Do we really even need this convo, guys? At the end of the day, hes done or said nothing wrong as far as I can see. Hes made art way better than what was presented in the game, but really with the same confines. The times hes used a higher res texture, thats just for his own eye really, but pretty sure he could simply resize them.
The facts are simply; He did a better job, and is doing a better job, than a large team of people. End of story.
If thats REALLY a bad thing that shouldn't be talked about just incase the artists get hurt and don't hire somebody then... What does that actually say about the dev team? Any team worth its salt constantly wants to improve, do better, and quite frankly the art in Bethesda titles pre Skyrim (and even quite a bit then, too) was sub-standard. We let them off, simply because of the scale of the game world. making so much, you must make it easier, you just can't do amazing work all the time in games that large, and I don't think we will see that for a long time.
But shunning his work and saying its not to be spoke about, JUST because its better than something else, seems a bit... Well, silly. If I was the art director there, I would think "well, ok, clearly hes making assets quick enough for a single guy, clearly they are miles better... What can we learn here?" and then educate the team as best as I can on this, hoping that some of it sticks. I wouldn't get pissy because his art was better and then black list him from ever wanting a job with me... That screams a bit dictator to me.
Lets just leave him doing what hes doing, and doing great I might add... That is, lets leave him making art, and showing it to a community full of artists for feedback, for free, to improve titles he loves.
Lets just leave him doing what hes doing, and doing great I might add... That is, lets leave him making art, and showing it to a community full of artists for feedback, for free, to improve titles he loves.
Nobody is shunning his work Odium, what I'm seeing is people really showing their bad side in this thread - saying stuff about the original art that they wouldn't say if it was a member posting for critique.
carry on as you where I'll make a seperate discussion.
Would it hurt, though? He could go on in the interview, say "here's how I improved your assets"? Or would the leads/artists get butthurt? No offense meant, sincere question.
It's not a matter of butthurt, it's a matter of dealing with ego. If you come into a company acting like everyone else is a shitty artist, despite not having any understanding of the constraints they were working under (for example, the memory constraints that have them using lower resolution textures than you are, or the obvious time crunch that is involved in a game like this), you're going not going to come off as a team player who is wanting to work with other people, you're going to come across as a primadonna prick. I know a guy personally who didn't get a job because while he did great work he also had that "you guys don't know what you're doing" attitude.
It's possible to work on a beauty mod and not come across as a dick, but making comparisons, but trash talking their work is not going to win you any favors, ever. Even if it looks like balls. The folks here posting "Obsidian must be full of shitty artists" are burning bridges needlessly. Comments like this:
Thanks mang, certainly took a while! These models aren't the most pleasant to work with lol :poly142:
certainly don't help, either.
The reality is that while Millenia's textures are better looking, he also has no time constraints and relaxed technical constraints, and he's breaking the consistency of the world in the process. Given the chance to work on PC only with no minimum hardware requirements and infinite time,I'm sure any Obsidian artist would do better than what they shipped with.
I've shipped plenty of art that wasn't my best work ever because that's how you ship.
The facts are simply; He did a better job, and is doing a better job, than a large team of people. End of story.
If thats REALLY a bad thing that shouldn't be talked about just incase the artists get hurt and don't hire somebody then... What does that actually say about the dev team?
yeah dude totally he's doing a way better job than a huge team of people. In months he's finished a handful of textures, meanwhile they were building gigs of data under time and hardware constraints that Millenia is ignoring.
Let's not forget he's not even modeling these things.
Millenia's work is great. The attitude is something he needs to spend legitimate time on improving and shaping his presentation. It's great that he loves Fallout and Skyrim and wants to work at Bethesda or Obsidian and make awesome games. That should be the focus and the reason he puts forth for doing this, not "because I can do better than them!"
Let the quality of your work stand on it's own, without tearing down someone else's work. Then, when you get to Bethesda, share your workflow and techniques and teach.
Tearing someone's stuff down doesn't make your work better in comparison.
Honestly, I'd really like to see Millenia do more modeling and less texture re-work, because the number of dedicated texture positions at companies is woefully small, and it would let him fix things like the picatinny rail on the carbine being a series of boxes rather than elongated hexagons.
e: it's really important to remember whenever you post here, that for every vocal poster at X studio, there are a dozen lurkers. I was amazed at how many folks here at Volition were polycounters that I was unaware of, when I was hired I only knew of one but there are at least a dozen that I know of. Your conduct here speaks for you elsewhere.
Ghostscape - from what I understood he is modelling the highpoly contrary to what you said. I really don't know whats the fuss about ? He is just creating good things and doesn't really critique original assets. You are attaching some weird problems to this thread because bunch of people write 'How could they create such bad looking props ?!?!?!'. I'm with Odium on this one.
Ghostscape - from what I understood he is modelling the highpoly contrary to what you said. I really don't know whats the fuss about ? He is just creating good things and doesn't really critique original assets. You are attaching some weird problems to this thread because bunch of people write 'How could they create such bad looking props ?!?!?!'. I'm with Odium on this one.
He's modeling a high poly that is derived from the low, rather than re-creating the entire asset from scratch. He's definitely putting some work in, but ultimately he's leaving big steps out of a full artist workflow.
Yeah, I'm just detriangulating the models in the game and tweaking with them until I have something that smooths nicely. Most of the details I add with nDo, the bake is entirely for edge smoothing. (saves time)
I've done several for a mod pack, but I hate working with GECK so I just focus on art and let other people do the other stuff for me :P
Additionally, expecting to be able to hand off your primadonna work to someone else to do your setup is a lofty expectation.
I think Millenia is less adversarial than some of the other posters in this thread and I'd love to see him do well, but these posts are really not worth making:
The more I watch this thread, the more I see the devs must have been asleep the whole time... I know you can only do "so much" with a huge game like Fallout, but if they had just one guy doing the weapons like you, they would have nailed it. But they had more, I'm sure.
If they don't hire you for the next one, I'll actually be a little pissed...
Ghostscape - from what I understood he is modelling the highpoly contrary to what you said. I really don't know whats the fuss about ? He is just creating good things and doesn't really critique original assets. You are attaching some weird problems to this thread because bunch of people write 'How could they create such bad looking props ?!?!?!'. I'm with Odium on this one.
Did you even read this thread or what?
Yeah most of it is other people, infact the worst posts are mostly from Odium. But for the most part Millenia jumps in and agrees, in one of his posts he even says he could do a better job in a shorter time frame.
The point others here are making is that game dev is a team sport. Making high quality art is important but nobody wants to work with a pompous ass that makes others feel like garbage. It's not that difficult to understand.
Additionally, expecting to be able to hand off your primadonna work to someone else to do your setup is a lofty expectation.
I'm terrible with the actual modding tools and I have a friend who's good at it (plus he gets all spergy if I don't align the sights pixel perfect so he pretty much demands to do all the 'gruntwork')
Regardless, I won't be even considering applying for game art jobs outside of Finland until my gf graduates, so maybe in a year from now :P
Honestly this project is only for my own enjoyment since Fallout is pretty much my favourite game series of all time.
PS: I was already offered a game art job a month ago but it was in Montreal so I couldn't take it
Yeah theres a lot of silly here, Your stuff looks really good and you should be proud of it. But unless you are at one of those fancy big companys that get the "we will ship it when its done" type freedom, most of the time you will make large sacrifices in what you are able to put in a game. When you get a job and they give you a big list of guns and are like "heres the schedule" you have to do what you can to make that schedule. i'd be our right lieing if i said even a small percentage of art that i've done on the job were at a level i would personaly consider complete. Fact is if they woulda spent more time and money making better gun models, it likely would have had zero impact on the profit margin of the actual game. some companys you go to for awesome art and visuals, some companys you go to for super imersive environments and story. fallout has always been the second. they spent the time right where it was needed.
One thing I've noticed with most (if not all) Bethesda games, is that they tend to look pretty damn good as a whole. But as soon as you start picking it apart and looking at the individual assets, you realize how bad it actually is. Even Skyrim...
These models aren't the most pleasant to work with lol :poly142:
are seriously going to burn bridges and prevent a decent artist from getting work then the games industry needs to stop being primadonnas. from everything displayed in this thread, millenia himself has been fairly polite and has not displayed "attitude problems" of any sort, unlike some of the other posters around here. it's extremely annoying that we can't speak critically about game art on a forum about game art--commercial product or not.
also, time is not a valid excuse for poor art. i understand we have no idea what kind of constraints the original art team was put under, but the way to make good art fast is to SIMPLIFY. it's the difference between a good artist and a bad one--a good one will make the task easier whereas a bad one will try and do the complicated task faster.
anyway we've now made pages of posts about posting, how about some posts about art?
are you guys for real? i seriously can't believe what i'm reading right now. if -POLITE- comments like
are seriously going to burn bridges and prevent a decent artist from getting work then the games industry needs to stop being primadonnas. from everything displayed in this thread, millenia himself has been fairly polite and has not displayed "attitude problems" of any sort, unlike some of the other posters around here. it's extremely annoying that we can't speak critically about game art on a forum about game art--commercial product or not.
also, time is not a valid excuse for poor art. i understand we have no idea what kind of constraints the original art team was put under, but the way to make good art fast is to SIMPLIFY. it's the difference between a good artist and a bad one--a good one will make the task easier whereas a bad one will try and do the complicated task faster.
anyway we've now made pages of posts about posting, how about some posts about art?
This. Everyone here is over thinking this whole situation. Time constrain means you have to make it work in short period of time. Not try to fit the same workflow in smaller time window. Nobody said that people who created those are wankers. Every artist should be able to look critically on their work. Ok won't spam this thread with this topic anymore.
Time constraints are one thing, but there are some blatant mistakes like running the unedited diffuse map through the Nvidia normal filter and calling that a normal map :P
Looks better without, IMO. Anyways I hope I'll have some updates tomorrow so we can look at actual pictures instead of walls of text, lol!
I have no idea what happened really, they pretty much dropped the ball lol
not constructive criticism. Zenimax employees are not going to get involved in this anyway because they could potentially get in big trouble.
The only reason you guys are having this argument is because it's easy to pick on an anonymous person. You feel like you're sticking it to the man. Let's say all these assets were Odium's getting remade and everyone questioning his artistic skills? And honestly, from the look some of the Overdose assets, it really needs to be done (I don't mean this, this is just showing you how it feels when it isn't a faceless person you're mocking)
Time constraints are one thing, but there are some blatant mistakes like running the unedited diffuse map through the Nvidia normal filter and calling that a normal map :P
No, that sounds like a time-constraint issue to me. It astounds me how many assumptions are made in this thread about the conditions under which these assets were made. I can understand some of the technical criticism but holy shit, trash talking other artists' work on a public forum? What exactly do you think that's going to achieve other than potentially burning bridges?
In my mind it's no small coincidence that the people most vocally criticising the original artwork are those who haven't actually worked inhouse in a large AAA studio like Bethesda.
Metacritic scores
Brink 70
fall out new vegas 84
fall out 3 91
brink, a absolutely beautiful game, amazing art, amazing gun models. I was hyped forever waiting for brink to come out. a few weeks after it was released it was off the radar, got poor reviews, no one seems to care about it at all now.
Shame really for it had some of the best art and art direction i've seen in a fps.
the fall out guys put exactly the amount of time and effort in art as they felt they needed. It was their call and they were hugely suscessful. they were much more focused on creating an imersive world. and millenia, you mentioned wanting to eventualy work for them. I think you should reconsidere, not because of any burned bridges. but more because i believe if you did work there you would limited in the same way their current artist are. if a company can make 5 gun models a day and make more money than a game that takes days per model, then why on earth would you bother.
your guns do look awesome, better than i could do.
Brink had amazing art direction, but it was sooo sluggish... I dunno what they did to the id tech 4 engine, but even when I pull 60FPS constant, it feels... Clunky? The gameplay hurt though, big time, because it just wasn't fun to play.
But then, thats suggesting that art is in any way directly related to how enjoyable or how good a game is? Which we all know is a load of all fluff. Artwork can help set the mood, the tone and the level of a game, and thats sure as hell true. But if a games got bad art, it doesn't make it "a bad game", it just makes it a ugly but good game. In fact, I'm pretty sure both Fallout 3 and New Vegas were always slap bang in the middle of this area... Fantastic games, but butt ugly.
But again, thats suggesting that you cant have both. They are two different teams, with two different time scales, budgets and plans... Gameplay in development wont have much of anything to do with how you MAKE an asset, and lets be fair here, most of the F3/NV weapons ARE simple 2 second jobs... Take the diffuse, pass it through the nvidia filter, boom, normals done. Thats not good enough, not in this day and age, and even worse when you see that most of the game isn't done in this way... Thats why THOSE assets stand out even more than the rest.
What it all boils down to is that the team had a dedicated set of people working on the weapons, and they rushed them. Thats poor, because the weapons (there are fewer than you think) are a HUGE deal, they take up a lot of the screen and you see them more than the people a lot of the time. Theres simply no excuse for doing a higher poly model on one, but then a 2 second hack on another. Thats not fitting into a time frame, thats just coming off lazy.
Now, Mils can't be put into the same category as these people, and for one very special reason... He doesn't HAVE to do these things. Hes not paid to do them, hes fitting them in while doing everything else in his day to day life. But Bethesda or whoever it was, they had dedicated people working JUST on these weapons, and they did a sub par result. Not all the time, no, but a lot of the time.
This is a tricky area to talk on because Fallout is a MASSIVE game, and I bloody well agree you just cant do quality art all the time... it would take forever. Don't get me wrong there, I agree, and I get the whole time frame and time limit thing... but theres no excuse for making a weapon model and then just sticking it in the nvidia filter. I can bet you my bottom quid that if I was to present an OverDose weapon model on here with that and just said "yeah but we are a small team so we dont have much time to split for everything" you guys would rip me to pieces... But we are supposed to ignore it because its a huge dev team who gets paid to do it? Doesn't make sense.
I don't see how any bridgs would be burnt here. Hes a great artist, doing what he loves, and at a fast pace too when you think about the time hes actually done it and not been having a life. If any company didn't want to take him on simply because A) he wants to push the art to a better quality with the same reqs and they are worried they may bring the rest of the games quality down, then doesn't that show issues elsewhere, not with him...?
Racer454: if it's no big deal, pick one of your regular clients and tell us which piece of art by their in house artist is the worst. You must use words like "LOL" or "dropped the ball" - you know, the type of language that is used in reasonable art critique.
anyway, I'm throwing up my hands, I'm done with this. I'll refrain from sharing professional advice in the future.
china lake GL turned out great! wood looks great, good wear shapes, good color usage. revolver looks good too but the barrel wear is a little crazy. M79 has nice base materials but i think you --dropped the ball-- by adding too much wear on the barrel; it just looks cluttered, LOL.
so yeah it's awesome that you're branching out into using photos, but i think you've gone overboard in a few spots.
man this thread is still absurd and hilarious to read.
Thanks Racer! It's kinda easy to go overboard when wanting to fit these in a post-apoc setting, I was certainly a lot more satisfied with the revolver before I added too much damage, but the lore purists would certainly hang me if it looked too new :V
Seriously, how does that original pass? Not to insult the original artist, but it's actually amazing that something like this would make it into a AAA game, imo. On a side note, awesome work man! The China Lake is my favourite so far
Replies
To make money I suppose :P
The facts are simply; He did a better job, and is doing a better job, than a large team of people. End of story.
If thats REALLY a bad thing that shouldn't be talked about just incase the artists get hurt and don't hire somebody then... What does that actually say about the dev team? Any team worth its salt constantly wants to improve, do better, and quite frankly the art in Bethesda titles pre Skyrim (and even quite a bit then, too) was sub-standard. We let them off, simply because of the scale of the game world. making so much, you must make it easier, you just can't do amazing work all the time in games that large, and I don't think we will see that for a long time.
But shunning his work and saying its not to be spoke about, JUST because its better than something else, seems a bit... Well, silly. If I was the art director there, I would think "well, ok, clearly hes making assets quick enough for a single guy, clearly they are miles better... What can we learn here?" and then educate the team as best as I can on this, hoping that some of it sticks. I wouldn't get pissy because his art was better and then black list him from ever wanting a job with me... That screams a bit dictator to me.
Lets just leave him doing what hes doing, and doing great I might add... That is, lets leave him making art, and showing it to a community full of artists for feedback, for free, to improve titles he loves.
Well said.
Mostly due to time.
carry on as you where I'll make a seperate discussion.
It's not a matter of butthurt, it's a matter of dealing with ego. If you come into a company acting like everyone else is a shitty artist, despite not having any understanding of the constraints they were working under (for example, the memory constraints that have them using lower resolution textures than you are, or the obvious time crunch that is involved in a game like this), you're going not going to come off as a team player who is wanting to work with other people, you're going to come across as a primadonna prick. I know a guy personally who didn't get a job because while he did great work he also had that "you guys don't know what you're doing" attitude.
It's possible to work on a beauty mod and not come across as a dick, but making comparisons, but trash talking their work is not going to win you any favors, ever. Even if it looks like balls. The folks here posting "Obsidian must be full of shitty artists" are burning bridges needlessly. Comments like this: certainly don't help, either.
The reality is that while Millenia's textures are better looking, he also has no time constraints and relaxed technical constraints, and he's breaking the consistency of the world in the process. Given the chance to work on PC only with no minimum hardware requirements and infinite time,I'm sure any Obsidian artist would do better than what they shipped with.
I've shipped plenty of art that wasn't my best work ever because that's how you ship.
yeah dude totally he's doing a way better job than a huge team of people. In months he's finished a handful of textures, meanwhile they were building gigs of data under time and hardware constraints that Millenia is ignoring.
Let's not forget he's not even modeling these things.
Millenia's work is great. The attitude is something he needs to spend legitimate time on improving and shaping his presentation. It's great that he loves Fallout and Skyrim and wants to work at Bethesda or Obsidian and make awesome games. That should be the focus and the reason he puts forth for doing this, not "because I can do better than them!"
Let the quality of your work stand on it's own, without tearing down someone else's work. Then, when you get to Bethesda, share your workflow and techniques and teach.
Tearing someone's stuff down doesn't make your work better in comparison.
Honestly, I'd really like to see Millenia do more modeling and less texture re-work, because the number of dedicated texture positions at companies is woefully small, and it would let him fix things like the picatinny rail on the carbine being a series of boxes rather than elongated hexagons.
e: it's really important to remember whenever you post here, that for every vocal poster at X studio, there are a dozen lurkers. I was amazed at how many folks here at Volition were polycounters that I was unaware of, when I was hired I only knew of one but there are at least a dozen that I know of. Your conduct here speaks for you elsewhere.
He's modeling a high poly that is derived from the low, rather than re-creating the entire asset from scratch. He's definitely putting some work in, but ultimately he's leaving big steps out of a full artist workflow.
Additionally, expecting to be able to hand off your primadonna work to someone else to do your setup is a lofty expectation.
I think Millenia is less adversarial than some of the other posters in this thread and I'd love to see him do well, but these posts are really not worth making:
Yeah most of it is other people, infact the worst posts are mostly from Odium. But for the most part Millenia jumps in and agrees, in one of his posts he even says he could do a better job in a shorter time frame.
The point others here are making is that game dev is a team sport. Making high quality art is important but nobody wants to work with a pompous ass that makes others feel like garbage. It's not that difficult to understand.
I'm terrible with the actual modding tools and I have a friend who's good at it (plus he gets all spergy if I don't align the sights pixel perfect so he pretty much demands to do all the 'gruntwork')
Regardless, I won't be even considering applying for game art jobs outside of Finland until my gf graduates, so maybe in a year from now :P
Honestly this project is only for my own enjoyment since Fallout is pretty much my favourite game series of all time.
PS: I was already offered a game art job a month ago but it was in Montreal so I couldn't take it
but like others have said before everything is the way it is due to time.
Its still nice work you've done though.
(sorry Geezus!)
Oh! Nice work dude! Keep it up!
are seriously going to burn bridges and prevent a decent artist from getting work then the games industry needs to stop being primadonnas. from everything displayed in this thread, millenia himself has been fairly polite and has not displayed "attitude problems" of any sort, unlike some of the other posters around here. it's extremely annoying that we can't speak critically about game art on a forum about game art--commercial product or not.
also, time is not a valid excuse for poor art. i understand we have no idea what kind of constraints the original art team was put under, but the way to make good art fast is to SIMPLIFY. it's the difference between a good artist and a bad one--a good one will make the task easier whereas a bad one will try and do the complicated task faster.
anyway we've now made pages of posts about posting, how about some posts about art?
This. Everyone here is over thinking this whole situation. Time constrain means you have to make it work in short period of time. Not try to fit the same workflow in smaller time window. Nobody said that people who created those are wankers. Every artist should be able to look critically on their work. Ok won't spam this thread with this topic anymore.
Looks better without, IMO. Anyways I hope I'll have some updates tomorrow so we can look at actual pictures instead of walls of text, lol!
not constructive criticism. Zenimax employees are not going to get involved in this anyway because they could potentially get in big trouble.
The only reason you guys are having this argument is because it's easy to pick on an anonymous person. You feel like you're sticking it to the man. Let's say all these assets were Odium's getting remade and everyone questioning his artistic skills? And honestly, from the look some of the Overdose assets, it really needs to be done (I don't mean this, this is just showing you how it feels when it isn't a faceless person you're mocking)
No, that sounds like a time-constraint issue to me. It astounds me how many assumptions are made in this thread about the conditions under which these assets were made. I can understand some of the technical criticism but holy shit, trash talking other artists' work on a public forum? What exactly do you think that's going to achieve other than potentially burning bridges?
In my mind it's no small coincidence that the people most vocally criticising the original artwork are those who haven't actually worked inhouse in a large AAA studio like Bethesda.
me neither!
Discussing actual art on a game art forum? Preposterous!
Brink 70
fall out new vegas 84
fall out 3 91
brink, a absolutely beautiful game, amazing art, amazing gun models. I was hyped forever waiting for brink to come out. a few weeks after it was released it was off the radar, got poor reviews, no one seems to care about it at all now.
Shame really for it had some of the best art and art direction i've seen in a fps.
the fall out guys put exactly the amount of time and effort in art as they felt they needed. It was their call and they were hugely suscessful. they were much more focused on creating an imersive world. and millenia, you mentioned wanting to eventualy work for them. I think you should reconsidere, not because of any burned bridges. but more because i believe if you did work there you would limited in the same way their current artist are. if a company can make 5 gun models a day and make more money than a game that takes days per model, then why on earth would you bother.
your guns do look awesome, better than i could do.
But then, thats suggesting that art is in any way directly related to how enjoyable or how good a game is? Which we all know is a load of all fluff. Artwork can help set the mood, the tone and the level of a game, and thats sure as hell true. But if a games got bad art, it doesn't make it "a bad game", it just makes it a ugly but good game. In fact, I'm pretty sure both Fallout 3 and New Vegas were always slap bang in the middle of this area... Fantastic games, but butt ugly.
But again, thats suggesting that you cant have both. They are two different teams, with two different time scales, budgets and plans... Gameplay in development wont have much of anything to do with how you MAKE an asset, and lets be fair here, most of the F3/NV weapons ARE simple 2 second jobs... Take the diffuse, pass it through the nvidia filter, boom, normals done. Thats not good enough, not in this day and age, and even worse when you see that most of the game isn't done in this way... Thats why THOSE assets stand out even more than the rest.
What it all boils down to is that the team had a dedicated set of people working on the weapons, and they rushed them. Thats poor, because the weapons (there are fewer than you think) are a HUGE deal, they take up a lot of the screen and you see them more than the people a lot of the time. Theres simply no excuse for doing a higher poly model on one, but then a 2 second hack on another. Thats not fitting into a time frame, thats just coming off lazy.
Now, Mils can't be put into the same category as these people, and for one very special reason... He doesn't HAVE to do these things. Hes not paid to do them, hes fitting them in while doing everything else in his day to day life. But Bethesda or whoever it was, they had dedicated people working JUST on these weapons, and they did a sub par result. Not all the time, no, but a lot of the time.
This is a tricky area to talk on because Fallout is a MASSIVE game, and I bloody well agree you just cant do quality art all the time... it would take forever. Don't get me wrong there, I agree, and I get the whole time frame and time limit thing... but theres no excuse for making a weapon model and then just sticking it in the nvidia filter. I can bet you my bottom quid that if I was to present an OverDose weapon model on here with that and just said "yeah but we are a small team so we dont have much time to split for everything" you guys would rip me to pieces... But we are supposed to ignore it because its a huge dev team who gets paid to do it? Doesn't make sense.
I don't see how any bridgs would be burnt here. Hes a great artist, doing what he loves, and at a fast pace too when you think about the time hes actually done it and not been having a life. If any company didn't want to take him on simply because A) he wants to push the art to a better quality with the same reqs and
Just my 2p guys, no need to flame
anyway, I'm throwing up my hands, I'm done with this. I'll refrain from sharing professional advice in the future.
so yeah it's awesome that you're branching out into using photos, but i think you've gone overboard in a few spots.
man this thread is still absurd and hilarious to read.
[ame="
Too bad YT compression is kinda meh, but anyways.
I'm just gonna throw a few things out there.
Acid burns
Mutant teeth marks
Corporate sponsorship