really cool explanation about piracy
polycounter lvl 11
I don't know if you guys have seen this but I find this a very good video explaining piracy and some issues with it.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2653-Piracy
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2653-Piracy
Replies
~ This.
Plus, I read 'piracy' and saw zero Somali pirates in that video. Disappointed does not begin to sum me up right now.
I think it's because the general public never understands those things, since they see it as a "the company doesn't lose anything, since I wouldn't have bought it anyway".
It was a diplomatic anti-piracy video.
I'll just add these two little cartoons:
"IP law is one caveman beating up the rest of the cavemen for using his idea of fire"
And you're on a forum full of people who make their living from non-tangible products.
QFT
sad to say but I have extremely good friends, some in the industry or 3d related industry who still pirate movies and games. even then they still fall back on the "its only 60 bucks, im sure this company wont miss out on 50 bucks when they are making a few million" makes me want to stab them in the face.
Also for your stupid little piracy picture that doesn't address the fact that piracy is still a crime. Yes piracy you are making a "copy" of the original and that original is still there but you are still STEALING it. You did not pay for what you are pirating, nor did you get consent to take it.
"To take the property of another wrongfully" is the definition of stealing. No matter how you try and sugar coat it you are taking the property of another wrongfully. And thats a crime. Grow up.
It's harmless in the sense that there are other ways to make money from art. The fact of the matter is, that the way the business is done today is only functional because there is a law that makes such a business model partly valid. It requires that those that create and publish art are the only ones with the power to disseminate their works to the public. With those two pillars in place, selling copies works. But thanks to the internet, the underlying flaw, cracks if you will, in this system has been exposed to the public. Now, every person with an internet connection can be a distributor which eventually breaks and topples the pillar. So the only pillar still supporting it is copyright.
Now what they try to do, instead of finding a better way to do business, is to shore up the lost support from the crumbled distribution pillar by adding strength to the copyright pillar. What good is adding strength to a pillar that can never support that way of business no matter how strong it is? Even if you try to "balance" it, it's still likely to topple if shaken enough.
To say that file-sharing a game circumvents the developers' ability to earn a living means that you didn't take the time to consider other ways to monetize the consumption of that game. There are things you can sell that are closely tied to your game that people will pay for. Would it be right to give protection to horse carriage makers because automobiles are making it harder to earn a living? No, because they aren't really in the carriage business. They are in the transportation business and Ford just found a better way to do it. Just as entertainment isn't a manufacturing industry, but a service industry. I think the video got it wrong, the file-sharers are not your competition, they're your distributors and marketing team.
Now I've gone on far too long and I'm very tired. I hope this makes sense. Art is free, work is not.
Can you explain how it isn't?
Just because something is virtual doesn't mean it is not stealing.
That being said, I quite enjoyed the video!! I just like when someone tries to take all sides, and try to make people aware, without stepping on so many toes... And thank you, THANK YOU to them for bringing up the ever-present "I wouldn't have bought it anyway!" excuse.
Oh, and proving the arguement about "I'm too poor" doesn't fly.
Now, back to beating the dead horse!
Yea, it's something a bit different but equally bad.
QFT
That or I'll just keep a log of who is my customer, and give them way more benefits and post-launch content.
Power to the consumer! I made a product, not art.
Whoa... no way?!? I thought that I work in the trucking industry. I guess this last paycheck I got from a video-game company must have been delivered to me by mistake.
Well, keep up the "information wants to be free" stuff and it might very well end up your last in the ideal pirate future :P
Man, I can't believe I'm about to enter this debate again...
But let me ask you, cause I'm genuinely curious. Do you honestly think that I believe that piracy will kill the industry, is harmful to it, or what have you, knowing that it will take my job away and shut down my studio, and yet I still "support" piracy? (which I don't btw, I just don't think it's a crime)
What I'm getting at is, that maybe you believe that piracy is all those things, but I don't. At least give me the benefit of the doubt by not assuming that I support something that I know will hurt me. Pretty please. With sugar on top?
I think that's the point though BigJohn, is that many don't see it as a crime, thus they continue to do it and other follow in their footsteps.
I think most pirates don't think at all when pirating. They want a game, NOW!, and for FREE!. All these lofty explanations of why only go through their head when somebody asks them directly in their face why they pirate, because it's just much less embarrassing when you pretend you acted because of a proper reason or on a principle rather than just being selfish.
imagine stealing apple from 7 11 , and you just fine. no guilt.
I remember this happened the institution level, where my teacher's book got pirated by his own publisher. he never receive anything even after he past away. since 2002 the law has been drastically change. but its too late ...
brb scanning my dollar and print it,
see how I can get away with law* - j/k
Agree. This is mostly for what I was going for by posting it. Just making some people aware and if possible make some people change their minds about it and start paying for their form of entertainment.
No shit? I think winning money and getting a blowjob are equally as good, it doesn't mean I'll use the terms interchangeably.
The logic of calling piracy stealing is just as misguided as the numerous excuses pirates use.
Sure.
But then the point remains that just because something is illegal, it doesn't make it immoral, and vice versa.
And who gets to make the call as to what's the absolute objective moral point? Especially in a case like this where there's a wide disagreement, not in murder where everyone and their mothers know it's wrong.
Wide disagreement? You're in fact the only person I've ever met that feels there is nothing wrong with the act. And I've had this discussion across many, many different forums. For argument's sake, there are plenty of scenarios where I could justify cold blooded murder.
I never said that.
And no, there isn't a single situation in which a cold-blooded murder is justified. Self-defense, or the defense of others don't count, as they're not cold-blooded.
lol, good one...
It's not in cold blood! The guy murdered people infront of me. He's a murderer. Cold blood would mean without any justification. Murder would mean with premeditation. This is neither. That "case" is well within the realm of self-defense and/or defense of others.
And how you got to murder from intellectual property is beyond me.
Any premeditated murder would be categorized as cold blooded, especially if you could just as easily turn the murderer into the cops before you decided to take the law into your own hands.
Not gonna disagree with you on that. They always say justice is blind, I disagree with that, I think that justice is just cold.
That was your original point btw. Mine was that just because something is illegal, that doesn't make immoral.
Right on. To each their own I say. Agree to disagree, etc etc...
reminds me when I got the EU version of a game I worked on from my employer. It had safedisc or whatever DRM thing it was that caused the whole rootkit craze... funnily enough, the US version didn't have that
As long as everyone else who worked on it got their beer.
I know this might hurt a little if you're working at any of the studios I'm gonna mention, but here it goes:
Piracy can also be used as a statement towards the publisher/developer about the quality of the game. Now, I usually buy my games unless they aren't avaible or have some redicolous DRM that would otherwise affect my gaming(my net isnt the most stable, and after buying Assassin's Creed 2 legaly and getting interrupted constantly, I've decided never to support ubisoft until they remove this insane protection crap), but you I can't help noticing the decline of quality and stabillity (pc) games have now a days.
Now, as an example I will start out with Mass Effect 2. Now, while I love the series and still have bought both Mass Effect 1 and 2 legally, I can't shake off the feeling of this game is another shitty console port that hasn't been given a proper quality control for the PC release. The control's a dumbed down, as are the abillity to change them, I've encountered several bugs through my campaign experience that forced me to either load from a earlier saved game or play the chapter through again. Sure there will be bugs, no game can be bug free from the start, but I really expected more from a AAA title such as Mass Effect.
We can also go further down the road and bring up GTA: IV, ohhh yeah..... So, I played the game originally on my 360 and loved it, it actually played smooth and the bugs were minor, but then along came the PC release. So while I already had bought the game for my 360, I visited a friend who just bought the PC version, and god, what the hell was Rockstar smoking when they released that. The game had so many bugs and performance issues that you almost felt like you're part of the QA team instead of a costumer.
As stated above, I could actually find self-justification of downloading theese game ilegally because I want the publisher and developer to know that I won't just accept them throwing more and more crap down my throat. As far as I'm concerned, the quality of games is following the same decline of quality in movies. It's simply more profitable spewing out shit with great marketing, then spending a year or two more perfecting the game.
As for developers who whine about their game getting pirated and how it's ruining the industry, get a grip. Instead of totally denying any involvment in why your game is getting pirated, try and find out why people won't buy it from the stores or online. Of course there will be a big percentage of people downloading it because they're dicks, but you might also find that some of them won't buy it because the ratings are piss poor or the game is bugged beyond imagination(I'm looking at you GTA:IV for the PC). It's funny how you never hear Valve or Blizzard Entertainment bitch about piracy(Yeah okay, they're mostly releasing multiplayer games which a great DRM in it self) because they actually have a loyal fan base that knows that Valve and Blizzard actually take time to do proper QA.
That's my 2 cents.
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/01/21/no-anime-for-foreigners-until-you-wipe-out-fansubs/
- I find the whole reaction to be such an over the top kneejerk thing to do and theyre practically shooting themselves in the foot by doing it. I'm someone who follows anime like crazy and I wasn't really aware of the fact it was being released legitimately so didn't end up watching the stream. For someone who ends up watching and following as much as me not to know about it is because of how the system has been.
i.e. Why would i check official sites? I can get that information from elsewhere to find out which group fansubs it, and torrent trackers are an easy way to find out whats out on what days. My point is that for the longest time people who wanted to watch anime in a timely fashion have had no real choice but to pirate it, and for them to expect it to come to an end just because theyre finally starting to stream and simulcast is beyond stupid.
Surely denying us the stream we do want is only putting us back to square one, with piracy being the only option? I just dont fucking understand - Surely it would be better to do the reverse and market it really well so the need for piracy/fansubs is lessened? Fansubbers work hard/release things fast for no gain, they deal with trolls/drama and other shit all for what? kudos in an anime circle... i dont see where theyd get their motivation to continue subbing if it was available for free via youtube or w/e
That being said though, anime dvd rips are another story alltogether, and there are anime trackers that remove licensed series / stop subbing when things get licensed.
I dont know if any comparisons can really be drawn between this and games, its just an interesting thing relating to piracy.
It's a bit more complex. On the first glance it sounds okay-ish to pirate your own game. However in many cases you're not "stealing" (or however you want to call it) from your own company, but from your company's publisher, which can be different company altogether, which then can claim damages....
Lets say in a hypothetical future where information were to become free, and there were no such thing as IP laws any-more, could you even legally sell your game?, since you'd be lying if you were telling people that was the only way to get your game, and you couldn't stop people from posting "don't pay for the game, get it this way instead" in your forum." without causing a shit-storm.
And lets say your game-company took a route of donations instead, since that's one of the few things to make a revenue in that future. In the best case that would make it possible to support a team of a few people, barely an artist.
We wouldn't have companies of the same sizes we have in a corporate IP-protected world as we do now, and we wouldn't have the same amount of jobs, would you say this to be false?
There's more to selling art than just selling copies or taking donations. If people don't think it's worth the money to buy the game, sell them something they will pay for using the game as a reason to buy it. And for the fans/customer/whathaveyou want to give more, then offer them something more in return.
For example:
For those that contribute large sums, offer a "host your own release party" option where large contributors get a pre-release party hosted by your studio. Everybody would get personally autographed editions of the game and other little extra perks you could tack on for cheap or free (free to you, not the fans).
You could sell "support" badges for the players' game account. It will display on their profile and give them special privileges that non-paying fans won't get. The more badges they buy, the more benefits/recognition they get.
Sell printed art books containing concept and production art from the creation of the game. I bought the Half-Life 2 art book and I love it. Sell strategy guides.
Sell 3D prints of game assets.
If your game has a mod tool packed with it, sell training on how to use your mod tool.
Last, but not least, treat them like they are very important to your business (because they are).
Also, not quite sure what Turbosmooth of BigJohn are trying to get at.
But with their points aside, I really don't see what the confusion is.
Legally: Piracy is usually the circumvention of technology that controls access to copyrighted materials whether physical or digital, etc. Simple enough, it's against the law.
Morally: Well, I like analogies, so here it goes.
Imagine people who have the ability to sell emotions in a box. They advertise the gist of what they've concocted, and it's up to you to buy the one that interests you.
But wait, what's this? Technology allows people to create copies of those products, meaning that they can obtain the product without subtracting from the sellers inventory.
However, the outcome is that the people will have no dinner tonight because they couldn't sell enough to earn back the investment spent in making those emotions in boxes.
Exaggerated yes I know, but the fundamental logic is there, no matter the reason people have for pirating a game that they realistically could have afforded, they could have just been that much more patient in saving to buy it. If people can't afford it, well, thats one less luxury in life I'm afraid, and there are plenty of others who would do without much more.
As stated, there's already plenty out there that is free. As well as those that are out of print or simply impossible to find, but how often are we really faced with those situations?
http://www.kongregate.com/
http://www.gog.com/en/frontpage/
That still isn't enough to fund large scale gamedev operations.
Art books can more often be downloaded, and printing your own books in the future will only become easier than ordering a copy.
Same with 3d prints, what makes you expect that people will want to buy 3d prints if you could (in the future) just use your home 3d printer and print that stuff yourself.
Selling education on your modding tools is pretty cool, but you wouldn't have the budget to hire educators anyway, since you never had any initial revenue of that size.
I agree with the treating contributors and donators as an important part to the bussiness though.
In the same way that you said software developers have to change their way of getting revenue, the same way they'd have to restructure to company to handle this new kind of bussiness world.
Actually scrap that, in the future without copyrights developers would move to services like ONLIVE.
I think you're falling for the false logic that one has to sell copies of what they create to make money. The problem being, that if people can get it by other means, it's not an effective strategy. So you should try selling what can't be copied. Your time, effort, and skill is not easily copied. Sell that. Get people to pay you to create rather than pay you for what you created. The former you have 100% control over as no one can make you create. Whereas the latter you have no real control over because, despite copyright law, people can still get your work if they care to try.
Which statement sounds better:
"You want me to make a game? Pay me and I'll make it."
or
"I made a game, buy a copy."
One implies that there is demand for the creation of a game, where the other does not. The first statement says "I don't work for free" and the other says "I do work for free".
If developers don't make money on a game to make more games, they stop making games. Pirate all you want, but don't complain when all you have left are console games that all play the same, take no risks, and are developed by one of three giant companies.
Ok, you're making the assumption that there needs to be a magic bullet strategy that will solve the issue forever. That's not how I'm looking at it. I'm looking at the situation as it is right now and suggesting options that can be competitive. The strategy is to be able to change when the market changes.
So people might one day have 3D printers at their convenience (I think it's unlikely). So, if that day comes, find another scarce good to sell. Not only that, but you want to have high resolution meshes for the 3D prints and you don't have to distribute those at all. Keep them to yourself.
Art books require high resolution images for a good print and screen quality images are far too low res. Good print quality images can be anywhere from 1GB to 10GB and when you compile a collection of 100 images or more, you're talking serious file sizes that even bitorrent would have difficulty dealing with as it stands today.
You can offer any or all of these options and any others you can think of, but don't assume that you can just make a strategy and then rest on your laurels. Be ready to adapt, always. Just like the buggy makers had to adapt when Henry Ford rolled out his Model T, so do we have to adapt to the file-sharing world's economics.