I think piracy is a smaller problem then most people realize, and probably not worth doing much about so long as the situation doesn't get any worse.
I believe the largest problem with piracy from a practical standpoint is actually that most pirates are worthless assholes who have way too much free time, which they use to clog up your user community with negativity. Often they will download some shitty broken version of your game and then complain incessantly about minor issues or problems that are not in the real release.
Especially for smaller devs, word of mouth and your user community are your most valuable assets, and damage to those could have a large negative impact on sales.
I'm surprised so many here think that cracked software on torrent sites are generally broken, flawed versions of their legal counterparts. I've used cracked software and I can assert with confidence that this is not the case. I have only encountered two pieces of software that would not work for me and that was DRM related. Every other time, the software performs just as well or better than the protected copy.
Prior:
I do have some thoughts for alternative business models (like an "a la cart" game torrenting subscription service). I'm just beat from digging my car out of a snow drift today and I'm not interested in detailing an entire business plan right now. Nevertheless, a willingness to be perpetually adaptable is key to staying solvent these days. There are some good ideas out there right now and I'm glad for it. I hope that more people see this as an alternative to waging war with their potential customers.
I do have some thoughts for alternative business models (like an "a la cart" game torrenting subscription service).
This service already exists and is completely legitimate, its called Gamefly. Charging people a fee to carry out illegal activities is not a business model, and the same people who would rather torrent a game than buy it or rent it, will refuse to use your service as well.
This is simply an incorrect statement, if you can stop people from copying a file, that doesn't mean you no longer need copyright law. Copyright law is still absolutely essential to prevent some 3rd party from creating, from scratch, a copy of your work, product etc. This is less applicable to unique works of art as it is to software, and general products/branding. But very much necessary none the less.
If I make my own Mario game, and call it "Mario Jizz party 69" and try to sell, you think Nintendo isn't going to sue me for copyright infringement, simply because I didn't directly copy the files from their game?
Well, I was over-reaching in my previous statement. What I was meaning to imply was that you'd have no need of copyright to protect your works from those that lack the means to produce a competing work of their own. You're right, the need to prevent copyright plagiarism still remains. If nothing else, I will never condone taking the work of another and claiming credit for it. There is no excuse to say someone's work is your work.
Edit:
One thing I missed before is your Mario analogy. That's incorrect. Mario is a registered trademark and to use it would put their claim on that trademark at risk. They would sue you to prevent the loss of their trademark, not because you used their ideas. There's nothing stopping you from making a game starring an Italian plumber who stomps mushrooms in a magic kingdom to rescue a princess besieged by a monster.
This service already exists and is completely legitimate, its called Gamefly. Charging people a fee to carry out illegal activities is not a business model, and the same people who would rather torrent a game than buy it or rent it, will refuse to use your service as well.
It was an idea. I didn't say it was a complete and working solution. To your point though, they don't provide such a service for PC. At least not GameFly.
I'm surprised so many here think that cracked software on torrent sites are generally broken, flawed versions of their legal counterparts. I've used cracked software and I can assert with confidence that this is not the case. I have only encountered two pieces of software that would not work for me and that was DRM related. Every other time, the software performs just as well or better than the protected copy.
Your experience is different than mine then. If the thing you download is not a virus or corrupted, often it is missing documentation, help files and updates that fix known bugs.
I wonder how many times you have actually compared the retail and pirated versions.
Sometimes it is not possible for a pirate to tell that DRM caused their problem. I think it was Titan Quest where it would check a few levels into the game to see if you had a legit copy and if you didn't it would dump you to the desktop. Pirates flooded forums claiming the game was crashy.
Your experience is different than mine then. If the thing you download is not a virus or corrupted, often it is missing documentation, help files and updates that fix known bugs.
I wonder how many times you have actually compared the retail and pirated versions.
Sometimes it is not possible for a pirate to tell that DRM caused their problem. I think it was Titan Quest where it would check a few levels into the game to see if you had a legit copy and if you didn't it would dump you to the desktop. Pirates flooded forums claiming the game was crashy.
Well, I can't recall any games that were consistently failure prone. I only downloaded trustworthy sources of torrents. The one thing The Pirate Bay does not condone and regularly moderates is malware. Of the games that I proceeded to buy, I didn't see any appreciable difference. I'm also not like the common computer user. I have a high aptitude for technology.
game forum: "Hey guys, I can't get this game to work can you help?"
mods and other users: "well you probably torrented it!!! That's the only way it can be broken!" and you can't enlighten them because the discussion of piracy is of course banworthy offence, not just the actual illegal sharing.
The same guys also universally assume that any P2P download is piracy. And inherently dangerous to your system. Because pirates made it and put computer scurvy in there.
I'm surprised so many here think that cracked software on torrent sites are generally broken, flawed versions of their legal counterparts. I've used cracked software and I can assert with confidence that this is not the case. I have only encountered two pieces of software that would not work for me and that was DRM related. Every other time, the software performs just as well or better than the protected copy.
Yes, I hear that a lot too. Along with the claim that it's in any way difficult to come by.
Grevar, I assume you tested your theory on your computer with both legit versions vs the pirated ones when you made that wide (pirated version works better) assumption?
Grevar, I assume you tested your theory on your computer with both legit versions vs the pirated ones when you made that wide (pirated version works better) assumption?
Yes. For example, Dragon Age: Origins. I downloaded the cracked version and played it. It worked fine. No crashing. No bugs. No malware. I saw a special on Steam for it and bought a copy. I now have a legal copy. The experience was identical aside from the authentication check.
I won't deny that pirated copies just work as well as regular ones due to the fact that beyond drm devs wont bother much with advanced game-degrading tactics these days.
But I mean more the better part in "just as well or better"
I won't deny that pirated copies just work as well as regular ones due to the fact that beyond drm devs wont bother much with advanced game-degrading tactics these days.
But I mean more the better part "just as well or better"
Well, I can't speak from personal experience that I can recall, but Assassin's Creed 2 had some pretty game breaking DRM on it that the hackers cracked and made a better piece of software of it. Who wants to play a game that stops and loses your progress just because your internet service had a hiccup?
Oh, here's an example. I bought Dark Star one when I still had XP. I have Win 7 now and I can't get it to run. I haven't tried any cracks and the PC support for the game seems non-existent, so perhaps I'll experiment with that?
Well, I can't speak from personal experience that I can recall, but Assassin's Creed 2 had some pretty game breaking DRM on it that the hackers cracked and made a better piece of software of it. Who wants to play a game that stops and loses your progress just because your internet service had a hiccup?
Oh, here's an example. I bought Dark Star one when I still had XP. I have Win 7 now and I can't get it to run. I haven't tried any cracks and the PC support for the game seems non-existent, so perhaps I'll experiment with that?
Assassins creed 2 had something out of the extreme, it was definitely not the rule.
Old games are going to be less functional over time regardless if you have a legal or not legal copy, due to obvious compatibility reasons.
Assassins creed 2 had something out of the extreme, it was definitely not the rule.
Old games are going to be less functional over time regardless if you have a legal or not legal copy, due to obvious compatibility reasons.
Point taken. I can't recall any specific instance out of hand. It's just in the back of my mind that there has been DRM that broke a game for a lot of people where cracking it fixed it. I'll have to revisit that point when I can remember a specific example. I have to admit being wrong on this until I can find some evidence to the contrary.
We are in agreement that performance quality is still equal in the majority of cases. The only argument I could logically make is that DRM presents an obstacle that paying customers have to deal with that those whom download a cracked version don't. The crack that is most common is easy to do for anyone smart enough to use the Windows file manager.
Nevertheless, the low risk, easy access, and high payoff is still true.
Actually, I think Mario Jizz Party is trademark infringement not copyright. Copyright is to do with distrobution, trademark is to do with recognisable components associated with a brand ie- making someone think something you're selling comes from another company
nintendo would still pound you into a greasy stain for it though
Actually, I think Mario Jizz Party is trademark infringement not copyright. Copyright is to do with distrobution, trademark is to do with recognisable components associated with a brand ie- making someone think something you're selling comes from another company
nintendo would still pound you into a greasy stain for it though
Well, I was over-reaching in my previous statement. What I was meaning to imply was that you'd have no need of copyright to protect your works from those that lack the means to produce a competing work of their own. You're right, the need to prevent copyright plagiarism still remains. If nothing else, I will never condone taking the work of another and claiming credit for it. There is no excuse to say someone's work is your work.
Edit:
One thing I missed before is your Mario analogy. That's incorrect. Mario is a registered trademark and to use it would put their claim on that trademark at risk. They would sue you to prevent the loss of their trademark, not because you used their ideas. There's nothing stopping you from making a game starring an Italian plumber who stomps mushrooms in a magic kingdom to rescue a princess besieged by a monster.
The previous mentioned issue on the Halo adaptation is the same. They can make a Halo Universe game so long as they don't use any trademarks in their version.
The previous mentioned issue on the Halo adaptation is the same. They can make a Halo Universe game so long as they don't use any trademarks in their version.
Or copy the design of the master chief, use the word "Halo", or copy any of the designs from the game like the warthog or the covenant.
Copyright covers derivative works too. Basically you cannot make fan art unless it's tolerated by the people who made the original IP.
well, masterchiefs design, and vehicle designs etc are trademarks, so you could make a halo game as long as nothing was called halo or looked exactly the same as halo.
Like how supreme commander is really total annihilation 2, they just didn't have the IP ownership
All this is spoken from the point of view of people who have never been victimized by the serious loss of income piracy causes. Those who say it's not a problem are making pointless claims backed by no useful, generally anecdotal proof. It's not a problem, FOR YOU, because you're not trying to make a living from your games.
Try running a business that actually needs it's revenues. My studio is not Autodesk or Activision, and a 90% piracy rate would generally destroy my ability to make games for a living.
I never understood why people who have no muscle memory think they have true experience or understanding of an issue. Enough already.
Thanks Peter, but I run a studio too. I live off selling games, and we have had our run-ins with piracy, but from where I'm standing your "90% piracy rate" looks like bullshit.
Sometimes I wonder what the companies' view of "Free software" data projects based on their GPLed sources are like. I mean, what if someone (for example) forked Lugaru source and made some robot fighting game without using a single byte of copyrighted Lugaru data? Would that be seen by the company as some shameless bootleggy ripoff?
...not that I'm ever going to do that anyway but still, Robots > Rabbits, and I wonder how an inferior, FOSS-motivated clone would do against profit.
Some issue additional clauses to protect trademarks like what was done for the GPL RTCW source so no stupid unimaginative names like OpenWolf or FreenemyTerritory could ever be done for such a similar project.
I learned the hard way 3D Realms doesn't like such a thing even when you come clean.
Actually just getting kinda tired of greever starting these threads. The last one degenerated, and this one is not going to do much better.
Lately we've just seen so much of this conflict inducing thread nonsense from people who have no idea what it's like on the ground. If the point of the thread was to have some intellectual conversation about it, all the fella had to do was search for the previous 10 threads on the subject that all went the same way and read to his heart's content.
As an aside, you mentioned value qualification, so I have to say that I have a comp sci degree attained over years of Calc, Stats, Linear, and Dif EQ classes mate.
Anyway, You know I love you to bits you stealth assassin you; come throw a few back with us at GDC if you're going.
Sometimes I wonder what the companies' view of "Free software" data projects based on their GPLed sources are like. I mean, what if someone (for example) forked Lugaru source and made some robot fighting game without using a single byte of copyrighted Lugaru data? Would that be seen by the company as some shameless bootleggy ripoff?
It would be awesome if someone did that. It's one of the reasons we made the game open source.
The asshole who put the game up on the app store was pretty clearly acting in bad faith, and using a lot of stuff that was totally ripped from our website etc.
Peter: Your maths has me beat-- I wish I was still in SF, but I'm not going to make it out to GDC this year
Actually just getting kinda tired of greever starting these threads. The last one degenerated, and this one is not going to do much better.
Lately we've just seen so much of this conflict inducing thread nonsense from people who have no idea what it's like on the ground. If the point of the thread was to have some intellectual conversation about it, all the fella had to do was search for the previous 10 threads on the subject that all went the same way and read to his heart's content.
As an aside, you mentioned value qualification, so I have to say that I have a comp sci degree attained over years of Calc, Stats, Linear, and Dif EQ classes mate.
Anyway, You know I love you to bits you stealth assassin you; come throw a few back with us at GDC if you're going.
I'm kinda getting tired of people putting words in my mouth. I've not worked in the industry, so surely I must be some idiot just rambling nonsense. I don't mindlessly agree with your opinion, so I must be in favor of infringement and I'm actively trying to put you all out of jobs. Your problem is you just make snap judgments about people and once you've done that you have no interest in listening to anything else. I made this thread so the people that who don't want to listen to me could just avoid it altogether. Take advantage of the opportunity I've provided you.
So I heard Piracy was bad since it in most cases lowers profit for developers and may cost them their jobs if no revenue is made.
The bad always outweighs the good. And I guess the only way you can truly experience the bad is if it's done to you.
Speaking from complete lack of experience and thinking you should still be listened too by people with experience seems very.. odd?
Anyway, I'm against piracy, I'm not a dev but I recognize that people should get paid for their work.
If I buy a game I didn't like that's my fault. If devs didn't release a demo I could try it at a friends or at the store before buying it. If a dev introduces a DRM with their game that I find intrusive on one platform I could always get it on another, or hey, this might be crazy but, I could also not get it. Introducing shades of grey to the ancient trade of "work for pay" seems like something a thief/criminal/asshole would do.
As for directly copying or stealing ideas: Anyone who does it can honestly quit life as a creative person, because that's the last thing they are.
Imitation is fine as long as the imitator is creative enough to mix in their own thing (e.g. Darksiders) and not outright steal ideas and change little (Gameloft)
Anyway, I'm against piracy, I'm not a dev but I recognize that people should get paid for their work.
If I buy a game I didn't like that's my fault. If devs didn't release a demo I could try it at a friends or at the store before buying it. If a dev introduces a DRM with their game that I find intrusive on one platform I could always get it on another, or hey, this might be crazy but, I could also not get it. Introducing shades of grey to the ancient trade of "work for pay" seems like something a thief/criminal/asshole would do.
As for directly copying or stealing ideas: Anyone who does it can honestly quit life as a creative person, because that's the last thing they are.
Imitation is fine as long as the imitator is creative enough to mix in their own thing (e.g. Darksiders) and not outright steal ideas and change little (Gameloft)
"If a dev introduces a DRM with their game that I find intrusive on one platform I could always get it on another, or hey, this might be crazy but, I could also not get it."
I don't find any fault in the logic of your statment, but would it be practical to try to make them all see it that way? It would be far less work and better for your reputation to find something that makes use of all of those people playing for free. I don't think they'll respond to people telling them to "just pay for it". They know you can't stop them, so your comment comes of as impotent and a bit arrogant.
Oh wait, I see something here. I know why people think I'm advocating just letting people "get away with it". I just noticed it. You guys think I'm saying it's okay to infringe because I'm not advocating to actively try to resist it. This isn't as simple as, "if you're not against it, you're for it." It's just a matter of picking your battles and the battle against infringement can't be won. It's not a matter of making it go away. It's a matter of making it not matter to your income.
So, piracy is bad. Is it worth the money, bad public relations and effort in fighting it? I don't think so. Can it be made to serve the industry? Hell yes. There's always something people will pay for.
"Speaking from complete lack of experience and thinking you should still be listened too by people with experience seems very.. odd?"
I've never claimed to be an expert on piracy, but are you trying to say that people in the industry are? I find that hard to believe with all of the industry "studies" that come up and are continually proven to be erroneous or just flat out lies. Since when did these artists become behavioral psychologists? I don't have to experience making art for profit and have someone rip it off to understand infringement. Anybody who's ever had something of theirs stolen knows how that feels.
Do you want me to leave? Is that it? Am I so terrible that I shouldn't be allowed to be here? I can't believe this. I tried to move this to where anyone who didn't want to see my comments could just avoid it and you take it upon yourself to come after me and try to shower me with more negativity. I think you must like pushing me until I come unhinged.
All I've encountered since I came here is people insulting me and trying to make me feel subhuman for not thinking like them. Excuse me for having an opinion other than what you want to hear and the conviction to defend it. I didn't realize that being different was a crime. I never once implied that anyone didn't belong here nor pass out direct and intentional insults. I didn't imply anyone was stupid or was making lame excuses to justify their point of view, but I've had several people do that to me. I didn't try to belittle anyone, but that what I got in return.
So if you have a problem with my viewpoints just stay away from my posts and put me on ignore. I have no interest in talking to anyone who can't accept that someone might have a different opinion or can't seem get it straight what my position is. Here's a clue everybody: Selling copies like they're the same as a toaster and crying foul when people realize that files are quite obviously easy to copy just makes you look petty. And freeloading stuff that needs funding to be made isn't right either. So guess what? Both sides are wrong! What a surprise!
Can we just stop arguing about the damn morality of it? It's a huge waste of time and I'm tired of being accused of being a piracy supporter. I'm not. Being against wasting effort fighting it is not the same as supporting it.
Maybe this will get me banned? I don't know, but if it does, you'll have your wish and go gloat. If you people are representing the industry, I'd suggest the industry finds another publicist.
Don't victimize yourself over comments from others. You should know why people are reacting like they are on an art forum consisting mostly of people with industry experience. As for your example with the toaster: Once they invent a way to clone organic and non organic objects, well, what then? There should be 1 standard on what constitutes an item, nomatter how it's made or how easy it is to copy, you own what you make, simple as that.
But I'll admit it seems to be turning bit too much into a "read half of greevars post and reply" kind of attitude, which isn't exactly fair.
But, I guess I can see the other peoples issue with this too, this is a pretty heated subject and some might feel you're "trolling" for replies.
I guess the best thing to do is for everyone to keep their opinions to themselves in regards to controversial subjects, no matter the intention of the discussion.
And no this does not mean people are not "mature" enough to discuss it. It means people have strong feelings/opinions about it and that discussing it can only end badly, since no agreement can be reached with any part.
"just stay away from my posts and put me on ignore"
man, that's not a clever attitude on an art forum full of professionals. This kinda says to me you're much more interested in general discussion than you are pimping and previews, where you could learn from the very same people you're suggesting ignore you. How is anyone going to see your artwork if you alienate them into ignoring you in here?
I'm convinced that greevar is an Andy Kaufman level joke.
It's been explained to you countless times that the reason people treat you like shit isn't because of your radical opinion but more because of your complete misunderstanding of reality. The fact that you even think you could be the solution to this problem shows how far out of touch you are. Honestly, man, if you spent half as long actually working and gaining a reputation with your portfolio rather than gaining a reputation as being a wanker - things might be different. I'm not here to put you down, even though you make it easy, but from day one you've been a babbling brook of bullshit. From the DW5 scam thread up until now you're flooding the forum with your hubris causing actual valued members of the forum to flat out ignore anything you do - including what little art you might produce. Like I said before, we can tell the difference between being a douchebag and wanting crits, but man, you're doing it to yourself.
Replies
I'm surprised so many here think that cracked software on torrent sites are generally broken, flawed versions of their legal counterparts. I've used cracked software and I can assert with confidence that this is not the case. I have only encountered two pieces of software that would not work for me and that was DRM related. Every other time, the software performs just as well or better than the protected copy.
Prior:
I do have some thoughts for alternative business models (like an "a la cart" game torrenting subscription service). I'm just beat from digging my car out of a snow drift today and I'm not interested in detailing an entire business plan right now. Nevertheless, a willingness to be perpetually adaptable is key to staying solvent these days. There are some good ideas out there right now and I'm glad for it. I hope that more people see this as an alternative to waging war with their potential customers.
This service already exists and is completely legitimate, its called Gamefly. Charging people a fee to carry out illegal activities is not a business model, and the same people who would rather torrent a game than buy it or rent it, will refuse to use your service as well.
Well, I was over-reaching in my previous statement. What I was meaning to imply was that you'd have no need of copyright to protect your works from those that lack the means to produce a competing work of their own. You're right, the need to prevent copyright plagiarism still remains. If nothing else, I will never condone taking the work of another and claiming credit for it. There is no excuse to say someone's work is your work.
Edit:
One thing I missed before is your Mario analogy. That's incorrect. Mario is a registered trademark and to use it would put their claim on that trademark at risk. They would sue you to prevent the loss of their trademark, not because you used their ideas. There's nothing stopping you from making a game starring an Italian plumber who stomps mushrooms in a magic kingdom to rescue a princess besieged by a monster.
It was an idea. I didn't say it was a complete and working solution. To your point though, they don't provide such a service for PC. At least not GameFly.
Your experience is different than mine then. If the thing you download is not a virus or corrupted, often it is missing documentation, help files and updates that fix known bugs.
I wonder how many times you have actually compared the retail and pirated versions.
Sometimes it is not possible for a pirate to tell that DRM caused their problem. I think it was Titan Quest where it would check a few levels into the game to see if you had a legit copy and if you didn't it would dump you to the desktop. Pirates flooded forums claiming the game was crashy.
Well, I can't recall any games that were consistently failure prone. I only downloaded trustworthy sources of torrents. The one thing The Pirate Bay does not condone and regularly moderates is malware. Of the games that I proceeded to buy, I didn't see any appreciable difference. I'm also not like the common computer user. I have a high aptitude for technology.
mods and other users: "well you probably torrented it!!! That's the only way it can be broken!" and you can't enlighten them because the discussion of piracy is of course banworthy offence, not just the actual illegal sharing.
The same guys also universally assume that any P2P download is piracy. And inherently dangerous to your system. Because pirates made it and put computer scurvy in there. Yes, I hear that a lot too. Along with the claim that it's in any way difficult to come by.
Yes. For example, Dragon Age: Origins. I downloaded the cracked version and played it. It worked fine. No crashing. No bugs. No malware. I saw a special on Steam for it and bought a copy. I now have a legal copy. The experience was identical aside from the authentication check.
But I mean more the better part in "just as well or better"
Well, I can't speak from personal experience that I can recall, but Assassin's Creed 2 had some pretty game breaking DRM on it that the hackers cracked and made a better piece of software of it. Who wants to play a game that stops and loses your progress just because your internet service had a hiccup?
Oh, here's an example. I bought Dark Star one when I still had XP. I have Win 7 now and I can't get it to run. I haven't tried any cracks and the PC support for the game seems non-existent, so perhaps I'll experiment with that?
Assassins creed 2 had something out of the extreme, it was definitely not the rule.
Old games are going to be less functional over time regardless if you have a legal or not legal copy, due to obvious compatibility reasons.
Point taken. I can't recall any specific instance out of hand. It's just in the back of my mind that there has been DRM that broke a game for a lot of people where cracking it fixed it. I'll have to revisit that point when I can remember a specific example. I have to admit being wrong on this until I can find some evidence to the contrary.
We are in agreement that performance quality is still equal in the majority of cases. The only argument I could logically make is that DRM presents an obstacle that paying customers have to deal with that those whom download a cracked version don't. The crack that is most common is easy to do for anyone smart enough to use the Windows file manager.
Nevertheless, the low risk, easy access, and high payoff is still true.
nintendo would still pound you into a greasy stain for it though
Yeah, I mentioned that in my earlier comment.
The previous mentioned issue on the Halo adaptation is the same. They can make a Halo Universe game so long as they don't use any trademarks in their version.
Or copy the design of the master chief, use the word "Halo", or copy any of the designs from the game like the warthog or the covenant.
Copyright covers derivative works too. Basically you cannot make fan art unless it's tolerated by the people who made the original IP.
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
Like how supreme commander is really total annihilation 2, they just didn't have the IP ownership
Try running a business that actually needs it's revenues. My studio is not Autodesk or Activision, and a 90% piracy rate would generally destroy my ability to make games for a living.
I never understood why people who have no muscle memory think they have true experience or understanding of an issue. Enough already.
Here is an explanation:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy
...not that I'm ever going to do that anyway but still, Robots > Rabbits, and I wonder how an inferior, FOSS-motivated clone would do against profit.
Some issue additional clauses to protect trademarks like what was done for the GPL RTCW source so no stupid unimaginative names like OpenWolf or FreenemyTerritory could ever be done for such a similar project.
I learned the hard way 3D Realms doesn't like such a thing even when you come clean.
Btw, Nick wants his underwear back; you can give it to him if you're going to GDC.
Oh, and I wasn't even talking to you.
Maybe it seems like bullshit because you haven't taken as much math and statistics as I have.
You can tell Nick he is never getting those back. They are part of my collection now
Sorry, I thought you were reacting to my statement that piracy is not really a big deal at it's current level-- I should probably chill out a bit
Lately we've just seen so much of this conflict inducing thread nonsense from people who have no idea what it's like on the ground. If the point of the thread was to have some intellectual conversation about it, all the fella had to do was search for the previous 10 threads on the subject that all went the same way and read to his heart's content.
As an aside, you mentioned value qualification, so I have to say that I have a comp sci degree attained over years of Calc, Stats, Linear, and Dif EQ classes mate.
Anyway, You know I love you to bits you stealth assassin you; come throw a few back with us at GDC if you're going.
It would be awesome if someone did that. It's one of the reasons we made the game open source.
The asshole who put the game up on the app store was pretty clearly acting in bad faith, and using a lot of stuff that was totally ripped from our website etc.
Peter: Your maths has me beat-- I wish I was still in SF, but I'm not going to make it out to GDC this year
I'm kinda getting tired of people putting words in my mouth. I've not worked in the industry, so surely I must be some idiot just rambling nonsense. I don't mindlessly agree with your opinion, so I must be in favor of infringement and I'm actively trying to put you all out of jobs. Your problem is you just make snap judgments about people and once you've done that you have no interest in listening to anything else. I made this thread so the people that who don't want to listen to me could just avoid it altogether. Take advantage of the opportunity I've provided you.
The bad always outweighs the good. And I guess the only way you can truly experience the bad is if it's done to you.
Speaking from complete lack of experience and thinking you should still be listened too by people with experience seems very.. odd?
Anyway, I'm against piracy, I'm not a dev but I recognize that people should get paid for their work.
If I buy a game I didn't like that's my fault. If devs didn't release a demo I could try it at a friends or at the store before buying it. If a dev introduces a DRM with their game that I find intrusive on one platform I could always get it on another, or hey, this might be crazy but, I could also not get it. Introducing shades of grey to the ancient trade of "work for pay" seems like something a thief/criminal/asshole would do.
As for directly copying or stealing ideas: Anyone who does it can honestly quit life as a creative person, because that's the last thing they are.
Imitation is fine as long as the imitator is creative enough to mix in their own thing (e.g. Darksiders) and not outright steal ideas and change little (Gameloft)
"If a dev introduces a DRM with their game that I find intrusive on one platform I could always get it on another, or hey, this might be crazy but, I could also not get it."
I don't find any fault in the logic of your statment, but would it be practical to try to make them all see it that way? It would be far less work and better for your reputation to find something that makes use of all of those people playing for free. I don't think they'll respond to people telling them to "just pay for it". They know you can't stop them, so your comment comes of as impotent and a bit arrogant.
Oh wait, I see something here. I know why people think I'm advocating just letting people "get away with it". I just noticed it. You guys think I'm saying it's okay to infringe because I'm not advocating to actively try to resist it. This isn't as simple as, "if you're not against it, you're for it." It's just a matter of picking your battles and the battle against infringement can't be won. It's not a matter of making it go away. It's a matter of making it not matter to your income.
So, piracy is bad. Is it worth the money, bad public relations and effort in fighting it? I don't think so. Can it be made to serve the industry? Hell yes. There's always something people will pay for.
"Speaking from complete lack of experience and thinking you should still be listened too by people with experience seems very.. odd?"
I've never claimed to be an expert on piracy, but are you trying to say that people in the industry are? I find that hard to believe with all of the industry "studies" that come up and are continually proven to be erroneous or just flat out lies. Since when did these artists become behavioral psychologists? I don't have to experience making art for profit and have someone rip it off to understand infringement. Anybody who's ever had something of theirs stolen knows how that feels.
Clearly, you can't.
Do you want me to leave? Is that it? Am I so terrible that I shouldn't be allowed to be here? I can't believe this. I tried to move this to where anyone who didn't want to see my comments could just avoid it and you take it upon yourself to come after me and try to shower me with more negativity. I think you must like pushing me until I come unhinged.
All I've encountered since I came here is people insulting me and trying to make me feel subhuman for not thinking like them. Excuse me for having an opinion other than what you want to hear and the conviction to defend it. I didn't realize that being different was a crime. I never once implied that anyone didn't belong here nor pass out direct and intentional insults. I didn't imply anyone was stupid or was making lame excuses to justify their point of view, but I've had several people do that to me. I didn't try to belittle anyone, but that what I got in return.
So if you have a problem with my viewpoints just stay away from my posts and put me on ignore. I have no interest in talking to anyone who can't accept that someone might have a different opinion or can't seem get it straight what my position is. Here's a clue everybody: Selling copies like they're the same as a toaster and crying foul when people realize that files are quite obviously easy to copy just makes you look petty. And freeloading stuff that needs funding to be made isn't right either. So guess what? Both sides are wrong! What a surprise!
Can we just stop arguing about the damn morality of it? It's a huge waste of time and I'm tired of being accused of being a piracy supporter. I'm not. Being against wasting effort fighting it is not the same as supporting it.
Maybe this will get me banned? I don't know, but if it does, you'll have your wish and go gloat. If you people are representing the industry, I'd suggest the industry finds another publicist.
But I'll admit it seems to be turning bit too much into a "read half of greevars post and reply" kind of attitude, which isn't exactly fair.
But, I guess I can see the other peoples issue with this too, this is a pretty heated subject and some might feel you're "trolling" for replies.
I guess the best thing to do is for everyone to keep their opinions to themselves in regards to controversial subjects, no matter the intention of the discussion.
And no this does not mean people are not "mature" enough to discuss it. It means people have strong feelings/opinions about it and that discussing it can only end badly, since no agreement can be reached with any part.
I wish this was a kitten thread.
man, that's not a clever attitude on an art forum full of professionals. This kinda says to me you're much more interested in general discussion than you are pimping and previews, where you could learn from the very same people you're suggesting ignore you. How is anyone going to see your artwork if you alienate them into ignoring you in here?
It's been explained to you countless times that the reason people treat you like shit isn't because of your radical opinion but more because of your complete misunderstanding of reality. The fact that you even think you could be the solution to this problem shows how far out of touch you are. Honestly, man, if you spent half as long actually working and gaining a reputation with your portfolio rather than gaining a reputation as being a wanker - things might be different. I'm not here to put you down, even though you make it easy, but from day one you've been a babbling brook of bullshit. From the DW5 scam thread up until now you're flooding the forum with your hubris causing actual valued members of the forum to flat out ignore anything you do - including what little art you might produce. Like I said before, we can tell the difference between being a douchebag and wanting crits, but man, you're doing it to yourself.