Breaking into the Industry: School Vs Self Taught
I am very much at a cross roads in life. At the moment I am working on a portfolio for SMU Guildhall, and I am conflicted if its worth taking on the $58,000 in tuition loans, or keep on pushing myself through my own learning, trial and error, and online tutorials. Many users here are very critical of game schools, although this one in particular seems to have a good reputation. The $58k becomes less of an issue assuming I actually get a job out from graduation, and I have about 20k out of my savings I am willing to put towards it right off the bat before interest.
If I do go through with it and apply, I am going in with the attitude the school will teach me very little (although I suspect it will), so that I will keep up with the self teaching. What really interest me about the school is the excellent networking opportunities, and their 90-95% placement of graduates at good studios. I am not foolish, nor naive enough to think for a minute that "guaranteeing" a job. Improving on my own time may get me there, but it leaves alot of uncertainty to me, where as the school would make me feel more comfortable with the networking opportunities, this is all of course assuming the portfolio is up to snuff to begin with.
Another issue is the horror stories I hear about the industry, specifically time. I love my fianc
If I do go through with it and apply, I am going in with the attitude the school will teach me very little (although I suspect it will), so that I will keep up with the self teaching. What really interest me about the school is the excellent networking opportunities, and their 90-95% placement of graduates at good studios. I am not foolish, nor naive enough to think for a minute that "guaranteeing" a job. Improving on my own time may get me there, but it leaves alot of uncertainty to me, where as the school would make me feel more comfortable with the networking opportunities, this is all of course assuming the portfolio is up to snuff to begin with.
Another issue is the horror stories I hear about the industry, specifically time. I love my fianc
Replies
Thanks. Actually, I do one day want to end up in Montreal if a game art degree will help (from the states).
Not going to school for art was one of the best decisions i made in my life.
I see alot of my friends that have to pay student loans basically are working to pay there loans off , where i don't have to stress about it and am able to keep most of the money i make ( damn you taxes!)
Also for the networking with people you have polycount! its the best place to network, the job i have now is only because of polycount i dont think i would have it if it wasn't for the people i met on here. Also alot of leads and such browse through these forums looking for talent so posting your stuff on polycount is a gret way to get noticed.
I would ditch school dont go why waste the money put that money toward something thats actually valuable!
Hope you make the decision that fits you man.
Cheers,
Arman
As for being 24 and it feeling like you're a little old? Don't worry about it. I just turned 24 and got my first industry gig. Some people are late starters, but 24 is still plenty young and you still have over half your twenties ahead of you.
I dunno what to say about crunch times, though I'd advise you to not take the job from the first people who show interest unless they seem like the kind of place you'd fit in. Remember that when you go to an interview at a studio, you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. You're both doing this dance where you're trying to figure out if you're right for each other. If the studio seems like it's a fairly laid-back environment and the people you meet don't seem tired or slow to greeting you, then it's probably a place that would be a good fit. If the people seem stressed and in a hurry, it's probably someplace you don't necessarily want to work.
I went to a school for game art for 3 years, learned the basics, and then decided to drop out. I've learned more in the year ive been away than i did in the three years i was there.. which makes me regret going at all :P I'd be set with an industry job if I had just taught myself like ive been doing in the last year haha
you have good stuff! Just keep doing what you're doing and you'll be set!
Ouch
Thanks for the compliments, appreciated. Honestly, the biggest problem with me waiting here to hone my skills to get my first job is how long will that take? At the moment I am laid off from doing work from my geology degree. Problem is my fianc
I hate to be 'that guy', but although your models look nice, these won't be enough to get you a game job at a decent studio in my opinion. I'm not trying to discourage you, you are talented and are def on your way, but what you show here is simply not enough. These assets do not look game ready, do you have any low poly work? Where is your texture work? Can you UV? If you are green and have no schooling, have you worked on any mods?
anyway, this is what i would ask a candidate like you. If you didn't have things to show me in each of those areas i would simply give you some encouragement and send you on your way.
As far as work hours, the things you have heard are true. Furthermore, the less reputable the studio the worse the conditions - but these are just my experiences, not researched facts.
As far as school, imo i disagree with the others that school wont teach you much more than you know. Can you rig? animate? code in maxscript or mel? Assuming your models here are the top of your work, you do have a lot to learn. However, I do agree with the others that it is possible to learn it all on your own. As you mentioned, a degree will give you leverage though when negotiating your first job - and hopefully will also help you start at a decent studio.
I don't know the school you are applying to so i can't comment on it, but I will say that there will be times you will feel that your school is a complete waste of time no matter where you attend! Just remember that it's not necessarily true. It's hard to see the forest for the trees: I did go to a reputable 3D art school and thought it was a piece of crap until I met graduates from other places and not until years later did i realize I was actually pretty lucky to attend. Would I have been as successful on my own? Or at another school? Who knows!
No one can make this decision for you.
Believe in yourself, and from the bottom of my heart, I wish you only luck!
or helping talented artists get their work done. You may think this is a joke, but there's a lot of procrastinating sometimes in art, and i've seen school actually kick these people into getting their work done due to deadline's.
though there are many talented people, especially here, who don't need that kick and do it on their own (judging by your work, i would say you are one of these). So school may not be the route for you unless you need the degree to cross the border.
There are some and many studios changing their ways though...especially in Canada I noticed who won't even look at demo reel's or resumes now without those people having 'school' experience.
Even when you apply to Ubisoft now, one big requirement in the field is 'schooling'. I'm sure they'd wave that for the very talented, but it's starting to pop up more and more (in Quebec, Canada especially too now).
I personally found some of the things I learned in school pretty helpful and informative, but also some stuff that was not necessary. Personally school was a good experience for me, but mainly because I had enough money to go and never ended up in any form of debt, which is a rarity for most.
Really awesome work perfect blue!
On topic: I think if you choose the right school you might learn quite a handful, what you need to do is run a background check on the teachers and find out what they have accomplished. If they're still in the industry and making wicked stuff, I would definitely learn from them. If they worked in the industry 8 years ago, or went to university and learned how to teach/3d modeling or something of that nature, I would re-consider.
With $58,000 I would start my own business, damn!
I believe that you can learn everything you need to know here at polycount with hard work with about 6-12 months worth of work, spending 5-8 hours a day learning new things. I'm self-taught as well, in the end even students are responsible for their own learning but they tend to spend 3 years messing around, because they don't have a sense of urgency when in school because their "future" won't hit them until the last 6 months of it.
Just my opinion though, there are a lot of students that are brilliant and hard-working
Thanks for the compliment. When you say going to Canada requires the propers schooling, are they wanting any college? Because I have an undergraduates degree, but not in an art related field. As I said earlier, I would like to end up in Montreal one day and im from the states.
Also I think I still have a long way to go before I can find employment. I still need to master UVW unwrapping, baking, and texturing, all of which are just as crucial as creating the HP.
Considering what you already taught yourself I'd think really hard about spending that 58k, it takes a long time to pay back.
Start at the polycount wiki
I'm interested in seeing what level you are when it comes to that side of things.
Also definitely worth bearing in mind that a degree is going to make immigrating to any country more simply than without one, not that its going to be easy but it will help.
No where, just about to learn it all. Began learning how to do basic poly modeling, and this last month focusing on subD. Although I just bought some Eat3D videos for baking and what not, so Im hoping that will help me gain insight to professional results/workflow quickly if I study it in depth.
And wow lots of people seem to break into the industry when they are already 24, the same age I am. Oh well, as long as I am in my 20's am I still considered "young" :poly127:
Awesome thanks. Yah I am thinking hard about it and obviously very conflicted. I just feel like I would have an easier time getting in with the networking at SMU, but is it worth the cost? I have no clue. If my texturing baking were up to snuff with my high poly modeling I would start applying to some junior positions right now. As it is, who knows how long it will be before I break in on my own. Also its more like 35k after I dump some money from savings, still a big chunk of change but not as overwhelming as 60k.
But just any degree or a art degree specifically? Because I already have an undergrads in geology.
In the end, everything revolves around how good your portfolio is. In six months you've learned how to subD model better than I did in three years :P
Just keep up this pace, apply your efforts to learning the (honestly less daunting) rest of the game art pipeline, and as soon as you do, you'll be set. I don't see where you're getting 2-3 years out of this haha
Unless of course the industry is still in the shitter job-wise... then its hard reguardless..
No I am actually in the Texas DFW area, there are some companies in Lewisville, plan, Dallas etc. So thats not a problem, and I am very open to relocation anyways if necessary. I know the 2-3 year thing im brining up is arbitrary, and I understand that ultimately is the portfolio and your skills that get you a job, not the school name or the piece of paper you graduated with. But what SMU makes less scary for me is the networking possibilities. They have big names AAA companies come to recruit their alumnis all the time such as Gearbox, Bioware, Activision etc. If I choose to go without SMU it might take longer, or shorter, to establish those kind of connections. I have no idea, I broke my crystal ball ages ago but minus the large amount of debt and its worries, SMU definitely provides the industry connections that would otherwise worry me if I went in alone.
I do have an understanding for what will give me a job, I have one part of that pretty solid and thats hard surface high poly. I still need to bake, unwrap, texture etc. Although hopefully as you said thats an easier part of the pipeline. Still need to optimize my subD modeling speed, took probably 5 days a piece at 8 hour days for the CAT and p90.
Come to Montreal! fairly cheap living, don't worry about the French and the whole language barrier thing, the games industry really isn't affected by it too much. If you have 20K in savings you could live off that for quite a while and look for jobs here. I moved here with no inkling of a job, and only 5k to live off, i got lucky and got started with a start-up, long hours, yes, but my boss has a family and we try to crunch as efficiently as possible. I have a long term GF and she has been ok with my hours so far, i'm sure they'll get worse though. iv heard good and bad about all the studios in Montreal, granted i'm NOT at these studios, but i haven't heard anything horrendous like Rockstar or anything.
I would keep going with your stuff and get a decent portfolio going, you have some nice HP stuff. Get some finished textured game pieces and start applying. You prob wont hear anything back from the bigger studios, but there are some small ones that are hiring. Toronto also has a pretty vibrant and growing industry, word is Eidos is setting up another studio there or Vancouver. Besides 58K is a but load of money for some networking, i'm sure it is really good networking/placement, but ultimately it's your call.
Good luck mang!
Thanks for your reply! Also ive looked into immigration to Canada. Its either
A. You qualify for their in need skilled workers program, which I dont
or
B. Employee sponsorship. Which would come from a game studio, which im not ready to apply to yet
Our concept artist is from Vermont though. I just asked her how she went about things, she went to Concordia U, in Montreal(which she says sucked) but it let her stay and look for jobs after she graduated as well. That may be an option. Find a cheaper school in Canada(Montreal/Toronto) and use that time to learn, as well as find a job.
But also, your in Texas! isn't Austin a huge game town?
Take that money that you would spend on schooling and put it towards living expenses and Eat3D/Gnomon DVDs. The quality of education that you will get from those DVDs is higher then most classrooms.
Take the skills taught in the DVDs and create your own scenes for your portfolio. Treat it like a job and set deadlines for yourself. Put in 8-10 hours a day of work and you will be on your way to a great portfolio. Post your WIP on the forum and update it often. You would be amazed at the contacts you can make just from having an active forum post here on Polycount. I've hired two artists in the last 3 years from Polycount based on their WIP threads, both junior artists with no prior experience. Bonus points if you can update your thread with progress daily or a couple times a week.
Set aside some money and take a trip to GDC in SF and/or attend the GDC in Texas. Show your portfolio to anyone who will look at it and talk to everyone at the job fairs. You will be surprised how far you can get without an art degree.
Frankly, if I got two similar portfolios and one had a degree from GameArtSchool01 and the other had a degree in Geology, the geologist would stand out and catch my eye.
What I'm trying to say is don't get caught up in the art school hype. Their job placement is generally rubbish and it's all a marketing ploy. I fell for it and I'm still paying $1,000 a month towards my loans, and that will continue for many more years.
If you have the passion and the opportunity, do it yourself.
I still think a degree is a good idea, especially if you want to teach or move out of country later on.
I'm not sure I would buy a house in today's market, the value is likely to keep dropping but it seems like that kind of money (or rather the monthly payments) would be better spent on something else.
If it was for something like a traditional fine art degree it might be worth it.
Well, if you're planing on living in one place for a while(I know this can be a stretch in the game industry) owning your own home still makes a lot more sense than renting. I mean think about it, when you rent, you KNOW you're just pissing away money. At least the housing market has historically gone up, and if you talk to anyone who knows anything about money, in the long term the housing market is likely to show gains again.
But if you rent, you know you're taking a loss. I'd rather *maybe* lose some money on a house, and *have a house* than rent, definitely lose money and live in a shity apartment or condo.
However I'm pretty set right now where I am, and I know this just really isnt an option for a lot of people.
Since we bought our house about two years ago, the (assessed)value has dropped about 1%, and we've probably improved the value about 10-20% through renovation, time will tell if we actually make money, break even, or lose a small amount of money on it, but we sure aren't pissing away 15K a year in renting. =P
We pay just slightly more per month to own our 2000sq foot, 4 bedroom house, than we did to rent a 2 bedroom condo before that.
In terms of college, you have to make your own decision but my 6 years of college was almost worthless. Grant it I gained some skills in traditional media like figure drawing but the few skills I gain and the six years spent (It took me so damn long because I was married and had a full time job while going to school) We practically meaningless.
I was 100% self taught for all of my CG and game art knowledge. Tons of Gnomon DVDs and doing as many comps as I could find. Your portfolio is ultimately what gets you the job.
I got such a late start in the gaming industry just because it took me almost 28 years to grow a pair to finally go for my dream.
I got my first gaming gig without even a single game res piece in my portfolio. I just had years of high res 3d work and illustration work. I got into the industry as a concept artist, and fought and earned myself a character artist position.
I personally think for people that want it bad enough there is no education better than self education. Soak EVERYTHING you can up and go for it.
/smh
24 isn't old.
If you can't get into the industry after you are 24, I may as well just turn in now.
Also, don't buy a house unless you really plan to stay in the area for a long time; my wife and I are currently stuck in a house in a location with 0 industry jobs and are having a really difficult time getting out of here.
wow just realized how much of a thread necro this was, heh.
All else being equal, would you guys respect an applicant more who had self-taught rather than gone to a school?
Education background won't matter much to me if I were in the interviewing side.
Either one. If you're not a douche during the interview and if both your portfolios are gold, i'd give equal thumbs up.
I'll let the applicants forward whatever edge they have over the other.
FIGHT!
But...if one of you is a girl and the art-d has been one giant sausage fest since start up days...yeah....lets see those mungas...just kidding.
===========
Serious interview tip...if the job ad says Max or Maya experience, when they ask what's or where you're more comfortable ALWAYS say their number 1 app of choice evevn if it's not. And don't flinch after you say it or else they'll give you an on the spot competence test.
My last interview I tried being 100% honest like the boy scout interview book says, since I wasn't desperate or "hungry enough" to work on-site again.
Yup, didn't get it. But it annoyed me that the ex co-worker who I referred the company to in llinkedin months before they started hiring again got the job. Found out via his linkeidn status.
I'm okay he got the job, just maybe after I benefited from that lead first would have been a better outcome for me.
From a personal perspective: Both ways require learning and dedication. People who think college is easy and is all about getting knowledge spoon fed have probably not been to college.
From someone who makes hiring decisions: The result counts - can you get the job done? Candidates demonstrate this via their folio. If an ability is not demonstrated in the folio and I want this ability/skill in the candidate I prefer college grads where I see this skill in the list of courses they've taken. That way I can assume the guy knows at least the basics and we can build on that. (most resumes I look at are from juniors btw).
disclaimer: if a candidate is absolutely awesome my hiring decision making process does change, but most of the guys I deal with are just in the middle...
True story.
Dad of studio owner asks me my age then he goes: "Once you hit 30 it's all downhill from there."
4 years later I was out of the game studiio/AAA level industry.
So the point is...nothing. But I think under 30 you're good to start your studio career. Above 30...try to be realistic with your asking salary if you want to get hired. Like, just because you did IT or graphic design from your previous career doesn't mean 70K off the bat as a jr. is realistic or competitive.
That's if you really want to work in a studio, with benefits and the glamour (if it's a brand name studio).
Just my opinion.
When you say you were out of the industry MagicSugar. Do you mean you've been unable to find work since then and that you had turned 34?
P.S: I am a bit biased, but honestly wish this school was around when I was looking.
Spark
The people I met there knew a whole lot more about how to prepare ones self to get in the industry, in fact one of my friends from college actually showed me polycount.
Im 21 and I feel Im way behind like you so Im have been spending as much time as I can learning stuff so when I do graduate I might have a chance of getting a job and paying off those damn loans.
My college is a state school so the dont teach anything related to game art its strictly fine art. So this past year I have been teaching my self everything, and now that I know about this stuff Im really tempted to just drop out but I feel like I'm in to far at this point.
Anyways you already know about polycount and have access to all this information, I had no clue and probably still wouldn't have a clue if I never met my friends at college.
Honestly at this point if I were you I wouldn't go if you are strictly looking to get a degree in game realted things.
However if you are going to a nice school that has a game design program I might because I know that some schools work with companies.
For example my friend goes to The Art Institute of California San-Diego, he is about at my skill level and my age but he got an internship at Sony Entertainment and then got hired as a temp artist working on planetside 2. Only because SOE works with the college and offers internships to the students there.
I feel you man.
Took me till I was like 27 to figure out I REALLY wanted to do art after flopping around between graphic design positions.
Now I work on my art/skills every day and night trying to get my portfolio ready and get better; and the day job is just... a day job until I can get a job doing art that I love.
Parents telling me that going into more of a fine arts degree is a total waste of time and pushing me towards 'graphic design' was totally helpful in college, but I can't really blame that now, haha. May have gotten my priorities straight sooner if it hadn't turned out like that though...
And I sure HOPE magicsugar doesn't mean he can't find a job at 34
I am under the impression that age doesn't matter, skill does; and its refreshing to see that reflected in this thread. Thankfully I get paid pretty crap at my day job now, so going into a junior postition in a studion won't be a problem, haha.
The best thing you can do for yourself as an artist is have a strong traditional foundation. The 3d stuff can definitely be learned outside of the classroom. Most of 3d teachers I had sucked, or simply wasted my time, with 1 or 2 particular exceptions.
Please god no. If what one of their ex-teachers told me is true, their curriculum has been out of date for years now, and they aren't likely to change any time soon.
Found work as a 3d modeler for a local company. Didn't last long when economy went bust, but I'm currently on a sweet gig for a defense contractor (plus the drawing job).
In between 3d gigs (studio animator to modeler) I did unrelated jobs to pay the rent and work on my 2d skills off hours. Low pay for sure than what I was getting but I gained a ton load of life experiences that I'd miss for sure if I just stuck in games - where it's almost like a bubble environment.
Good luck in your journey. Be fliexible to adapt if you wanna get the cool art jobs. If that means working at a mcjob for a bit just so you can pay your bills and upgrade (night school, self-study), do it.
I'm fortunate enough to have a decent steady job so quite grateful for that, but I'll be working on making the dream happen until it does. Only recently back in the game but the determination has never been stronger.
...I first came across polycount 10 years ago and having come back to the site now I can see it's better than ever! Aside from the work itself, one thing I look forward to the most is just working with the kind of people polycount and other cg/anim websites are so abundant with.
My experience out of the industry is that most people have next to no passion for what they do and it can be infuriating.
But yeah enough of that, good luck to you and everyone else!