Character Model - Kid - Need Advice with Reference

Bombshell · May 2011

I've been looking through the forum, admiring intricate works and basic works, great textures, environments, characters, etc. etc.
But its made me think of my stuff and I'm not as good as I wish I could be. To try and work at the level I've seen on these forums I draw up a character design and started modelling but I can't seem to get it right, I've completely skews away from the shape and style of my character.

I was wondering if anyone could help me, give me some tips on working with an indirect reference. (If my terminology is confusing, by indirect I just mean a reference were I cannot tracing the shape.)

Here is the design I'm using as reference:

Old Pics:
http://imageshack.us/m/840/8145/kido.png
http://imageshack.us/m/405/8114/kid00.png

Here is the model atm, Ortho:

Perspective:

LMP · May 2011

That's a design? I don't see how you're going to make a character out of that. You lack anything that will give you the proportional relationships you need to effectively model it.

Bombshell · May 2011

sorry my mistake, I forgot to put up the pic I'm using for proportion.
Its updated now, the initial design is what I intend to use for detail.

MoreDread · May 2011

well there really isn't much to see, hard to say how that would help with modeling it.
theres really no detail in it. i'm not saying that what you drew looks bad.. its just that it seems to be the very first step of creating your reference.

i mean you can't really model a 3d shape without at least a hint of shadows that give you an idea of what shape its supposed to be.

xxsunflowerxx · May 2011

Say NO to "mitten" hands! They are not something you want to model. I totally agree with the people above. You should spend more time nailing down your concept before you dive back into your 3d model. Cannot wait to see what ya come up with.

Bombshell · May 2011

there was 1 major problem that seems to have fixed itself in redrafting the design, with the models shape in my head the redraft ended up looking more like the model than what I originally intended. But that also turns out for the better as now the shape looks right on the model.
Here is the redraft of the design. I don't feel comfortable colouring it as that is my weak point.

Any better?

Bombshell · May 2011

the new design did make it a lot easier to follow shape and proportion,
I'm rather happy with how the model is turning out, any tips on topology, proportion, whatever?

MoreDread · May 2011

move the whole head back quite a bit. right now it looks like the neck would have a hard time supporting its weight.

Bombshell · May 2011

thanks for pointing that out

better?

ceebee · May 2011

Don't be afraid to use multiple pieces. It doesn't need to be a watertight mesh. Also you don't seem to be matching the drawing you made with the chest armor as it is now.

Bombshell · May 2011

I prefer working with 1 mesh, if I use 2 objects in blender it becomes a pains switching in and out all the time. If I use 2 meshes in 1 object I find it difficult to grab the right vertices when messing with the model.
Also with the Armour I have notices I need to make room for the circles in between the plates and make the plates come to more of a point.
I've already modeled the 2 skull buckles on the shoulders, as for the back, the chest plate is only intended as a chest plate, behind it is the rest of the robe that can be see around his legs.
Main thing concerning me atm is the hands and arms, the arms I can't help but feel are off some how, but I can't quite see what it is yet. The hands I'm just terrible at hands in general XD. its hard to get good topo on them.

Thanks for pointing out the chest-plate else I might have forgotten about the plates under it needing to be slightly pointed.
If you notice anything else or need to elaborate on something I might have overlooked, please say

this model is meant to be my first cosmetic piece, the first model made for bragging rights and so I want it to be my best.

MoreDread · May 2011

the head still needs to be pulled back juuuust a bit more, but its better already.

the arms look weird because theres no real hint at the muscles... its just sortof .. well..

the wrists shouldn't be bigger than the upper arm, and i think you could get a better topology on the shoulders by redoing it in the following way.

delete the whole arm, so only a hole remains in the upperbody.

i usually use either a 8 or 12 sided circle for that, so tweak your topology accordingly (depending on how much detail you need)
now comes the important part.
select the hole and extrude outward on the X axis 3 times. then fill the remaining hole with faces and delete the faces at the bottom of your extruded geometry.
then extrude the arm in a 45° angle downwards, thats easier to rig and animate later, use 3 segments for upper and forearm.. that way you get enough geometry to really get the shapes of the individual muscles going, but its not too much either.

if you just extrude the arm out straight like that and use a T-pose you'll have too much geometry in the armpit area and it'll be hard to get it to deform right in a normal standing pose.

Bombshell · May 2011

2 updates,
mild colouring on the design and a fix on the hand

and an update on the model, looking better?

EDIT: slight anatomical correction

Old Pic:
http://imageshack.us/m/151/2286/screen01oc.png

MoreDread · May 2011

ok good job, now just move the chin back a bit and you're all set to continue with adding the missing parts

Bombshell · May 2011

I've updated the model,
I have 2 pains in the ass and 3 pieces of fun ahead of me!
The Hands and The Boots will be a massive pain, hands always are but these boots... well looking at the reference pic you'll get the idea.
the 3 pieces of fun are the skull codpiece and buckles, the weapon and then the texturing!
I do intend on making a high poly in zBrush to add more detail to the hair and the clothing and etc. etc.
After that all I need is to rig it and get it ready for animating, I think this will be the model I use to test my new engine, I'm almost done with the deferred renderer which is a pain in the ass to learn, it will be great to try my best model with it.
Ortho:

Perspective:

Thanks for the help guys

if there is still anything wrong or anything that could be improved let me know,
else I will continue to update this topic as the model and textures progress, purely for journaling sake,
Thanks for reading,
Bombshell

konstruct · May 2011

I think the problem lies in your concept. If your going to use it as just some sort of idea to get the ball rolling then your probably going to be okay. When you use concepts that are off- like the one here then your going to fighting a looong uphill battle trying to dial in stuff like anatomy and proportion. If you're learning to model, model from ref that is as accurate as possible. Modeling from a busted concept- most often times than not result in a busted model.

Also- modeling all with 1 mesh might seem like the right- "pure" way to model at first- but you`ll realize once you start modeling anything semi-complex that all that topology ends up working against you. Its best to seperate things so you have more control over each individual part.

Separate elements = the right way

Bombshell · May 2011

well the concept is of my own design (obviously) and so I know what I am aiming for, the concept is purely to visualize and compare against, I don't need to get it perfect to the concept drawing, only to the point where the character is recognizable.
With the multi-mesh model point I think I know what you mean, it was especially difficult to maintain topology when moving from neck to body, body to legs and now arms to hands. The shapes of different body parts are not often easy to make using the same shaped loops as the connection parts.
"if your learning to model" well this needs a bit of context, I can model to some degree but I am intending to become much better at modelling to the point where I could be considered professional (I know I have a lot of work to go, but I'm making games single handedly so if I can't make the models there won't be any.)

How would you suggest I split this model should I choose to restart it?
and what programs would fit what parts?
I have zBrush, Adobe CS4 Collection (little relevance but I thought worth noting) and Blender at my disposal. I have come across some tutorials and or comments suggesting a very low poly base in a modelling program (such as blender) then a high poly sculpt in zBrush, then return to the modelling program for a re-topologizing. Is this a good technique? I can't help but shake the feeling it would slow the rate at which I learn to be a better 3D Game artist.

konstruct · May 2011

No I get it- your model already deviates a ton from the concept. I was just looking at the head- with its bent perspective and the weird, elongated jaw line, and how that was coming through in the model. Theres a muscle there that I used to miss all the time too-

As far as what should be a separate model- The answer is: "what makes sense to be a separate model" Think of it as making a puppet- if you were making a pupped in real life, what could parts all need to be continuous? and what parts could simply just hang off of the puppet. You have to consider how it deforms first and foremost. where do loops need to be so it can bend properly? What objects can simply just be rigidly bound to a bone? modeling is like solving a ton of little puzzles. The least complex that puzzle is- the faster you can solve it.

I cant tell you what programs you need to use. people can get amazing results no matter what apps they use. The only advice I can give on that is 3dsmax seems to be pretty choice as an "out of the box" product. Its going to have all the stuff you need, right off the bat. Maya seems to be better for animation, but as a modeler max seems to be the king (unless you work at ID and use Modo :P)

Imo- dont touch zbrush until you can knock it out of the park with traditional modeling. People would dispute me on that, but I find you need to have a super solid grasp on what normal tangancy is all about before your aloud to run amuck with z-brush. At the end of the day- your putting a lowpoly model into a game engine and not a z-brush model. Game ready meshes carry constraints than need attention in terms of how you work around them. Learn that- then apply those learning's to a HP sculpt.

The thing about this field (or really any field in life)- the more you know, the more you realize you dont know. I see that your trying to do some engine code on the side- Thats all well and good but that's a completely different field, and here you are standing at the precipice of the game art ravine. The time you spend getting good at this- is time spent away from other stuff- you can get good at this, its just going to take some focus.

Bombshell · May 2011

thanks for the help and yeah I noticed a problem with the jaw a while back but that was problem that came from me blindly modeling (when I was working with my older references) When I redrew the concept the shape of the model was in my head so it was more the models problems bled into the concept, but that was only head and neck related.
The separated models I'll give it a go, I'm assuming head, neck / torso pelvis / legs (in this case robes) / arms / hands. I'd put the arms and hands in 1 model but they have very little relation in shape and its one of the points where topology won't carry over without a fight.
The zBrush point, thats exactly what I was thinking and I completely agree.

thanks for all the help,
I'll give it another go tomorrow and posted up when I feel I've caught back up to the current model.

awesome welles · May 2011

i like the concept so far its got potential you just need to look at tons of pictures of kids and other art based around kids its quite hard to get right god knows theres loads of things id like to go in and change on my models you commented on but the major thing so far is head shape eye size and arm size

the arms almost look like toy arms there far to large for a child especially the biceps alos try roughing out your concept in zbrush first dont worry about the detail yet or even the final mesh just get a really nice silloutte in zbrush first basic model, then put detail into his body and face then start to dress him you will be much happier with how much room for change you will have compared to making the whole basemesh first,

i hate to be patronising but if your not sure about topopgun or anything like that so far then you should get sure life is alot easyer retopping a perfect highpoly,

think of it as a grown up dot to dot :P

Bombshell · May 2011

I've actually decided to restart this mesh, I'm keeping the head, as I worked to hard on it and its pretty much how I wanted the head. I've made a separate mesh for the chest plate. And I intend on making separate meshes for all pars, arms, robe, body, feet, all sculpt friendly, then go nuts in zBrush.

Character Model - Kid - Need Advice with Reference

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