Are 3ds Max's Modeling Tools Good Enough for Us?
polycounter lvl 12
I'm a modeler/programer and I'm looking to improve 3ds max modeling tools so I'm asking you fellow modelers a few questions.
1) What frustrates you the most using 3ds max as a modeling application?
2) What existing tool do you like the most?
3) How much would you pay for modeling 10x times faster and having 10x more control over the mesh?
Fill in the poll and Answer some or all the question above to help me give you what you want.
Thanks you.
1) What frustrates you the most using 3ds max as a modeling application?
2) What existing tool do you like the most?
3) How much would you pay for modeling 10x times faster and having 10x more control over the mesh?
Fill in the poll and Answer some or all the question above to help me give you what you want.
Thanks you.
Replies
What alot of folks on PC do is condense the modeling tools into what Perna calls 'smart functions' take similar tools and merge them into context sensitive functions.
look at silo if you want to see this done well.
Right now I'm focusing on creating some useful modeling tools. Yeah max's modeling tools are great and I don't intend to replace them, but there is room for other more task specific tools.
I agree that Silo has a great way of working, and of customizing. After using it I went back to max and worked it over as best I could, sped me up 30-40%.
The lack of context sensitive functions really kills max. Most people that get into it end up highly customizing keyboard shortcuts and building UI's that house the tools they use the most. Which is a giant pain in the ass when they roll out a new version of max every year...
The most common problems I see and the biggest roadblocks would be:
High poly edge reinforcement. We have an entire thread that is pretty much showing people how to add supporting geometry.
It also doesn't help that Chamfering a corner gives triangular results, so you end up doing 4-5 other steps to get supporting edges that gives you quad results.
On the left: Selecting edges, clicking ring, clicking connect and adjusting settings, wash rinse repeat 2 more times to get all the supporting edges you need. Long process but gives the evenly quaded results on the corners, minus the relax effect but you get that if you're using meshsmooth/turbosmooth.
On the right: Select all, chamfer with edges set to 2, nearly identical results but the relax is slightly wonky and it created 2 tris where a quad should be.
But Chamfer gives the same result just remove the tri-edges or run quadify. Thats fine but you still have the issue of the slightly wonky corner because the way it was built, which has to be manually corrected.
The problem gets worse if you chamfer with more than 2 edges, because the way it creates the corner, it really makes a triangular nightmare that turbosmooths like piss.
It seems like there would be a simple built in solution to chamfer, preserve quads and not have to take 2 dozen steps to clean up the results.
Poly reduction based on quads not tris. So far to date all of the optimizers run on tris and make a mess out of nicely quad-ed meshes. I'm sure there is some crazy complex mathmatical reason for this but really the old triangle based tools really need to fully support the quad workflow, fully.
Those are the ones I can think of. I have 5-6 "fix these now!" issues for animation but we're not talking about that
Max never sheds any weight - there's so much crap left in there that's outdated legacy nonsense that it gets bigger and clunkier with each version released.
So your questions;
1) What frustrates you the most using 3ds max as a modeling application?
Everything being hidden in scrolly, rolled-up menus. Selection method always selecting the thing beside or behind or the other side of what your cursor is actually on top of. UVing being totally disconnected from the mesh you're modeling.
2) What existing tool do you like the most?
Ehr. Biped's quite useful.
3) How much would you pay for modeling 10x times faster and having 10x more control over the mesh?
$995? But really, as an individual I'd be loathe to pay much more than $50 for a Max modeling plugin.
so i agree with the rest. if you are going to make anything to improve max, PLEASE do quad chamfer.
1) What frustrates you the most using 3ds max as a modeling application?
graphite and caddies. everything else about the new max versions are great except for these blinged out pieces of crap. graphite has some nice tools but because they are not integrated well into the editable poly toolset i have avoided using them altogether. caddies are just useless gucci and they need to be removed. there is no need to "improve" on something like this.
2) What existing tool do you like the most?
lots of the modifiers are very useful. i use tons of symmetry, ffd, edit poly etc.
3) How much would you pay for modeling 10x times faster and having 10x more control over the mesh?
on top of the 3ds max price: $50-$100 tops. anything more than that and i could just buy silo or something.
UI
High poly edge reinforcement.
Poly reduction based on quads not tris
I think $50-$100 is the sweet spot for a fantastic modeling aid. PolyBoost was $150 and it seemed that everyone bought that. But now most of that is integrated into the Ribbon.
In maya or silo you can edit your mesh with subdiv on and see the flow in the same fashion as isoline in max but the selection are really the isoline. In max everying is offset and when you think you're on a vert you're actualy 30 pixels away from it.
I know i can (and I do!) use contril cages but then again someone at autodesk thought it would be cool if the vert could sunk in the surface of your mesh rendering selection as difficult as isoline display only...
In short: smooth wire control cage or topogun wire (you know like it is always on top no matter what)!
Also what's this joke with selection hilighting only working when end results is not active ?
About the poll: I'm ready to pay 100$ if the results are convincing, price is not a problem if you can somehow fill the gap between max ergonomics and silo ergonomics :>
If you really want to make money writing plugins the Modo community is pretty starved for them atm. Recoil was just released by a single developer at $200 per license and appears to be doing well.
One plugin that always comes up in conversations on the Luxology forum is LWCAD, but last I heard the developer working on it didn't have the time to do a port to Modo. You could do a clone of it (or contact the developer and work out a porting deal) and probably make a small fortune.
I think a foliage plugin would be hugely popular as well but I believe someone is already working on one.
Anyway, price range? Depends alot on the tool mind you, I would say the tool to study in this case has to be PolyBoost, because that is a perfect example of a tool that you know, WORKED and was integrated directly in Max, with a reasonable price range, as opposed to say...oh I don't know this?
http://www.vg2max.spb.ru/EdgeChEx.htm
I mean no offense to the author/team who worked on this tool, but it's horrendous the price tag vs. the usefullness of the tool. 41$ for a tool that adds support loops to my mesh? It's not even a polished tool mind you, half of the time, clicking the same slider and options will net me different results. I sometimes need to restart Max several times before the modifier decided to work, thank Rapture and Andrew Ryan that I didn't buy this tool, or else I would have strangled myself with rabbit ears to say the least.
Another example of a tool to study is Wrapit, another tool that adds more streamlined options while expanding by itself on Max. Wrapit is interesting because it allows you to use the Max Ribbon tools and Standard tools, WHILE it's active without a hitch and has streamlined the way it works, essentially condensing the complications of the Ribbon and Material editor to something useful in realtime.
Again, it's depends alot on what your skills are, how you plan on integrating things in Max, and what they're capable of, and what price range they're in.
My only complaints with the tools are in its UV editor (which Maya's are superior in every way) If it wasn't for Textools i'd probably just throw my models back into Maya to UV them. This looks like it has been "updated" in the latest version of max though with a newly refreshed UI. Still need to try that out.
The tools I like the most is the cut tool. Seriously, If you've ever used the split polygon tool in Maya you'd understand why the cut tool is so awesome. Booleans are also an amazing feature.
As to your last question, I think the answer is $500 and its called zbrush.
I will do some tests when I will finish the tools and see what models I can make with them (this is what really matters, useful tools that bring results, not just eye-Candis/caddies
http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/edgefinder
The script adds support loops, with you inputting the distance of the loops, and creates tesselation over larger polygons, meaning it creates a semblance of proper SD.
Moreover, you can bake your edge maps and yadda yadda yadda. It's a free script, and does all that, now compare this to that 41$ script, and you'll see what kind of challenge there is.
Any other requests?
Do you mean Pixar's Subd Surfaces?
Will see what I can do about it.
Also whoever gives a script suggestion and I will make that script will get the script for free.
Either in 3ds or preferably in an external program, so non-3ds users could buy it.
[ame]
"Using 2d physics on Uv shells I believe uv packing can be automated with a much better result than current UV packers.
The Idea is you would be able to control the amount of padding each shell recieves, and the option of softbody instead of rigid body so other objects can better conform to the uv space at the cost of some distortion.
For softbodies a weightmap could be manually painted or derived from the vertex based curvature or ambient occlusion of the model.
Heavier meshes could be optimized by using an automatically created lower resolution cage to deform the uv's or by freezing uv shells."
and what about mirroring UV's or overlapping UV's which are common on more modular things.
About the second part, If parts of the uv could be frozen transitionally I guess it could also be possible to freeze them only on their rotation so they maintain their readability yet can still be pushed around. With the advent of programs like Zbrush and 3dcoat UV real-estate is becoming increasingly important.
Thanks for mentioning these problems.
I like the number of plugins and scripts available for max, the community is big and there is some really cool stuff on scriptspot. Also I use a lot soulburn scripts, that helps a lot.
I recently started using XSI for modeling, and being a 3ds max user since I started, I thought it was going to be a hard transition. And so it was for the first week. But now I feel that XSI has a looot of power, very intuitive modeling tools, and also some processes (selections) that I find to work faster than max. Now I am not an XSI fanboy blablabla... but I am sure liking it, a lot.
some stuff I like:
To ring or loop in max I need to (ALT + R / ALT + L) which is still fast. But in xsi is simply, select and edge, alt+middle click. Done. Ring and loops. And then right click ->select adjacent, to select a polygon loop selection. That feels intuitive.
then there is the swift loop tool in max 2010+ , Altough is cool, I dont like the big square appearing. In XSI I simply select any edge. "ALT+ S" (my shortcut) and I have a split edge tool active, then I just select any edge while using the tool, and do middle click. that inserts an edge loop. this works fast as hell.
Then another remarkable one is the "tweak component" tool. While using it I can move (tweak) any vertex, edge or polygon. Without needing to select 1,2, 4. It is context sensitive. So if you pass close to a vertex, edge, or polygon it ll understand thats what you need to move.
So in resume I think max is still great, but I think it could take a lot of advantage from other 3d package systems out there.
You can do this in max. Just go to "Selection" rollout in Modify panel and in Preview Selection box check "Multi".
Can't say I have, it's fast on my side and plus, so far for me, Shaders only works in Max 2009 properly, so I have no idea on why it would be slow.