[quote='[HP]I understand EQ point that you shouldn't crunch just because everyone is doing it, but I don't entirely agree with it. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you stand beside your team during good and bad times, in the end it will pay off, management will notice your efforts and in the end you will be rewarded. (Project bonus, GDC trips, promotion, raises, etc)[/quote]
This is super dependent on the studio however, I've worked at too many places where bonuses were promised, or "hinted at" but never followed through on. I feel the bonus talk is far too often complete bullshit, so I never consider it. If I get a bonus? Great! But its never going to be considered as part of my income, or something I can actually rely upon, nor should it be some sort of carrot on a stick that leads you to work inhuman hours.
I've busted ass and crunched, only to have the project fail to meet deadlines because of factors entirely out of my control, code, level design, broken builds, no amount of 14 hour days working on individual art content can get around larger problems like these, and when you bust ass for bonuses, and have to meet deadlines even though you're working super hard, it leaves a sour taste in your mouth.
But this is my personal experience, I've been burned by the "bonus" mentality too often to buy into it. I would prefer to simply be paid a fair wage, and work fair hours. No amount of bonus cash is worth the physical toll, and stress it creates on your family life to be worth extended crunch.
Chasing the proverbial bonus is a good way to burn out.
If I know the terms of hitting a bonus, and have that in writing(not uncommon with contract work) sure I'll bust ass to make some extra cash. However, onsite it is far too often some arbitrary "entire project" goal, with the terms of a bonus entirely up to management, the amount, and if you've met the arbitrary goal being up to someone else to decide. If you work at a great studio that is reliable and honest when it comes to bonuses, that's awesome, however I don't think this is really the norm in the industry.
Also, there are a wide variety of ways to show how valuable you are to a company other than working arbitrarily long hours. Like exceeding your employers expectations regarding the quality of work, having good communication, being open to help others out, being a productive member of the team and always looking for ways to improve the project, improve workflows, etc. All of which can be done without working 80 hour weeks.
From what I gather, one of the benefits of going to school is that it helps you prepare for industry hours. In a week, I typically spend about 35 hours on school, 25 hours at work, and 25 hours on freelance. So it sounds to me like only having one 45 hour a week job to worry about would be nice.
i will never work more than 40 hours a week, its total bullshit.
i do contract,i work 30 hours a week TOPS. the key is just get really fast at what you do, when your working don't fuck around on the internet or watch videos just do your job.
i can do a 3 week model in 1 week, overlap 3 projects at a time stagger the deadlines, everything is pretty chill and i have no work related stress.
you could never just be fast at a studio as they will almost always just give you more shit to do or shorter deadlines, so you have no reason to get faster, there is no reward for it, there is actually a punishment, even if your pumping out 3 times the assets as other people they will give you shit so you can sit in your seat the same number of hours as everyone else.
there are a few studios that i know of that are not total shit holes to work at, oh and low and behold they seem to be the ones making the best games. henry ford found the same results when he switched from a 12 hour workday to an 8 hour work day, more stuff got done and there was fewer mistakes. i am doing contract for a studio right now that only works 6 hour days, and the quality of the work is probably the best i have seen out any studio right now.
That's kinda true, depends if a new pay rise is on the table if you're obviously above par. Any reasonable person will compare them and if person A is working three times the speed of B you're either going to have to compensate them or expect a 'I'm moving on email' soon enough. Harder in a tough employment market though.
At the moment I work 9:25 to 18:35, 17:35 if i go shorter on the lunch break. That said, during crunch it can easily become from an hour more to all nighter and/or weekends as well, but that happens not so often in our department.
I have to travel around at least 70 minutes in each direction though, as I stayed in the flat with my university flatmates for now and it's taking its toll in terms of being tired in the evenings. So the flat is outside the city on the south, and the company is in the very east, but I guess this is a solvable thing.
I've been in a crunch though with a former job, where I litellary stayed 16 days in a row in the company, sleeping on a couch, using the company shower and washing machine and cooking in the company's kitchen. The "advantage" was not having to care for anything (everything was provided what you would have in a flat and a supermarket was next door).
From what I gather, one of the benefits of going to school is that it helps you prepare for industry hours. In a week, I typically spend about 35 hours on school, 25 hours at work, and 25 hours on freelance. So it sounds to me like only having one 45 hour a week job to worry about would be nice.
So true. For the whole of my final year I was in work placement. So I was doing a 40 hour Job, coming home to a shit load of college work and also doing freelance now and again.
Just doing a 40 hour week after the degree was like being on holiday.
All this developer talk about how you can keep your hours down if you set goals and get clear direction and leadership and so on .... well none of that really matters at a great many studios im afraid.
I mean, most places I've worked, it would have been great to have clear goals and deadlines etc, but this is the games industry and most leads are just artists that had been there at a company a while, not really leaders and not really managers!
That said, I stick to about 45-50 hours a week these days. I used to do more and before that I used to do a lot more but I'll be 37 this year and with the health shit i had last year I'm resolved to the notion that life is just too short for me to spend my health on anyone but myself!!!
I think the thing that usually caused me to work longer hours was feeling that I wasn't getting stuff done as quickly as it needed to be done to meet deadlines. The joke is that you can say to your lead ' do you want it fast or do you want it good' and you know, they want both.
In the end , if you care too much, you obligate yourself into trying to compensate for an unrealistic schedule which actually causes more damage than good because by doing this, you are muddying the awareness of the schedule being unrealistic. The leads can't tell the schedule isn't working until they see it isn't working and if you are doing 12 hours a day to make it work... well you are just prolonging things.
Theres a great line in Generation Kill ( a 6 part gulf war series by The Wire creator David Simon that everyone should watch ).
' As long as they keep making boneheaded plans and we keep surviving them... they'll keep making them'
I think this sums up the situation with hours in the games industry. Its tough to stay balanced when passion is involved though and its hard to fight the fear that if you don't do those extra hours, you could help cause the company to go wrong. And its great to feel like a hero, I've been there a lot of times.
If you start a company that expects more than 50 hours a week though, you're probably at the wrong company because they haven't figured out how to subtract as well as add and thats a huge problem.
any job can overwork you, my brother has his own Tattoo shop, he works almost 65 hours a week on average. My girlfriend was a graphic designer for a commercial real estate company, she put in about 50 hours a week and they gave her grief if she took a lunch break. I worked about 50 hours a week when I was doing IT - and since I lived only a few miles from the office I was on call for emergencies.
Now I work 40 hours a week, hour lunch break doesn't count so technically I'm at the office 45 hours a week.
So true. For the whole of my final year I was in work placement. So I was doing a 40 hour Job, coming home to a shit load of college work and also doing freelance now and again.
Just doing a 40 hour week after the degree was like being on holiday.
Home life comes before work life. I only work to pay the bills. I slam my 40 hours and walk out of the studio. You can call me ungrateful or undedicated, but in the end, i hit my deadlines every time, and at the highest quality bar. My point is, you dont have to have a nerdgasm and live at your desk to be a great employee, id higly suggest new to the bizz people drop that mentality. It only opens you up for abuse.
Here in Bend the official work hours are 37.5 a week. Up until a month ago I'd typically work 40-45. This past month I got extremely busy outside of work so I've kept it to a strict 37.5. Thank goodness that's about to be over.
In my contract it says my working week is 40, I typically do 45 - 50 without noticing. Although we've been on "crunch" since January where 60 -70 hours a week are not unheard of. I'm team lead and unfortunately I am the one who has to keep everyone crunching because the goal posts change as we get closer to hitting our goals. I have one simple rule, if I am going to ask the team to give up their free time, I make sure I put in the same if not more.
I try and protect the team as much as possible, the project managers will always push for more and will run you into a wall if they think they will get what they want faster and better. There is a beautiful word called "no" that I have been using and empowering the team to use, can work very well.
Not getting paid is ok aslong as the managers order in some pizza or organise some events to make up for the fact you're going blind infront of a TFT for extra hours.
Hot pockets!
I average around 50 hours a week, but when I really want to finish what I'm working on, I sometimes push it to 60. I really enjoy what I do, so working the extra hours doesn't really bother me. But sometimes being the only FX Artist has moments. My wife says "Its not as bad as when you worked at ****b** "
I know its rough for you and your fiance, I would suggest having her come visit you at work if you working long hours. Its always good to have dinner with your spouse even though its at work.
Working overtime comes and goes, but if its always on 24/7 then somethings up the management!
This thread is a few months old, but I would like to bump it to see if I can get some additional input.
I created this thread to see if the "ghost stories" of the gaming industry were true namely: long uncompensated work hours, extensive crunch and living life like a gypsy moving everywhere because studios close and or lay offs. In other words a multitude of factors that lead to poor quality of life. So far it seems, at least in terms of working hours, they don't seem to coincide with the horror stories of the industry.
This thread has been very insightful. Thanks EQ for being brutally honest. I've been hearing all the shit for months about layoff's 6month crunch with 100hour weeks ect ect an i was starting to worry about it ;S
Not getting paid is ok aslong as the managers order in some pizza or organise some events to make up for the fact you're going blind infront of a TFT for extra hours.
Hot pockets!
NOPE! Tossing the team $60 in Pizza instead of thousands of dollars of wages is not an even trade.
hahaha some people just go nuts over "free stutt" as compensation.
Perfect example. Ghandi in clone high asks a question to the extreme blue on the ingredients of the drink and the media says, "Excellent quesiton! here, have a tshirt." and ghandi replies. "AWESOME! That totally answered my question!"
Anyways, if that is what makes him work those long hrs happily, who are we to deny him that blissful pizza.
But yea... not even close to an even trade.
As said, i work 50 hrs a week from 8-6. Since we are now in the last 2 weeks of the project there are some later nights, but i don't go over 60hrs. AND! i like to come in early to leave early, than to come in late to leave late.
Things CAN go according to schedule if you are organized and plan accordingly. Whenever we stay late is because something was implemented that needs a lot of work, or we want to add more content to show in the build. Anyways... that's my 2 cents on this.
AT my studio crunch is happening right now and I've been working at least 60+ hour weeks for the past two to three weeks.
Advice for staying up late...electronic music lol Some people like to listen along and go for the ride and kinda pumps everyone up
I recently had a friend not from my studio who worked 3 days straight with no sleep O_O That's hardcore right there! Hehe
No crunch time lately for me during "normal" work hours go from 40-50 and I'll usually stay a lil extra time. It's very rare that I do a 9 hour shift (lunch included in this). I'll do 10-11 during normal weeks.
Got to be careful not to go too crazy I mean health is pretty important.
Yeah just seen the job > fiancee, gotta set your priorities straight. I've had multiple convos with people where you need to get set straight on life as well. Having a job is important and all but your self being and your loved ones, namely family are so important especially if you're married or have family around you most of the time.
It's been tough for my family to understand the late work hours at times. thankfully I my gf is part of the game industry so she knows how we roll None of the "why are you out so late are you really still at work?" question that co workers have gotten throughout the years.
Usually good planning and a speedy workflow will help you through and through. Of course having good management at your studio would help as well.
Average 45 hours/wk over the last 10 years or so. 40 hours a week punctuated by 50-60 hour weeks for milestones or some stupid demo or other. I'll echo the sentiment that you don't get bonuses these days. Most studios do give you comp time so it can work out.
heh, 38 (35+3h overtime payed 25% more) , ah lazy french !
I did a crunch from 9am to midnight, included week-ends during 3 weeks though, and it's not going to happen again !
Missed this thread so as for paid work:
In the U.S. 9:00Am to 12:00Am so I am knocking on around 90 hours a week on my freelance/contract/project works, no O.T. & doing so many different things besides 3D along side the 3D, while in the middle of 3D. If that makes sense to anyone. As for a crunch that would require not sleeping, probably.
I guess I would be pretty much better off in a "stable, industry position" not sure though from what I've read/heard.
This thread is very informative and gets rid of some anxiety I have been having about the game industry. My fiance and I are to be married next year in May which is right after I am done with my classes. I have often worried about the 60-100 hour standard strain would put on a new marriage but now that I have a better idea of what I am looking at, I am not as worried anymore. I try to be open and honest on what to expect and I believe she knows where I am coming from because she will be working in a creative industry to.
I personally wouldn't put up with the insane work hours for long unless I had no other way of supporting my new family. Although I have an insane passion for what I do my philosophy is work to live, not live to work.
Do I really have to compete with so many people who enjoy setting themselves up to be abused?
Not really, the industry chews them up and spits them out pretty quickly, leaving you a spot.
The problem is they took everything the last monkey was giving out, which was a lot. So they'll have high expectations that you won't leave your desk... ever.
for the freelancers: aren't you responsible for your workload?
Probably, but it's sometimes feast or famine. Also freelance probably have to deal with tighter deadlines more often? I guess it depends on the relationship with the client...
For the last 4months at least 60hours a week, for the last month 70+ which will continue for the next 5 and a half weeks Although really only this last month has really been stressed that we put in the time and is never required.
Normally is like 45 to 50 and thats just because I want to put in the extra time.
I'm fortunate that I've worked on 2 titles now and not yet had a crunch. Sometimes I'll work extra to add something to the game though. Normally I work 40 hrs/week, maybe 55 when on a personal crunch.
living life like a gypsy moving everywhere because studios close and or lay offs.
I'd really like to hear more about this as well. This thread has done a great job dispelling a lot of the myths about weekly hours, but what about things like long-term job security? Is the industry really full of a bunch of nomads moving from studio to studio every 6-12 months because of lay-offs when a game ships/fails?
I mean, you see things thrown around like "game industry employees only last in the industry for an average of 5 years". Or people mention just how young the average age of employees is and then attribute that to the high rate of burnout.
I'm a student who will be graduating next year; I don't have industry experience so I can't actually know if that's a bunch of BS.
I work around 9 hours a day most of the time. But I'm casual enough with my breaks that it's really just an expanded 8 hour day. Usually do chin ups or go for a small 5 min walk every hour or 2. Occasionally shoot the shit, and talk hockey/video games/things to do... whatever.
I will GLADLY work diligently over 60 if they give me complete buy-in on what I'm working on.
Replies
This is super dependent on the studio however, I've worked at too many places where bonuses were promised, or "hinted at" but never followed through on. I feel the bonus talk is far too often complete bullshit, so I never consider it. If I get a bonus? Great! But its never going to be considered as part of my income, or something I can actually rely upon, nor should it be some sort of carrot on a stick that leads you to work inhuman hours.
I've busted ass and crunched, only to have the project fail to meet deadlines because of factors entirely out of my control, code, level design, broken builds, no amount of 14 hour days working on individual art content can get around larger problems like these, and when you bust ass for bonuses, and have to meet deadlines even though you're working super hard, it leaves a sour taste in your mouth.
But this is my personal experience, I've been burned by the "bonus" mentality too often to buy into it. I would prefer to simply be paid a fair wage, and work fair hours. No amount of bonus cash is worth the physical toll, and stress it creates on your family life to be worth extended crunch.
Chasing the proverbial bonus is a good way to burn out.
If I know the terms of hitting a bonus, and have that in writing(not uncommon with contract work) sure I'll bust ass to make some extra cash. However, onsite it is far too often some arbitrary "entire project" goal, with the terms of a bonus entirely up to management, the amount, and if you've met the arbitrary goal being up to someone else to decide. If you work at a great studio that is reliable and honest when it comes to bonuses, that's awesome, however I don't think this is really the norm in the industry.
Also, there are a wide variety of ways to show how valuable you are to a company other than working arbitrarily long hours. Like exceeding your employers expectations regarding the quality of work, having good communication, being open to help others out, being a productive member of the team and always looking for ways to improve the project, improve workflows, etc. All of which can be done without working 80 hour weeks.
i do contract,i work 30 hours a week TOPS. the key is just get really fast at what you do, when your working don't fuck around on the internet or watch videos just do your job.
i can do a 3 week model in 1 week, overlap 3 projects at a time stagger the deadlines, everything is pretty chill and i have no work related stress.
you could never just be fast at a studio as they will almost always just give you more shit to do or shorter deadlines, so you have no reason to get faster, there is no reward for it, there is actually a punishment, even if your pumping out 3 times the assets as other people they will give you shit so you can sit in your seat the same number of hours as everyone else.
there are a few studios that i know of that are not total shit holes to work at, oh and low and behold they seem to be the ones making the best games. henry ford found the same results when he switched from a 12 hour workday to an 8 hour work day, more stuff got done and there was fewer mistakes. i am doing contract for a studio right now that only works 6 hour days, and the quality of the work is probably the best i have seen out any studio right now.
At the moment I work 9:25 to 18:35, 17:35 if i go shorter on the lunch break. That said, during crunch it can easily become from an hour more to all nighter and/or weekends as well, but that happens not so often in our department.
I have to travel around at least 70 minutes in each direction though, as I stayed in the flat with my university flatmates for now and it's taking its toll in terms of being tired in the evenings. So the flat is outside the city on the south, and the company is in the very east, but I guess this is a solvable thing.
I've been in a crunch though with a former job, where I litellary stayed 16 days in a row in the company, sleeping on a couch, using the company shower and washing machine and cooking in the company's kitchen. The "advantage" was not having to care for anything (everything was provided what you would have in a flat and a supermarket was next door).
So true. For the whole of my final year I was in work placement. So I was doing a 40 hour Job, coming home to a shit load of college work and also doing freelance now and again.
Just doing a 40 hour week after the degree was like being on holiday.
All this developer talk about how you can keep your hours down if you set goals and get clear direction and leadership and so on .... well none of that really matters at a great many studios im afraid.
I mean, most places I've worked, it would have been great to have clear goals and deadlines etc, but this is the games industry and most leads are just artists that had been there at a company a while, not really leaders and not really managers!
That said, I stick to about 45-50 hours a week these days. I used to do more and before that I used to do a lot more but I'll be 37 this year and with the health shit i had last year I'm resolved to the notion that life is just too short for me to spend my health on anyone but myself!!!
I think the thing that usually caused me to work longer hours was feeling that I wasn't getting stuff done as quickly as it needed to be done to meet deadlines. The joke is that you can say to your lead ' do you want it fast or do you want it good' and you know, they want both.
In the end , if you care too much, you obligate yourself into trying to compensate for an unrealistic schedule which actually causes more damage than good because by doing this, you are muddying the awareness of the schedule being unrealistic. The leads can't tell the schedule isn't working until they see it isn't working and if you are doing 12 hours a day to make it work... well you are just prolonging things.
Theres a great line in Generation Kill ( a 6 part gulf war series by The Wire creator David Simon that everyone should watch ).
' As long as they keep making boneheaded plans and we keep surviving them... they'll keep making them'
I think this sums up the situation with hours in the games industry. Its tough to stay balanced when passion is involved though and its hard to fight the fear that if you don't do those extra hours, you could help cause the company to go wrong. And its great to feel like a hero, I've been there a lot of times.
If you start a company that expects more than 50 hours a week though, you're probably at the wrong company because they haven't figured out how to subtract as well as add and thats a huge problem.
Now I work 40 hours a week, hour lunch break doesn't count so technically I'm at the office 45 hours a week.
hahaha I know that man!!! not anymore though!
why not? It is fun to work overtime and without getting paid
I try and protect the team as much as possible, the project managers will always push for more and will run you into a wall if they think they will get what they want faster and better. There is a beautiful word called "no" that I have been using and empowering the team to use, can work very well.
Hot pockets!
Not counting lunch, that's about 47/48 hours a week.
I know its rough for you and your fiance, I would suggest having her come visit you at work if you working long hours. Its always good to have dinner with your spouse even though its at work.
Working overtime comes and goes, but if its always on 24/7 then somethings up the management!
I created this thread to see if the "ghost stories" of the gaming industry were true namely: long uncompensated work hours, extensive crunch and living life like a gypsy moving everywhere because studios close and or lay offs. In other words a multitude of factors that lead to poor quality of life. So far it seems, at least in terms of working hours, they don't seem to coincide with the horror stories of the industry.
Thanks again everyone
I guess its not as bad if your organised then.
NOPE! Tossing the team $60 in Pizza instead of thousands of dollars of wages is not an even trade.
Perfect example. Ghandi in clone high asks a question to the extreme blue on the ingredients of the drink and the media says, "Excellent quesiton! here, have a tshirt." and ghandi replies. "AWESOME! That totally answered my question!"
Anyways, if that is what makes him work those long hrs happily, who are we to deny him that blissful pizza.
But yea... not even close to an even trade.
As said, i work 50 hrs a week from 8-6. Since we are now in the last 2 weeks of the project there are some later nights, but i don't go over 60hrs. AND! i like to come in early to leave early, than to come in late to leave late.
Things CAN go according to schedule if you are organized and plan accordingly. Whenever we stay late is because something was implemented that needs a lot of work, or we want to add more content to show in the build. Anyways... that's my 2 cents on this.
Freelance Artist Looking 3D Work -
Will work 55 Hours a week only if paid in monthly trips to Chuck E Cheese. You also must play Dance Dance Revolution with me during said trips.
Crunch is 50-65 hours a week.
Also, the comment on job > fianc
AT my studio crunch is happening right now and I've been working at least 60+ hour weeks for the past two to three weeks.
Advice for staying up late...electronic music lol Some people like to listen along and go for the ride and kinda pumps everyone up
I recently had a friend not from my studio who worked 3 days straight with no sleep O_O That's hardcore right there! Hehe
No crunch time lately for me during "normal" work hours go from 40-50 and I'll usually stay a lil extra time. It's very rare that I do a 9 hour shift (lunch included in this). I'll do 10-11 during normal weeks.
Got to be careful not to go too crazy I mean health is pretty important.
It's been tough for my family to understand the late work hours at times. thankfully I my gf is part of the game industry so she knows how we roll
Usually good planning and a speedy workflow will help you through and through. Of course having good management at your studio would help as well.
I did a crunch from 9am to midnight, included week-ends during 3 weeks though, and it's not going to happen again !
In the U.S. 9:00Am to 12:00Am so I am knocking on around 90 hours a week on my freelance/contract/project works, no O.T. & doing so many different things besides 3D along side the 3D, while in the middle of 3D. If that makes sense to anyone. As for a crunch that would require not sleeping, probably.
I guess I would be pretty much better off in a "stable, industry position" not sure though from what I've read/heard.
I personally wouldn't put up with the insane work hours for long unless I had no other way of supporting my new family. Although I have an insane passion for what I do my philosophy is work to live, not live to work.
The problem is they took everything the last monkey was giving out, which was a lot. So they'll have high expectations that you won't leave your desk... ever.
Probably, but it's sometimes feast or famine. Also freelance probably have to deal with tighter deadlines more often? I guess it depends on the relationship with the client...
Normally is like 45 to 50 and thats just because I want to put in the extra time.
I'd really like to hear more about this as well. This thread has done a great job dispelling a lot of the myths about weekly hours, but what about things like long-term job security? Is the industry really full of a bunch of nomads moving from studio to studio every 6-12 months because of lay-offs when a game ships/fails?
I mean, you see things thrown around like "game industry employees only last in the industry for an average of 5 years". Or people mention just how young the average age of employees is and then attribute that to the high rate of burnout.
I'm a student who will be graduating next year; I don't have industry experience so I can't actually know if that's a bunch of BS.
I will GLADLY work diligently over 60 if they give me complete buy-in on what I'm working on.