Skilled young artists, and their desire to work as freelance?
polycounter lvl 8
I've seen lately many young artists who are looking for a job (I'm guessing ages around 17) I don't think it's bad, I used to get paid to do things in photoshop when I was younger by people that knew me well; also, it's really great they can practice and make some quick bucks, perhaps money they can use to pay for software or education.
But what about the risk from the employer side? There's already a risk when hiring freelancers that you don't know well.
I'm unsure whether its smart or not hiring a guy who you are trusting to help you meet a deadline, while he might be the kind of kid that likes typing 'lolololol' on threads, do you know where I'm getting at? It's not like you could even sign a contract, so you're purely on a trust basis.
I think every artist should be paid well for their time, so I rather not hire someone at all than paying less, no matter what age they are.
Even if on account of skill he or she is rather decent, can you trust a teenager to do some actual work? What are your experiences? Should age even matter?
But what about the risk from the employer side? There's already a risk when hiring freelancers that you don't know well.
I'm unsure whether its smart or not hiring a guy who you are trusting to help you meet a deadline, while he might be the kind of kid that likes typing 'lolololol' on threads, do you know where I'm getting at? It's not like you could even sign a contract, so you're purely on a trust basis.
I think every artist should be paid well for their time, so I rather not hire someone at all than paying less, no matter what age they are.
Even if on account of skill he or she is rather decent, can you trust a teenager to do some actual work? What are your experiences? Should age even matter?
Replies
It should be the same approach on both sides of the freelancing job; no contracty = no worky.
If you're looking to get work completed on time, every time, to a high quality level of execution, I'd always go with the guy that has a proven track record, and the experience. Will save you headaches and stress, in the long run. And it'll take away the need to micro-manage, which'll free up your time.
If you're looking at giving a specific young gun a shot, why not give him a simple task as an art test, and see how it goes?
And what James said. Contracts, contracts, contracts. Even if you write it yourself. Make sure it covers your artist's role, tasks, deadlines, payment. Have him put his mark on it, so you both know where you both stand.
I don't start any work until a contract has been signed by both parties. If there isn't a contract involved, there's nothing stopping either party from bolting without finishing the project, or without getting paid.
As for entering a contract with a minor, I've no idea. Never worked with a minor. A bit of digging should give you an answer to that.
Good luck
A contract, for me, isn't about being legally bound. You do get that, but it's more about getting someone to sign something so you know they're on the same page as you (pardon the pun) with the important stuff, in regards to what is expected to complete the contract, and when the money is expected to be transferred.
Basically:
1. Figure out what the client needs.
2. Send an estimate/quote, with payment terms, licensing options, deadline, binding fee, etc.
3. Revise/agree to the quote.
4. Everyone signs a contract, agreeing to the quote.
Get all that sorted out before you start any work, and you won't ever have to stress out about any of that stuff when the project starts
I never bothered with contracts. My freelance work was based on trust. I got burned a couple times, but also developed some great relationships with clients.
A bit like loving your car so much, you drive without a seatbelt.
Contracts don't stop you from having great relationships with clients
Just keep this in mind:
The problem is that the sums of money involved are too small to make it worth suing over, so it is kind of a waste of time. Personally, I would not work with people who did things that were totally irrational.
A lot of people are out there to play Jr. Business Man. I only worked with people trying to get shit done.
As I said, above, it's not about being legally bound, for me. It's about getting everyone pointed at the same goals, and making sure everyone understands what the project is.
Put all that in the quote. Sign a contract agreeing to the quote. Bam. No need for trust. No likelihood of getting burned. No sense in not doing it, for the 15 mins it takes to write a quote, and the 2 minutes it takes to send a contractual agreement over.
Silly not to do it, when you're making a living from it.
What if they decide to not pay you?
They're contractually bound. If they tried to duck a payment, you'd have the signed contract with which to regain your losses.
Thankfully, I've never had a problem with a client not trying to pay me since I've started using contracts. I have been burned without contracts, when I started up being a full-time freelancer.
I also get clients to pay a binding fee, which can be anything from 10-50% of the project cost. I do no work until I get that binding fee, so I know they're serious.
If it's repeat work, and I've already worked for them, I don't need to bother with a binding fee, because I've usually worked up a rapport with them, and we've a good working relationship.
At the end of the day, it comes down to always being better safe than sorry. Even if you're only working on a small project. Especially if you're working a bigger project, where there is a good sum and long periods of your time being potentially risked
The biggest thing, as has already been said, is getting both people knowing what's going to be done. So I re-used an assignment sheet, with a list of things I had to do, a due date, etc. Admittedly pay didn't come into consideration, but generally if you
a) know the people
and
b) they like what you did
then they tend to find tickets to shows/exhibitions/etc.
Contracts don't magically guarantee you will be paid. The reality is that you have to waste a lot of time and money using lawyers, basically to prove you are a bigger asshole than the people who didn't pay you, if you want your contract to be enforced. If you really want to sue people you can just use email and chat logs, which are admissible at least in the US. If you are in the US and your client is outside the US, good luck enforcing a contract. I hope you can afford international lawyers to get that $500 you are owed.
If I was dealing with some large faceless company I would probably get a contract, but making a big deal about it seems kind of silly.
It'd help if you read what I wrote there, fella. You seem to be missing every point I've raised.
I don't think I've ever worked on a $500 project, which is probably why we see things differently and're butting heads, here.
Then again, I can only talk about my ongoing freelancing experience.
I take my work seriously. I also take getting paid seriously. Haven't been fucked out of a single payment since I put a contract together and started using it. So it's not that you're wrong. If you're only working £500 projects, and that's your week's work or whatever, then you can probably afford to be lax about it. Even so. Do you want to continue that work, with the risk of losing $500 for 20 minutes of writing a document?
If you're spending 2 months on an $8k project, you'd probably be less inclined to risk wasting all that time and money by not getting them to read over your terms, and agree to it with a signature.
In my work situation, it's incredibly silly not to use a contract, for the multiple reasons I've provided above.
I've had no one try to bail out of paying me, since I've started using contracts. That's the long and short of it. Most of my clients are not from my current country of residence. I've worked for startups, to international corporations. There's no such thing as a faceless corp to me, as I always deal with, you know, people :P
Any way. I'll stop going on, now, unless there's anything else to add later.
To anyone else starting out as a freelancer. Be safe, not sorry. Don't get needlessly conned out of a substantial amount of time and money, just because you can't be bothered spending 20 minutes at the start of a project, to remove 95% of the risk of being fucked over.
It seems much better protection to me to bill clients in smaller increments than to have an unenforceable contract.
I would call any company "faceless" where I have not dealt directly with the owner of the company. If the person you are dealing with is not ultimately responsible and in control of what happens on his end I think it makes a lot of sense to get a contract.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collection_agency
They're cheaper than lawyers since they usually work off a percentage of the amount owed. They're considered standard business practise for many businesses from construction, to banks, to video rental.
However if you have no written contract they'll probably not accept your business.
Yeah, there's always the chance you'll get burned but (from my own experience) you'll get burned far, far less often when there's a contract sat there with both signatures on.
So - you want to get burned on that $500 job and have no legal ground to fall back on or do you want to get burned on that $500 job and be able to take and threaten properly legit legal action to get your money?
And if you're rich enough to shrug off a $500 loss, you've no real need to be contracting stuff anyway :P
I think you're (Ninjas) under some sort of fallacy that you'll have a better relationship with a client if it's all kept above board by mutual trust rather than a contract and mutual trust.
No. Here is what I do think -- that if you feel you need a contract to protect you from a shifty client, it is better just not to work with that person.
$500 is really not that much-- like a day or two of work maybe, depending on how the pay is set up.
I'm not actually giving advice. I don't care at all how you guys run your contract work. I'm just saying what I have done, and how it has worked out for me.
[edit]
Collection agency is actually an interesting idea.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932102158]Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines [/ame]
I was watching a designer talk about contracts the other day. He mentioned that he adds a clause in the contract, stating that the client will cover the Collection Agency costs if they don't pay. Has anyone here used a similar clause?
As I mentioned before, I am not giving advice. Advice uses words like "ought" or "should". Here is an example: "maybe you should work on your reading skills."
I am just talking about my years of contract art experience, but I guess that is not very interesting to serious professional artists like you guys.
I don't really see how wanting to be paid what you're owed proves you are a bigger asshole...
It's cool if what you're doing works for you, but contracts are not only for you. It's also there to protect your client because it holds you accountable for delivering what you agreed upon. Rather than a sign of mistrust, contracts can be seen as a sign of good faith because both parties are putting their reputations on the line, in a manner of speaking.
There is no 'emotional' tie ins or people being dicks for getting a contract signed when it comes to 'professional' work. Heck i know people who get you to fill out information for a 50$ art commission, it's just protecting and ensuring both parties get what they want and not screwed.
Whether they sign it and you still get burned, or you sign it and not get them the product and they get burned; at least you have a fighting chance of getting your money back if you choose to pursue it.
I know in Canada and the U.S. they have small claims courts, which don't cost very much to go too, however I am not sure how over sea's dealings work.
In any event, whether you've been burned before or not, it's good practice to get into contracts and contract signing between parties when dealing with paid work. It takes 2 minutes, and it's not offensive in any manner to either party. If they won't sign, then it's probably not something you should be pursuing anyway.
Bringing this back to the original post, since this dipped into side track mode, Dogzer, it really depends.
Do you know the teenager? are they a complete stranger? Do they have previous or trackable work experience or credibility for anything? If not, and they are too young to sign a contract, i'd be hesistant to employ someone too young to enter into a contract.
You see way too many court episodes on TV showing people entering into deals with a minor and getting burned. You want to pay them what they deserve, and unless you know the people, and know they are trust worthy, you could be costing yourself a lot of money that you can never get back.
You could, get their parents to sign on behalf saying that if the child doesn't do the work, you can sue the parents to pay you then they go after their kid's for not adhering to the debt.
But again...I'm all for younger people looking for work, but it's best I think with freelance over seas or 'online' to be dealt with, with someone 18 years or older, old enough to sign a contract. This still won't solve the issue of 'trust' but at least you have something to use to try and get your money back.
No offense to the younger then 18 year old job pursuers, I just really believe you should always protect yourself, and employer's should protect themselves with contracts. That's the best advice I think.
Contracts are not anything personal, they are for protection of the parties.
This is a good point. Because your client probably already has a lawyer (or a whole legal team) and way more resources than you, they will be able to fuck you over a minor infraction of a contract while you will struggle to enforce even major parts of the contract.
My reputation is always on the line. You don't need a contract for that.