However, you can dodge it with some scripts; rotating a blob shadow around by locking the projector's angle to that of the light source, or you can use volumetric shadows.
i really dislike the fact that unity indie has no realtime shadows, its something thats so common nowadays that it should be included. i refuse to pay for a pro version when i can use UDK for free..
i will admit though that i love the simplicity of unity
i really dislike the fact that unity indie has no realtime shadows, its something thats so common nowadays that it should be included. i refuse to pay for a pro version when i can use UDK for free..
i will admit though that i love the simplicity of unity
Personally I'm not a fan of their Pro shadows anyway. The hi-res hard shadows still don't stand up to close inspection and the soft shadows look like a blurry low-res shadow. Especially on a surface such as a racetrack or concrete (ok on grass I guess).
In fact, I'm not much of a fan of shadow maps either. Volumetric shadows, even with a proxy mesh, give a really good result, for what is effectively only a few thousand polys more.
i really dislike the fact that unity indie has no realtime shadows, its something thats so common nowadays that it should be included. i refuse to pay for a pro version when i can use UDK for free..
i will admit though that i love the simplicity of unity
You can't officially publish without paying for a license anyway, so why should they give you shadows? You cannot have your cake and eat it A Unity license is not going to break the bank if you plan to publish. UDK on the other hand...
Might not be up to date with UDK, but if you release something without the official UDK lisence, and it makes over $10k or something, then Epic takes a third of your money, you get the rest. Or if you want most of your money, you can lisence it for a game at well over $100,000 to $200,000.
It's a good idea I think; the punters can have a crack with little financial input at the start, and heck if it makes money you still get most of it (providing Autodesk doesn't crack down on you). And the bigger companies with million for their budget can pay the hundreds of thousands up front and never have to worry about Epic again.
but if you release something without the official UDK lisence, and it makes over $10k or something, then Epic takes a third of your money, you get the rest.
$10k is easily attainable. If thats on iOS you're then losing 60% of your revenue.
Also what does Autodesk have to do with it? BTW considering moving these posts to a new thread in Technical Talk - bit of a tangent.
$10k is easily attainable. If thats on iOS you're then losing 60% of your revenue.
Also what does Autodesk have to do with it? BTW considering moving these posts to a new thread in Technical Talk - bit of a tangent.
blatant assumption ahoy: You've made stuff for the game in Maya, Max or XSI!:poly142:
So while Epic won't ming just taking their share of the profits, Autodesk is probably already putting their jug of lube and glass shards in the freezer.
Go ahead and move it, this is some decent 'what if' talk here and I wouldn't mind knowing a few more things.
blatant assumption ahoy: You've made stuff for the game in Maya, Max or XSI!:poly142:
So while Epic won't ming just taking their share of the profits, Autodesk is probably already putting their jug of lube and glass shards in the freezer.
Go ahead and move it, this is some decent 'what if' talk here and I wouldn't mind knowing a few more things.
Pretty huge assumption there Brendan.
1. what game
2. I'm on cinema4d personally.
3. I think you might have me confused with someone else.
4. I think you might be confused in general.
5. gonna move these posts.
There are a tons of other engines out there if all you want are shadows + iOS ShiVa3D, and just released Maratis3D to name a couple of them.
I recommend against using cracked software to develop indie games. There are many cheaper and free software available to develop content with than Max, Maya, XSI, just saying.
1. what game
2. I'm on cinema4d personally.
3. I think you might have me confused with someone else.
4. I think you might be confused in general.
5. gonna move these posts.
Yep, told you it was pretty blatant.
But here's another one; overall (the majority, maybe even if not by much) the users here may just be happier using Max, Maya or Mudbox more than every other modeling/sculpting program combined.
I'm not saying that we all exclusively suckle off Autodesk's hairy man-boob, and I'm dead sure we've all tried and used Blender or some other free/cheap alternative. A lot of us even like parts or the whole program/s.
But there's still a very large (for individual users or even a team) financial jump between making stuff and making money legitimately for the Maya/Max/Unity/PS/etc users.
UDK is great, because the entry fee is nothing, they'll just take their share once you're already making money. If you can combine that with Gimp and Blender, then great; you're off to a free start and there's only one hole in your pocket that only appears after the $10,000 mark.
But for someone looking to make a game using Unity 3.2 (and it is bloody good), modeling their stuff in Maya 2011 (also bloody good) and making the textures in Photoshop (still bloody good), then you're paying up-front. That was my original point (not so good at wording something like this, sorry).
That with UDK, it's one less ticket you have to pay before you get your seat.
WISH SECTION:
If Autodesk would do the same. If I could legally sell my work freelance. And I could make money off that.
Maya costs what, $4000? If Autodesk would do the same thing as Epic...they wouldn't charge you a cent provided you didn't make more than $10,000. Then they'd take 50% from then on,or you could buy a lisence for $5,000 and they'd leave you alone to sell what you want and not take a cent.
EXACTLY like the UDK 'indie' licencing. Heck, I wish Unity would do the same thing. Instead of $1,5k up front, they take 25% of the pot after you hit $5,000.
Mix the numbers up, the costs and the percentages. But more programs with UDK's legal and lisencing is a win-win for everyone.
Unity indie license is free, so you could dev in Unity, + blender + gimp, and not have to pay a cent to anyone, ever. No royalty fee after $10 000 etc.
And if you're first game makes alot of money, or if you get donations through marketing, you can easily buy the Pro license, which is dirt cheap compared to most other apps.
As for Autodesk / adobe, if you're going to use those apps, you should buy them they are worth it.
Heck Autodesk if i'm not mistaken offers a free license to students and unemployed artists - there are threads about it right here on PC, not sure what the license agreement is, but they do offer something in the area you are suggesting.
You may wanna check out the 'xsi mod tool pro,' basically its the normal mod tool with better export options and allows commercial usage. Don't know how up to date it is or what the restrictions are though, best check the licensing options first.
If you're normal mapping you probably aren't making an indie game.
Unity + Blender + Gimp is a good free way to bash out iPhone games as mentioned above.
Unity Pro would remove the splash screen and give you lots of other options, it's well worth the $1.5k
Personally if I did release a popular iPhone game built in 3D, I wouldn't want anyone taking a cut. you're already paying 30% to Apple for the hosting, marketplace and distribution. An extra 30% on that would leave you with 40% of the profit.
$1.5k is loads cheaper than 30% Unreal mafia tax in the long run.
Wouldn´t 49% profit be more accurate? Because i think Epic calculates the charges by what you actually earn.
Correct me if i´m wrong, i don´t know much about that stuff.
yeah i agree
But its at least 1.5k, 1.5k is only for the standalon pro version which "only" works on pc/mac you'd have to buy android or iphone pro to get the same that udk offers - but still i think its worth the price.
You'l hate yourself using udk once you accidentely hit the weak spot of a lot of gamers and then have to pay tens of thousands instead of one time 1.5k or 3k.
Btw Udk is also not free for commercial use.
You can't officially publish without paying for a license anyway, so why should they give you shadows? You cannot have your cake and eat it A Unity license is not going to break the bank if you plan to publish. UDK on the other hand...
That's not true, unless did they change it?
In UDK, you can release and not worry about it until you make over 5k, and in unity it's not "unity free", it's "unity indie" and you can publish anything you make with it no problem. Think of a typical indie game. Notice there are no shadows and shadows wouldn't be expected in the typical "indie internet marketer game" (bejeweled does not need shadows, solitaire, etc - and these are typical indie games/web browser games)
Indie as in Independent Developer. Not as in "hobbyist not allowed to publish" - you're allowed to publish all you want, their hope is that you will buy the pro version after. If that's not true anymore, I'm shocked. I was already sorta disgusted by their business model before: http://supermortalhuman.com/unity-3-new-features
The only limit on Unity VS. Unity Pro is that you cannot earn more than $100,000 in one year, once you exceed that you'd have to purchase a Unity Pro and Unity iOS Pro license.
The $99 dollar fee is for Apple to "sign" your apps so that they will run on a iDevice and which you then can sell on the App Store, this is the same for Unity and UDK or any other engine for that matter.
At a minimum for iOS development with Unity you'd have to use Unity (Free) + Unity iOS ($400) + Apple signing fee ($99)
UDK on the other hand will be free up front except for the $99 fee then take 25% of any income past the first $5000.
In either case Apple's going to take 30% off the top of anything you make first.
I think you will also probably need at a minimum a working Intel based Mac Mini (or other Mac) to publish on, and a working iDevice of some sort to test your app with.
Personally if I had to decide between the two, I'd go with Unity. Easier to develop on and WAY cheaper in the long run.
Hey just tossing in my two cents. Blender has a game engine in itself just FYI. Also, you can get your hands on a pro Torque 3D license for $99 right now. GG got a buyer and they're back. The Indie license gives you a $250K revenue limit before you're required to buy a studio license, which, at that point, is very affordable.
If you're normal mapping you probably aren't making an indie game.
Unity + Blender + Gimp is a good free way to bash out iPhone games as mentioned above.
Unity Pro would remove the splash screen and give you lots of other options, it's well worth the $1.5k
Wait. Doesn't unity cost 300/$400 for basic iOS functionality? And then another $99/year for the app store subscription? And arguably some money for an iMac (I have a 100% windows PC here). I get your point though.
Aside from the money issue, I think Unity is getting a lot more effort and attention from the developers, and there's a bunch of third-party software (like the stuff commander keen is working on) and I'm thinking UDK is also less versatile. Basically, UDK is somewhat limited to high-tech shooter type games (extreme generalization here) while Unity is more geared to low-tech all-round games.
The only limit on Unity VS. Unity Pro is that you cannot earn more than $100,000 in one year, once you exceed that you'd have to purchase a Unity Pro and Unity iOS Pro license.
To be fair though, one unity pro license would be 1,5% of the income at that income, so it's pretty affordable (for fairly small teams)
Just to be clear that would be $3000 (Unity Pro + Unity iOS Pro) or 3% of your $100,000, with that percentage shrinking as your profits increase.
Though if you're pulling in $100,000 or more having developed with Unity and Unity iOS for $400 + $99 Apple fee then I'd say you're doing really awesome for an indie developer.
UDK on the other hand will be free up front except for the $99 fee then take 25% of any income past the first $5000.
yeah but what is 5000$? 5k?
if you are not thinking about making that with a game you worked on for even more money, come on thats about a month of payment maybe some more time worth of work, depending on where you live. And this is only for you! What about working together with a coder or gamedesigner, sounddesigner our composer for the music? what about animation? If you can handle them all, great.
Also 25% of 5000 is 1250 + 99 is 1349, thats pretty close to the 1500 of unity, but what happens if you make 10k or more? The deal gets worse with every dollar you earn. So what kind of business do you think of if you don't think you'll hit 5k anyways? :O
UDK is best (in terms of licencing) if you want to release a free iPhone program. In that circumstance, you only need to pay the standard $100 annual Apple developer fee.
Unity is best if you want to release an iPhone app for sale. You have to pay $400 for the iPhone version of Unity, the $100 annual Apple developer fee, and nothing else past that.
Anyone who is getting hung up on the Unity Pro angle in reference to the iPhone needs to get their priorities straight. The iPhone has much lower expectations in terms of graphics. And its lesser performance should be encouraging you NOT to pursue more advanced rendering techniques. If you are hung up about real-time lighting in an iPhone game, you need to get over yourself. It's not THAT important, and no one is going to mind some blob shadows in an iPhone title.
Of course, there is now Maratis3D for those who don't want to spend anything on their engine. If you are willing to go 2D there is the Sparrow Framework. And then of course there's always just basic coding as well.
What a lot of people dont realize is that UDK isnt really a game engine. Its UT3's modding tools without ut3 and a changed license. Unreal Engine was never designed for public use and has minimal access for modding, so using UDK for anything other than an FPS with common game mechanics is very difficult or impossible.
Unity (as well as almost all other engines targeted for public use) was designed to allow anyone to access and change any part of the engine and extend the engine and tools as needed.
As far as licensing goes no matter which one you use you dont have to pay anything to get your game running. If your game relies heavily on gpu processing using Render Textures then you will need Unity Pro, and chances are what you are trying to achieve wont be possible in UDK, unless its already implemented.
Actually you can't do realtime shadows on the iPhone with Unity just yet so as Richard says, theres very little need for the Pro license at all.
One thing I notice is that a lot of Unity built iPhone titles are trying really hard to mask the fact that they run in Unity to avoid any attention from "the taxman". If you go on to any of the developers facebook fan pages or forums and start talking Unity, they delete your posts immediately.
I guess this will be the case with UDK too. Although, it's kinda easy to tell what engine most of these titles are built in for developers.
And yes, the Apple $100 license is yearly, I just got my invoice for renewal. (and on the current exchange rate it's costing me $132... bah) - if you don't renew, you can can't continue to sell.
Replies
It's still a Pro v Indie thing, even on 3.2.
However, you can dodge it with some scripts; rotating a blob shadow around by locking the projector's angle to that of the light source, or you can use volumetric shadows.
i will admit though that i love the simplicity of unity
Personally I'm not a fan of their Pro shadows anyway. The hi-res hard shadows still don't stand up to close inspection and the soft shadows look like a blurry low-res shadow. Especially on a surface such as a racetrack or concrete (ok on grass I guess).
In fact, I'm not much of a fan of shadow maps either. Volumetric shadows, even with a proxy mesh, give a really good result, for what is effectively only a few thousand polys more.
You can't officially publish without paying for a license anyway, so why should they give you shadows? You cannot have your cake and eat it
Might not be up to date with UDK, but if you release something without the official UDK lisence, and it makes over $10k or something, then Epic takes a third of your money, you get the rest. Or if you want most of your money, you can lisence it for a game at well over $100,000 to $200,000.
It's a good idea I think; the punters can have a crack with little financial input at the start, and heck if it makes money you still get most of it (providing Autodesk doesn't crack down on you). And the bigger companies with million for their budget can pay the hundreds of thousands up front and never have to worry about Epic again.
$10k is easily attainable. If thats on iOS you're then losing 60% of your revenue.
Also what does Autodesk have to do with it? BTW considering moving these posts to a new thread in Technical Talk - bit of a tangent.
blatant assumption ahoy: You've made stuff for the game in Maya, Max or XSI!:poly142:
So while Epic won't ming just taking their share of the profits, Autodesk is probably already putting their jug of lube and glass shards in the freezer.
Go ahead and move it, this is some decent 'what if' talk here and I wouldn't mind knowing a few more things.
Pretty huge assumption there Brendan.
1. what game
2. I'm on cinema4d personally.
3. I think you might have me confused with someone else.
4. I think you might be confused in general.
5. gonna move these posts.
I recommend against using cracked software to develop indie games. There are many cheaper and free software available to develop content with than Max, Maya, XSI, just saying.
Yep, told you it was pretty blatant.
But here's another one; overall (the majority, maybe even if not by much) the users here may just be happier using Max, Maya or Mudbox more than every other modeling/sculpting program combined.
I'm not saying that we all exclusively suckle off Autodesk's hairy man-boob, and I'm dead sure we've all tried and used Blender or some other free/cheap alternative. A lot of us even like parts or the whole program/s.
But there's still a very large (for individual users or even a team) financial jump between making stuff and making money legitimately for the Maya/Max/Unity/PS/etc users.
UDK is great, because the entry fee is nothing, they'll just take their share once you're already making money. If you can combine that with Gimp and Blender, then great; you're off to a free start and there's only one hole in your pocket that only appears after the $10,000 mark.
But for someone looking to make a game using Unity 3.2 (and it is bloody good), modeling their stuff in Maya 2011 (also bloody good) and making the textures in Photoshop (still bloody good), then you're paying up-front. That was my original point (not so good at wording something like this, sorry).
That with UDK, it's one less ticket you have to pay before you get your seat.
WISH SECTION:
If Autodesk would do the same. If I could legally sell my work freelance. And I could make money off that.
Maya costs what, $4000? If Autodesk would do the same thing as Epic...they wouldn't charge you a cent provided you didn't make more than $10,000. Then they'd take 50% from then on,or you could buy a lisence for $5,000 and they'd leave you alone to sell what you want and not take a cent.
EXACTLY like the UDK 'indie' licencing. Heck, I wish Unity would do the same thing. Instead of $1,5k up front, they take 25% of the pot after you hit $5,000.
Mix the numbers up, the costs and the percentages. But more programs with UDK's legal and lisencing is a win-win for everyone.
And if you're first game makes alot of money, or if you get donations through marketing, you can easily buy the Pro license, which is dirt cheap compared to most other apps.
As for Autodesk / adobe, if you're going to use those apps, you should buy them they are worth it.
Heck Autodesk if i'm not mistaken offers a free license to students and unemployed artists - there are threads about it right here on PC, not sure what the license agreement is, but they do offer something in the area you are suggesting.
Unity + Blender + Gimp is a good free way to bash out iPhone games as mentioned above.
Unity Pro would remove the splash screen and give you lots of other options, it's well worth the $1.5k
Personally if I did release a popular iPhone game built in 3D, I wouldn't want anyone taking a cut. you're already paying 30% to Apple for the hosting, marketplace and distribution. An extra 30% on that would leave you with 40% of the profit.
$1.5k is loads cheaper than 30% Unreal mafia tax in the long run.
Correct me if i´m wrong, i don´t know much about that stuff.
But its at least 1.5k, 1.5k is only for the standalon pro version which "only" works on pc/mac you'd have to buy android or iphone pro to get the same that udk offers - but still i think its worth the price.
You'l hate yourself using udk once you accidentely hit the weak spot of a lot of gamers and then have to pay tens of thousands instead of one time 1.5k or 3k.
Btw Udk is also not free for commercial use.
That's not true, unless did they change it?
In UDK, you can release and not worry about it until you make over 5k, and in unity it's not "unity free", it's "unity indie" and you can publish anything you make with it no problem. Think of a typical indie game. Notice there are no shadows and shadows wouldn't be expected in the typical "indie internet marketer game" (bejeweled does not need shadows, solitaire, etc - and these are typical indie games/web browser games)
Indie as in Independent Developer. Not as in "hobbyist not allowed to publish" - you're allowed to publish all you want, their hope is that you will buy the pro version after. If that's not true anymore, I'm shocked. I was already sorta disgusted by their business model before: http://supermortalhuman.com/unity-3-new-features
http://unity3d.com/unity/licenses
The $99 dollar fee is for Apple to "sign" your apps so that they will run on a iDevice and which you then can sell on the App Store, this is the same for Unity and UDK or any other engine for that matter.
At a minimum for iOS development with Unity you'd have to use Unity (Free) + Unity iOS ($400) + Apple signing fee ($99)
UDK on the other hand will be free up front except for the $99 fee then take 25% of any income past the first $5000.
In either case Apple's going to take 30% off the top of anything you make first.
I think you will also probably need at a minimum a working Intel based Mac Mini (or other Mac) to publish on, and a working iDevice of some sort to test your app with.
Personally if I had to decide between the two, I'd go with Unity. Easier to develop on and WAY cheaper in the long run.
Wait. Doesn't unity cost 300/$400 for basic iOS functionality? And then another $99/year for the app store subscription? And arguably some money for an iMac (I have a 100% windows PC here). I get your point though.
Aside from the money issue, I think Unity is getting a lot more effort and attention from the developers, and there's a bunch of third-party software (like the stuff commander keen is working on) and I'm thinking UDK is also less versatile. Basically, UDK is somewhat limited to high-tech shooter type games (extreme generalization here) while Unity is more geared to low-tech all-round games.
To be fair though, one unity pro license would be 1,5% of the income at that income, so it's pretty affordable (for fairly small teams)
Though if you're pulling in $100,000 or more having developed with Unity and Unity iOS for $400 + $99 Apple fee then I'd say you're doing really awesome for an indie developer.
yeah but what is 5000$? 5k?
if you are not thinking about making that with a game you worked on for even more money, come on thats about a month of payment maybe some more time worth of work, depending on where you live. And this is only for you! What about working together with a coder or gamedesigner, sounddesigner our composer for the music? what about animation? If you can handle them all, great.
Also 25% of 5000 is 1250 + 99 is 1349, thats pretty close to the 1500 of unity, but what happens if you make 10k or more? The deal gets worse with every dollar you earn. So what kind of business do you think of if you don't think you'll hit 5k anyways? :O
This is why I'd never use UDK for indie development, it works great for portfolio pieces though.
They count the $5000 as the total earnings of your company, which means: every game made in udk and services related to the game you made.
So it's not per game.
Unity is best if you want to release an iPhone app for sale. You have to pay $400 for the iPhone version of Unity, the $100 annual Apple developer fee, and nothing else past that.
Anyone who is getting hung up on the Unity Pro angle in reference to the iPhone needs to get their priorities straight. The iPhone has much lower expectations in terms of graphics. And its lesser performance should be encouraging you NOT to pursue more advanced rendering techniques. If you are hung up about real-time lighting in an iPhone game, you need to get over yourself. It's not THAT important, and no one is going to mind some blob shadows in an iPhone title.
Of course, there is now Maratis3D for those who don't want to spend anything on their engine. If you are willing to go 2D there is the Sparrow Framework. And then of course there's always just basic coding as well.
Unity (as well as almost all other engines targeted for public use) was designed to allow anyone to access and change any part of the engine and extend the engine and tools as needed.
As far as licensing goes no matter which one you use you dont have to pay anything to get your game running. If your game relies heavily on gpu processing using Render Textures then you will need Unity Pro, and chances are what you are trying to achieve wont be possible in UDK, unless its already implemented.
One thing I notice is that a lot of Unity built iPhone titles are trying really hard to mask the fact that they run in Unity to avoid any attention from "the taxman". If you go on to any of the developers facebook fan pages or forums and start talking Unity, they delete your posts immediately.
I guess this will be the case with UDK too. Although, it's kinda easy to tell what engine most of these titles are built in for developers.
And yes, the Apple $100 license is yearly, I just got my invoice for renewal. (and on the current exchange rate it's costing me $132... bah) - if you don't renew, you can can't continue to sell.