, who buy our games, listen to.
Its called bonuses, and it happens in every profession regardless of the industry if you are creating some kinda of product that requires some amount of talent. Most defiantly happens in this industry. Especially large studios only if you are a full time employee and meet the requirements set forth in your original contract for bonuses and such. If your a contract employee you wont get any bonuses or royalties from the game but you are required by law to be paid overtime.
Also the thing with the 800k per employee thing was in reference to IW, not team bondi. You also have to remember that management will always get higher bonuses then lower level staff but the guys working on Call of Duty make bank due to how popular COD is.
Ah right so if you are a full employee you'll get bonuses which will pay off the overtime you put in, and if put on a x-month contract then you should demand overtime be paid?
Ah right so if you are a full employee you'll get bonuses which will pay off the overtime you put in, and if put on a x-month contract then you should demand overtime be paid?
Bonuses are not guaranteed money, there's such a long legacy of cutting bonuses to save money it's become a joke - watch National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.
If your a contract employee you wont get any bonuses or royalties from the game but you are required by law to be paid overtime.
I wish this were true. My last 2 jobs were contract and I didnt get a dime of a bonus or any paid overtime at all. infact I didnt even get sick days at my last one, so taking a day off cost me a lil over 250 bucks. there are nice lil loopholes the game industry takes here to avoid paying you anything in regards to overtime. and the second they do have to pay overtime they will just close the studio and move it somewhere they dont have to.
awww can't wait for my bonuses..atleast i hope pach knows what he is talking about...
I think many people from outside the industry still believe that working as a game developer ain't a real job (like "working in a factory where you might lose fingers").
I think many people from outside the industry still believe that working as a game developer ain't a real job (like "working in a factory where you might lose fingers").
Well, better so. Everyone and their great grandma wants in on the game pie now, and the number of people who want to enter the industry with mediocre skillset is astounding, especially people with trained backgrounds from schools, and call me selfish and arrogant prissy little harlot if you will, but many of them make lead without even having the proper skillset nor knowledge to be a lead in the first place.
Basically, what I'm saying is: Go and flood some other industry, last I heard, being a doctor or scientist is nice.
well, ok... but i'm thinking that people don't respect and appreciate so much the kind
of effort going in developing a game, and some of those people might even end up in a game company as manager, producer,etc.
Just the other day i was talking with the HR lady and she said:"I don't understand why you are so stressed about, you're just drawing stuff.Is it hard to do that in 3d?I think I could do that, when I was little I was pretty good with legos ...
I said:Listen bitch!..Why don't you shove your legos..(I actually didn't say anything and got back to work).
And it pisses me off when i see that dude at gametrailers, saying things like stop whinning, and "i have no simpathy for people that ask about overtime"...because it just shows he doesn't take it seriously. Say that in the face of the developers of LA Noire and tell them to just choose another profesion.Is the same thing that McNamara said to them.
YES there are other things harder in the world, there are people starving but come on have a little respect for one's work (if he deserves it).
well, ok... but i'm thinking that people don't respect and appreciate so much the kind
of effort going in developing a game, and some of those people might even end up in a game company as manager, producer,etc.
Just the other day i was talking with the HR lady and she said:"I don't understand why you are so stressed about, you're just drawing stuff.Is it hard to do that in 3d?I think I could do that, when I was little I was pretty good with legos ...
I said:Listen bitch!..Why don't you shove your legos..(I actually didn't say anything and got back to work).
And it pisses me off when i see that dude at gametrailers, saying things like stop whinning, and "i have no simpathy for people that ask about overtime"...because it just shows he doesn't take it seriously. Say that in the face of the developers of LA Noire and tell them to just choose another profesion.Is the same thing that McNamara said to them.
YES there are other things harder in the world, there are people starving but come on have a little respect for one's work (if he deserves it).
Definitely, I guess it's because of chairs. I noticed ANY job that requires you to sit down and do work that doesn't involve money or trains, doesn't get respected.
I say well all throw out our chairs and do out jobs standing...lets see if they will say any of that crap out faces then.
Definitely, I guess it's because of chairs. I noticed ANY job that requires you to sit down and do work that doesn't involve money or trains, doesn't get respected.
I say well all throw out our chairs and do out jobs standing...lets see if they will say any of that crap out faces then.
Were you the one who started the standing desk thread? Eh forget it.
Yeah I hate people saying 'oh all you need to do is make a few objects and its pretty! Whats so hard about it?'
Totally destroys my self esteem too . And especially to people who say that to programmers theyre like, 'oh you just need add a few lines and change stuff, cant be too hard' (Yeah some people actually said that).
Replies
Its great to see this blatant cavalier/tricky management out in the open written down and exposed by the actual management in emails.
I dont know how they can get away with not paying overtime at all. Just a promise we'll probably pay you in a couple of months. I'm sure there should be a law against that, its a form of bribery. Cant find anything though. Most countrys have a 48 week limit, looks like they were definitely breaking that.
With the lack of animators looks like the talent is not so replaceable as well.
Its like watching idiots destroy their own backyard.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-07-05-rockstar-will-not-publish-team-bondis-next-game
It really is so short-sighted to treat staff with so little respect. Sure, you might just about get your game out of the door - with a major publisher bank-rolling you for years and intervening when things are going off the rails - but there's no way that a positive culture will ever be fostered at such a studio, or that talented,experienced people will want to work there.
time to work in retail yeeeeaaayyy!
Further to my earlier comments - My thoughts are pretty much inline with the Pach.
Work a hundred or so hours less a week earn less than the minimum equivalent wage, wahoo!
Do they really earn over a hundred k or so from bonus's?
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-222-pach-attack/717739
Can't say I agree with...anything he says, but that might just be me?
[ame]
^ This!
His bullshit on unions got me pretty much worked up though; if you are working a 100+ hours weekly under constant mental pressure; you are being psychologically abused and you have every fucking right to unionize to combat that. Does it matter if you're a salaried or hourly employee? Unions are there to protect workers from abuse, any kind of abuse.
"If you make a lot of money, you have no right to unionize" I can sort of agree to that to some extent; but this guy has this idea that us game devs make about 100k a year with 800k (lulz) bonuses. Dunno about you guys, but I sure as hell don't even scratch that...
Its called bonuses, and it happens in every profession regardless of the industry if you are creating some kinda of product that requires some amount of talent. Most defiantly happens in this industry. Especially large studios only if you are a full time employee and meet the requirements set forth in your original contract for bonuses and such. If your a contract employee you wont get any bonuses or royalties from the game but you are required by law to be paid overtime.
Also the thing with the 800k per employee thing was in reference to IW, not team bondi. You also have to remember that management will always get higher bonuses then lower level staff but the guys working on Call of Duty make bank due to how popular COD is.
At least he always puts "my guess is" in front of his sentences but he appears quite naive. Shame it's people like that guy gamers, who buy our games, listen to.
Ah right so if you are a full employee you'll get bonuses which will pay off the overtime you put in, and if put on a x-month contract then you should demand overtime be paid?
Bonuses are not guaranteed money, there's such a long legacy of cutting bonuses to save money it's become a joke - watch National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.
http://ilovecrunch.co.uk/
I wish this were true. My last 2 jobs were contract and I didnt get a dime of a bonus or any paid overtime at all. infact I didnt even get sick days at my last one, so taking a day off cost me a lil over 250 bucks. there are nice lil loopholes the game industry takes here to avoid paying you anything in regards to overtime. and the second they do have to pay overtime they will just close the studio and move it somewhere they dont have to.
I think many people from outside the industry still believe that working as a game developer ain't a real job (like "working in a factory where you might lose fingers").
hope slipgate won't mind:)
Well, better so. Everyone and their great grandma wants in on the game pie now, and the number of people who want to enter the industry with mediocre skillset is astounding, especially people with trained backgrounds from schools, and call me selfish and arrogant prissy little harlot if you will, but many of them make lead without even having the proper skillset nor knowledge to be a lead in the first place.
Basically, what I'm saying is: Go and flood some other industry, last I heard, being a doctor or scientist is nice.
of effort going in developing a game, and some of those people might even end up in a game company as manager, producer,etc.
Just the other day i was talking with the HR lady and she said:"I don't understand why you are so stressed about, you're just drawing stuff.Is it hard to do that in 3d?I think I could do that, when I was little I was pretty good with legos ...
I said:Listen bitch!..Why don't you shove your legos..(I actually didn't say anything and got back to work).
And it pisses me off when i see that dude at gametrailers, saying things like stop whinning, and "i have no simpathy for people that ask about overtime"...because it just shows he doesn't take it seriously. Say that in the face of the developers of LA Noire and tell them to just choose another profesion.Is the same thing that McNamara said to them.
YES there are other things harder in the world, there are people starving but come on have a little respect for one's work (if he deserves it).
Definitely, I guess it's because of chairs. I noticed ANY job that requires you to sit down and do work that doesn't involve money or trains, doesn't get respected.
I say well all throw out our chairs and do out jobs standing...lets see if they will say any of that crap out faces then.
Yeah I hate people saying 'oh all you need to do is make a few objects and its pretty! Whats so hard about it?'
Totally destroys my self esteem too
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/report-team-bondi-sells-assets-and-ip