The 2D guy learning 3D
polycounter lvl 7
EDIT: I've made some new strides. Check out page 3 for recent stuff!
Currently working on face topology + little fun diversion of World War Knight
Currently working on:
----OLD
Come, come join me as I struggle immensely as I try and learn how to model
As a 2D artist it's always fascinated me how take shape and form from paper into the digital 3d realm. I've worked on several mods (died out of course) and just seeing the process has always blown my mind;however, it saddens me too that I can't take my own creation from paper and help deliver it to the final stage (not to mention make adjustments here and there that I wished I made on the concept art).
I'm also interested in expanding my knowledge in drawing and I figured training my brain to understand 3d form will surely help* (probably the main reason why I want to learn 3d, clay gets really messy, though I will dabble with that at uni)
So peruse my struggle and if you're a kind soul do throw your two cents as I have no idea what I am doing.
I chose softimage XSI to work with, and downloaded the student version.
-The Dreadful First-
Right, first model, the box man. A similar practice in traditional art that I picked up on looking at work done by Luca Cambiaoso. A good practice in drawing as it helps with perspective and a good basic shape that can be expanded upon on the human body such as the thorax, the forearm (most notably where the radius juts out) and so on and what not and here is an example of Cambioso.
And here is my awful first that I was relatively happy with (considering it took me hours to figure out how to extrude)
And then I thought it would be neat to smooth it out, and this abomination came forward.
What went wrong? I'm guessing when I mirrored it and just welding points to target (it seemed logical to me)
Lesson learnt:
-Welding points to target = stitched zombie.
After this experience was out of the way I sat back down and tried to figuring out what course of action to take, I learnt a lot from the masters when I drew so in that respect I headed over to the SDK thread downloaded a few and now I'm trying to recreate them. In a sense a master-copy.
But I'm blown away at how amazing it is to simply mold a form, extrude it and mold it again to form a base of something (be it recognizable or not) I'm amazed...Wow! It's so darn neat, I'm super pumped to start on my next one.
Cheers!
PS: I'm learning functions as I go, but if there is something gratifying that I need to try out do tell
Currently working on face topology + little fun diversion of World War Knight
Currently working on:
----OLD
Come, come join me as I struggle immensely as I try and learn how to model
As a 2D artist it's always fascinated me how take shape and form from paper into the digital 3d realm. I've worked on several mods (died out of course) and just seeing the process has always blown my mind;however, it saddens me too that I can't take my own creation from paper and help deliver it to the final stage (not to mention make adjustments here and there that I wished I made on the concept art).
I'm also interested in expanding my knowledge in drawing and I figured training my brain to understand 3d form will surely help* (probably the main reason why I want to learn 3d, clay gets really messy, though I will dabble with that at uni)
So peruse my struggle and if you're a kind soul do throw your two cents as I have no idea what I am doing.
I chose softimage XSI to work with, and downloaded the student version.
-The Dreadful First-
Right, first model, the box man. A similar practice in traditional art that I picked up on looking at work done by Luca Cambiaoso. A good practice in drawing as it helps with perspective and a good basic shape that can be expanded upon on the human body such as the thorax, the forearm (most notably where the radius juts out) and so on and what not and here is an example of Cambioso.
And here is my awful first that I was relatively happy with (considering it took me hours to figure out how to extrude)
And then I thought it would be neat to smooth it out, and this abomination came forward.
What went wrong? I'm guessing when I mirrored it and just welding points to target (it seemed logical to me)
Lesson learnt:
-Welding points to target = stitched zombie.
After this experience was out of the way I sat back down and tried to figuring out what course of action to take, I learnt a lot from the masters when I drew so in that respect I headed over to the SDK thread downloaded a few and now I'm trying to recreate them. In a sense a master-copy.
But I'm blown away at how amazing it is to simply mold a form, extrude it and mold it again to form a base of something (be it recognizable or not) I'm amazed...Wow! It's so darn neat, I'm super pumped to start on my next one.
Cheers!
PS: I'm learning functions as I go, but if there is something gratifying that I need to try out do tell
Replies
I will say a few things though.. like, good luck! It's definitely intimidating to jump into 3 dimensions, but once you get more used to the tools, you'll find a strong traditional background helps a lot.
Also, it's fun to see models smoothed out, but I wouldn't worry too much about getting good looking smooth models this early in the game - work on blocking out forms and simple shapes first. (your model's pretty decent for a first attempt, just keep at it.)
Also, check out the polycount wiki for tons of great info/tutorials and some inspiration: http://wiki.polycount.com/Polycount
So learning 3d poses some problems since I'm used to illustrating depth (rather faking it as they are tool of the trade) rather than trying to physically move it in space.
In that respect I have to draw things out to make sense of it in my own brain. Sort of pre-planning in where I throw the edges. I'm glad to see that my anatomy knowledge hasn't gone in vain and I find myself flipping through my anatomy books for reference on where the edge goes (hah new terminology too)
Here I was trying to figure out how to define certain features on the human face.
And here is where the face stands at the moment
I read a few tutorials and started shaping something out using a basic cube. It was interested at first drawing the edges in where the socket is, the nose, actually having to draw in under the nose (as I figured I'd have to move the dot on the profile view to make it appear underneath) Great fun, and then th depth comes in where I have to figure out in space where each point goes to and what looks right.
It was hard at first, but I'm slowly understanding it and I'm starting to make careful decisions.
Anyhow, this is really cool stuff and i'm glad I started and had enough patience to get through my first model and learn some of the basic tools to start creating something. I find it really fun
Im about to pick up XSI aswell so I'll be monitoring that thread closely
Good luck!
You need to delete those so it's a 'hollow shell'. Then weld the 2 halves.
The renderer is trying to smooth all the way around each half AND around both halves together. (plus it's a waste of unseen polys, etc...)
Looks like you're getting a decent start though.
Just like anything else that is new, 3d is intimidating and frustrating, but youll get used to it when the time and effort is put in. Although, I too am new at 3d.
what realy helped me was Eat3d.com they have some usefull tutorials, exept you have to pay for them.
Baddcog: Thank you, thank you, thank you, haha that was a big mistake, but lesson learned now
RJBonner: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely look into that once I delve deeper into the mechanic of things, I just want to frustrate myself into figuring things out as I learn faster that way. *bro hug*
bbob: Awesome! Thanks for the link, I have it bookmarked now and will watch the remainder of it later this week, always great to know the importance of things.
Right so, I booted up XSI early this morning and modeled another body (trying to bring in the suggestions and what I soaked in yesterday)
And using the geometry approximation (going to read more on that since my friend pointed that out when I showed him the "smoothed" model, he suggested to achieve the same achievement is used via the subdivision refinement.
Found in the modify>poly mesh> Local Subdivision refinement. There where two selections or modes, one catmull-clarke and the other Doo-Sabin. By flipping back and forth one seems to create a more slender figure while the other a more voluptuousness figure (doo-sabin) (by the way these are all technical terms and definitions of those two modes, just saying)
I'll read up more on what there actual functions are.
And I just want to do a shout out to stoopdapoop for being patient with me and helping me figure things out.
Cheers!
EDIT: Hands are quite the killer, I'll have to do a study of them soon. UGH
Here's the concept I drew up:
and I was well underway until the program crashed and I lost quite a bit of work, but I'm back at it and it's all saved up.
I'll post some shots once I have something that people can critique on.
Cheers!
Anyway, to comment on your 3d progress so far, I'm not suggesting you to subdivided the mesh yet, I can see on the female stomach has a hard edge going on there (which I don't think that's what you want). First of all try to get the topology correct by making a smooth flow on the polygons (no pinching/ stretching polys). Sometimes subdivided mesh only hide the geometry error and if you go further in the project without fixing it I'm afraid the error will accumulated and when you realize it's kinda too late to fix. If you get a smooth topology from the start, whenever you want to subdivide your model it'll gonna looks good.
Good luck!
From a 3d guy learning 2d heheh,
_Revel
I just want to expand my arsenal of tools to work with when creating art. At times when I'm painting I simply can't thinking of certain depth or angles and composing things in this 3d space gives me an opportunity to see things from different angles before I paint something. I recently started using photoshop to prep things for my paintings in oil.
Thanks for your comment, I'm still struggling on how to go about forming things neatly, I opened up a few SDK's here to study and I'm still scratching my head how even and neatly spaced out some of the polys are and keep wondering if I'm missing out on something or I just haven't got it yet; never the less after watching the videos that bbob linked I've been cleaning up some meshes trying to avoid ngons and triangles (Though I'm stuck on that one since people have conflicting thoughts about the tri)
I'll definitely study more topology flow as I am getting hard edges in places I don't want them.
Cheers for the comment, still cracking hard on this welder fellow.
I paid careful attention with the topology and I learnt a lot on how edges can dramatically change the overall shape of the object. It's really fascinating how the smallest things can make such a big impact, of course there is a lot more work to be done as, including evening everything out for a nice flow.
I'm still having a riot with this whole new dimension, super fun!
I personally love listening to an array of music (as it calms my frustration hah) I've been listening to a lot of classical music, thought I might share a current piece I was/am listening to while modelling.
[ame="
Edit:
I'm having trouble trying to figure out how to add the arm, I left a quad there and was planning to extrude it out and work it out from there. I'm curious if there is any other methods that I can look into (always keen to see other solutions to problems)
Yes, looking at the SDK model will give you some idea of how the possible polygon flow but that's not the only way to do topology. To keep the topology clean basically to know the anatomy and muscle structure of the real human, where to deform/ bone extruded out and such, which I think you're quite familiar with those stuff.
Tris is not as bad as it reputation among 3d artist (lol poor tris..), it is acceptable in some place, but try to avoid it in the deformation area cus it cause pinching later on. Or if you want to take it to sculpting apps like ZBrush.
Totally agree with you, if you can handle both 2d and 3d, it'll be so much benefits to your work. Probably you can create a scene of combination of the 2 skill like matte painting in the real world but you create a 3d character in a painted world, who knows right?
//Side note;
Owh almost forgot! one thing that you should keep in mind the different between working in 2d canvas like photoshop and 3d package like XSI, 3d is more likely to CRASHED on the worst time possible compare to 2d, so save your work often!
//EDIT:
Hei Allan, I think I spot your mistake in making the geometry (sorry if I'm wrong), it looks like that you divide your mesh too much at the earlier stage. What I do usually is stay low res as long as possible, which mean that get the basic proportion right first then only go to detail. The less verts you working with the less problem that it will create.
//EDIT 2:
Quick paint over to show you what I mean by less verts less trouble
So as you can see I'm suing less verts to form the silhouette of the leg easier because less point to control. Hope that helps!
_Revel
Probably my form isn't all that clear at that stage (should of thrown in the blocky arm), but what you thought was a leg is actually the whole form
I usually start with the boxman approach (similar to the first model I did) and slowly add more edges for refinement. It is a good practice though what you posted on starting with big shapes and then slowly going in and refine.
Actually I'm wondering why you make the feet so small compare to the whole leg before, now I see why, because it's the whole body! silly me haha..
So, your topology for the arm is not all wrong
From the pic you can see that I've change the flow around the shoulder a bit to form the edge loops, its really helpful for deformation the mesh later on. Pay attention to the neck, shoulder, pelvis area there should be an edge loops around there to make a better topology.
_Revel
Virtuosic: Doing my best
gilesruscoe: Cheers!
tda: Aye, hah I'm slowly realizing they aren't all that different, it's just a little more time consuming with 3d as the adding new dimension poses a little more problems, but I can see how someone who has a fair understanding of the basics of modeling, the program and a little bit of the technical side can create fantastic things.
Here's an update, hands, no matter what medium are hard hah. I'll definitely have to study them a bit more in both mediums.
Little paint over for you, hope this is helpful
Otherwise very good progress the topology in the hand itself isn't too far off (could of merges here and there)
And here is a little something, did a quick texture work on bobo_the_seal's SDK head
It was quite interesting just painting straight on the UV map (as that's what I'm used to hah, but I saw texture projection? and other nifty tools for a more precise way of getting textures on a model... I'll have to look those up later once I actually have something to texture. Cheers!
Yes bask in all that evidently mirrored texture seam! bahahaha
Textures are looking real nice! just fix that seam xD!
As far as accuracy is concerned i like to paint on the base colours/rough textures in 3D coat/Mudbox onto the model to get everthing in the right places and then go into PS to do all the tricky details/image overlays. Some people like to do it that way, some do it all in PS and some do it all with polypainting (straight onto 3D model) its all down to what you feel comfortable with.
Either way, wont take you long to pick everything up! looking forward to see what else you do with that model/new ones
I still have a long way to go, but I learnt quite a bit doing this fellow (after I texture him I'll start another character soon as I want to apply the things I learnt onto the next) I figured I'd not worry too much about the mistakes on the previous works as the main thing to do is create and learn.
See if you can get the fingers modeled. we used to be able to get away with the mitten look but not anymore :P
I'll certainly get those fingers in on the next model. But I did practice modeling some a few days ago.
Texture work! It's been ages since I textured anything, and my old school ways of texturing aren't going to cut it if I want to try a more next-gen character.
Diffuse only
Though texture projection is loads of fun! Makes things so much easier!
Wow I'm tired hah. Stayed up till 5am texturing this guy. It was definitely fun and I learnt a lot. Mainly that I tend to use more cuts than I need to which in turn causes so much problems in the later run when I am working on more complex things such as the hand or hands. (Too many vertices to push around). I also started using a bit of strip modelling which is really helpful when it comes to more complex shapes rather than using the box method. And above all, just have a small concept to work with since I spent so much time arguing with myself on how the head should look or how the textures/materials would interact with each other.
This is model just has a simple diffuse texture. I'm excited to start learning more of the "next-gen" workflow with normals, specs and all that. A first of many
(org. 1024x1024)
They don't need to be perfectly flat from a side view, but the less curve the more friendly. Of coarse if your character were to be naked it wouldn't matter as much, but the shirt and trousers on your guy seem to wobble along the hip so flatter loops will help with clothed models.
Also! Modeled definition between vest and person, the vest looks like a heavy duty so it looks too thick to be well defined in texture alone. Same goes for gloves and especially the shoes.
Also look up "low poly joints" on google, there should be a link to a post on these forums. It explains that at joints like elbows and knees, loops alone won't suffice, as they will collapse in on themselves.
Anatomically all looks basic, more definition to the butt and the upper back seems appropriate, not loads, just enough to show a back curve.
The neck is flatter at the back and the head should be slouched in front of the body to a degree that the back of the head does not fall behind the nick so much.
Shoulders need to be raised and pulled back a tiny bit.
All in all you have made a good start, what I mentioned above are things that your bound to learn while experimenting anyway.
Good luck, and welcome to the 3D art world,
Thanks for reading,
Bombshell
Eitherway, good progress from your first model, keep it up!
gilesruscoe: I'm glad you called on me for that. I, for one, didn't really have a direction for that character like I mentioned above. I just saw a box and just slapped textures on what I thought would make for interest. Downs of just concepting on the go. But I'll get something more hand-painted in soon. I've been learning the sculpting tools in blender and how to bake normals from high poly to low poly.
Head sculpt using Talon head mesh.
This is just taken from the viewport of Blender. I love,love,love setting up lights.
I now just need to find answer how to use custom brushes or alphas now in Blender. I try to import new textures in but nothing happens
Now just keep doing studies and eventually maybe something more long form once you feel really comfortable sculpting.
Dogzer: Haha cheers mate! Hopefully it works out
Bonebrew22: Cheers! I'm kind of drawn in by the beauty of rendering so I've been reading a lot of tutorials on SSS shaders and nodes. I'll definitely figure out that I can commit too.
and just to comment on your latest post its looking good, I can't quite figure whats wrong with it but given the textures or even a cut up of them it might become obvious.
The way it looks is that points under the cheek and nose are generating their own light... which is very odd.
I used Talons base mesh for this. Quick sculpt.. and rendering with shaders again. I'm getting spellbound by them.
Mainly now I'm just practicing a workflow from sculpting, baking normals, applying that to low-poly base mesh. ( I still find a few errors baking the nomals as I keep forgetting to select them in order to which the active bakes onto the proper UV)
Sculpting is still something I need to play around with more to understand what the best approach is when going up in stages.
No proper diffuse, just a normal with a tinted material.
Doing that will teach you a basic character modelling pipeline and how to optimise geometry/texture space. Once you've got the basic pipeline down, you can start adding things like hard surface modelling/sculpting, retopo and baking etc.
Keep on going!
I've been using other peoples base meshes so I figured I'd start creating my own.
What I have planned is:
-Male Body
-Female Body
-Bust
When creating a base-mesh it is optimal to have all quads right? As triangles can lead into problematic waters when it comes to sculpting?
However I've been learning a bit about poly- modeling and embarked on the narcissistic journey or immortalizing my Olympian face into 3d. That way I can only insult myself haha.
There is still a lot that needs to be done and I've been following a tutorial which has helped me greatly. Once I finish this head via the tutorial I'll start another one without the aid and see what sunk in.
This one is kicking my ass since I started with such a little plane and I started splicing a little too much that it is getting a little hard to work with.
Note: Start broad and general then get tiny and detailed.
the eyes and nose are 2 things I get stuck on very often when modelling, its only recently I've been able to get a good shape for a lower poly count, it seems you've got the nose down pretty well.
around the mouth and jaw I see some shape issues, its kind of lumpy and looking at some of your edges their a bit wavy, it may be amateur of me but I would use blenders vert smooth on the lines, I assume your using blender from he GUI (use alt + right click to select "loops" which can also be lines of edges) I would them re-proportionate them in areas to maintain volume and shape. Its easier than manually selecting and moving every vert.
I see a lot of improvement since your first post til now. This last face is developing really well. Congrats! I didn't see you using image planes in any moment, but as your strongest ability is drawing, I believe using them will give much more control and better results over your models.
As you are using Blender, why don't you try sculpting a bit too? The Blender sculpt tools are pretty decent, and are worthy to try.
Keep it up, my friend, I'll keep an eye on your thread!
If you want to reshape a lot of vertices at once, you can use Blender soft selection. Hit "o" on keyboard, this let you use it. For more info, please take a look on Blender documentation:
http://download.blender.org/documentation/NaN_docs/Manual2.0/Pet.1.html
jramauri: Thanks! I used a bit of sculpting, but I definitely will dive deeper into that when I have a few meshes of my own to tamper with. And that O function is tads awesome. Reminds me of the liquify tool on photoshop. As for the reference images I do use them, but I tend to only follow them on key moments since it gets a little tiresome try to line everything up and it is hard getting exact positions. I model the key parts and then go on from what I think is right.
Update: Nearly nearly scrapped this since it is getting a little hard to work on, but I'm going to motor through this one and start the next.. well maybe if I like this I'l throw some textures onto it
I know about that, I meant some of the verts seemed a bit off making the lines of edges squiggle at points, I was suggesting a simple way of realigning verts rather than manually moving each out of place vert.
the scalp needs to be more round like so http://cdn.buzznet.com/media/jj1/2006/03/antm_cycle_6/tyra-banks-bald-head.jpg
it also in some cases has a slightly squarer shape.
The necks loops are really out of place and messed up, the back of the neck goes flatter than the back of the head and the shape is much sharper on the skull than you've shown.
http://www.empowher.com/files/ebsco/images/neck_muscles.jpg
EDIT: sorry for double post *face palm*
Try heading over to the polycount wiki page for facial topology, it has a bunch of lovely reference.